Regional Role Based In Bangkok, Paid In Australia?

[crikey]

I work for an Australian technology company doing Southern APAC pre-sales for our US parent, but would like to base myself in Bangkok next year to minimise travel, seeing as I'm on the road about half the time.

I therefore won't have a Thai company to sponsor a working visa, but I'm wondering if I can still base myself in Bangkok (e.g. with an apartment) without having to bend any rules. I have several million baht in my account and will get paid about this again in annual salary. If necessary I can just keep getting paid into my Australian account and drawing on it through ATMs and credit cards. I'm not after any tax breaks, but won't say no to them - I'll pay tax wherever I have to pay tax.

Is this possible?

Vital statistics: Australian citizen, 26 years old.

[Bobcat]

As long as your pre-sales activities are outside Thailand, and you don't do any other business in Thailand, I think you should be okay. You'll likely pay Aussie tax, but would not expect you to pay tax in Thailand as you won't be working. Drawing from your ATM/credit card sounds fine to me as well. Not sure about renting an apartment long-term without a work permit or longer-term visa, though. Most landlords would want to see some evidence that you'll be around for a while or at least are permitted to be around. I'm sure others will have more info and thoughts.

Cheers,

Bob

[Firefan]

Crikey; you are almost in my situation. If I read your post correctly you consider to BUY an apartment and that might give you the possibility of a non-em-B visa based on investments above 3M Baht in the Kingdom.

That is the extension I am currently pursuing.

Others have mentioned that simply showing a bank book in Thailand (in specific banks) with 3M Baht in it might do the trick.

Check the Thaivisa.com front page for non-em B extension possibilities and you can also check the thread started by me recently here on the 3M Baht rules.

As for renting on a tourist visa or whatever I do not think you will have a problem - that is what deposits are for.

Cheers!

[crikey]

Hi Firefan,

Actually, I was just looking to rent for this first year - I prefer not to get tied down to one place! Everything I read seems to suggest I need a sponsoring company - e.g. the 10 steps, the example letter, etc. I don't currently have a Thai bank account.

I would be leaving and entering the country at least once a month, so the 90 day thing wouldn't be a problem - I just worry that I'd draw attention to myself and get rejected one time.

Unfortunately I would need to do what is classified as "work" there - the occasional meeting or presentation with prospective customers, etc. I'd also be working at home the rest of the time (or at least, that's what my boss expects!). However, there would be no income derived directly while in Thailand - any contracts signed would be between Thai companies and our US parent, and I'd be paid into my Australian account.

Without a sponsoring company it seems I can't get the non-em B visa, but if I were to just get tourist visas I'd be breaking the rules by working. The alternative is KL (where we do have a subsidiary) but I really don't want to go there.

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

Crikey.

Easy peasey

Following lifted from Imm Bureau website

Application for extension of stay of persons investing a minimum of 3 million Baht in the Kingdom

Evidence of transfer of at least 3 million Baht from abroad into Thailand. The applicant must be either the sender abroad or the recipient in Thailand of the investment.

Evidence of investing the transferred money after the transfer is completed in one or several of the following cases:

Deposit the money in a fixed account of a state bank (Krung Thai Bank, Government Savings Bank, Bank for Agriculture and Cooperative, Ratanasin Bank, Srinakhorn Bank, Nakhornluang Thai Bank, Housing Bank)

Buy bonds issued by a state agency or government enterprise. The bonds must be purchased directly from a state agency or government enterprise or an authorised dealer.

Buy an apartment or condominium at the price set and registered by the Land Department.

Any kind of investment deemed beneficial to the country by the Immigration Bureau.

That's it folks! Easy

Investing in Gov bank probably best option. P*ss poor rate of interest but I expect you can live with that.

Don't buy condo until you are satisfied you will be happy here. Rent. Maybe you'll change your job. Not always easy to resell.

A work permit is permitted with this visa BUT from info you provide you won't get one or need one and even if you did you'll be in and out the country a lot so who'd know and who'd care.

Tax - forget it. You're not working here are you. Tax break - forget it.

Lastly if going for bank deposit save your money and forget forget lawyers.

You could come on consecutive tourist visas but eventually you could be denied one. You don't want or need the hassle. And if you regularly travel outside Thailand you'll use up your entries in no time.

[singa-traz]

As long as your pre-sales activities are outside Thailand, and you don't do any other business in Thailand, I think you should be okay.  You'll likely pay Aussie tax, but would not expect you to pay tax in Thailand as you won't be working.  Drawing from your ATM/credit card sounds fine to me as well.  Not sure about renting an apartment long-term without a work permit or longer-term visa, though.  Most landlords would want to see some evidence that you'll be around for a while or at least are permitted to be around.  I'm sure others will have more info and thoughts.

Cheers,

Bob

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

For Tax purpose, check the RD site, http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6000.0.html.

You are required to pay tax, on the amount you transfer in Thailand, if you are a Tax resident (Stay in Thailand more than 180 days a year) ... even if you are not working in Thailand.

Check also the Tax Treaty with Australia for double taxation issue: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/809.0.html

With the knowledge of the law ... then, take your decision !

[autonomous_unit]

I think you and your employer might want to get legal advice regarding the need for a work permit. If you are indeed working from home, what is the risk to you and the employer if you are determined to be working illegally? Do they have business in Thailand or expect it in the future?

I think you will get a repeating range of answers here on the forum as to whether you "need" a work permit and whether you'll have problems in practice without one. This is a separate question from how you can get a visa to be in Thailand. Nobody here can make the judgement for you as to what your risks and needs are.

If you and your employer decide you need one, you would want to get advice on incorporating in such a way as to hire yourself in Thailand, sponsor a work permit, and do contract work for your current employer.

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

Sorry Crikey. I hadn't seen your 2nd post when I posted. I must have opened the reply box a minute or 2 before you posted.

But, what on earth made me say you don't need a work permit? Let me say what others are thinking: CR*P ADVICE. For some reason I assumed your work did not involve Thailand and you just wanted to live, and commute from, here. OK do preparation, reports and the like but not something immigration would be excited about.

I repeat however that getting an investment visa is easy peasy.

I agree 100% with Auto units advice re work permit.

But Whoooa....steady on singa-traz.

He is only liable to Tax on the INTEREST on the funds he transfers into Thailand if he is in country for 180 or more days in a year.

OK big deal how much is that going to amount to.

[singa-traz]

But Whoooa....steady on singa-traz.

He is only liable to Tax on the INTEREST on the funds he transfers into Thailand if he is in country for 180 or more days in a year.

OK big deal how much is that going to amount to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From RD:

Taxable Person

    Taxpayers are classified into "resident" and "non-resident". "Resident" means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand on a cash basis, regardless where the money is paid, as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.

Only on the Interest ?

My understanding is that if you transfer 1M THB a year from your oversea income, you would have to pay tax on it, and not just the interest that you could earn from it.

Any Tax expert to confirm this ?

[Indo-Siam]

Crickey -

My present business is helping people start companies, and get work and entry permits. So I have a vested interest in generating business.

With that said - you can set up shop here, and come and go as you please - as long as you are naturally moving throughout Asia regularly, and coming and going on 30 day entries on arrival. If you transfer money over to a Thai personal account from an overseas personal account - or if you operate via ATM cards drawing from an overseas account, you can forget about Thai taxes.

I say all this from my previous role for several years here as - Asian Technical Manager for an overseas company - paid overseas, and simply based here, traveling continually throughout Asia. I was utterly invisible to Thailand - in the same status as a businessman visiting here for a trade show.

Ignore all the fear-mongers here. You will be utterly invisble to official Thailand. I've been there, done that - and I now work every day in the work permit/entry permit industry. You will be "working" here incidentally, as a commuting resident - Thailand is not concerned with you at all.

Your only restrictions: you will not be able to get a post-billing handphone account without a work permit; you will not be able to lease a car here without a work permit (but you can buy one outright).

Good luck - it is a pretty sweet situation, for as long as you can pull it off!

Steve Sykes

Managing Director

Indo-Siam Group

Bangkok

steve @indo-siam.com

www.thaistartup.com

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

YES ONLY ON THE INTEREST AND DON'T FORGET HE GETS A PERSONAL TAX ALLOWANCE SO MAY END UP PAYING NOTHING.

I picked up on your statement because you used the words "required" to pay tax. If you had said "liable" I would not have responded. Semantics yes. But your statement is wrong and misleading. I acknowledge you did refer OP to other sites.

The 3 million he imports to get his visa would be deemed savings (i.e income from a previous year). So forget.

Under double taxation agreements (and being lazy I haven't checked Aussie agreements but a pound to a penny I'm right) income already taxed in Australia is exempt from Thai tax. (He says he intends for his income to continue to be paid into Australia). There is a trifling caveat which is not enforced so I won't bore you with it.

If I'm wrong there are an thousands of pensioners out there (me included) who should be ringing their accountants. But I'm not going to lose any sleep.

Now some countries, Aussieland may be one, exempt their citizens from income tax if the are not resident. OP will not be resident. In this circumstance he can transfer the money to Thailand or have it paid directly into a Thai bank when YES he will be liable to Thai PIT.

Now tax laws are made by lawyers so are necessarily complex. You and I are not meant to understand, but there are ways for expats to avoid tax in home country and Thailand. One way in Thailand is to declare that money transferred is savings from previous year(s).

Now then do you want to get into the realms of withholding tax....it can get very messy.

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

Indo-Siam,

Sorry just seen YOUR post. You posted yours in the 30 or so mins I was drafting my last one.

If it was me I'd take your advice about WP. Indeed, in my first post I brushed off the need for one. I then reconsidered after seeing other posts. OP made clear in his first post he wants to be legit if poss.

To be legit he probably needs a WP. Depends entirely how much he does in the way of drumming up business and making presentations in Thailand. Paperwork at home be damned.

Consider: 10 million to one chance he is picked up for not having a work permit and 10000 to one chance it would impact on his employer. Does he want to chance that? At least he should discuss with his employer.

Lastly he is NOT a tourist. He has said he has millions in the bank so my advice is go legit. Get the investment visa. Saves having to p*ss around if for any reason there is no work requiring him to leave within a 30 day period. Saves sweating at BKK imm wondering if this time you are going taken to one side and I bet you must have had apprehension after you 5th or 6th entry in as many months.

I would ALWAYS suggest someone go legit where there circumstances allow.

If the OP had asked what can I get away with your post is spot on but he didn't.

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

TAXATION

Why has nobody picked me up on my tax dissertation?

I assumed Aussie and UK tax treaties similar. Wrong. I shied away from readiing it because I assumed it was a dogs breakfast like UK agreement. Its actually easy to understrnd.

Fortunately It re-inforces my assertion.

Only tax to which OP will be liable is on interest from investment AND DON'T FORGET HE GETS A PERSONAL TAX ALLOWANCE SO MAY END UP PAYING NOTHING. Unless the government sponsored bank where he invests declare the interest to Tax office no point in OP declaring it.

I've amended my post significantly.

Before you ask I am not an expert on Thai/Aussie tax but I do have a UK tax background -I paid an awful lot of it and still pay too much.

The 3 million OP imports to get his visa would be deemed savings (i.e income from a previous year). So forget.

Under double taxation agreements income already taxed in Australia is exempt from Thai tax. He says he intends for his income to continue to be paid into Australia and working for an Aussie company it would be deemed originating in Aussieland and therefore only taxable in Aussieland. There is a trifling caveat which is not enforced so I won't bore you with it.

I've deleted bit about pensions because it is not relevant and I'm annoyed because I've discovered Aussies and UK not treated the same. No wonder so many aussies in Thailand

Now some countries, Aussieland is one, exempt their citizens from income tax if you are not resident provided income is derived from Thailand or a third country in which case it is subject to Thai tax. OP will not be OZ resident but his income is derived from an australian company.

Above over-simplifies issues but it covers OPs situation adequately.

Tax laws are made by lawyers so are necessarily complex. You and I are not meant to understand, and there are ways for expats to avoid tax in home country and Thailand. One way in Thailand is to declare that money transferred is savings from previous year(s).

Now then do you want to get into the realms of withholding tax....it can get very messy.

I repeat Sunbelts point - why do so many posters set out to invent difficulties.

[crikey]

Thanks for the flurry of great posts. There are quite a few things to weigh up here.

I'd definitely prefer to do this all legitimately, but transferring 3M in cash into the country doesn't sound too wonderful. I assume you have to keep the money there, so how do they track this, and how hard is it to take it back out again say after 9-12 months if I move again?

Setting up a business is probably out of the question - too much paperwork, so my boss would probably say "that seals it, it's KL or nothing" (he's a Canadian expat there).

Then there's the "tourist" option. I could maybe stay clear from business and get colleagues to fill in, as strange as that would be. At most it will be 1-2 weeks in the year anyway. I just wonder whether they'll get suspicious after the 20th passport stamping for the year - that doesn't seem so "invisible" to me. The main problem would be what to do with the leased apartment, my clothes there, etc, if I were denied re-entry.

Hopefully there's a simple way/rule to work this out, after all I would be a good contributor to the economy - all money in, none out!

Edited October 20, 2005 by crikey

[Indo-Siam]

I entered and departed Thailand 86 times between 1997 and early 2002. As long as there are several days between a lot of the periods in Thailand, and you are visiting a number of different countries continually for several days, Immigration "classifies" you in the "traveling regional businesman" niche - and they utterly ignore you.

The only Thai government officials you will ever interact with are the inbound and outbound immigration clerks at the airport.

I am telling you - Thailand will not care about you. If you walk into a Revenue Office, and tell them that you "spend a lot of time in Thailand" and would like to pay taxes here - they will look at your passport, then ask you if you have a Thai employer - and when you tell them no, they will smile, and politely tell you to go away and let then get back to work.

You fit no "routine" in their playbook, so they have no way of fitting you into their system. You match a profile that they see as being only very marginally associated with Thailand - and they are not interested in the hard work to make you fit into one of their templates.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

Cold feet now. You will get your money back but whether it has to remain invested for a fixed term I'll need to research. May invalidate the visa. What was the point of telling us you had millions in the bank?

You will not be denied entry. You would be warned this is the last time. Get visa.

Re your last para. Thailand is one of the most relaxed countries in the world when it comes to immigration. Although you might not think it from this forum.

Can you think of another country that would allow you a visa based on as little as 3,000K baht.

Sunbelt have given you the simple option.

[crikey]

Cold feet now. You will get your money back but whether it has to remain invested for a fixed term I'll need to research. May invalidate the visa. What was the point of telling us you had millions in the bank?

Well that was more in terms of proving capital or self sufficiency or what. Leaving it locked up in a Thai account is a whole other matter, although not one I've discarded for now.

Can you point me to the website that describes the 3M baht investment scheme? I googled the phrase but didn't hit on any official-sounding websites.

[Seen all,learnt nothing]

Crikey,

I've already shown you where to find outline info.

Bad news: looks looks like you keep the money here permanently. Think of it as a charitable donation. Price to pay for everything. Whats 3 million baht anyway? Pocket money to most of us ex-pats. Good news: I'm usually wrong.