How Do Animals Fit In?

[sbk]

How can a person who does these things claim to be Buddhist?

i dont think these people do claim to be buddhists any more than the british thief or hooligan claims to be a christian.

they may go through the motions of robotic observance during rare visits to places of worship , but they certainly do not live their lives following the precepts of the religion they were born into.

they just happen to be run of the mill yobs living in a christian or buddhist country.

OK. That, I can accept Thanks for the clarification

[chownah]

I've noticed the way some Thais treat animals though it is really quite cruel. We live with three dogs and yesterday I stopped the children punching them 

They also got a puppy the other day as a gift for my Step-mums brother. Her sister has dropped it one hundred times and when she does they all find it funny! My Dads other ex Thai wife had a dog in England, she used to beat it with a wooden stick everyday if it didn't eat it's food. The dog unfortunatley grew up to be so nasty we had to put it down 

My step-mum's other sister also got a puppy and threw it out when it was older because it wasn't cute anymore.

If they want to buy a dog then why don't they learn how to look after it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seems people like to pick on the Thais here, but forget about the tract records of their own countries... Its not about Religion, the simple fact is you get bad people no matter what country or religion they are... There are just as many things happening to animals and people in the western world... But then Hypocrasy comes in all forms!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the Buddhist forum discussing the Buddhist faith/practice in Thailand. Not the Christian forum in the USA or the Muslim forum in Saudi Arabia etc etc. I hope you see the point.

I guess my problem isn't the neglect, which, yes bothers me, but I can see where it is coming from. But I have seen active cruelty towards animals and can't really understand how this can be justified by the teachings of Buddha. I have seen taxis swerve towards a dog on the road, I have seen people actively harassing (if not downright torturing) animals. Of course, it isn't everybody but it does happen. How can a person who does these things claim to be Buddhist?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To the best of my knowledge, cruely towards animals can not be justified by the Buddha's teachings. I have only recently started studying Buddhism and so I'm not well read in the scriptures. My impression of the Buddhist scriptures is that they do not contain detailed accounts of what is moral and what is not. Buddhism is not a religion and it does not rely heavily on the concept of morality and has no concept of sin or blame as far as I know. Buddhism is about changing how you view and experience the world. The method of how to do this is documented fairly well. Human tendencies are discussed in general terms and moral valuations are not applied to these tendencies or human actions. If someone actively mistreats animals then (in my opinion) there is something else going on in that persons mind that is linked with the tendency and it is likely that Buddhist practices would change that persons view of life so that they would see the problem and stop. Buddhism does not use morality as a means to change people. Buddhism lays out a means for understanding what happens and changing our world view and behaviour but it is done by learning about things, not by instilling fear or intimidation. Also, Buddhist practice is usually not considered suitable for people with serious mental problems.

After reading what I have already written I would like to say that it seems that many people who have posted on this topic want to learn more about Buddhism. For those who would like to learn, I suggest that asking questions on topics like this one is probably not the best way even though it is interesting. If you really want to know about things like this then the best thing to do is to start a casual study of Buddhism. I don't have something to recommend as a beginning read but perhaps some of the more experienced Buddhist forum posters could jump in and recommend something.

Edited October 25, 2005 by chownah

[taxexile]

Also, Buddhist practice is usually not considered suitable for people with serious mental problems.

thats very interesting , just the opposite of christianity and islam , where the possession of serious mental problems seems to be the most important qualification in order to be able to practice or teach the abovementioned religions.

[sabaijai]

Also, Buddhist practice is usually not considered suitable for people with serious mental problems.

thats very interesting , just the opposite of christianity and islam , where the possession of serious mental problems seems to be the most important qualification in order to be able to practice or teach the abovementioned religions.

[camerata]

Buddhism is not a religion...

A lot of Buddhists would disagree with you there. It's misunderstood enough that Ajahn Summedho addressed this point right at the beginning of his book, The Mind and the Way:

It is tempting to think that we understand religion because it is so ingrained in our cultural outlook. However, it's useful to contemplate and reflect on the true aim, goal or purpose of religion.

Sometimes people regard religion as belief in God or gods, so religion becomes identified with the theistic attitude of a particular religious form or convention. Often Buddhism is regarded by theistic religions as an atheistic form, or not even a religion at all. It's seen as a philosophy or psychology, because Buddhism doesn't come from a theistic position. It's not based on a metaphysical or doctrinal position, but on an existential experience common to all humanity - the experience of suffering. The Buddhist premise is that by reflecting, by contemplating, and by understanding that common human experience, we can transcend all mental delusions that create human suffering.

The word religion comes from the Latin word religio, which means a bond. It suggests a binding to the divine, which engulfs one's whole being. To be truly religious means you must bind yourself to the divine, or to the ultimate reality, and engage your whole being in that bond, to the point where an ultimate realisation is possible. All religions have words like "liberation" and "salvation." Words of this nature convey freedom from delusion, complete and utter freedom, and total understanding of ultimate reality. In Buddhism we call this enlightenment.

From http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha164.htm .

[chownah]

Buddhism is not a religion...

A lot of Buddhists would disagree with you there. It's misunderstood enough that Ajahn Summedho addressed this point right at the beginning of his book, The Mind and the Way:

It is tempting to think that we understand religion because it is so ingrained in our cultural outlook. However, it's useful to contemplate and reflect on the true aim, goal or purpose of religion.

Sometimes people regard religion as belief in God or gods, so religion becomes identified with the theistic attitude of a particular religious form or convention. Often Buddhism is regarded by theistic religions as an atheistic form, or not even a religion at all. It's seen as a philosophy or psychology, because Buddhism doesn't come from a theistic position. It's not based on a metaphysical or doctrinal position, but on an existential experience common to all humanity - the experience of suffering. The Buddhist premise is that by reflecting, by contemplating, and by understanding that common human experience, we can transcend all mental delusions that create human suffering.

The word religion comes from the Latin word religio, which means a bond. It suggests a binding to the divine, which engulfs one's whole being. To be truly religious means you must bind yourself to the divine, or to the ultimate reality, and engage your whole being in that bond, to the point where an ultimate realisation is possible. All religions have words like "liberation" and "salvation." Words of this nature convey freedom from delusion, complete and utter freedom, and total understanding of ultimate reality. In Buddhism we call this enlightenment.

From http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha164.htm .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the information....I'm sorry that I might have lead people astray by not identifying my bias in my statements that Buddhism is not a religion. I guess my operational definition of religion does not include Buddhism but I was unaware that some people do have a definition for 'religion' that includes Buddhism. I guess my main concern is that people might get the false idea that Buddhist doctrine ascribes the traits of a God to the Buddha. I have never seen a scriptural reference that would even remotely hint at such a thing and I have read some that to me at least clearly indicate the opposite. Does anyone know of a scriptural reference that might indicate that the Buddha is a God or should be held up as an object of worship?....perhaps I'm wrong about this too.

Edited October 25, 2005 by chownah

[Judge]

Buddha never claimed to be God, in fact he claimed the opposite.

Buddhism is a philosophy.

chownah is closer to the truth here.

[sabaijai]

Buddha never claimed to be God, in fact he claimed the opposite.

Buddhism is a philosophy.

chownah is closer to the truth here.

Buddhist doctrine and terminology

Is Buddhism a religion or a philosophy?

The Buddha referred to his teachings simply as Dhamma-vinaya — "the doctrine and discipline" — but for centuries people have tried to categorize the teachings in various ways, trying to fit them into the prevailing molds of cultural, philosophical, and religious thought. Buddhism is an ethical system — a way of life — that leads to a very specific goal and that possesses some aspects of both religion and philosophy:

It is a philosophy.

Like most philosophies, Buddhism attempts to frame the complexities of human existence in a way that reassures us that there is, in fact, some underlying order to the Universe. In the Four Noble Truths the Buddha crisply summarizes our predicament: there is suffering, it has a cause, it has an end, and there is a way to reach the end. The teachings on kamma provide a thorough and logically self-consistent description of the nature of cause-and-effect. And even the Buddhist view of cosmology, which some may at first find farfetched, is a logical extension of the law of kamma. According to the Dhamma, a deep and unshakable logic pervades the world.

It is not a philosophy.

Unlike most philosophical systems, which rely on speculation and the power of reason to arrive at logical truths, Buddhism relies on the direct observation of one's personal experience and on honing certain skills in order to gain true understanding and wisdom. Idle speculation has no place in Buddhist practice. Although studying in the classroom, reading books, and engaging in spirited debate can play a vital part in developing a cognitive understanding of basic Buddhist concepts, the heart of Buddhism can never be realized this way. The Dhamma is not an abstract system of thought designed to delight the intellect; it is a roadmap to be used, one whose essential purpose is to lead the practitioner to the ultimate goal, nibbana.

It is a religion.

At the heart of each of the world's great religions lies a transcendent ideal around which its doctrinal principles orbit. In Buddhism this truth is nibbana, the hallmark of the cessation of suffering and stress, a truth of utter transcendence that stands in singular distinction from anything we might encounter in our ordinary sensory experience. Nibbana is the sine qua non of Buddhism, the guiding star and ultimate goal towards which all the Buddha's teachings point. Because it aims at such a lofty transcendent ideal, we might fairly call Buddhism a religion.

It is not a religion.

In stark contrast to the world's other major religions, however, Buddhism invokes no divinity, no supreme Creator or supreme Self, no Holy Spirit or omniscient loving God to whom we might appeal for salvation.1 Instead, Buddhism calls for us to hoist ourselves up by our own bootstraps: to develop the discernment we need to distinguish between those qualities within us that are unwholesome and those that are truly noble and good, and to learn how to nourish the good ones and expunge the bad. This is the path to Buddhism's highest perfection, nibbana. Not even the Buddha can take you to that goal; you alone must do the work necessary to complete the journey:

"Therefore, Ananda, be islands unto yourselves, refuges unto yourselves, seeking no external refuge; with the Dhamma as your island, the Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge."

[DN 16]

Despite its non-theistic nature, however, Buddhist practice does call for a certain kind of faith. It is not blind faith, an uncritical acceptance of the Buddha's word as transmitted through scripture. Instead it is saddha, a confidence born of taking refuge in the Triple Gem; it is a willingness to trust that the Dhamma, when practiced diligently, will lead to the rewards promised by the Buddha. Saddha is a provisional acceptance of the teachings, that is ever subject to critical evaluation during the course of one's practice, and which must be balanced by one's growing powers of discernment. For many Buddhists, this faith is expressed and reinforced through traditional devotional practices, such as bowing before a Buddha statue and reciting passages from the early Pali texts. Despite a superficial resemblance to the rites of many theistic religions, however, these activities are neither prayers nor pleas for salvation directed towards a transcendent Other. They are instead useful and inspiring gestures of humility and respect for the profound nobility and worth of the Triple Gem.

Note

1. According to Buddhist cosmology, every living being dwells in one of thirty-one distinct "planes," of which our familiar human plane is but one. Some of these realms are home to beings (the devas) with unusual powers and extraordinarily subtle and refined physical bodies — or even no body at all. Their god-like status is, however, short-lived; like all living beings, they are mortal and ultimately subject to death and rebirth in other planes according to the purity and skillfulness of their actions (kamma). One of these devas, the Great Brahma, is so clouded by his own delusion that he believes himself to be the all-powerful, all-seeing creator of the universe (see DN 11).

See also:

"The Dhamma: Is it a Philosophy?" in Buddhism in a Nutshell, by Narada Thera

"Is it a Religion?" in Buddhism in a Nutshell, by Narada Thera

"Two Faces of the Dhamma," by Bhikkhu Bodhi

"The Five Spiritual Faculties," by Bhikkhu Bodhi

"Opening the Door to the Dhamma: Respect in Buddhist Thought & Practice," by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

"The Road to Nirvana is Paved with Skillful Intentions," by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.

religion or philosophy?

[Abandon]

Seems people like to pick on the Thais here, but forget about the tract records of their own countries... Its not about Religion, the simple fact is you get bad people no matter what country or religion they are... There are just as many things happening to animals and people in the western world... But then Hypocrasy comes in all forms!

This is the Buddhist forum discussing the Buddhist faith/practice in Thailand. Not the Christian forum in the USA or the Muslim forum in Saudi Arabia etc etc. I hope you see the point.

I guess my problem isn't the neglect, which, yes bothers me, but I can see where it is coming from. But I have seen active cruelty towards animals and can't really understand how this can be justified by the teachings of Buddha. I have seen taxis swerve towards a dog on the road, I have seen people actively harassing (if not downright torturing) animals. Of course, it isn't everybody but it does happen. How can a person who does these things claim to be Buddhist?

Buddhism is not a stick to beat people with

Also, Buddhist practice is usually not considered suitable for people with serious mental problems.

thats very interesting , just the opposite of christianity and islam , where the possession of serious mental problems seems to be the most important qualification in order to be able to practice or teach the abovementioned religions.

Anyway - I have seen plenty of foxhunts, no one ever asked how they can do this in a Christian country.

[sbk]

Christianity doesn't espouse not killing animals if you aren't going to eat them as Buddhism does.

[robitusson]

Religion. Also possibly from the word religare to restrain.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

I've noticed the way some Thais treat animals though it is really quite cruel. We live with three dogs and yesterday I stopped the children punching them 

They also got a puppy the other day as a gift for my Step-mums brother. Her sister has dropped it one hundred times and when she does they all find it funny! My Dads other ex Thai wife had a dog in England, she used to beat it with a wooden stick everyday if it didn't eat it's food. The dog unfortunatley grew up to be so nasty we had to put it down 

My step-mum's other sister also got a puppy and threw it out when it was older because it wasn't cute anymore.

If they want to buy a dog then why don't they learn how to look after it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I once had a Thai girlfriend that shared the same mentality when it came to animals.

Very childish and with no responsibility or consideration for the loris, parrot, kitten, turtle, whatever the flavour of the week was.

I was tempted to have her put down.

Edited October 26, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp