Three Went Out, Two Came Back, Two Died...

[happyrobert]

You did the right thing not going in, you may have just been another statistic. Though it is reprehensible those with jetskis didn't bother. I can't believe people still go swimming after drinking, just a recipe for disaster.

Agree and a big accolade for you, OP, and the Bulgarian.

Back in 1989 I checked in to some beach huts not far from the ferry terminal on Koh Samui. While the elderly couple who ran the huts were friendly, they kept glancing at me, looking worried. I had zero Thai at that time and they began asking me the same question over and over.

After a while I realised they were asking if I was German. I said no, British, at which they seemed totally relieved and relaxed.

The next morning a Really Nice Australian girl checked in, with really good Thai language.

I asked her to find out why the concern that I may be German.

I'll never forget her mixture of sadness and amusement when she got the answer. Two days previously a minibus had rolled up there from Bangkok, full of inebriated Germans. Three fell out of the bus and immediately raced into the sea, striking out strongly for the horizon. None of them had been seen since. The old couple must have thought that this lunacy was somehow restricted to Germans!

Many thanks, all, for the good advice on this thread. Just one silly (British) question, is a 'rip tide' what we call 'under-tow', the strong current under the surface that pulls people, dead or alive, away from the shore?

Rip tide is a misnomer, it's not tidal anymore than a tsunami. A rip current, basically, is water trying to level itself out. Higher at the beach than off shore for various reasons. It will pull you out, not down. Undertows are different and can exist concurrently, or not. Not easy for a healthy adult to die in an undertow only.

Rip currents kill far more.

Rips rarely extend more than a hundred meters off shore, rarely more, usually less, and can be very narrow, or quite wide. They can also change from day to day, on the same beach. So just because there was not one on Tuesday, does not mean there can't be one in the same spot on Wednesday.

Biggest rule is no panic. Rips will not pull you under. Tread, or even float until you know the rip has finished, then slowly make your way around to another point on the beach.

There's a ton of info on the net, including predictors of rip currents. How to see where they are forming, and where they usually do form. I'd suggest everyone read up on it who swims in Thailand.

Lastly, fins are of enormous benefit, especially if you are used to them. If you aren't practiced with them, you can suffer cramps. That's almost always a death sentence. So buy a pair and use them often!

EDIT: Some beaches are notorious for rips. Some never have them. Ask the locals.

I think there should be a Beach Safety forum with Happyrobert as Admin/Mod/primary contributor.

And let's find a way to honor his awesome dog too.

Forget about me, the dog's much more dedicated and tireless. She didn't want to retire. I did.

Her name's Hipo (ee-poh), Spanish for hiccup.

First pic is from nine years ago, at 3 years old, with her two kids.

Pic in the water, she's twelve now, lost her front left leg from a collapsed building. Loves to swim so when I couldn't find a kiddy size vest to help her flotation, I rigged up something from available materials. Seems to work fine except her son always wants to try to bite the floats--associates them with coconuts, which they all go after in the water. (He's not quite as bright as his mom .)

And, yes, I'm proud of her.

[SteeleJoe]

Forget about me, the dog's much more dedicated and tireless.

But I'm thinking that she might not write as informative posts as you do. (If you are reading this, no offense Hipo!)

I'd be proud of her too.

[anothertorres]

the moral of the story here is... you can't save 'em all.

[thaibeachlovers]

In a country where 5 year old kids drive a bike with 4 of their friends on too, I doubt signs are going to make a difference.

At the end of the day, most of us like living in a country without the rules and regulation of our own. If there were consequences for the alcohol seller, for instance, it just wouldn't be the LOS that we love, and might as well live back home. Nothing is without consequences.

Signs are a start and at least Westerners might pay more attention to them, I know I would. If you wouldn't, good luck to you in your swim!

Hmmm. I've been caught in a rip, and it wasn't a pleasant experience. However, as I can't swim well, I was wearing a wetsuit and fins, and obviously I survived.

I also knew enough not to fight the current, but go across it till it stopped.

I don't know that westerners would take much notice. Given the many products of the western education system that I see riding m'bikes wearing only shorts and flip flops I have to wonder how mankind survived this long.

[happyrobert]

In a country where 5 year old kids drive a bike with 4 of their friends on too, I doubt signs are going to make a difference.

At the end of the day, most of us like living in a country without the rules and regulation of our own. If there were consequences for the alcohol seller, for instance, it just wouldn't be the LOS that we love, and might as well live back home. Nothing is without consequences.

Signs are a start and at least Westerners might pay more attention to them, I know I would. If you wouldn't, good luck to you in your swim!

Hmmm. I've been caught in a rip, and it wasn't a pleasant experience. However, as I can't swim well, I was wearing a wetsuit and fins, and obviously I survived.

I also knew enough not to fight the current, but go across it till it stopped.

I don't know that westerners would take much notice. Given the many products of the western education system that I see riding m'bikes wearing only shorts and flip flops I have to wonder how mankind survived this long.

They have a big sign on Koh Chang. Tourists see it on the way into White Sand Beach from the ferry. It's well placed on a curve that the drivers must slow down to negotiate—well, usually. Not sure how much good it does.

I have, in the last few days, tinkered with the idea of buying a couple of sheets of ply and some two-bys, and painting a similar sign with simple language and a diagram.

But Thai tend to see and read and pay attention to signs far differently that we do. And a 15 year testo-fueled old boy—or three of them—who have been sold enough alcohol to suppress their inhibitions to zero, and who are intent on impressing that really cute girl…what sign?

Besides, I don't have a work permit. I'd probably be arrested and deported.

[californiabeachboy]

"Drinking then swimming" - to me that says it all. I like to drink and I love to swim, but what a horrible combination. In my city in California a law was passed after considerable, (and somewhat acrimonious) debate, banning the possession of alcohol on the sand (a law I opposed, as I like to watch the sunset with a drink in hand). But the flip side is that there are a significant number of people who for some reason (after a few drinks) think that the ocean is like a swimming pool.

Sad story, but great discussion here.

[bonobo]

I was a water safety instructor, and I spend time training Marines to swim. I have had only one rescue, and that involved a Marine (not during instruction) crossing a 25m wide creek. The deep part was maybe 15m wide.

I was also 30 at the time and in marathon shape. Two Marines doing the crossing let go of the raft to swim across and went down quickly. Another Marine and I dove in. I grabbed the kid's hand about two or three feet under and dragged him up, and then his panic almost took me under as well. I had to pretty much beat him up to get him to stop fighting me, almost knocking him out. I was never so relived when the raft got back to me and hands grabbed ahold of my deuce gear (a harness system we wear from which to hang things we need).

My point is that I was in great shape, my training was up-to-date, and the danger area of the water was not that extensive, and still, I felt I could have also been a victim.

So in this case, despite me still being in good shape and being a pretty good swimmer, with the third boy out that far, if I could not have gotten the jetski, I hope I would have been able to resist the rescue attempt and probably also become a victim. Cruel thinking maybe, and against most of our inclinations, but that's the way it is.

[CHdiver]

If you want to rescue a Person inwater, make always sure you have a float. Keep it between you and the Victim, this will prevent him of grabbing you. Otherwise the Victim may get hold of you and take you down as well. Make sure you can do a Rescue in a safe manner. The Bulgarian here did it the right way. Well done!

[SteeleJoe]

If you want to rescue a Person inwater, make always sure you have a float. Keep it between you and the Victim, this will prevent him of grabbing you. Otherwise the Victim may get hold of you and take you down as well. Make sure you can do a Rescue in a safe manner. The Bulgarian here did it the right way. Well done!

Even the Army taught us that; I think in some parts of the Army, unlike the navy or Marines I suppose, swim safety/drown-proofing is perhaps not a component of the training but in my part it was required (as was passing the Combat Water Survival Test -- makes me sound well hard, doesn't it? I feel compelled to keep up with these genuinely heroic Rescuers and Marine Instructors!)

But in fact I remember being taught that as a boy and while I think it was generally known and even taught in school, I may have gotten it from having a best friend, step-sister and stepfather who had all been SoCal lifeguards

[happyrobert]

I was very concerned for the Bulgarian.

His taking an innertube was excellent, but still dangerous as it put him too close to the two victims. I still worried about his making it back in as the rip there that day was wide. It's the roughest and widest rip I've seen in a long time. With jagged rocks on both sides.

Victims in the drowning process, which could take seconds or many minutes, are indeed potentially quite dangerous to a rescuer because of their panic and they are still strong. So I was also concerned for the Bulgarian because I have seen victims beyond exhaustion have a two or three second burst of enormously strong energy and take a rescuer under.

So, be careful guys. Unless the victim is a very small child, or you have a large flotation device that you can throw to the victim, with a line to tow them back ashore, don't attempt the rescue. Stay away from them. I've had small women fight like wildcats with the strength of a bear. Let them drown rather than drowning with them.

Multiple victims, like the two George went out after, can gang up on the rescuer. Water rescues are some of the most dangerous types of rescue operations and really are for pros. You wouldn't grab a set of paddles and try to defibrillate someone, would you? Unless you had the training? It's tough when you think someone is going to die, but rescues by everyday Joes with big hearts often turn into disasters.

On another note, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure here. If you drown in Thailand and are "rescued" back to the beach, you are likely as good as dead. Over this two year period since moving here, I have seen some shockers. The two George "saved" (neither survived) were both hypoxic once on shore. Amazing they could hold on to the innertube at all. Blue lips and nail beds, one went into hypoxic convulsions as they "dumped" him in the back of a police pickup. None of the official "rescuers" with the fancy jackets and walkie-talkies, who were dashing back and forth, had a clue as to what to do. No first aid kits, no O2, no ambu bag.

Rescuers? No. Meat wagon drivers, yes. Basic, inexpensive rescue equipment like an O2 bottle and ambu bag can be used with little training. I've never seen here. Even the way you take a victim out of the water can make a difference in survival. Taking them out prone, for instance, as opposed to upright, can increase survival chances. Pretty sure they don't know that here.

I asked where they were taking him, they said 30 minutes into the Trad hospital. There is a closer clinic with O2, where perhaps he could have been somewhat stabilized and then transported into town, but they wouldn't listen. His lungs were full of water - no doubt he didn't survive the bumpy ride, alone, in the back of the pickup.

[aneliane]

I still cannot comprehend why not one else apart from you two, tried to save these kids. Out of all these people, no one had a boat / floater ? Why in your opinion did the jet ski guy refuse ? and the fishing boats? It seems so unbelievable.

Hat off to you Robert !

[happyrobert]

I still cannot comprehend why not one else apart from you two, tried to save these kids. Out of all these people, no one had a boat / floater ? Why in your opinion did the jet ski guy refuse ? and the fishing boats? It seems so unbelievable.

Hat off to you Robert !

I can't comprehend it either.

You know, Aneliane, there are many things different here than where we come from, yes?

The food is different, and so are the driving practices. The language, the furniture, building techniques and appliances. Clothing and manner of greeting—wai in place of shaking hands. The "police" are certainly different.

I can, and most of us choose to, deal with that. We want to live here in spite of, or in some cases, because of these differences. But now I've seen something here that I don't at all like, and can not blow off as culture.

As I stated in an earlier post, at least some onlookers at rescue scenes in the States, and I'm sure France, are typically most eager to volunteer and help rescue workers, often at great peril to themselves. Other onlookers are stressed and agitated by what they see and this manifests itself in crying, anger, pacing and other things. Sure, some stand there, but this group on the beach were of one mind.

People were standing on shore for 30 minutes while three of their friends frantically tried to swim to shore, screaming for help initially, until too tired to scream anymore. I only caught the last few minutes, which is when the emotions of the onlookers should have been strongest. Yet they did not appear disturbed by what they were watching. No tears, no hands over the mouth, no pacing.

Just watching and pointing and talking with each other.

The jet ski? Boats? There were many boats nearby, not motored, but safe enough for a few people to slowly row out, throw a line to the kids, and pull them in. So why didn't someone do this? Well, either they didn't have the brains to think of it; they didn't have the brains to realize their friends were dying; they were scared to try, or the mai pen rai attitude. Take your pick, I don't know the answer, but I don't like any of the choices. It was, and still is, astonishing. I felt then, and feel now, like they all thought they were watching television.

A hundred or more fellow students and adults, and no one except the Bulgarian, George, tried anything.

This was not the first time I've witnessed what seemed to be a lack of concern for human life here, but it was the first time on such a massive scale.

I should say that an hour later, however, I did watch three people crying lightly. I assumed they were family members who came to the scene after it was over. By the time they arrived, the police had left and the music and drinking had resumed.

I am uncomfortable coming to these conclusions, lest others say I am bashing. But I saw what I saw.

But hey, maybe it's just me...

[EvilDrSomkid]

A very sad story. Tragic.

In the short time I have lived in this country, there is something which stands out every day.

I must say I am generalizing here, but most Thai people do not give shit about anything. They have no concern for any one, not even themselves. They see no danger, they do not care about pollution or filth. Trying to rescue the kids would mean getting involved. Big no-no here.

We westerners want to analyze everything. We want to know WHY. They do not. Asking why is considered unnecessary and/or confrontational, worse yet make you think.

This is not Thai bashing. Just an observation. It is their culture, their country, so they do what they want.

[GM1955]

I'd have rented the jet ski and went to get them.

[happyrobert]

I'd have rented the jet ski and went to get them.

It was his personal jet ski. Not for rent. When I ran over to him and said, help me get it in the water, he took out the key, pocketed it, and said, mi pen rai.

[EvilDrSomkid]

I should add that I asked my wife about this and it surprised her too that nobody helped.

After the tsunami, people helped each other, but not in this tragedy.

She does say most people here are very selfish and/or ignorant. Most Thais are not strong swimmers so the kids/people on the beach were probably afraid to go in, especially if there was heavy surf.

She also says, most here don't know what to do. No first aid knowledge or anything.

I vaguely remember being taught stuff like this in school.

What's important here in school is respecting culture, country, elders and authority, not to question anything. My wife is very annoyed at the crap level of teachers here.

Then again, you can't talk sense into 15 years old drunk boys, no matter where they come from.

[dean999]

If you want to rescue a Person inwater, make always sure you have a float. Keep it between you and the Victim, this will prevent him of grabbing you. Otherwise the Victim may get hold of you and take you down as well. Make sure you can do a Rescue in a safe manner. The Bulgarian here did it the right way. Well done!

Even the Army taught us that; I think in some parts of the Army, unlike the navy or Marines I suppose, swim safety/drown-proofing is perhaps not a component of the training but in my part it was required (as was passing the Combat Water Survival Test -- makes me sound well hard, doesn't it? I feel compelled to keep up with these genuinely heroic Rescuers and Marine Instructors!)

But in fact I remember being taught that as a boy and while I think it was generally known and even taught in school, I may have gotten it from having a best friend, step-sister and stepfather who had all been SoCal lifeguards

I'm in the british navy and believe it or not, we get very basic training when it comes to swimming.

This is my training -

Joining the navy you have to swim one length of a pool with overalls on and exit the pool unaided at the deep end. Then tread water for 1 minute. Finish that and you pass the swim part of your training.

Before joining your first ship, we have to undertake Basic Sea Survival Course (BSSC). Mostly firefighting and damage control (being put in a replica of the inside of a ship and they pump water in through holes. We have to save the ship by putting wood wedges in the holes and stopping the leaks, good fun).

We also have to put on once only survival suits and life jackets and jump in a lake, swim to a life raft and get in.

We do training on ships to rescue people out of the sea if they fall in but that is - ship gets close to the person and the swimmer of the watch gets kitted out and a line gets attached to him and he goes in after the person.

I know people in the navy who if they feel in the sea, they wouldn't stand a chance because they can't swim very far. I think the Marines and army get more swimming training than us.

Edited July 18, 2011 by dean999

[GM1955]

Then again, you can't talk sense into 15 years old drunk boys, no matter where they come from.

Some of the things I used to get up to at that age were crazy if I look back on it now, but if some old fogey had told me at the time that I was being irresponsible, I'd have laughed at him.

[aneliane]

I'd have rented the jet ski and went to get them.

It was his personal jet ski. Not for rent. When I ran over to him and said, help me get it in the water, he took out the key, pocketed it, and said, mi pen rai.

It is shocking, I do too remember as well Thai people being really praised for their help and courage when the tsunami happened ... this is definitely changing something for me

Is there no law for failure to assist a person in danger ?

[SteeleJoe]

If you want to rescue a Person inwater, make always sure you have a float. Keep it between you and the Victim, this will prevent him of grabbing you. Otherwise the Victim may get hold of you and take you down as well. Make sure you can do a Rescue in a safe manner. The Bulgarian here did it the right way. Well done!

Even the Army taught us that; I think in some parts of the Army, unlike the navy or Marines I suppose, swim safety/drown-proofing is perhaps not a component of the training but in my part it was required (as was passing the Combat Water Survival Test -- makes me sound well hard, doesn't it? I feel compelled to keep up with these genuinely heroic Rescuers and Marine Instructors!)

But in fact I remember being taught that as a boy and while I think it was generally known and even taught in school, I may have gotten it from having a best friend, step-sister and stepfather who had all been SoCal lifeguards

I'm in the british navy and believe it or not, we get very basic training when it comes to swimming.

This is my training -

Joining the navy you have to swim one length of a pool with overalls on and exit the pool unaided at the deep end. Then tread water for 1 minute. Finish that and you pass the swim part of your training.

Before joining your first ship, we have to undertake Basic Sea Survival Course (BSSC). Mostly firefighting and damage control (being put in a replica of the inside of a ship and they pump water in through holes. We have to save the ship by putting wood wedges in the holes and stopping the leaks, good fun).

We also have to put on once only survival suits and life jackets and jump in a lake, swim to a life raft and get in.

We do training on ships to rescue people out of the sea if they fall in but that is - ship gets close to the person and the swimmer of the watch gets kitted out and a line gets attached to him and he goes in after the person.

I know people in the navy who if they feel in the sea, they wouldn't stand a chance because they can't swim very far. I think the Marines and army get more swimming training than us.

Very interesting. Thanks for that.

As I say, I don't think US Army conventional troops get a lot (or any) training in the water but I know the Rangers (and the SF of course) have to pass harder tests than that and get a fair bit of training in the water -- at least that was the case centuries ago when I was a young man -- as it's a part of the job (crossing rivers and waterborne assaults and so on) ...

Then again, it was my understanding that all US military bases have (or had) safety classes that cover everything to driving to first aid to swimming pools and that all service members get such classes by law (which probably don't amount to much more than briefings).

Oh, and kudos to you for your military service. Stay dry!

Edited July 18, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[WebBangkok]

Tragic story,

But the kids were just being kids. I used to be on Bondi and Coogee beach when I was a teen and yes drinking and swimming a few times a month. When you are young we all think we are invisible, or atleast I thought I was more like a God on the piss in my teens

Anyways, who knows, they guy with the jet ski probably didnt think they would drown, he still should of helped.

RIP to the victims.

[SteeleJoe]

I am deliberately withholding comment on the whole failure to act issue as well as the emotional reaction, or lack thereof, from bystanders; it's just too heavy to consider, complex to discuss objectively and ultimately lead to a potential conclusions that are at least a bit dispiriting....

But certainly I think I can understand happyrobert's sentiments on this...

[happyrobert]

I am deliberately withholding comment on the whole failure to act issue as well as the emotional reaction, or lack thereof, from bystanders; it's just too heavy to consider, complex to discuss objectively and ultimately lead to a potential conclusions that are at least a bit dispiriting....

Very wise.

I now wish I hadn't been there to see it. I've had my bad days here like anyone else, homesick from time to time, but generally satisfied with being here. It's not the deaths that are still affecting me--I've seen death enough times-- and I'm now guessing it's not really even the reaction by others to the deaths that's affecting me.

It's the heaviness and complexity, as you aptly put it, of understanding such a reaction, such a different viewpoint of life and death. That is a stumbling block for me.

[happyrobert]

Guys, I think I'm going to bow out of this thread. It's going in a direction that I did not anticipate nor intend, and I can see it spinning out of control. The OP was about how needless drownings are in rip currents. Not Thai psychology. And it did not take much reflection to agree with steelejoe's thoughts.

I will say that the responses in this thread have been the most mature and responsible that I have ever read on TV. Thanks for that.

I think it's best if any further posts stick to the matter of rip currents, drownings and water rescues. I do hope the thread remains open--I thought about asking mods to close it-- as maybe someone's reading it will prevent even one death, either as original victim, or a rescuer with good intentions. That was my purpose at the start.

Thanks for the kind comments. Maybe you guys could add some other thoughts over the next day or two to keep the thread open a bit longer and thereby allow a few more potential victims to get a head's up on rip current survival.