Tiger Retro Sidecar.. Legality ?

[LivinLOS]

Phuket police are being clear.

They say even a fully registered saleang is not registered for passenger use. Yes they can be registered, but only to carry goods not people.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/news/detail.asp?id=10649

they list the exact statute that says that even tho sidecars can be registered, its for goods not people.

Trying to get a response from Tiger.

[katabeachbum]

yepp, very interested to see a Retro samlor book, registered for 2 or more?

[LivinLOS]

I am absolutely sure that the tiger is legally registered as a samlor / saleang.. They went to great effort and I firmly believe thats correct. 99% of samlors on the road are not registered (tho I do know a place that does legally reg high spec ones).

But what the police are saying is, even when legally regged as a 3 wheeler.. the sidecar cannot carry a passenger. Its a goods carrying device only.

Thats contra to Tigers assurances of legality for passenger and the seat its equipped with. As you say, this should be interesting.

[ScubaBuddha]

This was an issues an answers question back in 2001:

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=168

as well as just last May, where the issue of Tiger is addressed:

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/details.asp?id=1214

Note that in 2001 the Deputy Inspector for Traffic in Phuket Town basically stated that they allowed a hardship concession to people using them for a living. Now farangs are exploiting that when no hardship exists. Even farang owned dive shops have/are using them to transport customers and gear. I feel so embarrassed for the farangs I see driving these unsafe and illegal things around Rawaii and Chalong. To get to a point where you have lost all self respect...so sad.

What's worse is there is a Big Bike Highway Police Volunteer in Rawaii who has fashioned a sidecar for his farang wife to ride in, complete with Highway Police Volunteer stickers. Since the editor of PG is asking, next time I see him, I will be snapping a pic. People like that give a bad name for all us foreign police volunteers. It's one thing to use an unsafe and illegal sidecar in order to feed your family, and another to do it as a farang just because your a cheap charlie and don;t want to buy a car or ride 2 ppl to a bike, yet another to do it under the color of authority. Shameful.

Edited July 9, 2011 by ScubaBuddha

[thaicbr]

Scubba... Whats shameful is that the police here do not adhere to the law of the land themselves.

And PHUKET SEEMS TO BE THE WORST.

2001 WAS a long time ago.. what new laws and regulations (different to statute laws) have been introduced.

It has been stated many times how different laws and regulations are used in the STATE of Phuket compared to the country of Thailand .

PS who says they are unsafe... you or an auto engineer?

"But what the police are saying is, even when legally regged as a 3 wheeler.. the sidecar cannot carry a passenger. Its a goods carrying device only."

Living.... lets change that to 'what the Phuket police are saying'

Edited July 9, 2011 by thaicbr

[LivinLOS]

Both those confused and conflicting answers still dont nail it tho.

Theres a difference between being legal to register, which Tiger I am sure do, and even other saleangs if tested and registered at the time of the original reg, can be done.. And being legal to carry passengers.

99% of the ones on the road are not legal, for passengers or otherwise. But whats interesting is are the 1% that are registered legally allowed to carry passengers. The police guy quoted makes it clear that according to law it cant carry one. I am curious to know if that is true or not.

I know a disabled guy, who drives a silverwing maxi scooter and 100% legal western quality sidecar, of course with lights and brakes and all safety features, which he had imported and registered at great expense. Is he now not to use the side car for passengers.

[Garry]

It would be nice to know if correctly manufactured sidecar outfits would ever be legal in Thailand. I was looking at buying a CJ750 Sidecar outfit, but my have to pull the plug on that.

The sidecar can be fitted on either side at the factory, depending on the country regulations

Edited July 9, 2011 by Garry

[LeCharivari]

The Retro and sidecar book clearly shows "3 wheels" and "3 seats" on page 4, and it contains the VIN number for the sidecar as well as the bike. Admittedly it doesn't specify where the third seat is, but as the motorbike clearly only has two seats even in Phuket they would be hard-pressed to claim that the seat in the sidecar was not the one for the third person!

In the case of the Tiger Retro and sidecar, at least, the statement by "PTLO Chief Teerayout Prasertphol" that "Passenger transport by salaeng is prohibited under Section 14 of the Motor Vehicle Act of of 1979" (as reported by the Phuket Gazette) is incorrect. Section 14 is a general "catch-all" that only says that "The owner must not modify the registered motor vehicle in such a way that it fails to meet registration requirements" - the Tiger Retro and sidecar is not breaking Section 14 as it was supplied as a combination by the factory and registered that way by the DLT.

It is possible that some provincial DLTs may be unwilling to register the Retro and sidecar (mine was, so it was registered in Bangkok instead to avoid further delays), but that is all

The rig is also taxed as a motorbike and sidecar combination, at 150 baht (!) per year instead of 100 baht.

As far as I know the Tiger Retro and sidecar is the only one registered and approved to carry a passenger, and it has to be registered as such when first registered (the sidecar cannot be added later, even to a Retro) so I think you'll have to put your plans on hold, Garry.

(edit: sorry for the poor scan, that's the best I can do at the moment)

Edited July 9, 2011 by LeCharivari

[Richard-BKK]

The Thai Land Traffic Act says the following - Section 121 The rider of the motorcycle shall sit on the saddle, provided for the motor cycle rider. If the competent officer specifies in the registration to be able to carry passengers, the passenger shall ride on the pillion at the back of the motor cycle rider and on the seat provided for the passenger or in the side car.

In Thailand a side-car can be specified, Section 4 of the Thai Land Traffic Act says - Motorcycle means a vehicle that is driven by an engine power or electric or other power and has not more than two wheels and, if attached by a side-car, has not more than an additional wheel.

With section 121 we can read clearly that the passenger can ride on the seat in the side-car... as long as side-car is officially registered...

------------

The article posted by the OP speaks about the following Sections of the Thai Land Traffic Act;

Section 14 - Motorcycle means a vehicle that is driven by an engine power or electric or other power and has not more than two wheels and, if attached by a side-car, has not more than an additional wheel.

Section 60 - In stopping or parking a vehicle in a roadway outside a municipal area, the driver shall stop or park the vehicle at a place being visible to the drivers of other vehicles within not less distance than one hundred and fifty meters.

-----------

I have no idea how Section 14 or 60 have anything to do with a officially registered motorcycle with side-car.....

Edited July 9, 2011 by Richard-BKK

[Richard-BKK]

Also the Tiger Motor is not the only one who builds or sells legal motorcycles with side-cars in Thailand. Tiger probably has one of the best looking motorcycle with side-car outfits but still they not alone.

[eezergood]

It would be nice to know if correctly manufactured sidecar outfits would ever be legal in Thailand. I was looking at buying a CJ750 Sidecar outfit, but my have to pull the plug on that.

The sidecar can be fitted on either side at the factory, depending on the country regulations

I miss my CJ750, in Beijing they are everywhere! but too get 1 here in LOS forget it!

[CMX]

Let's see. We are depending upon the accuracy of a report in the Phuket Gazette, a publication known for its complete and accurate reports. None of your leaving out essential facts with them!

Also, we hear this when citizens are using the (unlicensed) sidecars for political action. From a Thai police commander, who, as is the case with all others of such a station, would know the law better than the back of his hand and never deviate from the right and true, even through ignorance.

Also, Phuket is unique, not to say strange, community with atypical visitors and expat residents, a world away from most of the planet.

Nope. If I had a Retro plus sidecar, I'd allow people inside the sidecar. Might be fined, but OK in law.

[guzzi850m2]

On my Tiger Retro/W side car we sometimes ride 2 kids and 2 adults on it (Pattaya) and never got stopped at police check points, but only a smile at the mad farang driving his whole famlie around wearing a HD cap.

However my wife have been stopped resently on it, and warned that she must wear a helmet but no mention of our 1.5 year old boy in the side car with his cap on (he loves sitting in it, going places, he-he).

[thaicbr]

Also the Tiger Motor is not the only one who builds or sells legal motorcycles with side-cars in Thailand. Tiger probably has one of the best looking motorcycle with side-car outfits but still they not alone.

Richard.. who are the others then?

[katabeachbum]

The Retro and sidecar book clearly shows "3 wheels" and "3 seats" on page 4, and it contains the VIN number for the sidecar as well as the bike. Admittedly it doesn't specify where the third seat is, but as the motorbike clearly only has two seats even in Phuket they would be hard-pressed to claim that the seat in the sidecar was not the one for the third person!

In the case of the Tiger Retro and sidecar, at least, the statement by "PTLO Chief Teerayout Prasertphol" that "Passenger transport by salaeng is prohibited under Section 14 of the Motor Vehicle Act of of 1979" (as reported by the Phuket Gazette) is incorrect. Section 14 is a general "catch-all" that only says that "The owner must not modify the registered motor vehicle in such a way that it fails to meet registration requirements" - the Tiger Retro and sidecar is not breaking Section 14 as it was supplied as a combination by the factory and registered that way by the DLT.

It is possible that some provincial DLTs may be unwilling to register the Retro and sidecar (mine was, so it was registered in Bangkok instead to avoid further delays), but that is all

The rig is also taxed as a motorbike and sidecar combination, at 150 baht (!) per year instead of 100 baht.

As far as I know the Tiger Retro and sidecar is the only one registered and approved to carry a passenger, and it has to be registered as such when first registered (the sidecar cannot be added later, even to a Retro) so I think you'll have to put your plans on hold, Garry.

(edit: sorry for the poor scan, that's the best I can do at the moment)

Thanks

It is a 3 wheeler seating 3, homoleg, so local DLTs must register it as such when docs presented without inspecting samlor

[Richard-BKK]

Also the Tiger Motor is not the only one who builds or sells legal motorcycles with side-cars in Thailand. Tiger probably has one of the best looking motorcycle with side-car outfits but still they not alone.

Richard.. who are the others then?

Stallion offers two Stallion SME models, which are also official registered as motorcycle (two-wheel) with side-car (additional one-wheel), they are so official that the Thai Royal Police Tourist police devision has several, Station Buddy SME Standard-R's in service (with one police officer traveling in the side-car...

[thaicbr]

Also the Tiger Motor is not the only one who builds or sells legal motorcycles with side-cars in Thailand. Tiger probably has one of the best looking motorcycle with side-car outfits but still they not alone.

Richard.. who are the others then?

Stallion offers two Stallion SME models, which are also official registered as motorcycle (two-wheel) with side-car (additional one-wheel), they are so official that the Thai Royal Police Tourist police devision has several, Station Buddy SME Standard-R's in service (with one police officer traveling in the side-car...

Yes. ok i knew about those Stallion sidecars because they are made by..........................................................Tiger!

If you can get a picture of the sidecar on the road with passengers then the Phuket people could just carry that with them to show the police.

Edited July 10, 2011 by thaicbr

[Richard-BKK]

The Thai law says ---

มาตรา 121 ผู้ขับขี่รถจักรยานยนตร์ต้องนั่งคร่อมบนอานที่จัดไว้สำหรับ ให้ผู้ขับขี่รถจักรยานยนตร์นั่ง ถ้าพนักงานเจ้าหน้าที่ได้กำหนดไว้ในใบคู่มือ จดทะเบียนให้บรรทุกคนโดยสารได้ คนโดยสารจะต้องนั่งซ้อนท้ายผู้ขับขี่รถ จักรยานยนตร์ และนั่งบนอานที่จัดไว้สำหรับคนโดยสารหรือนั่งในที่นั่งพ่วงข้าง

Which roughly translate into...

Section 121 The rider of a motorcycle shall sit on the saddle, provided for the motorcycle rider. If the competent officer specifies in the registration to be able to carry passengers, the passenger shall ride at the back seat provided for the passenger, or in the side-car.

(The maximum fine for failing article/section 121 is 500 THB)

[ScubaBuddha]

...they are so official that the Thai Royal Police Tourist police devision has several...

Unfortunately that is rarely an indicator of a vehicle being legal. It's just as often an indicator of the contrary. (See my earlier comments)

[HDRIDER]

Police in Phuket use ATV,,, you think they are road legal????

[LeCharivari]

(edited)

It is possible that some provincial DLTs may be unwilling to register the Retro and sidecar (mine was, so it was registered in Bangkok instead to avoid further delays), but that is all

Thanks

It is a 3 wheeler seating 3, homoleg, so local DLTs must register it as such when docs presented without inspecting samlor

In hindsight, when I said "unwilling" I should have said "reticent". Chonburi (my local DLT) would have registered the Retro and sidecar but they required additional paperwork from both the main DLT in Bangkok and Tiger motors, as well as an inspection of the sidecar to check that it matched the engineer's report and technical drawing. All quite possible, but it was simply much easier (at least for me!) to pass all the paperwork and the leg-work (but not the bike) back to Tiger who did it all for me. Its now registered in Bangkok (on a Bangkok plate) with my correct address in Chonburi, which seems the simplest solution.

[thaicbr]

Police in Phuket use ATV,,, you think they are road legal????

off course they are if the Phuket police are using them.... My goodness what are you suggesting.. that the Thai POLICE break the law of the land

[BigBikeBKK]

Did you guys sort this out yet? Busy Monday but if you like I can scan my Green Book for my Tiger Retro with Sidecar so you can see it's legally registered as a 3 wheel motorcycle.

[katabeachbum]

Did you guys sort this out yet? Busy Monday but if you like I can scan my Green Book for my Tiger Retro with Sidecar so you can see it's legally registered as a 3 wheel motorcycle.

we v got a book in post 8, but number of seats is not readable, but taking posters word for it

[LeCharivari]

For anyone who can't read the original, double left click on the scan and you get a full screen version (16 downloads so far!).

[katabeachbum]

For anyone who can't read the original, double left click on the scan and you get a full screen version (16 downloads so far!).

17 I guess, cause I just did it again

however only the top of seating number is visible, thats position #28 on page 4, and as 2 and 3 is identical upper part, its not possible to say from scan

[LeCharivari]

# 28 says " 2 ", but as the Retro and sidecar is legal to drive without the sidecar attached this could mean " 2 " on the bike or " 2 " with one on the bike and one in the sidecar once the sidecar is attached.

I checked with the Chonburi and Banglamung DLTs who, after checking the original papers and type approval, told me that the rig was homologated and it was legal to carry 3, including one as a passenger in the sidecar, as did the local police once when they stopped me at a checkpoint having (so they told me) checked the registration papers with their HQ in Chonburi; since then they have just glanced at the papers, smiled, and waved me on.

I have never tried carrying 3 so have never actually put this to the test (nor, to be honest, would I want to as at 110cc it is hardly made for that and I doubt if the brakes would be adequate if I had somehow got up a hill with 3 and was heading down the other side, so I am happy with " 2 ") so ultimately I suppose it is all down to the local DLT and the local police as to how they interpret the rules and how far you (or they) are willing or able to insist that the type approval is checked.

Sorry that doesn't really answer the original question with anything definitive, but like so many things each province (particularly Phuket) seems to interpret the rules to suit themselves.