Top Thai Language Speakers Honoured

[SteeleJoe]

when you actually speak and understand Thai with fluency very few Thais will approve, much less congratulate your efforts...

Well the bar is set pretty dam_n high but nonetheless I can definitely say that's one of the biggest inaccuracies I've seen yet on TVF.

Complete b^#llocks.

I have been here for 6 years, and my Thai is very basic... I am a slow learner. Anyway, I noticed that if I speak basic Thai, the locals are often very impressed and congratulate me on how wonderful my Thai is. My friend has been here for the same amount of time, but he can speak and read Thai... pretty well actually. And he often gets negative responces from Thais. This I have seen on many occassions. Even for me, as my Thai improved I started getting more negative comments.

I would say that the majority of Thais are more impressed by farang who speak Thai... but there is a segment who get hot under the collar when they hear farang speak Thai comfortably.

Thus, the comment is not complete b#llocks.

Very few Thais will approve of you achieving fluency in Thai? B#llocks.

Much less congratulate you? More b#lllocks.

That's complete. (Even you own post clearly contradicts the the statement in question).

By the way, can you give some examples of the negative comments you and your friend received and under what circumstances?

Edited July 8, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[Thai at Heart]

Always funny to hear what can be said when people don't think you can understand any Thai.

[SteeleJoe]

Further to previous post from SAffer:

I am not implying that this applies to you or necessarily to anyone on this thread (though it may) but, I'm reminded of what I used to say to Farang guys who'd sort of derisively say to me, "Of course they like you -- you can speak Thai", (feeling sort of annoyed that they apparently assumed that it wasn't my personality or choices in behavior that allowed me to get along well with Thais but merely my language skills) I'd point out that saying the wrong things in another person's native language is not only not going to be not well received but possibly even less than if it were said in your own. So it wasn't a matter of me speaking Thai, it was a matter of me generally saying the right things (for a particular situation) and knowing how to say them well in their own language.

In other words, if you say stupid, insensitive, culturally ignorant, rude or otherwise unappreciated things, people won't like them no matter what language you say them in but perhaps especially in Thai (and back when I used to enjoy the nightlife, I saw a lot of cretins use their knowledge of Thai -- such as it was -- to say asinine and/or ugly things), if you know how to talk to people -- in whatever language -- it's a different story.

EDIT for Typos

Edited July 8, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[steveromagnino]

It's not that easy to speak Thai at the highest level, and I have a lot of respect and time for those willing to learn it.

Not sure the new Ambassador is that fluent, but at least she's making the effort; not entirely sure that the award is deserved, given that several Ambassadors speak Thai quite fluently.

Regarding different treatment for speaking Thai at a higher level; yes, some people insist on speaking english, and can get frustrated when they are answered in Thai; in the case of me and my brother; my brother will invariably get 100% of people speaking in Thai to him, while I get 50/50; despite very different levels in fluency it isn't uncommon that some people will continue to speak to him in Thai when he speaks in english, and speak to me in english, even when I answer in Thai.

The basic aspects of respect, and the reality that some people are simply knobs for a variety of reason, may result in some resentment for this or for that. Can't say I notice it much; in legal and governmental matters, a certain level of Thai speaking opens doors that would otherwise be closed; in life and out and about, some people just would rather be able to showcase their english ability than have a conversation....I know a few like that, but not so many.

The rub of the whole thing is life can be a whole lot better here in some ways, long term, if shortterm you can afford the time and effort to learn to speak Thai properly (reading and writing also a plus); but for many there is no requirement to understand long term how Thais think, to work speaking Thai, to read the news etc...hence no real requirement to learn it at anything more than a get by level. In the case of living in the provinces, speaking Thai at a provincial level opens doors not otherwise there....even for other Thais (the southerner in Isaan type scenario).

For an ambassador....nice to have but I bet the real nitty gritty details will not ever be talked about in Thai :_)...otherwise could be an interesting confusion on new governments and burning stuff again 55555555

Edited July 8, 2011 by steveromagnino

[sbk]

Sorry kilgoretrout but I disagree with you.

I speak Southern Thai like a Thai and either get bemused amazement followed by smiles, or relief that I speak Thai (albeit with an accent). And usually, the things I hear when they dont' think I understand is "Look at the farang, she has such beautiful white skin" etc.

Perhaps if one goes around with a scowl or bad or superior attitude then one gets negative responses but I approach everything with smiles and ease and receive it in response.

As for the Ambassador, well, I am sure she didn't apply for the award so its hardly fair to blame her if her Thai isn't up to scratch. At least she's trying.

[Kilgore Trout]

Sorry kilgoretrout but I disagree with you.

I speak Southern Thai like a Thai and either get bemused amazement followed by smiles, or relief that I speak Thai (albeit with an accent). And usually, the things I hear when they dont' think I understand is "Look at the farang, she has such beautiful white skin" etc.

Perhaps if one goes around with a scowl or bad or superior attitude then one gets negative responses but I approach everything with smiles and ease and receive it in response.

As for the Ambassador, well, I am sure she didn't apply for the award so its hardly fair to blame her if her Thai isn't up to scratch. At least she's trying.

Different people have different experiences, I respect the fact that you disagree; clearly there are others (included in this topic) who have seen the reality I describe. Unfortunately, there are those (on this forum) who can't agree to disagree and isist on throwing tantrums

[sbk]

No tantrum here and I certainly believe you have had bad experiences. I just find it interesting as in the more than 20 years I have lived in Thailand I haven't had a single one as a result of the fact I speak Thai with some fluency.

[jdinasia]

And so different from my experiences. I find most people delighted to hear me speak Thai and appreciate the fact that I have made an effort.

And yes this includes everyone, not just a few. I can't say I have had a single negative reaction to me speaking Thai.

Same here (except once in Patong -- when I spoke very bluntly to a tout in Thai )

My neighbors love it. My employer and my staff at work love it ... the immigration office loves it ... the MoL office loves it .... my clients love it ..... My BF thinks it is funny because he forgets I know Thai (He's fluent in English).

People getting a negative reaction must not know any of the Thai people I know. Maybe that is wrong, maybe I just don't know any of the Thai people they know

[kuffki]

Or may be because you are a white female

And so different from my experiences. I find most people delighted to hear me speak Thai and appreciate the fact that I have made an effort.

And yes this includes everyone, not just a few. I can't say I have had a single negative reaction to me speaking Thai.

Same here (except once in Patong -- when I spoke very bluntly to a tout in Thai )

My neighbors love it. My employer and my staff at work love it ... the immigration office loves it ... the MoL office loves it .... my clients love it ..... My BF thinks it is funny because he forgets I know Thai (He's fluent in English).

People getting a negative reaction must not know any of the Thai people I know. Maybe that is wrong, maybe I just don't know any of the Thai people they know

[jdinasia]

Or may be because you are a white female

And so different from my experiences. I find most people delighted to hear me speak Thai and appreciate the fact that I have made an effort.

And yes this includes everyone, not just a few. I can't say I have had a single negative reaction to me speaking Thai.

Same here (except once in Patong -- when I spoke very bluntly to a tout in Thai )

My neighbors love it. My employer and my staff at work love it ... the immigration office loves it ... the MoL office loves it .... my clients love it ..... My BF thinks it is funny because he forgets I know Thai (He's fluent in English).

People getting a negative reaction must not know any of the Thai people I know. Maybe that is wrong, maybe I just don't know any of the Thai people they know

Nope --- 47 year old chubby white professional.

The ONLY people that look down on foreigners understanding them are those running scams. Those people are typically in quite limited geographic zones. I live in one of those zones but I still don't run into the issues reported by other members and that is in all likelihood because I avoid the real tourist zones of Chiang Mai (even though I live inside the moat)

[kuffki]

But still a white female

Or may be because you are a white female

And so different from my experiences. I find most people delighted to hear me speak Thai and appreciate the fact that I have made an effort.

And yes this includes everyone, not just a few. I can't say I have had a single negative reaction to me speaking Thai.

Same here (except once in Patong -- when I spoke very bluntly to a tout in Thai )

My neighbors love it. My employer and my staff at work love it ... the immigration office loves it ... the MoL office loves it .... my clients love it ..... My BF thinks it is funny because he forgets I know Thai (He's fluent in English).

People getting a negative reaction must not know any of the Thai people I know. Maybe that is wrong, maybe I just don't know any of the Thai people they know

Nope --- 47 year old chubby white professional.

The ONLY people that look down on foreigners understanding them are those running scams. Those people are typically in quite limited geographic zones. I live in one of those zones but I still don't run into the issues reported by other members and that is in all likelihood because I avoid the real tourist zones of Chiang Mai (even though I live inside the moat)

[DP25]

I can't imagine ever getting a negative reaction for speaking or understanding Thai, aside from Walking Street bar girls, Patpong taxi touts, and Phuket jet ski scammers

[surayu]

At this point, i think there is only one way we could possibly find out, all we need is a special task force from Pattaya, to tell her the most enigmatic sentence ever wrote in TV, "big fish eat small fish" and see what we came out with....

[coma]

Or may be because you are a white female

And so different from my experiences. I find most people delighted to hear me speak Thai and appreciate the fact that I have made an effort.

And yes this includes everyone, not just a few. I can't say I have had a single negative reaction to me speaking Thai.

Same here (except once in Patong -- when I spoke very bluntly to a tout in Thai )

My neighbors love it. My employer and my staff at work love it ... the immigration office loves it ... the MoL office loves it .... my clients love it ..... My BF thinks it is funny because he forgets I know Thai (He's fluent in English).

People getting a negative reaction must not know any of the Thai people I know. Maybe that is wrong, maybe I just don't know any of the Thai people they know

Nope --- 47 year old chubby white professional.

The ONLY people that look down on foreigners understanding them are those running scams. Those people are typically in quite limited geographic zones. I live in one of those zones but I still don't run into the issues reported by other members and that is in all likelihood because I avoid the real tourist zones of Chiang Mai (even though I live inside the moat)

CORRECT!!! That is my experience and view also. They have an adverse reaction to the foreigner speaking their mother tongue as they cannot fleece that particular individual and they are also concerned that you will warn other foreigners of said scam/s. And yes. It is pretty much always in the tourist areas of Thailand.

As I stated earlier in this thread. Any Thai that reacts negatively to a foreigner speaking Thai is a Thai that should be avoided at ALL costs. :jap:

[Oberkommando]

Is it just me or does the US Ambassador look like an evil Mary Poppins?

I have had many normal Thais react negatively to me speaking Thai, anyone with a proper grasp of the language will have had the same experience IMO.

[onionluke]

The American official looks like the woman employer in that movie where the Issan maids become hi-tech government spies due to their ability to earywig and snoop. There is a " Call me Madame " ma dam, joke in there . ??

[Rhys]

when you actually speak and understand Thai with fluency very few Thais will approve, much less congratulate your efforts...

Well the bar is set pretty dam_n high but nonetheless I can definitely say that's one of the biggest inaccuracies I've seen yet on TVF.

Complete b^#llocks.

Clearly a quote from someone who has not a proper grasp on the Thai language

I once had a problem at a restaurant for asking where the bathroom is in Thai; got a huge lecture from the obnoxious kid of the owner who said in order to work he "had" to learn English, but foreigners don't need to speak Thai and he didn't like hearing it. He then refused to serve me for less than double the price of what the menu stated;

granted this was an extreme case but the sentiment is similar in day to day dealings.

Not painting everyone with this brush, but it does exist, big time.

Dudes..this is all political Stoke me ...Stroke me Long time...tit

[cmsally]

I think it would be a bit tricky if you were the Ambassador. In a position of knowing you don't deserve it, but really impolite to turn it down.

Just looking at how some of the posters on here register Thai's reactions, I'm wondering if people only listen to what is said and ignore all the non verbal communication.

It's an interesting route doing the Thai learning and observing the social interaction. I think everybody must have been met with someone who didn't appreciate their language skills, even if it was for a brief moment when you opened your mouth and turned out not what they assumed you were.

[SteeleJoe]

Is it just me or does the US Ambassador look like an evil Mary Poppins?

I have had many normal Thais react negatively to me speaking Thai, anyone with a proper grasp of the language will have had the same experience IMO.

So according to you, a few of us on this thread are liars (either about our abilities or our experiences). Fine.

As an aside, I wonder if it's a coincidence that at least a couple of posters who make this claim are posters who, if I recall correctly, consistently have an extremely negative view of Thais and Thailand...I think not.

[Oberkommando]

So according to you, a few of us on this thread are liars (either about our abilities or our experiences). Fine.

I never said anything of the sort. :jap:

[SteeleJoe]

So according to you, a few of us on this thread are liars (either about our abilities or our experiences). Fine.

I never said anything of the sort. :jap:

Oh, you certainly did. It is implicit here:

...anyone with a proper grasp of the language will have had the same experience IMO.

I and others claim to have a "proper grasp of the language" and to not have had the same experience.

EDIT to ADD:

Whatever. Just as I wasn't interested in getting into it with Kilgore Trout (who thinks he can magically divine my language skills or lack thereof) I am not at all interested in getting into a pointless "Yes, I can" vs "No, you can't" about something neither of us can prove even if I were inclined to do so (and I'm not in the least -- why should care if you believe that I speak Thai as well as I claim? And who cares if I do?)

I'll humor you:

I'm lying, and....

A. I can't speak Thai well

B. I can speak Thai fluently and Thais often/generally/always disapprove.

Choose your favorite option(s).

Edited July 9, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[bino]

Any Thai that responds negatively to a foriegner speaking Thai is a Thai that is best given a wide birth.

Not nice to speak of their mothers that way!

[Xangsamhua]

Any Thai that responds negatively to a foriegner speaking Thai is a Thai that is best given a wide birth.

Not nice to speak of their mothers that way!

[coma]

Any Thai that responds negatively to a foriegner speaking Thai is a Thai that is best given a wide birth.

Not nice to speak of their mothers that way!

LOL!!!

[SpoliaOpima]

And so different from my experiences. I find most people delighted to hear me speak Thai and appreciate the fact that I have made an effort.

And yes this includes everyone, not just a few. I can't say I have had a single negative reaction to me speaking Thai.

I think it depends on what level your Thai is. For foreigners who reach near-native fluency (which only a very few do, it seems), I have seen the negative reaction the member refers too, as summed up in the infamous phrase ฝรั่งรู้มาก.

While I was still at beginning and intermediate levels, even high intermediate - say 3+ on the FSI scale - I had 100% positive reactions to speaking Thai. When it got to the point I could read and write, and understand pretty much everything said around me or on Thai TV news, for example, a few negative reactions began to trickle in. Still mostly positive, but I would say with certainty that in my experience, there are Thais who view very fluent foreigners - farang especially - with some suspicion or resentment. Yes of course, it is a form of xenophobia.

That said, for me the positives of speaking Thai proficiently far outweigh the negatives, and I don't know any foreigner who doesn't feel the same way (other than the member who posted above).

I wonder why people get different responses. I can read and write and sound impressive for a little while (I tire after that) and I can't remember any Thai responding negatively. Most, even quite good English speakers, seem relieved when they realize they don't have to speak English. I have very occasionally had people respond with a lengthy burst of rapid Thai that's out of my league; perhaps that's meant to put me in my place. :-)

I speak Thai well enough that on the phone or when I'm in the back of a dark taxi at night, I'm mistaken for a Thai. I've never had a negative reaction to it (except years ago when I used to go to bars and from only the most larcenous ill-intentioned working girls (most of whom did not fall into such a category, in my experience) who announce their distaste for Farangs who "know too much").

My Thai colleagues with very high levels of English often choose to speak Thai with me and I simply have never seen any evidence at any time that my Thai speaking bothered anyone -- even the rare Thai who I feel is obviously not too keen on foreigners doesn't seem to mind me speaking Thai and indeed they sometimes end up treating me slightly better than my Farang friends that don't speak Thai as well.

I do the same thing, speak English when it's clear that's what the other person wants, at least until they tire of it. It used to bother me because it seemed so inefficient. Now I find it admirable that they persevere.

Edited July 10, 2011 by SpoliaOpima

[SpoliaOpima]

And so different from my experiences. I find most people delighted to hear me speak Thai and appreciate the fact that I have made an effort.

And yes this includes everyone, not just a few. I can't say I have had a single negative reaction to me speaking Thai.

I think it depends on what level your Thai is. For foreigners who reach near-native fluency (which only a very few do, it seems), I have seen the negative reaction the member refers too, as summed up in the infamous phrase ฝรั่งรู้มาก.

While I was still at beginning and intermediate levels, even high intermediate - say 3+ on the FSI scale - I had 100% positive reactions to speaking Thai. When it got to the point I could read and write, and understand pretty much everything said around me or on Thai TV news, for example, a few negative reactions began to trickle in. Still mostly positive, but I would say with certainty that in my experience, there are Thais who view very fluent foreigners - farang especially - with some suspicion or resentment. Yes of course, it is a form of xenophobia.

That said, for me the positives of speaking Thai proficiently far outweigh the negatives, and I don't know any foreigner who doesn't feel the same way (other than the member who posted above).

I wonder why people get different responses. I can read and write and sound impressive for a little while (I tire after that) and I can't remember any Thai responding negatively. Most, even quite good English speakers, seem relieved when they realize they don't have to speak English. I have very occasionally had people respond with a lengthy burst of rapid Thai that's out of my league; perhaps that's meant to put me in my place. :-)

I speak Thai well enough that on the phone or when I'm in the back of a dark taxi at night, I'm mistaken for a Thai. I've never had a negative reaction to it (except years ago when I used to go to bars and from only the most larcenous ill-intentioned working girls (most of whom did not fall into such a category, in my experience) who announce their distaste for Farangs who "know too much").

My Thai colleagues with very high levels of English often choose to speak Thai with me and I simply have never seen any evidence at any time that my Thai speaking bothered anyone -- even the rare Thai who I feel is obviously not too keen on foreigners doesn't seem to mind me speaking Thai and indeed they sometimes end up treating me slightly better than my Farang friends that don't speak Thai as well.

Judging from your description of your Thai proficiency, I'd guess you're approximately a level 3+, where short, semi-rehearsed language on the phone might lead a Thai to think you're a native speaker etc. In my observation, the negative reactions - and they are well in the minority to begin with -- occur at near-native proficiency levels, ie 4+.

If you learned Thai as an adult, and don't read and write Thai fluently, then you are not a 4+. If you claim to speak a regional Thai dialect well, it's not the same thing as the minority of Thais who might show a negative reaction, in my experience, don't pereceive that to be as much of s threat because it means you are not an educated speaker (snother subtle type of discrimination).

I don't go around with a scowl on my face Part of becoming proficient in Thai over the last 25+ years of residence in Thailand has entailed acquiring all the nonverbal behaviour that goes with everyday civil communication here to the best of my abilities. I fit in, for the most part.

For those who don't believe such reactions occur - even to polite, well-mannered, smiling foreigners -- IMO either you're dreaming or more likely your Thai isn't there yet. Or it just hasn't happened to you yet. Just cecause you haven't observed a certain behaviour - one which is atypical to begin with - does not mean that behaviour doesn't exist.

Interesting that no one posting here has reacted to the phrase ฝรั่งรู้มาก. If you're heard the phrase, you know what it means. And if you don't know what it means, or you can't read the phrase, your Thai is not at the level where a few Thais who harbour a thing about Thai-proficient foreigners might react in a negative way.

You might give language-negative Thais a wide 'birth' or better yet a wide berth -- if you knew their attitude beforehand, which normally you don't -- but one doesn't always have the choice of who to transact with in every situation.

More importantly, it's a trivial matter (as far as I'm concerned at least). People of virtually all nationalities occasionally express xenophobic attitudes or ethnic stereotyping to one degree or another. It should never dissuade anyone from learning Thai to the best of their ability, as the rewards far exceed any perceived deficit. That's there where I completely disagree with the poster who thought it wasn't worth it because of negative reactions. That's an extreme reaction to a trifling issue.

[noncommercial]

I for one will be looking forward to hearing Ambassador Kenney's acceptance speech. If it is anything other than "Kop Kun Maak Kaaaaa" and a smiley wai then I will be impressed.

[SteeleJoe]

Judging from your description of your Thai proficiency, I'd guess you're approximately a level 3+, where short, semi-rehearsed language on the phone might lead a Thai to think you're a native speaker etc. In my observation, the negative reactions - and they are well in the minority to begin with -- occur at near-native proficiency levels, ie 4+.

Sorry for my frankness but while I'm sure you have every right to be as impressed with by yourself as you apparently are, you presume quite a lot, don't you think?

I'm not going to get into a competition with anyone -- and don't claim I'd win one with you --but I said nothing about "short, semi-rehearsed language" and in fact I was referring to much more than that; I can understand everything said around me and virtually everything on Thai TV news; and I don't use a regional dialect

Part of becoming proficient in Thai over the last 25+ years of residence in Thailand has entailed acquiring all the nonverbal behaviour that goes with everyday civil communication here to the best of my abilities. I fit in, for the most part.

That would apply to me as well. Even, coincedentally, the number of years.

For those who don't believe such reactions occur.

Speaking for myself, I have never said they don't occur. What I said was that this was complete hogwash:

...when you actually speak and understand Thai with fluency very few Thais will approve, much less congratulate your efforts.

I still believe this to be the case.