Rubber Or Sugar Cane Economics

[Ray2020]

We live in a village about 15km northwest of Udon, population is almost entirely comprised of rice farmers. We are looking into the feasibility of getting into sugar cane or rubber plantations in the area north of Nong Bua Lamphu, south of Nongkhai and west of Nong Han (Udon). Percentage of our own effort out of the total effort needed to run such a farm would depend on the proximity of the farm to the village where we live; that is we could be more present on a farm that would be closer to our village. Nothing magical about sugar cane or rubber, but that is what we see some of the local rice farmers branching out to. Also, Jack, one of my friends here started a 25 Rai rubber plantation from scratch, and was helping me with the expertise of rubber farming and the economics of it. Jack had earned a Ph. D. in Chemistry and Masters in Business administration and was knowledgeable in computers, hardware and software. He was teaching at an American University and building houses before moving to Thailand. Jack passed away a few months ago.

Here is what I have learned about the economics of rubber farming: In our area, I can acquire land suitable for rubber farming from 40-70,000 baht per Rai. I should then expect to spend about 20-25,000 baht per Rai during the 6-7 years after planting before I can start to inflict pain on the trees to collect rubber. Or, I can buy a farm with nearly mature trees for 100,000+ baht per Rai. Then, assuming 500kg/yr/rai (newer breed), 90 baht/ kg for cup rubber, and 60-40 split in my favor with the collectors, and after expenses and some slack, I can expect about 20,000 baht per year per Rai in net income. Is that a reasonable number? What are the risks: fire, infestation, theft? Yes, I have read through many pages on this topic, but I still ask. Our target (fantasy?) is to have 30 to 50,000 baht a month in farm income. Allowing for some slack, is it doable with 25-40 Rais of rubber farming, or do you think that I am smoking some illegal stuff.

Is there such a sky level business model for a sugar cane farm?

I am about to write to our kind-hearted, rubber farming guru, James Collister, to request a visit to his business. But, I am also seeking help from persons closer in distance from me who would be kind enough to help me with technical expertise and economics of rubber and/or sugar cane farming. Anyone here?

[jamescollister]

Ray, you are welcome to come and stay a few days and have a look around, as long as you bring the beer. Also think you need to do a bit more research on rubber. First thing I would be aeking my self, is the area wet enough for rubber. Do the locals get 2 rice crops a year or just 1. If 1 a very long dry season.

No one sells good rubber trees for 100,000 Baht a rai. Would you sell your house in your home country for the same as 3 years rent. I'll say this again a Thai family can live with bad trees, they tap themselves. A farang has to have a least twice the output, as he has to pay tappers. About 30 km from here an Aussie guy has 25 rai of 11 year old trees. The trees have never been taken care of, though he paid for the work and fertilizer etc none of the money went into the trees. The family can't be bothered to tap and they can not get a tapper on 60% to work as he would not make enough to live from the trees. Everything sounds easy, but it's not. Have a read of my blog on how I ended up here. More of a short story than a blog. Jim

http://jamescollister.blogspot.com/

[Dakling]

About 30 km from here an Aussie guy has 25 rai of 11 year old trees. The trees have never been taken care of, though he paid for the work and fertilizer etc none of the money went into the trees.

Hi Jim

Any specifics on what this guy did wrong? Was it as simple as people stole the money for fertilizer and the trees were never fertilized or was it more a lack of knowledge issue (ie. they didn't limb the trees as they were growing)? I just planted a bit over 2000 RRIM600 trees on around 25 rai in Si Saket and am trying to make sure I don't do anything too stupid. Other than keeping the grass around the trees down, limbing the trees and fertilizing I can't think of much else that needs to be done to ensure the trees prosper and yield rubber when mature.

I don't plan on the rubber being anything other than a supplimental income source so I don't need to have the highest yeiling, best managed farm in Thailand or anything but I do like to do things the "proper" way. After paying for the trees, having them planted and fertilized and caring for them for 7 years I would be gutted if the trees were so poor that they weren't even worth cutting.

PS> I love the blog, it's interesting to see how many folks end up in rural Thailand via different routes.

[jamescollister]

About 30 km from here an Aussie guy has 25 rai of 11 year old trees. The trees have never been taken care of, though he paid for the work and fertilizer etc none of the money went into the trees.

Hi Jim

Any specifics on what this guy did wrong? Was it as simple as people stole the money for fertilizer and the trees were never fertilized or was it more a lack of knowledge issue (ie. they didn't limb the trees as they were growing)? I just planted a bit over 2000 RRIM600 trees on around 25 rai in Si Saket and am trying to make sure I don't do anything too stupid. Other than keeping the grass around the trees down, limbing the trees and fertilizing I can't think of much else that needs to be done to ensure the trees prosper and yield rubber when mature.

I don't plan on the rubber being anything other than a supplimental income source so I don't need to have the highest yeiling, best managed farm in Thailand or anything but I do like to do things the "proper" way. After paying for the trees, having them planted and fertilized and caring for them for 7 years I would be gutted if the trees were so poor that they weren't even worth cutting.

PS> I love the blog, it's interesting to see how many folks end up in rural Thailand via different routes.

Thanks for reading the blog. As for the guy with the trees, nothing was done for them, they were planted, root bound and just left. He came up and looked , stayed for a few days then went. He saw some trees don't even know whether they even showed him his trees or someone else. He paid they spent. A fool born everyday, but I guess he had the money to lose. If you keep an eye on your trees then there will be no problems and 2000 trees is a lot of extra money. We are selling tomorrow. 3000 to 4000 trees, 1700 kilos or there about of RSS. I will take home over $4,000 US in my pocket for the month. Or should I say I will get 30,000 Baht for beer money and the wife will get the rest. Jim

[jamescollister]

About 30 km from here an Aussie guy has 25 rai of 11 year old trees. The trees have never been taken care of, though he paid for the work and fertilizer etc none of the money went into the trees.

Hi Jim

Any specifics on what this guy did wrong? Was it as simple as people stole the money for fertilizer and the trees were never fertilized or was it more a lack of knowledge issue (ie. they didn't limb the trees as they were growing)? I just planted a bit over 2000 RRIM600 trees on around 25 rai in Si Saket and am trying to make sure I don't do anything too stupid. Other than keeping the grass around the trees down, limbing the trees and fertilizing I can't think of much else that needs to be done to ensure the trees prosper and yield rubber when mature.

I don't plan on the rubber being anything other than a supplimental income source so I don't need to have the highest yeiling, best managed farm in Thailand or anything but I do like to do things the "proper" way. After paying for the trees, having them planted and fertilized and caring for them for 7 years I would be gutted if the trees were so poor that they weren't even worth cutting.

PS> I love the blog, it's interesting to see how many folks end up in rural Thailand via different routes.

Thanks for reading the blog. As for the guy with the trees, nothing was done for them, they were planted, root bound and just left. He came up and looked , stayed for a few days then went. He saw some trees don't even know whether they even showed him his trees or someone else. He paid they spent. A fool born everyday, but I guess he had the money to lose. If you keep an eye on your trees then there will be no problems and 2000 trees is a lot of extra money. We are selling tomorrow. 3000 to 4000 trees, 1700 kilos or there about of RSS. I will take home over $4,000 US in my pocket for the month. Or should I say I will get 30,000 Baht for beer money and the wife will get the rest. Jim

Sorry should have said 1700 sheets of RSS, we are back to making 1-2 kilo sheets. Don't really know way we make the i kilo sheets for the first month, but the tappers like it that way. Just looks more. They say it is easier to dry, I don't care as longs as they make money. Jim

[Dakling]

We are selling tomorrow. 3000 to 4000 trees, 1700 kilos or there about of RSS. I will take home over $4,000 US in my pocket for the month. Or should I say I will get 30,000 Baht for beer money and the wife will get the rest. Jim

Jim

Sounds like your well sorted.

I would be happy with the 30,000 baht a month. I only have 2,000 trees, won't be actively managing our farm and we won't be making RSS so my guess is I won't make anywhere near the money you are making but even $1,000 per month is great for me. Keeps the wifes family employed and keeps me in beer. I have another 10 rai that we (wifes family), are doing casava on for now but I may shift it to rubber in the future as well. I am only doing the casava to bridge until the trees begin producing and at that point will want to do something different, likely rubber or palm oil. Not sure if there is enough rain for palm oil but others in the area are doing it and the water table seems quite shallow on our land, irrigation should be easy if required.

At the end of the day I just love the idea of having a farm, its a cheap way of keeping the inlaws employed and the supplimental income stream will be nice.

Thanks for all the information you have posted to date, it has been good to have a source of information to test the inlaws ideas against. Luckily one of the inlaws actually worked in the south of Thailand on a large rubber plantation for about 10 years, his comments line up very well with what you have posted.

Ray, Sorry for the thread jacking. Now lets hear it from the sugar producers out there.......

[Ray2020]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your kind invitation to us to visit you and your spread. We are sure to take you up on it. Meanwhile, please let us know if you would be travelling to the Udon area.

I would start here with a few comments on your post. We are a single rice planting area, rains only for a few months in a year and no irrigation. Yet, I do see quite a few healthy looking (in my eyes) rubber plantations, admittedly all young trees waiting to be tapped; except for one that is being tapped as we speak that seems to be producing a lot. Yesterday, we went to see a farm that looked pretty good at about 4-5 years in age; it sold quickly at 85,000 baht per rai. I have been told of many in the 100,000+ range. The reasons for these farms being on the market: running out of funds, absentee owner, divergent needs of descendents, etc., the usual reasons amplified by the long-term nature of rubber economics. Sometimes what appears to be too good to be true, is actually true, at least before digging deeply. Also, having bought the land for next to nothing and spending 20-25,000 baht per rai over 5-6 years and then being able to sell at 100,000 baht per rai isn’t too shabby.

But, intuitively though I feel that sugar-cane is a safer alternative albeit less lucrative; isn’t it always the trade-off in life.

Wife is more of a farm girl than a princess like some farang wives change into; thank god. The MIL lives next door and farms her six rai rice farm with occasional help from the village tractor and planting guys. Her husband works in Bangkok as a master-of-all-trades person in a multipurpose gas station complex with accommodation thrown in. He comes back to help out MIL during the rice planting and harvesting season; plus at Songkran and New Year holidays. He would like nothing better than to stay in the village, if he can earn some money locally. He is nearing 70 and the MIL is near 60, but both seem to be in good shape. Labor would be hard to find during the rice planting and harvesting seasons. Have no idea how to handle the collection if we ever get there.

Today, we looked at 80 rais at 50,000 baht per rai about 15km from us. Have few rais of eucalyptus and tagu (? sp) on it now.

Anyone knows about euca-nomics?

Read your blog. You own your life, have a nice wife, healthy kids and acceptable in-laws; are you day-dreaming?!

What kind of beer you drink? All kind?!

Dakling, you seemed to be where I would like to be in a couple of years. Best of luck to you; I will be watching you. No problem with being hijacked. Zigzagged thread in zigzagged life.

[afarang]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your kind invitation to us to visit you and your spread. We are sure to take you up on it. Meanwhile, please let us know if you would be travelling to the Udon area.

I would start here with a few comments on your post. We are a single rice planting area, rains only for a few months in a year and no irrigation. Yet, I do see quite a few healthy looking (in my eyes) rubber plantations, admittedly all young trees waiting to be tapped; except for one that is being tapped as we speak that seems to be producing a lot. Yesterday, we went to see a farm that looked pretty good at about 4-5 years in age; it sold quickly at 85,000 baht per rai. I have been told of many in the 100,000+ range. The reasons for these farms being on the market: running out of funds, absentee owner, divergent needs of descendents, etc., the usual reasons amplified by the long-term nature of rubber economics. Sometimes what appears to be too good to be true, is actually true, at least before digging deeply. Also, having bought the land for next to nothing and spending 20-25,000 baht per rai over 5-6 years and then being able to sell at 100,000 baht per rai isn't too shabby.

But, intuitively though I feel that sugar-cane is a safer alternative albeit less lucrative; isn't it always the trade-off in life.

Wife is more of a farm girl than a princess like some farang wives change into; thank god. The MIL lives next door and farms her six rai rice farm with occasional help from the village tractor and planting guys. Her husband works in Bangkok as a master-of-all-trades person in a multipurpose gas station complex with accommodation thrown in. He comes back to help out MIL during the rice planting and harvesting season; plus at Songkran and New Year holidays. He would like nothing better than to stay in the village, if he can earn some money locally. He is nearing 70 and the MIL is near 60, but both seem to be in good shape. Labor would be hard to find during the rice planting and harvesting seasons. Have no idea how to handle the collection if we ever get there.

Today, we looked at 80 rais at 50,000 baht per rai about 15km from us. Have few rais of eucalyptus and tagu (? sp) on it now.

Anyone knows about euca-nomics?

Read your blog. You own your life, have a nice wife, healthy kids and acceptable in-laws; are you day-dreaming?!

What kind of beer you drink? All kind?!

Dakling, you seemed to be where I would like to be in a couple of years. Best of luck to you; I will be watching you. No problem with being hijacked. Zigzagged thread in zigzagged life.

Euca-nomics- ratshit-total .Here in Southern Buriram ,most working people have or are pulling them out. Why? No money ,very poor return.Sure, lazy persons crop .Harvest once every 3-4 years.Can't live on that .

[jamescollister]

Hi Ray

Drink any kind of beer, but if you are paying not local. No plans to be heading north this year, but you never know.

Don't know anything about sugar cane, but it can't be that good a deal or people would be growing it instead of cassava. Cassava is a sugar crop used for ethanol. OK money for Thais, but not much for us.

Just a warning on cheap land, you may know this already, but just encase. Much of Thai farm land can not legally be sold, the Crown owns it. Thais do sell to each other, but the title stays with the original owner.You can not use it with the bank for collateral and if you upset the wrong people you can forfeit the land, step carefully. Especially if buying outside of your wife's area.

The only way you will be able to tell if the trees are good rubber producers is to go watch them tapping and not just once, go for a week and figure out the real out put in dry rubber not liquid latex. Factor in how long the tapping season is in the area. Some trees may take years to produce usable latex, that's why many only do cup. Good trees will produce latex for sheet rubber in about 2 weeks at the start of the season, bad trees longer or never. Check the branches, if any are lower than 3 meters from the ground, a good sign that the owners have not put a lot of effort in to there care. As for buying younger trees, not yet producing. That's a bit of a shot in the dark, they may look good, but you don't know the history of the clone, they could have been grown from seed for all you know.

I don't know where you got the 25,000 Baht per rai cost for maintenance, but it will be a lot more. Don't know you situation, do you have a pickup truck, tractor, add to that fertilizer, labor,grass cutters, poison and a 101 and one other thing. the costs mount up.

You can't plant till next year so you have plenty of time to go and look around and see. I have to say if I was starting out now, instead of nine years ago. I don't know whether I would try. Things are just getting too expensive here and how much more will it cost over the coming years. Maybe try sugar for a year and see how you go before getting in to a very long project. Best of luck Jim

[kwonitoy]

Anyone knows about euca-nomics?

Ray:

I got an education on your euca-nomics this year. Do not buy eucalyptus expecting to make a profit from it. If it is suitable land for rubber buy it but it has to be at a good price as you will have to clear the trees (not too hard) and dig out the stumps, and that gets pricey.

I bought 34 rai with ecu on it at the first of the year. The land is what I was after as its perfect for rubber. And I got it a good price as the people were hurting for money. We contacted people that make a living from cutting ecua and they offered us payment of 10,000baht to cut the trees and it would take 5 months. The wife and I both thought this has to be a scam so we decided to hire out the family and cut them ourselves. Long story short, it took 3weeks of cutting and after paying for labour (about 20people per day) food (more than a 1,000 per day), two chainsaws (I have one left) I lost about 60,000 baht on the deal. There is zero money in euca. Next stump removal. Backhoe for 12 days at 2500 baht per hour, adds up to a big number very quickly. Now burn off the stumps, more weeks of 20 people per day plus me out there with the tractor every day piling up wood and working the land. If you don't have your own tractor add that price into the total.

In the end I got what I wanted, a beautiful piece of land that is 100% useable and is now fully planted with rubber.

I also know what to do if I should clear more land. Hire a Cat bulldozer, push down the trees and pile them up and burn it.

Ken

[jopham]

Hello Ray2020

I will try to get the ball rolling with the sugarcane. I only look over the shoulder from my wife and would happy to be correctly corrected on any thing that write on this forum and please forgive me for my bad English since it is not my first langauge.

My Thai family-in-law grows sugarcane. They have plus minus 630 rai of which roughly 550 rai is sugarcane and 60 rai of rice and 20 rai of teak trees.

They would love to convert the 60 rai of rice to sugarcane but it is low lying and floods. The land you want to buy must high with good drainage and have a good water supply.(sugarcane does not like standing in water in the wet season but loves water in the dry season) They do their own planting, weeding, fertilizing, watering, harvesting and transporting to the sugarmill. They also cut another 50 rai for the next door neighboor. They employ 6 people fulltime and harvest time up to 35 people.

Besides labour cost, the biggest cost they have is diesel during the cutting season. So the first thing I would ask you is, how far are you from the nearest sugarmill? Because the sugarmills set a standand fee for the cutting and transport per tonne of sugarcane (I think last season it was about 300 baht per tonne) so if you are to far away from the sugarmill you will have problems finding contractor to do this. Finding a good contrator could be a big problem by it self. That why the F-I-L do it all them shelves.

Sugarcane gets planted once and for the next 3 years harvested (once a year) and if you look after them very well you might get a 4th year and then you need to replant. Planting cost are roughly 6500 - 7000bht including fertilizing, weeding and watering for the first year. Return could be a low as 8 tonne or as high 17 tonne per rai (F-I-L counts on 13 tonne per rai) The minimum price for sugarcane last year was set at 1050bht. If your sugar contence is higher then you get a bonus. The sugarmill takes a few samples from every truckload and test it for the sugar contence.

For example counting on 13 tonne times 1050bht minus 300bht (harvesting and transport) you would get 9250bht less 1st year planting cost. For a first year return about 2250bht - 2750bht per rai.

The second year the yield normally is higher by an average of 1 tonne per rai and your fertilizing, weeding and watering are roughly 3500bht - 4000bht per rai.

So the return would something like this: 14 times 1050bht minus 300bht (harvesting and transport) less 3500bht - 4000bht (fertilizing, weeding and watering) equals 6000bht -6500bht per rai.

The 3rd year yield is about same or maybe a little higher than the 1st year.

So the return would something like this: 13 times 1050bht minus 300bht (harvesting and transport) less 3500bht - 4000bht (fertilizing, weeding and watering) equals 5250bht -5750bht per rai. Than you have clean and preper the land for the new planting at 1500Bht - 2000Bht.

Then the cycle strats all over.

If you let grow for the 4th year you will get about 8-9 tonne per rai I have been told.

If any other members think that I am wrong with the above I would be happy to correct it. I am away ready to listen and learn.

I only look in the farming section once week or so. Expect a slow reply.

Cheers

jopham

[Ray2020]

Jim, I only look at land with Chanote or only one step lower. I do have a 4-wheel drive, raised suspension Toyota Vigo, but I do not own and rather not own a tractor. I have sent you PM.

Jopham, does your numbers include the labor cost? Even if it does, a return of ~15,000 baht per Rai over 4 (1+3) years does not look good to me when I might have to pay 45,000 baht per rai. Did I misunderstand your calculations?

Ken, thanks for warning. Euca is out for me.

So is it Cassava then?

The land I am looking at is highest in the neighborhood with a gentle slope. Yesterday, it rained very heavy. This morning there was no standing water.

Hello Ray2020

I will try to get the ball rolling with the sugarcane. I only look over the shoulder from my wife and would happy to be correctly corrected on any thing that write on this forum and please forgive me for my bad English since it is not my first langauge.

My Thai family-in-law grows sugarcane. They have plus minus 630 rai of which roughly 550 rai is sugarcane and 60 rai of rice and 20 rai of teak trees.

They would love to convert the 60 rai of rice to sugarcane but it is low lying and floods. The land you want to buy must high with good drainage and have a good water supply.(sugarcane does not like standing in water in the wet season but loves water in the dry season) They do their own planting, weeding, fertilizing, watering, harvesting and transporting to the sugarmill. They also cut another 50 rai for the next door neighboor. They employ 6 people fulltime and harvest time up to 35 people.

Besides labour cost, the biggest cost they have is diesel during the cutting season. So the first thing I would ask you is, how far are you from the nearest sugarmill? Because the sugarmills set a standand fee for the cutting and transport per tonne of sugarcane (I think last season it was about 300 baht per tonne) so if you are to far away from the sugarmill you will have problems finding contractor to do this. Finding a good contrator could be a big problem by it self. That why the F-I-L do it all them shelves.

Sugarcane gets planted once and for the next 3 years harvested (once a year) and if you look after them very well you might get a 4th year and then you need to replant. Planting cost are roughly 6500 - 7000bht including fertilizing, weeding and watering for the first year. Return could be a low as 8 tonne or as high 17 tonne per rai (F-I-L counts on 13 tonne per rai) The minimum price for sugarcane last year was set at 1050bht. If your sugar contence is higher then you get a bonus. The sugarmill takes a few samples from every truckload and test it for the sugar contence.

For example counting on 13 tonne times 1050bht minus 300bht (harvesting and transport) you would get 9250bht less 1st year planting cost. For a first year return about 2250bht - 2750bht per rai.

The second year the yield normally is higher by an average of 1 tonne per rai and your fertilizing, weeding and watering are roughly 3500bht - 4000bht per rai.

So the return would something like this: 14 times 1050bht minus 300bht (harvesting and transport) less 3500bht - 4000bht (fertilizing, weeding and watering) equals 6000bht -6500bht per rai.

The 3rd year yield is about same or maybe a little higher than the 1st year.

So the return would something like this: 13 times 1050bht minus 300bht (harvesting and transport) less 3500bht - 4000bht (fertilizing, weeding and watering) equals 5250bht -5750bht per rai. Than you have clean and preper the land for the new planting at 1500Bht - 2000Bht.

Then the cycle strats all over.

If you let grow for the 4th year you will get about 8-9 tonne per rai I have been told.

If any other members think that I am wrong with the above I would be happy to correct it. I am away ready to listen and learn.

I only look in the farming section once week or so. Expect a slow reply.

Cheers

jopham

[jopham]

Hi Ray2020

Yes according to what I know labour is included.

Cheers

jopham

[jamescollister]

Hi Ray2020

Yes according to what I know labour is included.

Cheers

jopham

Jopham having read your post I will take it you are now are main man on this forum on sugar. Hope it works out and keep us posted on how it goes, you never know how the oil prices may go and bio fuel may be a real go again. I for one am always looking at alternatives. Jim

[jopham]

Hi Ray2020

Yes according to what I know labour is included.

Cheers

jopham

Jopham having read your post I will take it you are now are main man on this forum on sugar. Hope it works out and keep us posted on how it goes, you never know how the oil prices may go and bio fuel may be a real go again. I for one am always looking at alternatives. Jim

Like I stated before, I am only looking over my wifes shoulder and trying to pick up what the family is talking about. So what I write here might be absolute rubbish. So, please correct me if I am wrong.

cheers

johpam

[afarang]

O.K.I posted long before how bad Euca is , economically. I live in Southern Buriram .Many years ago A giant con was perpetrated on our area. That was that to grow Euca was a fabulous earner. Turned out it was total bullershit. The price went down and down.Admittedly ,the G.F.C. did not help So, plantations where ripped out .basically , the only Euca left here ,now, is "what " grows around Paddy fields. Or on other waste land. Pretty near ALL upland is now planted to rubber. Cassava comes second . Sugar Cane comes a very poor third. We used to be a major Sugar cane producing area. No longer. Over the long term , people ,here , can see the economic benefits of rubber. I must repeat -LONG TERM. If you are prepared to sit out the 7 years ,without income,which is rubbish, income is available for about the first 4 years ,you will have an excellent long term economic future. Income for the first 4 years <EH?Not possible , you say? -wrong. You interplant with Cassava -(Mun Sumphalung). Today ,Mun is around(today) B 1,800 a ton. Looked after it will yield around 3 to 5 tons per crop , taking 1 year to reach maturity. As it is now a basic feed stock ,for bio-fuels ,it is going to be in increasingly in demand. You can grow Mun , until the canopy forms and denies it sunlight.As , I said about 4 crops. Go for rubber,but do not tap it yourself ,55555555 .End of story.

[jamescollister]

O.K.I posted long before how bad Euca is , economically. I live in Southern Buriram .Many years ago A giant con was perpetrated on our area. That was that to grow Euca was a fabulous earner. Turned out it was total bullershit. The price went down and down.Admittedly ,the G.F.C. did not help So, plantations where ripped out .basically , the only Euca left here ,now, is "what " grows around Paddy fields. Or on other waste land. Pretty near ALL upland is now planted to rubber. Cassava comes second . Sugar Cane comes a very poor third. We used to be a major Sugar cane producing area. No longer. Over the long term , people ,here , can see the economic benefits of rubber. I must repeat -LONG TERM. If you are prepared to sit out the 7 years ,without income,which is rubbish, income is available for about the first 4 years ,you will have an excellent long term economic future. Income for the first 4 years <EH?Not possible , you say? -wrong. You interplant with Cassava -(Mun Sumphalung). Today ,Mun is around(today) B 1,800 a ton. Looked after it will yield around 3 to 5 tons per crop , taking 1 year to reach maturity. As it is now a basic feed stock ,for bio-fuels ,it is going to be in increasingly in demand. You can grow Mun , until the canopy forms and denies it sunlight.As , I said about 4 crops. Go for rubber,but do not tap it yourself ,55555555 .End of story.

You have been here a lot longer than I, but I am am not sure that the way costs are going up whether rubber is now such a good deal any more. very long term investment. Maybe very good for a pension fund, but after the outlay a lot of years before you get your money back and make a profit. Any thoughts on the longer term. Not that I care I will be long dead by then, but starting out now may leave a lot for your kids, but not much money for someone who is getting a bit older. Jim

[afarang]

Jim,I would say rubber is the most profitable of the farming enterprises. That is not to say it is as good ,now as it was a few years back, Because the price of land has risen dramatically in the past few years. I bought land about 12 to 15 years ago ,non-chanote for B4,000 per Rai, Now that land is in the vicinity of B40-60,000 per Rai. Something that is a bit strange is ,in our area we getting a lot of Chinese -Thai outsiders coming to buy land, amassing quite large holdings. Planting rubber. Nobody knows where they are coming from, though some have suggested they are from the South. But they are buying anything they can get their hands on. Certainly ,other costs like fertilisers ,etc. have increased a lot.As has the price of "baby" trees But so has the price ,particularly of sheet. I cannot see prices retreating any time soon, while demand from China and India ,is so strong. And if it is a fact that we are near peak oil , what happens to Synthetic oil? Which ,most probably should be pointed out, is an excellent indicator for the price of Natural Rubber.At the moment/

[jamescollister]

Jim,I would say rubber is the most profitable of the farming enterprises. That is not to say it is as good ,now as it was a few years back, Because the price of land has risen dramatically in the past few years. I bought land about 12 to 15 years ago ,non-chanote for B4,000 per Rai, Now that land is in the vicinity of B40-60,000 per Rai. Something that is a bit strange is ,in our area we getting a lot of Chinese -Thai outsiders coming to buy land, amassing quite large holdings. Planting rubber. Nobody knows where they are coming from, though some have suggested they are from the South. But they are buying anything they can get their hands on. Certainly ,other costs like fertilisers ,etc. have increased a lot.As has the price of "baby" trees But so has the price ,particularly of sheet. I cannot see prices retreating any time soon, while demand from China and India ,is so strong. And if it is a fact that we are near peak oil , what happens to Synthetic oil? Which ,most probably should be pointed out, is an excellent indicator for the price of Natural Rubber.At the moment/

Afarang think I was about 3 beers over my internet limit last night. What I was trying to say was, as you said, things cost a lot more now than when I started. Last year had about 6 visitors, all late 40's 50's come visit, looking at rubber Now by the time they plant and grow trees and get enough returns to pay back the original costs. It is going to get longer and longer.

I still think rubber is a very good investment and for me it meant retirement at 53 years old, but now a days with the higher costs it may not be as attractive, if you are not likely to live to break even point.

As for Thai/Chinese, we have had them here, even to the point they were looking for land by helicopter. Some bought and planted, but don't think many have made it. Jai dam [black hearts] the locals don't take kindly to strangers. BKK is another country here. If your not local your not welcome, except for me, I'm just their pet farang. Jim

[afarang]

Quite correct re/: Pay back time. It is ,now, much longer ,but by the same token ,there has been a hefty increase in sheet rubber prices over the past 4-5 years. Land prices ,now mean that many of us could not afford to buy land any more.. You need to be well cashed up to buy land today. If you want to see what effect rubber has had on our local community ,come and have a look at Ban Kruat. town ,The development is nothing short of phenomenal. All of it as a result of rubber. There is money ,in this community now. About 50 new shops have been built in the last 3-4 years. It is an amazing transformation. But we still have no supermarket, and only one bank, which has a reputation as the worst branch in the world. Bill

[jamescollister]

Quite correct re/: Pay back time. It is ,now, much longer ,but by the same token ,there has been a hefty increase in sheet rubber prices over the past 4-5 years. Land prices ,now mean that many of us could not afford to buy land any more.. You need to be well cashed up to buy land today. If you want to see what effect rubber has had on our local community ,come and have a look at Ban Kruat. town ,The development is nothing short of phenomenal. All of it as a result of rubber. There is money ,in this community now. About 50 new shops have been built in the last 3-4 years. It is an amazing transformation. But we still have no supermarket, and only one bank, which has a reputation as the worst branch in the world. Bill

Bill hear what you are saying, here the world has changed because of rubber. Dirt tracks now are bitumen roads, Buntharik my nearest town is getting a Tesco/Lotus. The next main village to me, 400 homes bought 70 brand new pickup trucks last year. Rubber is oil and those who were in at the start have made it. It is just going to get harder to get your foot in the door now. jim