Who Do You Think You Are?

[marisa808]

This is a bit of a spin-off from another recent thread,which got me thinking. The question I would like to pose is one ofself-conception, and of cultural identity. It was raised by some members in theaforementioned post that they would not like to date a Thai woman who wasraised in the West. But the question I would like to pose is: what makes awoman ‘Thai’ or ‘Western’ in your eyes?

It is a question which I have often struggled with myself(WARNING – COMPLETE SELF-INDULGENCE AHEAD), being Thai, but being raised forthe most part abroad. Would YOU class me as being Thai or Western? ...

My parents worked for an International company, whichstationed them abroad in the West to work, where I was born, returning to Asiafor 7 years, where I attended an International school. When I was 11, we movedback to the West. I have visited Thailand every year, usually during the summerholidays, for a total duration of about 3 months a year, so I suppose I wasraised with the values of both cultures. I am now 22 years old.

Is it values and attitudes which make us Thai or Western? Iwas raised in a very liberal society, but by very traditional and strict Thaiparents. I believe in the strong family unit, I believe in respecting and adeferential attitude to one’s elders, I believe that a woman should be a woman(i.e. not buying into the ‘ladette’ culture, nor a man-hating feminist strandof thought). I am a Buddhist, I am fluent in Thai, I read Thai newspapersonline, and, on a more frivolous note, I indulge in Thai TV soaps sometimeswhen I am here! But I also believe in equality and freedom of choice for women –to be able to have a choice (a real, informed choice) to be a working woman, tobe a house-wife, to be both, to beneither - to be whatever they want to be.

I love to read, to write, to learn – about the world, aboutpolitics, about different cultures, about religion, about social and economicissues. I studied Political Science in my undergraduate degree and I amcompleting a post-graduate course in Law. I want to be fulfilled and stimulatedintellectually, professionally. However, I also want to have a family in thefuture, I want to be able to take care of my parents as they get older.Ideally, I would like both, but I know in reality, ‘something’s gotta give’,even if it is just 51% career, 49% family, or 80% family and 20% career, there will be always be a slight imbalance, even at best. Withmy current partner, when we spend time together, I do most of the cooking andcleaning, he does most of the DIY and decorating etc, so I suppose, in thatsense, we occupy traditional roles. However, these roles are malleable and changeable.I would like to believe that we are equals – though not (nor should we be) the same.

I have been writing in large part, in a vastly generalisednature, but let me now turn to real ‘hard-core’ stereotypes of Thai women,which some may hold to be true. Firstly, the image of Thai women as submissiveand deferential to their partners, being more feminine and concerned abouttheir appearance than their Western counterparts. I care about my appearance, Ibelieve a woman should dress and act with class and modesty, I believe that it,on balance, is more important for a woman to be concerned with her appearancethan a man with his. However, I believe women much have more to offer thanbeing a mother, than being a wife, than being a pretty play-thing for men to lookat and enjoy. I believe and want to be capableof supporting myself and my family (parents, children etc) without a man, butequally I want to be part of a relationship where the man desires and is ableto take care of me – NOT necessarily in a financial sense. Secondly, someespouse the view that Thai women are not interested in cultural or intellectualpursuits, and it is often said that Thai women don’t seem to enjoy reading atall. Does being interested in all these things make me more Western then, insome people’s eyes?

I can only imagine that luk-kreung’s are even less easily ‘culturally’defined than me – as they are equal parts Thai and Western. But perhaps theinability to ‘categorise’ them is acceptable, as they are, biologically speaking,really ‘half’ of each!!

I believe that many on this forum are at least a decadeolder than me, and an even greater majority are probably vastly older than that.So give me your nuggets of wisdom! Does being an expatriate in Thailand makeyou less ‘Western?’ Does being a Thai in the West make you less ‘Thai’? Whatwere you like at 22 years of age – were you still ‘finding’ yourself as I am?

I know that in conceptions of self, ethnicity and culturerarely paint the whole picture, but I do believe it informs part of each person’sidentity: for instance, to the question, where are you from, most can probablyanswer – I’m British, I’m American, I’m Swiss, etc. But for those who say thatThais like me who have been raised in the West are not ‘Thai’ and are perhaps ‘corrupted’by the ‘pervasive’ Western culture – who do you think I am?

Obviously, there’s no easy answer without sounding trite,but I’m interested to hear your thoughts, nevertheless.

[bkkjames]

You convinced me, where do I sign up?

[andrewbkk]

there's no easy answer without sounding trite

Where do you people come from?

[ra1n85]

You sound like a Thai that has the best of both worlds and a very sharp perspective.

However, by understanding 2 cultures and languages, you will perpetually be trying to bridge between them.

Find the good in both and live in the middle.

[dean999]

At 22, i think you should be having fun and not worrying about what everyone else thinks. Your taking things far to seriously.

Very well writen post though. I wish i could write like that. But then i never cared much for school.

[Stan42]

I'd give this essay a B+. Interesting, but I think the real question is: "Does it matter?". As long as you're happy with who you are I see no problem. If you're having cultural problems, then move to a country you feel more comfortable in.

[Mrjlh]

Very well written young lady. I'd say 40% Thai, 60% Western. And I'd say that's pretty darn good. You have the 40% from your Thai family background and your strong feelings about your culture and country. You'll never loose that or shouldn't. The 60% comes come the influences you received traveling, living and learning in the west. By virtue of that alone you are light years ahead of your fellow country men. Just the education alone puts you ahead but added to that the travel to and seeing other perspectives of other cultures make you a very well rounded individual. Your parents have served you well and have given you a great start in life. I think you can accomplish anything you want to be. No borders no boundary's. Wether it be a happy housewife or a successful business women. But I think the latter is your destiny. At 22, as was stated before, I wouldn't dwell on too many philosophical questions. Life is for you to go out and experience. Enjoy it. Set your goals and go after them. Realize we all can't be brilliant doctors, lawyers, or engineers. it does take time to find what your like to do most. Usually your hobby is what you are good at and if you can make it your business it never grows old. As I have told my four daughters, you can try everything "once". If you didn't like it, then don't do it. If you know it will harm you, use your common sense you were given, don't do it. All four have had successful lives and are happy where they are in life. So far no regrets.

[kerryk]

Marisa,

Do you prefer to date Thai men or Western men? Who do you have the most fun with?

[marisa808]

Thanks for all the comments.

I think it has been repeated that I should not dwell too much on such questions or issues. I'd like to reassure you all that I don't consume myself with these thoughts - usually I am doing too much to ponder these kind of things - but am currently on my summer holidays and have a week off between work placements - a perfect time for a bit of ''philosophical pondering'' and self-indulgence!

I'd like to clarify that I'm not a ''worrier'' about what other people think, but I am always interested to hear people's opinion on thins related to cultural/social/political/religious issues.

At the end of the day, no, it does not matter!!!

In answer to kerryk's question, I have had more Western boyfriends (2) than Thai (1)...I think that's probably far too small a small a sample to draw a conclusion on whether I have more fun with Thai or Western men...?

[Mrjlh]

Thanks for all the comments.

I think it has been repeated that I should not dwell too much on such questions or issues. I'd like to reassure you all that I don't consume myself with these thoughts - usually I am doing too much to ponder these kind of things - but am currently on my summer holidays and have a week off between work placements - a perfect time for a bit of ''philosophical pondering'' and self-indulgence!

I'd like to clarify that I'm not a ''worrier'' about what other people think, but I am always interested to hear people's opinion on thins related to cultural/social/political/religious issues.

At the end of the day, no, it does not matter!!!

In answer to kerryk's question, I have had more Western boyfriends (2) than Thai (1)...I think that's probably far too small a small a sample to draw a conclusion on whether I have more fun with Thai or Western men...?

I wasn't implying you are dwelling on or worrying too much. It's good you are taking the time thinking about life and asking those questions.. You seem very well balanced and have a good head on your shoulders. Your parents can be very proud. I wish you much success in life.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm very lucky that I fit fairly readily into a ready-made stereotype which, if 1960s science fiction is taken as a valid source, will stand me in good stead for the foreseeable future.

Anyway, where I come from "Who do you think you are" is fighting talk, comparable with "excuse me, are you talking to me?"

SC

(maybe 'excuse me' should be in brackets...)

[Mrjlh]

I'm very lucky that I fit fairly readily into a ready-made stereotype which, if 1960s science fiction is taken as a valid source, will stand me in good stead for the foreseeable future.

Ah...can you clarify that?

Even though her opening question could be taken as a provoking sentence, her writing skills are far superior.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Mrjlh

[StreetCowboy]

I'm very lucky that I fit fairly readily into a ready-made stereotype which, if 1960s science fiction is taken as a valid source, will stand me in good stead for the foreseeable future.

Ah...can you clarify that?

Even though her opening question could be taken as a provoking sentence, her writing skills are far superior.

I'm an expatriate Scottish engineer, the current in a class the sweat of whose brows has supported empires since the dawn of colonialism.. and, according to the genre, will continue to do so through the 23rd century.

Thailand (allegedly) is a very hierarchical society, and so long as we know our place, we can all be happy, whether as peasant farmers, landed gentry, urban elite, or expat misfits. Were I to set up as an entrepreneurial wide-boy, I would not so easily fit the stereotype, I fear, and my life would be full of stress and anxiety. Were I to marry into a clan of peasant farmers, I would struggle to adapt. But I am quite comfortable where I am and relate well, I think, to my peers, family, employers, staff and pretty much everyone I deal with. The beauty of conformity!

SC

No offence was intended or implied in my comment; it was intended merely for information, since perhaps some less faranglicised (?that doesn't sound right - should that be 'farangled'?) readers might use the phrase in less amiable company

[Mrjlh]

I'm very lucky that I fit fairly readily into a ready-made stereotype which, if 1960s science fiction is taken as a valid source, will stand me in good stead for the foreseeable future.

Ah...can you clarify that?

Even though her opening question could be taken as a provoking sentence, her writing skills are far superior.

I'm an expatriate Scottish engineer, the current in a class the sweat of whose brows has supported empires since the dawn of colonialism.. and, according to the genre, will continue to do so through the 23rd century.

Thailand (allegedly) is a very hierarchical society, and so long as we know our place, we can all be happy, whether as peasant farmers, landed gentry, urban elite, or expat misfits. Were I to set up as an entrepreneurial wide-boy, I would not so easily fit the stereotype, I fear, and my life would be full of stress and anxiety. Were I to marry into a clan of peasant farmers, I would struggle to adapt. But I am quite comfortable where I am and relate well, I think, to my peers, family, employers, staff and pretty much everyone I deal with. The beauty of conformity!

SC

No offence was intended or implied in my comment; it was intended merely for information, since perhaps some less faranglicised (?that doesn't sound right - should that be 'farangled'?) readers might use the phrase in less amiable company

Nothing wrong with you Scotts, just hard to understand you with the accent. Even in your writing!

[jaapfries]

Marissa808:

First of all - it is crystal clear to me that you possess a very healthy set of brains AND that you know how to use them ! - If more people of your age would ask themselves the "Self-Examinaning" questions which you have raised, then this world would, without a doubt, be a better place !

Secondly; you may ignore some of the more 'superficial' posts here: your philosophic considerations are simply lost on some of our 'simpler' fellow-human beings !

Thirdly: I think the point you raise is as interesting as it is intelligent - and have ventured into this matter myself, albeit in my mind: I could never put it into words as eloquently as you:

Born in Holland; finished High-School & Compulsory Army service; moved to Canada at age 20; moved to New Zealand at age 34; moved to Thailand at age 44 and still living here today . . . I ask myself the question "what am I" The best I can come-up with is that I am a "Citizen of the World" whilst being proud of being a "Frysian Dutchman" with a great affinity for Canada and a somewhat lesser fondness of New Zealand.

Six months after arriving in Thailand I met (what proofed to be) my 'Soul-Mate'. Inspite of the difficult beginnings [she's a traditional Thai girl from very modest yet highly honorable roots - not a bar-girls (with all respect for bar-girls !) - who spoke little English, yet we never had a communication-problem; -from a vastly different cultural background, yet this never clashed with my own.

In any event; she's pretty; she's fun to be with; she's currently in Law-School and she is and will always be (I say this after 18 years together) the absolute 'apple-of-my-eye' and my reason for living !

So; when I ask myself what' am I ? ?

I am a happy, multi-cultural citizen of the world, who'sproud of his heritage AND proud of the heritage of the love of his life !

Marissa; when I turned 18, my father gave me something which I have treasured ever since. It instantly became the "thread" in my life and a compass to which I've sailed ever since.

Maybe there's something in there which you may find 'of value' ?

(Rudyard Kipling)

If

If you can keep your head when all about you

Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;

If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

But make allowance for their doubting too;

If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,

Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,

And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;

If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;

If you can meet with triumph and disaster

And treat those two imposters just the same;

If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,

And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;

If you can make one heap of all your winnings

And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

And lose, and start again at your beginnings

And never breath a word about your loss;

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

To serve your turn long after they are gone,

And so hold on when there is nothing in you

Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;

If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;

If all men count with you, but none too much;

If you can fill the unforgiving minute

With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -

Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

Cheers,

:jap:

JaapFries

[ccarbaugh]

"....I believe that many on this forum are at least a decade older than me, and an even greater majority are probably vastly older than that. So give me your nuggets of wisdom!......

"What were you like at 22 years of age – were you still ‘finding’ yourself as I am?"

(Yes!)

- Absolute Genius!!!! As long as you are able (and willing,) to question your "identity," - you are on the "enlightened path."

Since you are blessed with the knowledge and experience of two languages and cultures, you have a "far-superior" understanding of what a "citizen-of-the-world" is. Continue to question religion and despise nationalism.

Enjoy your days.

[OlafStapleton]

"But the question I would like to pose is: what makes awoman 'Thai' or 'Western' in your eyes?"

Question wrong, thinking wrong.

Nothing wrong with women of any race, colour or creed!

Correct question is: What makes you avoid any woman

Correct answer is: Easy access to western judicial system giving entitlement to male assets (land, property, income, saving, pension)

Many western country give a woman entitlement to 50% property after 6 weeks co-habiting in man house.

Many western country give women entitlement to 50% everything man owns after childbirth +his house +20% of man income for next 20 years.

Edited July 15, 2011 by OlafStapleton

[kerryk]

"But the question I would like to pose is: what makes awoman 'Thai' or 'Western' in your eyes?"

Question wrong, thinking wrong.

Nothing wrong with women of any race, colour or creed!

Correct question is: What makes you avoid any woman

Correct answer is: Easy access to western judicial system giving entitlement to male assets (land, property, income, saving, pension)

Many western country give a woman entitlement to 50% property after 6 weeks co-habiting in man house.

Many western country give women entitlement to 50% everything man owns after childbirth +his house +20% of man income for next 20 years.

I have two daughters. I told them to stay in the US or move to Sweden. As for me I stay in Thailand.

[HenBriggs]

Marisa,

I am half thai half english, I have been brought up in London and spend my holidays in BK too. I would say that I feel thai with my father and his family, yet more english with my friends and mothers family, does this make me confused or adaptable? I'm now living in BK attempting to learn thai, before resuming my studies at LSE.

Henry.

[Ulysses G.]

The logic, intellectual curiosity and thought processes of a Westerner with the femininity of a Thai is a pretty good combination in my opinion.

[ra1n85]

The logic, intellectual curiosity and thought processes of a Westerner with the femininity of a Thai is a pretty good combination in my opinion.

Well put.

[transam]

In the word of JT,.......................... Next.

[Pammalitta]

My personally opinion, I'm proud to be a Thai girl with westernize mind. Open minded and not too submissive. I think you are a smart woman who is also intellectual. I think if you can conbine advantages from being a Thai with western mind, it would be perfect.

I don't belive that Men and Women are equal. I think we have roles to play and we have to compromise in many things. No one gets everything we want and you have to weigh what it's the best for you and go for it. Men are always persued by their careers and Women are more likely to be families.

I don't think there is anything to do with Thai or western girls as well. They are all the same to me. People alway say thai girls are submissive but they know how to manipulate to get what they want as well.

Be who you are, Happy what you have and Enjoy the moments you live.

For me, that's enough. No need to worry what the future will bring but be sure to have an exit plan.

[OlafStapleton]

I don't think there is anything to do with Thai or western girls as well. They are all the same to me. People alway say thai girls are submissive

Only person not know Thai girl say this.

Or used as insult to Thai girl.

Edited July 17, 2011 by OlafStapleton

[kandahar]

Lady, you ask a lot of questions here, not just one. I'll address, for the most part, the question in the title of your post, as I see it applying to you, based on my own experiences.

There are lots of groups of "we" in this world. You belong to many but in this case, you belong to the group of "we" that you have addressed in you query, which is, for the most part, a group of individuals who have chosen to leave what they grew up with and and in some cases, grew up with so many different experiences and places that they really cannot define themselves as being from one place, one culture, one group of social norms. We are the forum members and most of us, are far from home. Most of us are homeless, as you are.

I'll define "we" before I start. We is the group of people who choose to wander, to relocate, to NOT be afraid to see how others live and to live for a while as some of those others do. We are the group of people who really do not know where to call "home" because we know home may be a new place in the future. Home becomes less of a permanent location and eventually, becomes the earth, because in the end, we feel wherever we are is our "temporary" abode. Truly, we have a place to stay but in the end, we are homeless, in that we do not have a hard set of friends, family and community that we live within, sharing all of the same values that such a tight community typically does. We have found that the world over, people are the same and, the world over, people are different. And all of us live each day with others like ourselves yet those others have conflicting values, different accents, different languages, different words for different things in the same language, different this, different that. We can call some place from our past "home" but truly, when we decide to go back and visit that place, we do not feel at home. We are out of place, uncomfortable, and only then, that first time, do we realize, "home" isn't really home to us. And then we know, that if we were to leave our current permanent residence (a home in Thailand, for instance) and take up another, far away, that if we returned to that (Thailand) home a few years later, we wouldn't feel at home there either. And we have discovered that we are "homeless". I, for one, can never go home. It isn't there. A place where all of my people live does exist, but it isn't my home. Those people have never known anything else and it IS their home. I can go visit that familiar place, but I am not one of them.

Here is who we are: We are an aggregate of parts, pieces, instances, events, experiences, occurrences, traumas that got us here thus far and many of those components were from areas outside our "home" territory. We have learned that all we knew and were sure of is not known, is not assured, believed and shared by others in other places. Little of what we thought we knew is written in stone.

Here is who we aren't: We aren't defined by one nationality and many of us, even if we choose to identify with one nationality, aren't defined by one area or geographic location within that nationality and, as mentioned before, realize when we visit that old place, we are no longer one of them. We are still a part of them but we are also a part of many others foreign to those we grew up with. There is no point explaining yourself to them. They know what they know and it is all they know. They can't know or understand what you know.

Lady, you're many things. You aren't Thai. You aren't American or British. You're a human and you are female. You are an aggregate and very unique. You needn't worry if an Expat here sees you as Thai or not. You needn't worry about how any present or future partner will classify you, as far as nationality or culture goes. You need only to find that one person who shares your BASIC life values and allows you and he to enjoy all the other stuff out there. You and he will most likely never look at an event or experience and see the same thing. And that isn't a necessity in life. The necessity is seeing in each other, a person who can see things as an individual and not insist that the other see it the same. There is nothing wrong with telling what it is you see and why it looks as it does to you but there is plenty wrong with insisting that the other person see it the way you do. If you both felt the other has to see it the way you each do, there is conflict until you part and if one person always gives in and decides that the way the other sees it is correct, then that person is unhappy until you part.

Quit worrying about how others view you. You're unfathomable. Most wanderers are. Just find someone who likes the you that came from your past. That person could be any nationality. Look at who their past has created in them. Look at who understands that you are different and hasn't any problem with the homeless aspect of you, indeed, respects and appreciates that part of you.

Quit worrying about who you are. You're many people, many cultures, undefinable. Get used to it. You don't have to be identifiable as one of anything. It is too late for that, even if this very day, you chose a place, a culture and a lifestyle and lived it for the rest of your life. Your past would always make itself known in your decisions, your words, your actions and those would NOT be from the group of people and location where you were living. Celebrate who you aren't. You're very fortunate, as most of us are, to have seen that the world isn't governed by any one set of rules, values or norms. Yes, in a sense, it is a sad thing that you do not have a definite place or culture to associate yourself with. But as I said, what is done, is done. So go with who you are and be happy that you were not confined to one set of life rules for your entire existence. Those people were fortunate to have lived a tiny, comfortable, secure, isolated life. You are fortunate to know a much bigger world, with many more experiences, hurts, gains, losses. You are fortunate to be homeless because you will have lived a much larger, fuller, more informed life than others who aren't.

You aren't an insider and never will be. You are an outsider but that is okay too, because there are a lot of us and we are pretty good people, broad-minded, forgiving, understanding, welcoming. Welcome to our group, to which you have always belonged, but maybe didn't know it yet. Post here again in fifty years and let us know how the ride went.

Edited July 17, 2011 by kandahar

[tonytidbury]

Ithinkitisveryclearfromyourwritingthatyouarethaithroughandthrough.

[Berkshire]

Boy, where to start. Firstly, you're taking many of the comments made on this site as gospel, as if TV members are somehow knowledgeable and morally beyond reproach. This is extremely flawed. For example, you say:

"the view that Thai women are not interested in cultural or intellectual pursuits, and it is often said that Thai women don't seem to enjoy reading at all."

Do you believe this because a few, shall we say, misinformed farangs say it to be so? The farangs who make these comments are generally dating uneducated farm girls with barely a M6 education. The educated Thais I know are constantly searching for knowledge and reading every day. Some English media, but mostly Thai media. Same same.

The farangs on this site seem to equate English proficiency with intelligence. This is flawed thinking to the extreme. I'm sure we wouldn't do that if we were in, say, Japan...or Korea....or France for that matter. You articulate your thoughts very well. The thing is most Thai girls in Thailand can do the same--just not in English. And why should they? This is Thailand and learning English is strictly optional (unless you work in a bar that caters to westerners). Farangs on this board seem to go ga-ga at the sight of a Thai girl who can actually put two sentences together.

But to answer your question on whether you are Thai or western--only YOU can answer that question. That's not a cop-out, but I think you know what you are. My guess is that you are western. Your values and beliefs are shaped by the environment that you grew up in and yours is distinctly western. Thais in Thailand are distinctly Thai. Big difference. Your beliefs will shape your attitude towards relationships, gender roles, family, raising children, and a whole host of other issues. For example, how would you feel about your parents living with you even after you are married? Thai and western beliefs are completely different on this one.

Anyways, I can go on and on. I just read a Stickman column on the myths of what western men think about Thai women. I may just start a thread on that. But you do not need to explain yourself on this forum or any other. Some farang men will keep believing what they do about Thai women and you will never change that.