Thaksin Allies In Thai Election Landslide: Exit Polls

[kmj]

It's not a landslide. The exit-polls are inheritable flawed.

Exit polls are rarely wrong though. So now we have to question is the vote count being tampered with?

How could these exit polls be wrong? The ex told me when she and her sisters/granny voted today they were asked when leaving who they voted for by nice uni kids with clipboards, Standing next to the kids were "friends" of the folks who had handed out envelopes of cash a few minutes before, listening and watching what was written down. What were they going to say - they voted for the other party? She also said there were "helpers" who were showing people how to mark their ballots.

Wow 'ex sisters/granny' report why do I bother reading the press...

[TAWP]

It's not a landslide. The exit-polls are inheritable flawed.

Exit polls are rarely wrong though. So now we have to question is the vote count being tampered with?

How could these exit polls be wrong? The ex told me when she and her sisters/granny voted today they were asked when leaving who they voted for by nice uni kids with clipboards, Standing next to the kids were "friends" of the folks who had handed out envelopes of cash a few minutes before, listening and watching what was written down. What were they going to say - they voted for the other party? She also said there were "helpers" who were showing people how to mark their ballots.

Thank you for highlighting the reason exit-polls in some locations are very unreliable.

[Throatwobbler]

Democracy is such a dumb idea.

"...democracy is the worst form of government -- except all the others..."

Churchill

How about no government? Anarcho capitalism. Just people in a society based on the voluntary trade of private property and services in order to maximize individual liberty and prosperity.

Churchill was a German hating warmonger only happy when at war. Churchill helped bring about the first world war which was won by the wrong side due to the interference from America. The result destoyed the monarchies in Germany and Austro-Hungary and fermented the revolution in Russia bringing to power the bolsheviks and Stalin. The reparations enforced on Germany gave Germany hyper inflation and hence Hitler and the second world war. At least 16 million dead in WW1 not including German women and children deliberately starved to death by the Allies and 70 million dead in WW2. So forgive me if I think Churcill was no hero and wrong about most things and I say this as Brit. It is just that I have read a great deal and got further than the brainwashing given to me at school and in the media.

Churchill caused the depression of the twenties in the UK and certainly helped cause The Great Depression in the USA with his insane decision to return to the gold standard at the pre WW1 rate.

Remember governments bring us war not the people.

Are you serious?

[MrChangers]

All I know is that I need a beer

That will take another 4 hours.

Think positive, check your watch, only 3h18m

PS I'm having mine at home at the moment

Good news boys my shop has nearly sold out, better news managed to save a couple for the horng. Happy days today

[MrJohnson]

Just another roll in the cycle.

'Democracy is dead in Thailand'...........when was it ever alive...its always been on life support

'More corrupotion and theft from the Thai people'............most politicians, not all, are corrupt in this country......even the Democrats....sorry about thatbut it is true

'It's not unprecedented for noxious dictators to be "elected" and then that's the LAST real election. That isn't democracy either, now is it?

But what percentage of Thais have the slightest awareness of the history of OTHER countries, not to mention their own? '

'Thaksin is the elite. And now expect Thailand to be under his one family rule for decades. North Korea, Thai style. Be afraid.' Classic quote I must say. Dommsayers of the world unite! BTW - maybe just swapping one family domination for another. Just maybe. It has to happen eventually. I mean, this is what this is really all about. Oops, elephant in the living room.

[britmaveric]

Congrats to Yingluck, Thailand's first Lady PM!! Wish her the best and hope she helps bring thailand out from the dark cloud its been in since the last coup.

[MegaMik]

Scary to see all the ignorants here that are not aware of the danger a 0ne-party state represents.

You think the country is in danger because of the landslide victory for one party?

It also seems like you have missed the last 5 years when the military and courts stepped in to change the results and sitting government.

This is Thailand, I'm a farrang and I live here, but it doesn't mean I can push my political view down the That's throat.

There won't be much changes for us farrangs, maybe easier to get a visa, or the opposite but in all, bussiness as usual.

For Thai's, this win is a lot more important statement to both the sitting government and the military leaders. But this is again Thailand.

The only country I know where people pretend to be a unity, but don't even talk to other Thai's about important things, so how can they have the same opinion when they don't discuss anything apart from food, sex and money.

[Deeral]

A quick look at the few of the posts on this thread seems to indicate that despite living in thailand for years or even decades, most of the posters don't have a clue about what's going on in Thai politics.

Most of the views expressed here aren't the result of looking at the issues and causes but purely nape of the neck predictions of doom by those who are vehemently opposed to "thaksin" - not that they really have a clue who or what it's all about.

this result or similar has been quite predictable for months now - in fact years yet somehow many posters still cling to the idea that it is to be deplored.

Whether you like the Redshirt/Thaksin alliance side of Thai politics or not, you can't escape the fact that despite all their efforts, Abhisit and co. have been unable to budge the Thai majority that the opposition have always had - the fact is that they may not only have failed to reduce it but caused it to increase.

Whereas I'm sure that TV and it's followers will be regretting the position they have taken over the past couple of years, the fact remains that if they DO form a government they will have been elected as near as possible by democratic means, which might be a step in the right direction.

the next step - in the next 5 years will be to elect a skilled and competent government that will bring about permanent changes to allow democracy to take roots properly.

Any other "interference" will simply mean that Thailand continues to chase its democratic tail in ever decreasing circles.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Deeral

[Babcock]

Ha ha

Great result as expected. The "red terrorists" seem to have won for the majority and not the expAts propping up the bars with nowt to drink.

[Throatwobbler]

I haven't been living in Thailand for a very long time so I don't actually have an idea how the life looked in here for an average farang when the former PM called the shots. If someone could answer my question I'd much appreciate. And the question of the day (for me at least) is: How will this affect the life of an average expat living here in Thailand?

cheers

mchristo

The IMF will get the boots again. In generall it will depend on ones character and not so much on money. Locals will be doing better and therefore the society will be less depending on foreigners living here. Otherwise it will not affect your living standards. Sure for many it will be a challange.

Thank you for such a swift answer.

mchristo

I have to disagree with Elecent. If the policies are implemented we will soon be looking at huge inflation. Thailand will no longer be the cheapish option that people love.

As for the Thais well they will be screwed. Huge amounts of jobs will be cut and the poor will be really screwed.

[animatic]

Decembers High Season Is SHOT, yet again.

Unless the army steps in, red shirts terrorizing Bangkok or Yellow shirts occupying the Airport, I don't think one needs to worry about the high season.

yes they do but im not worried I have little financial interest in tourists. I suspect a lot of tourists used to go to Zimababwie and Libya. Who cares if thais want a load of red thugs to control government and country let them have what they want. Of course many are hoping for the best andI also hope for best but im realistic and writing was on wall when red thugs tried to burn Bangkok. Now it looks like they will be the government. In some countries terrorists and thugs like that are passed over for more rational men to take over. This has happened in Northern Ireland, South Africa and a few other places. Taksin is not a Mandela or Gangdi although some of his forang and red supporters seem to think so. Logic therefore says it will not end in any good way and as ive said if you can do as im doing and get your assets out of you can while hoping what your seeing on the wall is just an illusion and you where silly to believe Taksin is anytihng but good for this country. Their is a small chance he has had enough and will quietly retire but I would not want to put my family's future on that given he is even now even before official results the one giving interviews and comments and not his clone. Mie Penrie in all right jack as is Taksin and rest.

Well I know of at least 6 business that have been hanging on waiting to see which way this goes.

I believe the owners will now join the earlier exodus caused by last Springs riots.

To say High Season is shot is looking forward to what is likely to be the assorted moves of various parties, between now and Dec 15th, based on historical precedent. Most all business ventures do this for their own survival, it's great if you are not in any way tourist driven, for many that is not the case. If Thaksin actually retires then maybe things will stay calm, but that doesn't fit his historical patterns in or out of office. You may call it silly, but it's deadly serious for most.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Wow.

> And is their decision actually going to bring any stability?

Since when is "stability" the highest good? The only way to change things for the better for the ordinary Thais (rural poor) is huge, most likely violent disruption. Of course it probably won't happen, but that's what they need.

> i don't give a sh*t who's in power, just don't start protesting again and kill tourism.

Typical selfish POV.

> their are better places in the world for investments. That are far more Farang friendly

IMO anyone investing anything here they'd suffer from losing is an idiot. Felt that way 15 years ago and now feel so much more so. Talking about individual entrepreneurs, big multinational's a whole 'nother story, but then they'd be looking for much more stability than we're looking at for the near future.

> "A majority of Votes" is NOT the ONLY criteria for a democracy If it was, then China and North Korea and Burma are also democracies!!! Until people Learn the difference there will NEVER be a REAL Democracy here in Thailand.

As an American, I wish we had a "real" democracy. Maybe in some European countries. . .

> Certainly to make life harder for farang to stay and/or live in Thailand.

We're just not important, face it and stop whinging.

> Think Singapore. Scary? Only not too long ago, we have anti T supporters pointing to Singapore as a shining example. This is much more a one-party state and definite family dynasty

I think the average Thai would be overcome with joy if there were any prospect of having such a clean and effective form of government, f&^k democracy!

> Everybody has equal access to education and information nowadays over the internet. They do not have to be from a rich family and getting everything for granted through their background.

What a crock, the rural poor can't afford Internet access at all, and don't have the fundamentals in early years education, many many families have to choose which of the kids keeps going past 10-12 because they can't afford the few hundred baht per week for each kid to continue, or maybe child labor's required to put food on the table - lots of families.

Just growing up in an urban area automatically puts a kid in the top 20% of the population economically, and 10 baht per hour for an Internet cafe's out of reach of even lots of those.

So get real. . .

> Why would they vote in a corupt figure after he has been ousted

Because if there ever were any non-corrupt person entering politics in Thailand s/he would be completely ineffective. There's no such possibility, so they have to choose what they think is best for their future ACCEPTING THE REALITY of endemic corruption.

> A new era is about to open with hi so people forced to share

The rural poor will only get the little scraps that fall off the table. Perhaps under the reds it's actually a little bowl of slightly better scraps, but never any amount the true owners of the means of production would actually ever notice.

[Anonymous2012]

Shows how out of touch the Thai Visa news section regulars are with the opinions of the majority of Thai people IMO.

Great day for Thailand - putting the military and elite firmly in their places once and for all.

You are very naive if you think that this result will change things.

Why people insist in voting, still mesmerises me. Red vs Yellow, Democrats vs Republicans, etc... comes back to choosing between snakes and sharks. By voting people validate a system that exploits them and strip the earth from its resources. War, famine, unemployment, financial crisis, destruction of the habitat... If voting created a better world, surely we'd know it by now.

The concept of one man; one vote is great, but the game is rigged because you don't get to choose the people you vote for. You choose what the elite thinks is best for you . Elections give people the illusion of being in control of their fate. They aren't. They belong to a Master.

I dream of a world where people can make decisions of their own, instead of following leaders like a herd would follow a shepherd. You don't need a corrupt representation. If you want to attain true democracy through votes, let Internet do the job for you through referendum. Important issues (gathered on the FAQ principles) can be submitted to users who can vote online. One man; One vote. When this day will come...I will vote again!

[MrJohnson]

Very strange to see how Farangs, outside their home country are narrow-minded and against democracy.

The results are what they are. No need to cry, lament or cheer. Just accept.

It's not unprecedented for noxious dictators to be "elected" and then that's the LAST real election. That isn't democracy either, now is it?

But what percentage of Thais have the slightest awareness of the history of OTHER countries, not to mention their own?

Is that a rhetorical question? I suspect so. I love a bit of condescension, don't you? Sorry , that was rhetorical. A knowledge of history is always useful but not everything can be learned from it. Actually I think Thailand is possibly at a 'first time' point in its history. The Thais have to find their 'own way'....their 'own' version of democarcy. I'm sure it isn't what the Greeks had in mind....but hey...that was several thousand years ago and maybe the idea has evolved somewhat. The sun will rise tomorrow and a new day will dawn. Certainly a new dawn for Thailand. Come on guys,, it can't be any worse than the last five years. Good night. Sweet dreams.

[kmj]

55555 where have you all gone? packing your bags already ?

[rametindallas]

Only good thing coming out of all this is going to be that their dreams will soon turn in nightmares for a lot of people and that is when hopefully they will realized what kind of mistake they made voting for them....

It will be too late. Total power will be solidified. Democracy is DEAD in Thailand, starting today.

+1

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Only good thing coming out of all this is going to be that their dreams will soon turn in nightmares for a lot of people and that is when hopefully they will realized what kind of mistake they made voting for them....

It will be too late. Total power will be solidified. Democracy is DEAD in Thailand, starting today.

+1

-313

[rubl]

Only good thing coming out of all this is going to be that their dreams will soon turn in nightmares for a lot of people and that is when hopefully they will realized what kind of mistake they made voting for them....

It will be too late. Total power will be solidified. Democracy is DEAD in Thailand, starting today.

+1

-313

+254?

[pkspeaker]

I don't see what the big deal is that phuathai won again.. we all lived under TRT/phuathai governments for years and i never noticed my life change, or that thailand was really any different between abhisit or phuathai..

i see jingthings posts like there's gonna be this doomsday because this pleasant/attractive/ intelligent young woman(by polititian standards) is going to be the PM.. it's ridiculous, i read an article in the bangkok post-the policies of phuathai/democrat arn't that much different..

my predictions:

1. Yingluck will not bring thaksin back, the previous phuathai government could not bring him back, why would she? Why would she want to bring someone back if he's gonna take her job? once she's the boss it will all be about her.. if thaksin comes back to thailand he has to go strait to jail and yingluck cannot stop that even if she wanted to, in thailand the PM does not have the power to issue a pardon like the american president can. you know she's not bringing him back because during the campaign she said that wouldn't be her top priority-in other words-he's not coming back.

2. there will not be a coup to oust Yingluck.

3. PAD has imploded and there will not be another airport or government house takeover anytime soon.

[bangkokrick]

Go reds!

And I just gotta say, all the crying in this thread is giving me many good laughs.

Thailand has spoken. Live with it or move elsewhere.

Well said ! No doubt all the yellow shirt / PAD / Democrat / right wing loonies on here will be complaining about vote buying, but I'm happy to report in our village, that there seems to be no such thing. We've talked to lots of folks today, and while it MAY be true elsewhere, it didn't happen here. Perhaps all those who make anti-red posts in their thousands, will finally realise that they are completely wasting their time - most people on here DON'T have a vote. :D

Got to say all my inlaws are happy with the landslide win for Yingluck .

I bet there are a lot of democrat, yellowshirt followers on thei forum are now hopping around with one foot in their mouths.

Good on the new Prime Minister, Yingluck.

I think that people are genuinely worried about the new Prime Minister having absolutely no political credentials and no political experience and then is expected to lead the country. Albeit with the assistance of her brother, This situation could be compared with Cory Aquina the 'House wife President' That did not work out too well in the end.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

> + 254

Oh oh.

Before this gets silly, let me state again that as Thai Democracy was never alive, it can't die.

We saw this in September 2006, when the military had VERY little trouble staging a coup. They can pull that trigger at any time, when elected government doesn't cooperate with the true powers-that-be. Sure they get to handle the day-to-day and present an elected government to the world. But that's where it ends. I don't have much faith in Ms. Yingluck successfully handling the generals and whoever the generals do take orders from.

Edited July 3, 2011 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Netfan]

55555 where have you all gone? packing your bags already ?

Why would anyone pack their bags? You've convinced me - Thailand will now be a paradise! Thaksin will solve every problem there is! No more drug problem. Education will suddenly improve. No more poverty by 2020. i'm stickin' around for all the fun

[toybits]

The people have spoken.

We are not the people and our opinion has no relevance.

Respect the voice of the people. Or are we just hypocrites?

[Nisa]

Thaksin will have to come back. He will find very quickly that he cannot run the country without being here.

[swerver]

Shows how out of touch the Thai Visa news section regulars are with the opinions of the majority of Thai people IMO.

Great day for Thailand - putting the military and elite firmly in their places once and for all.

It also shows how fundamentally different Asian and Western cultures and values are. This is something that a lot of farang posters overlook. You may be married to a Thai. You may have been living here for 20 years. But still, you grew up in a completely different society, with different morals, values and ethics. What's right for the goose may not be right for the gander. You may treat this country as your home. The Thais may treat you as one of them. But, you are and will always be a foreigner and trying to force your values and ethics down the Thai people's throat will merely make them resent you more.

As you say: "It also shows how fundamentally different ...."

The Thai Horizontal Compartmentalized Behavior /

Every individual Thai operates in roughly three different "circles".

The family circle (1)

A Thai's innermost circle is her/his immediate family. In this Family Circle, the individual is closely intertwined with the fortunes of the other family members. There are, ranks within this "first circle" as well as guidelines about mutual rights, duties and respects; but there is also a degree of informality and a free flow of communication.

Blood is thicker than water. Compared to the West, in Thailand it seems to be even thicker. Grandparents often live with their grandchildren in three-generation households. Aunts and Uncles are often called on to help in those no-questions-asked family complications. Family members are more forgiving for certain offenses than non-family members are, or the law for that matter.

The cautious circle (2)

Members of the family circle may forgive for transgressions and mistakes. Members of the cautious circle may not be so forgiving.

The second circle comprises of people with whom the Thai interacts on a frequent but more "official" basis: her/his work colleagues, doctor, teachers, tailor, even a regular market woman. It is in this circle where behavior tends to be "proper" Thai behavior - courteous, cautious, deferential, friendly, but somewhat formal. The reason for the high standard of manners in the Cautious Circle is the fact that the Thai depends on these associations regularly, for day-to-day survival. In addition, s/he expects to rely on these associations for perhaps years to come. Because of the frequency of contact, each side in these relationships has a certain continuing sanction or leverage on the other. Each side wants to keep the relationship functioning smoothly for the good of both. The existence of this personal, face-to-face leverage - social control really - maintains the standard of behavior.

The elements, which make up this "standard of behavior", are directly relevant to the foreigner who operates most of the time in this Cautious Circle, namely the Thai work place. But, being allowed in the Cautious Circle will only last as long as the Thai can see benefit(s) accruing from accepting an outsider in the Cautious Circle, the moment there are no more benefits to be reaped the outsider reverts to a persona non grata. All of this of course accompanied by the Thai Smile.

The selfish circle (3)

The Selfish Circle is the outside world, where there is a completely different standard of behavior, a type of behavior that at times even would shock animals, if they had the ability to analyze it.

In the Selfish Circle, anybody's standing in the community does not get any recognition; nobody seems to notice or care. It is the place where you can hear Thai street boys call, "Hey you", were foreigners are grossly overcharged, where the place at the queue is brusquely usurped, where the government clerk treats people with disdain. In the Selfish Circle, rather than in the other two circles, you also see most of the littering, spitting, loud talking, bumping into oneanother, and any other "selfish" behavior.

What these Selfish Circle situations share is that they are one-time-only contacts, in which each individual feels little ability to influence others. There is no leverage. In this Selfish Circle each Thai regard her/himself anonymous, meaning nobody will recognize her/him as anyone special, and s/he cannot readily induce others to treat her/him courteously. Other countries also have circles of behavior where citizens switch their roles and behavior as they move from one circle to another. However, the relevant point is that Thais behave as wild animals in their Selfish Circle compared to people in countries where the primary school system has trained them to be citizens of the country to live in a society.

Why the abrasiveness and other serious behavior problems found in the Selfish Circle? The main problem is the Thai ROTE learning education system, which has never bothered to prepare children to become adult citizen when they grow up. The influx of migrant workers from up-country who know little about city life and the requirements of mass living is the cause of the problems. Migrant workers and also lots of long time residents of the cities do not see the cumulative effects of one plastic bag, tossed out into the street or canal by many people. Governments of countries in the world that have an organized society impose and enforce heavy fines for littering. In order to solve problems with bus crowds, cities like Hong Kong, Singapore just to name a couple, installed stiles for pedestrians years ago to channel them into orderly queues at bus stops. In Thai Cities laws against littering were never well enforced, and have by now practically become unenforceable.

A major reason for the contrast between behavior evident in circle 2 and 3 is found in the "collectivist" nature of the Thai way of living. The survival of a person within a collective country is strongly related to the allegiance one shows to his own group, without paying much attention to the people outside it.

Harry C. Triandis, psychologist and leading scholar on the difference between individualistic and collectivist way of living: Collectivist way of living put high value on self-discipline, accepting one's position in life honoring parents and elders, and preserving one's public image for the sake of the group. While collectivists are very nice to those who are members of their own group, they can be very nasty, competitive and uncooperative toward those who are not. There is an unquestioned obedience in one's own group and even willingness to fight and die for it, and a distrust of those in other groups.

Dr. Geert Hofstede, engineer and industrial psychologist. Dimensions of direct relevance to use are the Collectivist-Individualist Dimensions and the Power Distance Dimension. It is of these two important dimensions where Thais, in general, differ quite markedly from those of many Western countries, and even from those of some other Asian countries. Thais rank high in the dimension known as Power Distance, or "the extend to which a group accepts the fact that power in institutions and organizations is distributed unequally." Thais also rank very high in the dimension know as Collectivism, which is "characterized by a tight social framework in which people distinguish between in-groups and out-groups."

The Thai's way of placing her/himself in the Cautious Circle as often as possible, for in this circle s/he usually gets treated with the dignity s/he craves for. The Thai accomplishes this through her/his clothing, demeanor, and appropriate usage of language or a dignified look in order to remind others that s/he is not to be taken lightly.

Thinking of penetrating the Family Circle as a Farang by marrying a Thai? Better think again, you may think you are part of the Family Circle, but all you are doing is float around in the Cautious Circle for as long as the Thai has an use for the Farang through the so well used by the Thais:

kreng jai

refers to an attitude whereby an individual tries to restrain her/his own interest or desires, in situations where there is the potential for discomfort or conflict, and where there is a need to maintain a pleasant and cooperative relationship.

1. Complying with other's wishes or requests;

2. Reluctance to disturb or interrupt others;

3. Restraint of one's show of displeasure or anger so as not to cause discomfort to others;

4. Avoidance of asserting one's opinions or needs;

5. Reluctante to give instructions or pass orders to a supervisor, or to peers with more age or experience;

6. Reluctance to evaluate a colleague's or supervisor's performance;

7. Avoiding to ask questions when one has not understood someone;

8. Reluctance to ask questions when one has not understood someone.

Then there is kreng jai towards juniors.

kreng jai in Government is a good example why corruption will never be eliminated and the government never will operate efficiently as long as the Thais stick with their antiquated behavior.

Investigating government officials on charges of corruption. When a relative of the accused learns one member of the investigating committee is also a relative, the investigation slows down or comes to a halt. In one such case, some of the suspected officials were of very high rank. A department regulation required that the probing committee must consist of "members of a higher or similar rank and the ministry had no officials of such rank." Thus, the investigation could not even get off the ground.At high levels of government, kreng jai makes it difficult for a bright subordinate to contradict a director-general or minister on crucial matters of policy.

There is more

hai kiad

A motivating value, which every Thai seeks, is known as kiad - honor and respect. With the addition of the word hai, the value known as hai kiad means "to give respect or show honor". On the surface, this quality might seem no different from its Western counterpart. However, the expression of that respect is different in emphasis and style.

wai

The junior is obligated to show respect to the senior. This respect is through the wai, where the hands are brought together sort of prayer position at chest level or mouth level, accompanied by a slight bow.

All of this may look like part of the exciting Orient, but it does not fit in any longer with the fast moving high-tech world of today. It worked OK in the days of the Bullock cart, but it does not any longer in the days of the behemoth 18 and 22-wheelers. It also put at odds the litany of:

· Thais are so polite;

· What a friendly people they are;

· You always see them smiling;

· You will not find a more considered people.

Thais were such charming people when living in their villages in the mid-20^th century. However, since then havoc has been created in their lives by turning them loose in to a fast moving world for which they never were properly educated. To the extend that it has now become, no not a society, but a grouping of people which shows total contempt for the Laws, law enforcement organizations, and living in a large interacting society.

Edited July 3, 2011 by swerver

[janverbeem]

55555 where have you all gone? packing your bags already ?

Why would anyone pack their bags? You've convinced me - Thailand will now be a paradise! Thaksin will solve every problem there is! No more drug problem. Education will suddenly improve. No more poverty by 2020. i'm stickin' around for all the fun

Maybe foreigners will soon also get social security payments, similar to Thai's in our homecountry's

[Babcock]

It's looking like a landslide. Thais we know who have never voted for thaksin all say the same thing abhisit never did anything. All talk. To see the pathetic turnouts for the democrats, numbers exaggerated by bp, against the hordes for yingluk has sent a message the people see through the propaganda from the government and army media. Just today seeing the aftermath of the attacks of those black shirts on the poor "squatters" sent a strong message how the poor are downtrodden by those with the muscle. The thai mafias.

[MrChangers]

Decembers High Season Is SHOT, yet again.

Unless the army steps in, red shirts terrorizing Bangkok or Yellow shirts occupying the Airport, I don't think one needs to worry about the high season.

yes they do but im not worried I have little financial interest in tourists. I suspect a lot of tourists used to go to Zimababwie and Libya. Who cares if thais want a load of red thugs to control government and country let them have what they want. Of course many are hoping for the best andI also hope for best but im realistic and writing was on wall when red thugs tried to burn Bangkok. Now it looks like they will be the government. In some countries terrorists and thugs like that are passed over for more rational men to take over. This has happened in Northern Ireland, South Africa and a few other places. Taksin is not a Mandela or Gangdi although some of his forang and red supporters seem to think so. Logic therefore says it will not end in any good way and as ive said if you can do as im doing and get your assets out of you can while hoping what your seeing on the wall is just an illusion and you where silly to believe Taksin is anytihng but good for this country. Their is a small chance he has had enough and will quietly retire but I would not want to put my family's future on that given he is even now even before official results the one giving interviews and comments and not his clone. Mie Penrie in all right jack as is Taksin and rest.

Well I know of at least 6 business that have been hanging on waiting to see which way this goes.

I believe the owners will now join the earlier exodus caused by last Springs riots.

To say High Season is shot is looking forward to what is likely to be the assorted moves of various parties, between now and Dec 15th, based on historical precedent. Most all business ventures do this for their own survival, it's great if you are not in any way tourist driven, for many that is not the case. If Thaksin actually retires then maybe things will stay calm, but that doesn't fit his historical patterns in or out of office. You may call it silly, but it's deadly serious for most.

Don't know where you are but over the last few years Chiang Mai has been off the TOT radar to punish them for being Mr Thaskins home town. Remember the Govt sponsors the TOT.

I have a lot of happy Thai's here at the moment and after all it is their country. How would you feel if a load of foreigners criticised you celebrating your parties win back in your home country?

Edited July 3, 2011 by MrChangers

[MrJohnson]

Shows how out of touch the Thai Visa news section regulars are with the opinions of the majority of Thai people IMO.

Great day for Thailand - putting the military and elite firmly in their places once and for all.

It also shows how fundamentally different Asian and Western cultures and values are. This is something that a lot of farang posters overlook. You may be married to a Thai. You may have been living here for 20 years. But still, you grew up in a completely different society, with different morals, values and ethics. What's right for the goose may not be right for the gander. You may treat this country as your home. The Thais may treat you as one of them. But, you are and will always be a foreigner and trying to force your values and ethics down the Thai people's throat will merely make them resent you more.

As you say: "It also shows how fundamentally different ...."

The Thai Horizontal Compartmentalized Behavior / Living

Every individual Thai operates in roughly three different "circles".

The family circle (1)

A Thai's innermost circle is her/his immediate family. In this Family Circle, the individual is closely intertwined with the fortunes of the other family members. There are, ranks within this "first circle" as well as guidelines about mutual rights, duties and respects; but there is also a degree of informality and a free flow of communication.

Blood is thicker than water. Compared to the West, in Thailand it seems to be even thicker. Grandparents often live with their grandchildren in three-generation households. Aunts and Uncles are often called on to help in those no-questions-asked family complications. Family members are more forgiving for certain offenses than non-family members are, or the law for that matter.

The cautious circle (2)

Members of the family circle may forgive for transgressions and mistakes. Members of the cautious circle may not be so forgiving.

The second circle comprises of people with whom the Thai interacts on a frequent but more "official" basis: her/his work colleagues, doctor, teachers, tailor, even a regular market woman. It is in this circle where behavior tends to be "proper" Thai behavior - courteous, cautious, deferential, friendly, but somewhat formal. The reason for the high standard of manners in the Cautious Circle is the fact that the Thai depends on these associations regularly, for day-to-day survival. In addition, s/he expects to rely on these associations for perhaps years to come. Because of the frequency of contact, each side in these relationships has a certain continuing sanction or leverage on the other. Each side wants to keep the relationship functioning smoothly for the good of both. The existence of this personal, face-to-face leverage - social control really - maintains the standard of behavior.

The elements, which make up this "standard of behavior", are directly relevant to the foreigner who operates most of the time in this Cautious Circle, namely the Thai work place. But, being allowed in the Cautious Circle will only last as long as the Thai can see benefit(s) accruing from accepting an outsider in the Cautious Circle, the moment there are no more benefits to be reaped the outsider reverts to a persona non grata. All of this of course accompanied by the Thai Smile.

The selfish circle (3)

The Selfish Circle is the outside world, where there is a completely different standard of behavior, a type of behavior that at times even would shock animals, if they had the ability to analyze it.

In the Selfish Circle, anybody's standing in the community does not get any recognition; nobody seems to notice or care. It is the place where you can hear Thai street boys call, "Hey you", were foreigners are grossly overcharged, where the place at the queue is brusquely usurped, where the government clerk treats people with disdain. In the Selfish Circle, rather than in the other two circles, you also see most of the littering, spitting, loud talking, bumping into oneanother, and any other "selfish" behavior.

What these Selfish Circle situations share is that they are one-time-only contacts, in which each individual feels little ability to influence others. There is no leverage. In this Selfish Circle each Thai regard her/himself anonymous, meaning nobody will recognize her/him as anyone special, and s/he cannot readily induce others to treat her/him courteously. Other countries also have circles of behavior where citizens switch their roles and behavior as they move from one circle to another. However, the relevant point is that Thais behave as wild animals in their Selfish Circle compared to people in countries where the primary school system has trained them to be citizens of the country to live in a society.

Why the abrasiveness and other serious behavior problems found in the Selfish Circle? The main problem is the Thai ROTE learning education system, which has never bothered to prepare children to become adult citizen when they grow up. The influx of migrant workers from up-country who know little about city life and the requirements of mass living is the cause of the problems. Migrant workers and also lots of long time residents of the cities do not see the cumulative effects of one plastic bag, tossed out into the street or canal by many people. Governments of countries in the world that have an organized society impose and enforce heavy fines for littering. In order to solve problems with bus crowds, cities like Hong Kong, Singapore just to name a couple, installed stiles for pedestrians years ago to channel them into orderly queues at bus stops. In Thai Cities laws against littering were never well enforced, and have by now practically become unenforceable.

A major reason for the contrast between behavior evident in circle 2 and 3 is found in the "collectivist" nature of the Thai way of living. The survival of a person within a collective country is strongly related to the allegiance one shows to his own group, without paying much attention to the people outside it.

Harry C. Triandis, psychologist and leading scholar on the difference between individualistic and collectivist way of living: Collectivist way of living put high value on self-discipline, accepting one's position in life honoring parents and elders, and preserving one's public image for the sake of the group. While collectivists are very nice to those who are members of their own group, they can be very nasty, competitive and uncooperative toward those who are not. There is an unquestioned obedience in one's own group and even willingness to fight and die for it, and a distrust of those in other groups.

Dr. Geert Hofstede, engineer and industrial psychologist. Dimensions of direct relevance to use are the Collectivist-Individualist Dimensions and the Power Distance Dimension. It is of these two important dimensions where Thais, in general, differ quite markedly from those of many Western countries, and even from those of some other Asian countries. Thais rank high in the dimension known as Power Distance, or "the extend to which a group accepts the fact that power in institutions and organizations is distributed unequally." Thais also rank very high in the dimension know as Collectivism, which is "characterized by a tight social framework in which people distinguish between in-groups and out-groups."

The Thai's way of placing her/himself in the Cautious Circle as often as possible, for in this circle s/he usually gets treated with the dignity s/he craves for. The Thai accomplishes this through her/his clothing, demeanor, and appropriate usage of language or a dignified look in order to remind others that s/he is not to be taken lightly.

Thinking of penetrating the Family Circle as a Farang by marrying a Thai? Better think again, you may think you are part of the Family Circle, but all you are doing is float around in the Cautious Circle for as long as the Thai has an use for the Farang through the so well used by the Thais:

kreng jai

refers to an attitude whereby an individual tries to restrain her/his own interest or desires, in situations where there is the potential for discomfort or conflict, and where there is a need to maintain a pleasant and cooperative relationship.

1. Complying with other's wishes or requests;

2. Reluctance to disturb or interrupt others;

3. Restraint of one's show of displeasure or anger so as not to cause discomfort to others;

4. Avoidance of asserting one's opinions or needs;

5. Reluctance to give instructions or pass orders to a supervisor, or to peers with more age or experience;

6. Reluctance to evaluate a colleague's or supervisor's performance;

7. Avoiding to ask questions when one has not understood someone;

8. Reluctance to ask questions when one has not understood someone.

Then there is kreng jai towards juniors.

kreng jai in Government is a good example why corruption will never be eliminated and the government never will operate efficiently as long as the Thais stick with their antiquated behavior.

Investigating government officials on charges of corruption. When a relative of the accused learns one member of the investigating committee is also a relative, the investigation slows down or comes to a halt. In one such case, some of the suspected officials were of very high rank. A department regulation required that the probing committee must consist of "members of a higher or similar rank and the ministry had no officials of such rank." Thus, the investigation could not even get off the ground.

At high levels of government, kreng jai makes it difficult for a bright subordinate to contradict a director-general or minister on crucial matters of policy.

There is more

hai kiad

A motivating value, which every Thai seeks, is known as kiad - honor and respect. With the addition of the word hai, the value known as hai kiad means "to give respect or show honor". On the surface, this quality might seem no different from its Western counterpart. However, the expression of that respect is different in emphasis and style.

wai

The junior is obligated to show respect to the senior. This respect is through the wai, where the hands are brought together sort of prayer position at chest level or mouth level, accompanied by a slight bow.

All of this may look like part of the exciting Orient, but it does not fit in any longer with the fast moving high-tech world of today. It worked OK in the days of the Bullock cart, but it does not any longer in the days of the behemoth 18 and 22-wheelers. It also put at odds the litany of:

· Thais are so polite;

· What a friendly people they are;

· You always see them smiling;

· You will not find a more considered people.

Thais were such charming people when living in their villages in the mid-20^th century. However, since then havoc has been created in their lives by turning them loose in to a fast moving world for which they never were properly educated. To the extend that it has now become, no not a society, but a grouping of people which shows total contempt for the Laws, law enforcement organizations, and living in a large interacting society.

Hmm.

Social Anthropology 101 - Thai Culture.

Many thanks. Now I know what is going on.

[Deeral]

if Abhisit has conceded already - I would think that qualifies as "landslide"

It's not a landslide. The exit-polls are inheritable flawed.

Exit polls are rarely wrong though. So now we have to question is the vote count being tampered with?

How could these exit polls be wrong? The ex told me when she and her sisters/granny voted today they were asked when leaving who they voted for by nice uni kids with clipboards, Standing next to the kids were "friends" of the folks who had handed out envelopes of cash a few minutes before, listening and watching what was written down. What were they going to say - they voted for the other party? She also said there were "helpers" who were showing people how to mark their ballots.

Thank you for highlighting the reason exit-polls in some locations are very unreliable.