Thailand's Democrats Seek Ban On Thaksin Party

[OzMick]

... it seems the best thing for them to do at this point would be to grin and bear it and let the PT hang themselves with their own rope.

That is the way that the Australian federal opposition has been doing it for the past year, and it seems to be working a treat. Just shutup and give the government all the rope it asks for, and see what they do with it. Excellent political tactics if you have a little patience. Great idea.

You can't compare Oz politics with Thai politics. You don't have coups there or red revolutionary mobs closing down your capital, throwing blood on your PM's private home, etc.

Yeah but our political parties sack their own members if they come under corruption cloud, and most Australians absolutely would not vote for a politician they thought was corrupt, regardless of party lines. The general population has a very healthy scepticism of your average politician and that's a good thing. Politicians aren't hard to replace.

Russ Hinze?

There is a rumour that after his death, they had a problem finding a coffin large enough, so they gave him an enema and buried him in a shoe-box.

[otherstuff1957]

I haven't bothered to read all 20+ pages of this thread, but I see a lot of the Pro-PT members using the word 'mandate'. The question in my mind, at least, is: which takes precedence, the rule of law or the mandate of the voters?

The PT party holds 53% of the seats in the new parliament. As this is only the second time in Thai history that a party has won a clear majority in a fair election, we can consider this a mandate to rule. However, is it a mandate to ignore existing laws? If so, we could be in for a bumpy ride in the next couple of years.

Hopefully, the noodle nonsense will be put aside and the EC and constitutional court will simply look at the involvement of a banned politician: Thaksin. Given his almost daily Twittering about who he would choose as PM, etc... there is plenty of proof of his involvement.

If PT is indeed dissolved, do they lose their party list seats? or just the party list seats held by party executives. (of course, if PT is dissolved, such legal nitpicking will probably be irrelevant, as the Redshirts will probably burn down the courthouses and the judges' houses and then the judges will suddenly realize that their decision was completely wrong! )

[jdinasia]

[

Ok, so we will put the noodle dish aside. How about you take a stab at answering the question; What is the motive for bringing a "complaint" against the PTP?

Do the people defending the activity honestly believe that the motive is based solely on the accusers' love of Thailand and respect for the electoral process?

Since it is unlikely to result in any true change of government, the apparent motive would be twofold. Attempting to marginalize Thaksin a little bit, and weakening the incoming government a little bit and thus making the opposition a bit stronger.

another 5 year ban on some of these guys ..... not at all a bad thing....

Edited July 9, 2011 by jdinasia

[animatic]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

The 'leaders' of the other 'sore losers' tried to get all their supporters to run to the city with a litre of gasoline to burn Bangkok down.

The dems actions somehow pales in comparison.

They have lost the election and they have even managed to lose the arguement on what happened in May which links to they lost the election. This action just makes them more unpopular. Still they and their decreasing numbers of supporters dont get it, which is very bad for the country unless you want to see single party PTP government for aeons, or a blood bath followed by single party PTP government for aeons.

Your last line looks inevitable no matter how we toss it.

[Crushdepth]

A political "mandate" does not override rule of law. It's that simple. But some people like to think it does.

[scorecard]

...

Is thedistribution of a few bahts worth of noodles really a serious election act violation?

...

It was the local branch of the EC that included the "noodles incident" in their election report. The Democrats have nothing to do with that.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that just, before the election, Pheu Thai asked the EC to disband the Democrats ... because they "criticised it's candidates".

Lets not let a small local incident about noodles distract from the real issues.

I would view dissolution for criticizing candidates as a ridiculous charge.

But letting banned, self exiled and convicted Thaksin control, finance and,

dictate positions and membership positions to the party is an extremely serious charge,

Ok, so we will put the noodle dish aside. How about you take a stab at answering the question; What is the motive for bringing a "complaint" against the PTP?

Do the people defending the activity honestly believe that the motive is based solely on the accusers' love of Thailand and respect for the electoral process?

So I guess your saying that thaksins actions and those of the vast vast majority of the pt members is based on just one thing - their love of Thailand.

[Wallaby]

I would consider it differently if Thaksin's input wasn't known until after the election but his involvement was well known, it was no secret, it wasn't shock news, it was known before the people voted. Yet the people still voted for PTP. This is a huge raspberry to the Dems and they should just admit the people have voted for the devil they know.

[rixalex]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

Unfortunate that it's down to the Dems to bring this case forward, because as you say, i don't think it will make them any more popular, and those against them will be even more strengthened in their resolve.

But the fact is, if electoral laws have been broken, somebody should be raising the question, and if nobody is, i find it hard to blame the Dems for not standing by and letting them get away with it, as you seem to feel they should.

[hammered]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

The 'leaders' of the other 'sore losers' tried to get all their supporters to run to the city with a litre of gasoline to burn Bangkok down.

The dems actions somehow pales in comparison.

They have lost the election and they have even managed to lose the arguement on what happened in May which links to they lost the election. This action just makes them more unpopular. Still they and their decreasing numbers of supporters dont get it, which is very bad for the country unless you want to see single party PTP government for aeons, or a blood bath followed by single party PTP government for aeons.

Your last line looks inevitable no matter how we toss it.

I dont think it is inevitable. The Dems need to get back to examining themselves and policy and changing leadership and culture of party. Avoid the Thaksin issue. Let PTP govern and do whatever they are going to do with Thaksin. If the estblishment are going to rip themsleves apart over this issue, the main opposition party dont have too as well. The Dems need to detach themsleves form Thaksin issues to move forward. Leave it to between government and the legal system. The PTP have their mandate, which the Dems can accept while it is the job of the courts to make sure nothing unconstitutional happens. There are more important things than what happens to Thaksin and a major political party should be thinking of them rather than sinking itself over the same issue they lose on every time. Abhisit has to go as well

[Wallaby]

A political "mandate" does not override rule of law. It's that simple. But some people like to think it does.

I actually think in this instance it does.

It wasn't like his involvement was some big secret, the people knew and the people voted.

[hammered]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

Unfortunate that it's down to the Dems to bring this case forward, because as you say, i don't think it will make them any more popular, and those against them will be even more strengthened in their resolve.

But the fact is, if electoral laws have been broken, somebody should be raising the question, and if nobody is, i find it hard to blame the Dems for not standing by and letting them get away with it, as you seem to feel they should.

Why didnt they raise it at the start of the campaign? They raise it now after losing. Simple answer would seem to be the establishment wanted Thaksin all over the election campaign so when he lost it was clear to his supporters he had lost when involved. But it didnt go that way. By the way, the Dems can stand aside and say nothing. There are plenty of establishment types who could raise this kind of case. Why do the Dems have to damage themselves to raise it?

[OzMick]

I think that the most offensive thing mentioned in the OP is that some clown has accused Yingluck of handing out free bowls of noodles at a rally. The implication is that PTP voters are so stupid that their votes could be bought for a free bowl of noodles. If I was a Thai I would find that racially offensive.

This move by the so-called Democrats was all too predictable. Unless they and the people who skulk behind them catch themselves on they run a serious risk of plunging Thailand into a civil war. The freely expressed will of roughly 60% of the electorate can not be overturned.

Actually it is specifically forbidden in the election laws - and in observed practice PTP voters will take anything free that is offered, no need to be offended.

However what is REALLY stupid is the the politically savvy advisers should suggest that she should do something clearly labelled as out of bounds, unless of course it was a cunning plan to cut loose the ingenue and at the same time agitate their supporters with claims of "double standards" (and it is working, isn't it?).

Umm, it's less than a week, a bit early to start inflating the figures, we don't all have Alzheimer's. Wait a month at least.

[DumFarang]

advanced member we all can see which side your coming from , why di you really wont to give the party another go , they lost no matter what , and having people like you on yr soap box don't help Thailand unless you are one of the rich !

"advanced member" is not a poster's title, it is a descriptor used by many. Your use of pronouns is also confusing, though I'm sure you know what it is that you are attempting to express. The little red line under a word means that you have mis-spelt it.

Better luck next time.

This is TV not his doctoral thesis. I understood his point, so who cares.

[OzMick]

The people were represented after the PPP were banned. These people gave their power to the MPs.

It was the MPs that the people elected that decided not to support PTP (ex-PPP).

And Mr Banharn alluded during the election campaign to the fact that he was 'leant on' to change sides. The small parties were bulied and 'offered incentives' to change sides

Which is much more morally repugnant than buying the seats of small parties, I presume.

[Nacho]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

But they are now the opposition party. Isn't that the opposition parties job to keep the ruling party in check? To let them run free and do as they please would be a stupid move and a slap in the face to everyone who voted for them.

[hammered]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

But they are now the opposition party. Isn't that the opposition parties job to keep the ruling party in check? To let them run free and do as they please would be a stupid move and a slap in the face to everyone who voted for them.

The PTP won the election and havent even formed a government yet and the losers are trying to have them disbanded on a complaint they could have made months ago but didnt. That doesnt look much like check and balance and even some of the soon to be opposition party are distancing themselves from the move

[Crushdepth]

A political "mandate" does not override rule of law. It's that simple. But some people like to think it does.

I actually think in this instance it does.

It wasn't like his involvement was some big secret, the people knew and the people voted.

There are no "exceptions" to rule of law. Otherwise, where does it end? Who gets to decide how much electoral fraud is ok? We have existing electoral laws and the only way deal with fraud is to drop the hammer on the cheats.

Nobody forces politicans to engage in electoral fraud. If they choose to do it and get caught - they have let their supporters down and should only blame themselves.

[whybother]

The PTP won the election and havent even formed a government yet and the losers are trying to have them disbanded on a complaint they could have made months ago but didnt. That doesnt look much like check and balance and even some of the soon to be opposition party are distancing themselves from the move

They could only complain about Thaksin's involvement in the election after the election was called.

They also have until 7 days after the election to lodge any complaints.

Obviously, the longer they waited, the more evidence they would have ... so why not wait?

[jdinasia]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

But they are now the opposition party. Isn't that the opposition parties job to keep the ruling party in check? To let them run free and do as they please would be a stupid move and a slap in the face to everyone who voted for them.

The PTP won the election and havent even formed a government yet and the losers are trying to have them disbanded on a complaint they could have made months ago but didnt. That doesnt look much like check and balance and even some of the soon to be opposition party are distancing themselves from the move

Hammered, I normally agree with you (and I do kind of agree with your take on how this will affect the popularity of the Dems!) They couldn't take this move months ago when it looked as if they would be working with 2 parties guilty of the same thing (if to a lesser degree publicly), It had to wait until after BJT had its own trouble.

I would say that they would have been better off using their friends outside the party to lodge this complaint.

Edited July 9, 2011 by jdinasia

[rixalex]

Why didnt they raise it at the start of the campaign? They raise it now after losing.

I agree this matter should have been looked at before the election, but again, the onus shouldn't have been on the Dems. Someone else should have brought the matter up. They didn't. From the Dems point of view, i guess if they were going to have to report it themselves, the knew they weren't going to be able to do so twice, so best to leave it until the latest possible time when there would be the most evidence.

By the way, the Dems can stand aside and say nothing. There are plenty of establishment types who could raise this kind of case. Why do the Dems have to damage themselves to raise it?

Isn't there a seven day time limit, which we are now at the end of?

[OzMick]

I seriously doubt if only one party broke this sacred election law that some people seem to be so fond of. If it turned out that both PTP and the Democrats had been handing out free noodles to voters, who would govern Thailand then?

The present carry on is 100% about power, 0% about respect for the law. Anyone who can't see this needs a reality check.

My irish friend, you are making the assumption that the Democrats are stupid enough to break a clearly expressed electoral law. That honour belongs to PTP, and the woman who came from nowhere (excusable because of her total lack of experience - I wonder if she'll cry)

[animatic]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

Unfortunate that it's down to the Dems to bring this case forward, because as you say, i don't think it will make them any more popular, and those against them will be even more strengthened in their resolve.

But the fact is, if electoral laws have been broken, somebody should be raising the question, and if nobody is, i find it hard to blame the Dems for not standing by and letting them get away with it, as you seem to feel they should.

Why didnt they raise it at the start of the campaign? They raise it now after losing. Simple answer would seem to be the establishment wanted Thaksin all over the election campaign so when he lost it was clear to his supporters he had lost when involved. But it didnt go that way. By the way, the Dems can stand aside and say nothing. There are plenty of establishment types who could raise this kind of case. Why do the Dems have to damage themselves to raise it?

Because they are another legal party in the election.

The other small parties are more interesting in

getting a slice of pie so won't rock the boat..

I doubt they have done any more damage than they already had.

There also really wasn't a significant change in Dems numbers,

just not the large gain they hoped for.

Yes there may have been a miscalculation letting Thaksin be

all over the party and not calling PTP about it before the election.

Then again that could have been seen as hypocritical

or simply alienating to coalition partners, so just couldn't be done then.

Edited July 9, 2011 by animatic

[Mitker]

Impressive how many will just oppose the move on the ground PTP won the majority of votes.

The rationale would be the same would they have won 5%: the law is there to be respected whatever your popularity.

But considering themselves about the law is something a wealthy family that likes flying abroad, and their cronies, proved too many times already.

I don't really think the move will ease Thailand situation but don't see anything illegitimate in it.

[Wallaby]

A political "mandate" does not override rule of law. It's that simple. But some people like to think it does.

I actually think in this instance it does.

It wasn't like his involvement was some big secret, the people knew and the people voted.

There are no "exceptions" to rule of law. Otherwise, where does it end? Who gets to decide how much electoral fraud is ok? We have existing electoral laws and the only way deal with fraud is to drop the hammer on the cheats.

Nobody forces politicans to engage in electoral fraud. If they choose to do it and get caught - they have let their supporters down and should only blame themselves.

'no exceptions to the rule of law'.............in THAILAND. hahahahahahahaha

I hate to tell you this but there ARE exceptions to the rule of law. Not everyone who does something illegal is charged.

There is a difference between doing something and being caught, and doing something everyone knows about and yet still being voted in. Therefore, if the voters knew about it I can't see how they have been let down. They still voted for them with this knowledge.

In my view, since Thaksins actions were well known and the people still voted for it then it is not in the public interest to prosecute.

[DumFarang]

A political "mandate" does not override rule of law. It's that simple. But some people like to think it does.

This is where the rubber meets the road isn't it? What appeared to be a legal election is followed by a perfectly legal set of charges issued to the EC. This is why we have those big buildings with judges in them. The Dems are acting within the law, and I commend them. If this were the red shirts something would be on fire.

[hammered]

Why didnt they raise it at the start of the campaign? They raise it now after losing.

I agree this matter should have been looked at before the election, but again, the onus shouldn't have been on the Dems. Someone else should have brought the matter up. They didn't. From the Dems point of view, i guess if they were going to have to report it themselves, the knew they weren't going to be able to do so twice, so best to leave it until the latest possible time when there would be the most evidence.

By the way, the Dems can stand aside and say nothing. There are plenty of establishment types who could raise this kind of case. Why do the Dems have to damage themselves to raise it?

Isn't there a seven day time limit, which we are now at the end of?

Repeatedly embroiling themsleves in Thaksin stuff only damages the party. The country needs its biggest opposition party to be viable. Leave the establishment to fight their battles while being an opposition for all the country. Hasnt Chamlong and a woman form Nakhon Sawan already filed complaints? Why are the Dems so stupid as to get embroiled in this again. They need to be breaking the image that they are the lapdogs of the establishment and show they are an opposition for all the people including those who voted PTP. Thksin just becomes a massive distraction and a huge albatross around the necks of the Dems. Just move on time

[DumFarang]

Totally stupid move by the Democrats. They need to learn that all these attacks make them more unpopular and less likely to lead any government. It is time to accept the defeat and for the Dem party to take a long hard look at its own failures and unpopularity and work on these so that Thailand can have a viable alternative for government in the not so distant future.

To just blame others continually for your defeat is to never move forward.

Initially Abhisit did the right thing in congratulating and stating he wouldnt stand against Yingluck etc. Now we are back to the Dems just seeming like bad losers and driving people further into PTP support.

Unfortunate that it's down to the Dems to bring this case forward, because as you say, i don't think it will make them any more popular, and those against them will be even more strengthened in their resolve.

But the fact is, if electoral laws have been broken, somebody should be raising the question, and if nobody is, i find it hard to blame the Dems for not standing by and letting them get away with it, as you seem to feel they should.

The Dems don't have much left to lose at this point. Why not go down swinging?

[Bakseedaa]

Legitimate? If the judiciary were neutral, which they are not (yet), how could they defend dissolving the party with such a mandate from the people? Parliament is the law, and the people have chosen a new parliament haven't they?

You are dead right, and PTP won outrightly, But, Mr Thaksin should have taken a back seat here and shut his mouth, he is a convicted felon on the run...and yet everyone knows because of his Giant ego, that he is still running PTP. I feel so sorry for Thailand but did see this coming ... reconciliation is a steep hill to climb. But the constitution is the law and it has not only been broken, it has been totally disregarded... Where does it go from here..? Civil war..?

[rixalex]

In my view, since Thaksins actions were well known and the people still voted for it then it is not in the public interest to prosecute.

So in the future, any politician who gets banned, knows that providing they can win the vote, they are free to ignore the ban?

[happysanook]

I thought the people have chosen already ? In all "Democracy" voice of people is usually legitimate . I understand they might be disappointed but I don think it will help to reunited Thais.

This.

Too ironic.