Debt Crisis Gather 20,000 Farmers In Bangkok

[george]

Debt crisis brings 20,000 farmers to protest in Bangkok

NAKHON RATCHASIMA: -- Debt-ridden farmers from throughout the country will gather in Bangkok Monday to protest government inaction in helping solve their debt crisis.

Veerapol Sopha, advisor of the People's Organisations Network of Thailand, announced Sunday that some 20,000 farmers will rally at the Royal Plaza in central Bangkok to demand government action in resolving their debts. The farmers are members of the Network from five regions.

On August 4, Mr. Veerapol said, the government asked for 60 days to help resolve farmers' chronic debt through the Fund to Rehabilitate and Develop Farmers. The deadline has passed without action by the government, so the farmers will travel to Bangkok.

The Network is urging the government to name 21 members now to the debt management committee to expedite solving the debt crisis through the Fund for Rehabilitation and Development of Farmers Act B.E. 2542. (1999)

According to academic Somkiat Pongpaiboon--also an advisor to the Assembly for the Poor--average household debt stood at Bt 68,279 in 2001 and shot up to Bt 104,571 per family at end of 2004, as debt accumulated on average of over Bt 12,000 per year in the last three years.

--TNA 2005-10-23

[The_Moog]

to protest government inaction in helping solve their debt crisis

Nobody forced them to borrow money. Pay your debts !

(Chuwit Kamonvisit will help them find jobs for their daughters.)

[Heng]

Exactly. Step one... don't borrow. If you can't pay cash for it, don't buy it.

[OZONE]

Exactly.  Step one... don't borrow.    If you can't pay cash for it, don't buy it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, step one would be to stop buying "maekong whiskey", thannnn, stop borrowing the money

[britmaveric]

Exactly.  Step one... don't borrow.    If you can't pay cash for it, don't buy it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, step one would be to stop buying "maekong whiskey", thannnn, stop borrowing the money

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Add fags and gambling to the mix as well!!!

[plachon]

Exactly.  Step one... don't borrow.    If you can't pay cash for it, don't buy it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I couldn't agree more with you Heng. But how does lending fit into your simple one step process to solving the debt crisis? Could it not be the other side of the coin?

May I suggest that as you are so touchingly concerned about the lot of the poor, debt-ridden Isaan peasant and would obviously hate to profit from their tendency to falling into debt, that you donate a small proportion of your squeaky clean fortune to the cause of eradicating debt once and for all.

You could start by hiring a fleet of pick-up trucks, of the sort employed by politicians, dept. stores and cinemas with large billboard loosely secured to back and industrial-strength amp and speakers on roof. Next, you paint up the board with an eye-catching sign lauding the benefits of cash-only purchases and recording a message for the tape to blare out singing the praises of debt-avoidance and warning about the risks of loan sharks, pawn shops and over the top interest rates. Lastly, you simply send your fleet of trucks to the far ends of Isaan and systematically work the from village to village and province to province until every last village has been covered. Peanuts to you and who knows, you may see a satisfying drop in clientele by the end of the year, proving the worth of practicing what you preach.

[Thetyim]

Taksin should announce a new scheme immediately.

The banks should lend money to the farmers so that the farmers can pay off their debts.

Thailand the hub of good ideas.

[womble]

This is very interesting. It'll probobally only turn out to be 10,000 or so, they always make it out to be more, that goes for rallys the world over.

The interesting thing is though that this is farmers from Korat, an area that TRT is supposed to command a lot of support. It's only 60 days since the Debt relief was announced, the fact they are rallying so soon shows one thing.

They have had enough of empty promises. You can only promise so much without delivering. It seems YKH has had the Midas touch until now, but with rising inflation, things could be set to change big time.

NPL's will grow, the Middle class will become more in dept, and as usual it's the poor who will suffer the most.

Censoring the polls, and stricter media censorship is the last resort for a sinking ship.

One thing to be sure though, you can hide the truth when it comes to corruption, but with internal security (the south), you can only use excuses for a limited time, you can't keep telling everyone things are fine, it doesn't work. You can brush corruption under the table, and the general public are used to that, but the killings of monks, innocent people and childeren cannot be ignored. Maybe it won't be long until people with more power than YKH realise that the only way to solve the problem is to get rid of the problem.

If you check todays news they have announced yet another change of tactic

Edited October 24, 2005 by womble

[opothai]

debt is a problem, some of the debt self generated and some by causes beyond the control of the farmer,ie lack of rain for crops, bird flu, surely the government has to look into the situation.

have you seen the way the farmers work, especially in the bird flu situation.

unless the government does help, the chicken farmers will not be concerned about the spread of the disease but more concerned about selling any infected stock on quickly, and how much will that cost the government long term.

as for the crop farmers if they do not get help for loss of crops are they going to invest next year in crops that could give no return, given that scenario in the long term it creates shortages, higher prices and an even more disgruntled poor community.

[Heng]

Exactly.   Step one... don't borrow.     If you can't pay cash for it, don't buy it.  

I couldn't agree more with you Heng. But how does lending fit into your simple one step process to solving the debt crisis? Could it not be the other side of the coin?

May I suggest that as you are so touchingly concerned about the lot of the poor, debt-ridden Isaan peasant and would obviously hate to profit from their tendency to falling into debt, that you donate a small proportion of your squeaky clean fortune to the cause of eradicating debt once and for all.

You could start by hiring a fleet of pick-up trucks, of the sort employed by politicians, dept. stores and cinemas with large billboard loosely secured to back and industrial-strength amp and speakers on roof. Next, you paint up the board with an eye-catching sign lauding the benefits of cash-only purchases and recording a message for the tape to blare out singing the praises of debt-avoidance and warning about the risks of loan sharks, pawn shops and over the top interest rates. Lastly, you simply send your fleet of trucks to the far ends of Isaan and systematically work the from village to village and province to province until every last village has been covered. Peanuts to you and who knows, you may see a satisfying drop in clientele by the end of the year, proving the worth of practicing what you preach.

It's a perfect fit actually. I don't know a single family member in debt... and when they are it's typically short term swing or bridge financing for business.

I'm taking a more grass roots approach, but yes it's something along the lines of what you suggest. Mostly with family members, cousins, nieces, nephews, etc. Not just myself, but most of the better off elders of this family make sure that anyone (as long as they are in our clan) has their schooling paid for... and with that schooling comes a mentor-apprentice relationship that preaches the superiority of cash over credit. It's not always a free ride (especially if they aren't that diligent in their studies), but at the very least it's the equivalent of a partial scholarship. Cash is king really is the motto, and there are always lessons/stories about debtors letting their finances get away from them so everyone knows the perils of living on the other side of the balance sheet. And like the nature of all families, with time, the philosophy is practiced by more and more people over time.

[parryhandy]

Exactly.  Step one... don't borrow.    If you can't pay cash for it, don't buy it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

what about the 100s of companies (owned buy the rich thais) that went belly up in the crash ? they can get away without paying their debts. farming is a bussiness like any other and should be seperated from personel exposure. Also didnt the PM promise to wipe the slate clean in the 1st trt election campaign then promptly backtracked as soon as he was elected ?

[Heng]

Exactly.   Step one... don't borrow.     If you can't pay cash for it, don't buy it.  

what about the 100s of companies (owned buy the rich thais) that went belly up in the crash ? they can get away without paying their debts. farming is a bussiness like any other and should be seperated from personel exposure.

Not all businesses are separated from personal exposure. If these farmers went through the trouble of establishing limited partnerships, companies, etc.... they would have had some measure of protection.

[stumonster]

I wonder how much of this debt can be attributed to post paid mobile phone accounts?

[thailien8]

I wonder how much of this debt can be attributed to post paid mobile phone accounts? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A considerable portion I would think Still, it's encouraging to see the scales falling from the eyes of poor farmers who mostly wanted to believe Thaksin's election campaign promises. As Bangkok Post (26/10/05) reported:

"Several thousand farmers protested in Bangkok yesterday to again demand the government solve their debt problems. Farmers from across the country rallied at Government House calling for action on a promise made in August by Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra to solve their debt problems within 60 days with the Farmers Debt Rehabilitation and Development Fund.

Mr Thaksin's deadline has passed, speakers said. They said they had waited more than 80 days and there was no end in sight to their financial woes.

The leaders of the protest met with Prapat Panyachartrak, chairman of the fund, and gave him 10 demands to pass on to the prime minister.

Jularat Niratisayakul, acting secretary-general of the fund's office, said the farmers had misunderstood Mr Thaksin's promise. The 60-day deadline was actually only for them to register their debt cases."

Ah yes, of course. The poor farmers, in their eagerness to believe that Thaksin would actually help them, "misunderstood" his promise. Sorry about that. Another honest mistake?

[Heng]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

[chuchok]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would imagine that the so called retards have had about a tenth of the education that you enjoyed.

[Heng]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

I would imagine that the so called retards have had about a tenth of the education that you enjoyed.

The point being that even if that 1/10 included 'addition' and 'subtraction' (no 'division' and 'multiplication' required) and perhaps 'counting' as an elective, they have all the knowledge they need.

[sierra01]

If a farmer has got into debt through no fault of his own (weather, bird flu, bad Govt advise/projects etc) then it would be good for the Govt to help, but all too often the borrowed money doesn’t go on improving the farm or whatever, in that case let them sink or swim themselves. It’s always going to be dodgy helping these people; they don’t seem very good at managing money in general so if he needs a cow, give him a cow, not the money to buy it with. Yes he can always sell the cow but give him a chance, if he abuses it once then no more Govt help. Same with the teachers, they’re demanding debt relief too. What’s their excuse? Living beyond their means me thinks.

When I moved out here I rented out my apartment through an agent, the first 6 months everything was ok, the tenants renewed the lease then promptly stopped paying. To cut a long story short the agent was useless, I ended up having the apartment repossessed, credit worthiness on the floor and I lost a great deal of money, many 1000’s of £. Before I could sue the agent he went out of business, and all through no fault of my own. Did I get Govt help? You know the answer to that one!

If you can’t afford the repayments don’t borrow, if you still borrow then it’s your problem, no one else’s.

[OZONE]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would imagine that the so called retards have had about a tenth of the education that you enjoyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point being that even if that 1/10 included 'addition' and 'subtraction' (no 'division' and 'multiplication' required) and perhaps 'counting' as an elective, they have all the knowledge they need.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're assuming that they are uneducated ofcourse?. I'm sure most Thai understand their economic situation and wouldn't be as foolish as you think. I also do not believe that the Farmers are spending foolishly most of the time. I'm sure the cost of Farming increased and the recent terrbile event(s) in Thailand didn't help much either (ie: flood, cird flu, Tsunami...etc).

By the way, I personally know many educated Thai who has no choice but to accept the 6000 baht a month salary just because Employment are scarse. They're not too proud to accept these mediocre jobs just to feed their family. I respect them more so just because they realized what is actually important. In contrast to the states where people are too proud to accept a job @ McDonald but rather ask the gov't for welfair. Which would you prefer?

[chuchok]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would imagine that the so called retards have had about a tenth of the education that you enjoyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point being that even if that 1/10 included 'addition' and 'subtraction' (no 'division' and 'multiplication' required) and perhaps 'counting' as an elective, they have all the knowledge they need.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Addition and subtration are not enough alone. They have to be shown how to apply it.If schools were a little more practicle in their teachings etc, surely the situation would improve.

(I bet that 10th didn't also include "Common sense" knowledge passed down from family members....who also had a shitty education..)

[Heng]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

I would imagine that the so called retards have had about a tenth of the education that you enjoyed.

The point being that even if that 1/10 included 'addition' and 'subtraction' (no 'division' and 'multiplication' required) and perhaps 'counting' as an elective, they have all the knowledge they need.

You're assuming that they are uneducated ofcourse?. I'm sure most Thai understand their economic situation and wouldn't be as foolish as you think. I also do not believe that the Farmers are spending foolishly most of the time. I'm sure the cost of Farming increased and the recent terrbile event(s) in Thailand didn't help much either (ie: flood, cird flu, Tsunami...etc).

By the way, I personally know many educated Thai who has no choice but to accept the 6000 baht a month salary just because Employment are scarse. They're not too proud to accept these mediocre jobs just to feed their family. I respect them more so just because they realized what is actually important. In contrast to the states where people are too proud to accept a job @ McDonald but rather ask the gov't for welfair. Which would you prefer?

Actually my original comment was sarcasm that what is required is a revamped education system. I've seen far too many success stories in this world and certainly in Thailand to believe that formal education is a prerequisite for having success and using common sense in life's decisions.

I certainly admire those who choose work over handouts as well, what conservative right wing business person wouldn't?

[Heng]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

I would imagine that the so called retards have had about a tenth of the education that you enjoyed.

The point being that even if that 1/10 included 'addition' and 'subtraction' (no 'division' and 'multiplication' required) and perhaps 'counting' as an elective, they have all the knowledge they need.

Addition and subtration are not enough alone. They have to be shown how to apply it.If schools were a little more practicle in their teachings etc, surely the situation would improve.

(I bet that 10th didn't also include "Common sense" knowledge passed down from family members....who also had a shitty education..)

If they didn't get common sense from home, they are unlikely to find it at school. Public service announcements on television and radio from the gov't and private sector, IMO are more effective than trying to teach common sense in school.

[p_brownstone]

Thai Farmers have always been in debt, their lifestyle, tied as it is to the cycle of planting to harvest gave them little choice. With no Capital of any significance they had to borrow money every year from the local Tow Kae – usually the Rice Miller or Seed / Fertiliser distributor – pledged against the projected revenue from the sale of Produce after harvest; which had to be sold via the original lender of the money, thus giving him the upper hand in price negotiations of course.

Whilst by no means an ideal system, with experience, proper planning and management it worked reasonably well and farmers in general were self reliant and prudent in deciding what luxuries to buy - they knew that if they allowed the debt to grow unpaid their farmland would be confiscated by the Tow Kae.

The Thai Rak Thai populist policies of throwing money at every problem has virtually destroyed the farmers’ decades old culture of self reliance, and the attitude now is that it’s OK to buy a Motorcycle, a Mobile ‘Phone etc. on Credit because someone will eventually come along to bail them out with a government subsidy or a debt moratorium.

This is the true and long lasting legacy of Thai Rak Thai and Taksin – family debt is ballooning out of control because people expect the government to continue with the handouts, Village Funds or whatever. Unfortunately the barrel is not bottomless and when the next crisis comes it is the poor who will suffer most, not, as in 1997, mainly the rich.

Patrick

[stumonster]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

or they could also revamp the corruption/nepotistic/stupidity infested bureaucratic system that the country is saddled with. ie. use the funds allocated to them to maintain and upgrade the countries infrastructure rather than spend it on maintaining their facades. maybe then the poor retarded farmers can access a power/transport/communications system that does not require them to stuff the coffers of abjectly corrupt w4nkers and would see that their sons and daughters get the educations that would allow them to utilise their family holdings more effectively.

</rant>

[WhiteShiva]

If they didn't get common sense from home, they are unlikely to find it at school.  Public service announcements on television and radio from the gov't and private sector, IMO are more effective than trying to teach common sense in school.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on!

[plachon]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would imagine that the so called retards have had about a tenth of the education that you enjoyed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point being that even if that 1/10 included 'addition' and 'subtraction' (no 'division' and 'multiplication' required) and perhaps 'counting' as an elective, they have all the knowledge they need.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're assuming that they are uneducated ofcourse?. I'm sure most Thai understand their economic situation and wouldn't be as foolish as you think. I also do not believe that the Farmers are spending foolishly most of the time. I'm sure the cost of Farming increased and the recent terrbile event(s) in Thailand didn't help much either (ie: flood, cird flu, Tsunami...etc).

By the way, I personally know many educated Thai who has no choice but to accept the 6000 baht a month salary just because Employment are scarse. They're not too proud to accept these mediocre jobs just to feed their family. I respect them more so just because they realized what is actually important. In contrast to the states where people are too proud to accept a job @ McDonald but rather ask the gov't for welfair. Which would you prefer?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually my original comment was sarcasm that what is required is a revamped education system. I've seen far too many success stories in this world and certainly in Thailand to believe that formal education is a prerequisite for having success and using common sense in life's decisions.

I certainly admire those who choose work over handouts as well, what conservative right wing business person wouldn't?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heng, my dear facist fellow, I think you are confusing business acumen with common sense in your derisory comments about the farmers and poor of Thailand. Your circle of friends and aquaintances, who put money above all else as the measure of a person's success, and have had the benefit of an expensive education, (either at home or abroad) usually have one tenth the common sense of the average Isaan farmer that I know. Your lily-livered constitution would not last 12 hours in the heat and dust of an Isaan farm, yet the same Isaan farmer seems to do a pretty good job adjusting to the vile conditions of Klong Toey and other slums forced on him/her by the urban elite. That's because they have common sense and an inate sense of survival. The rich know it, so they must do all they can to put them down, take advantage of them and keep the masses in their place by any means, in case they should one day learn "the truth" about their condition in life.

I would go so far as to say, the average Isaan person of farming stock has more common sense in their little finger, than the average Thai-Chinese businessman with tertiary education has in their whole being. If you don't believe me, look at how the Isaan gals manage to learn perfect English at 1/1000th cost of their rich, urban counterparts, by doing it "on the job". Now, that's common sense.

I admire those people who still manage to smile and laugh, after pushing their food barrow from Klong Toey to National Stadium, being ripped off by the Tessagit cops, working in the heat and grime of Bangkok for a pittance, to keep the city fed and their family clothed and fed, while still being despised as "retards" by the rich. But then what left-wing, liberal minded, humanist wouldn't?

[OZONE]

If they didn't get common sense from home, they are unlikely to find it at school.  Public service announcements on television and radio from the gov't and private sector, IMO are more effective than trying to teach common sense in school.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Teaching common sense in school?. Where I came from, common sense weren't taught, It came naturally . If I may ask, what subject in school teaches you "common sense"?

[Chang_paarp]

Teaching common sense in school?.  Where I came from, common sense weren't taught, It came naturally  .  If I may ask, what subject in school teaches you "common sense"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is the old " I didnot teach that to my child, you should have. It is not my fault..." senario

I see this creepng into too many societies. No one wants to accept resonsibility for anything especially their one thoughts and actions.

[Heng]

Thai Farmers have always been in debt, their lifestyle, tied as it is to the cycle of planting to harvest gave them little choice. With no Capital of any significance they had to borrow money every year from the local Tow Kae – usually the Rice Miller or Seed / Fertiliser distributor – pledged against the projected revenue from the sale of Produce after harvest; which had to be sold via the original lender of the money, thus giving him the upper hand in price negotiations of course.

Whilst by no means an ideal system, with experience, proper planning and management it worked reasonably well and farmers in general were self reliant and prudent in deciding what luxuries to buy - they knew that if they allowed the debt to grow unpaid their farmland would be confiscated by the Tow Kae.

The Thai Rak Thai populist policies of throwing money at every problem has virtually destroyed the farmers’ decades old culture of self reliance, and the attitude now is that it’s OK to buy a Motorcycle, a Mobile ‘Phone etc. on Credit because someone will eventually come along to bail them out with a government subsidy or a debt moratorium.

This is the true and long lasting legacy of Thai Rak Thai and Taksin – family debt is ballooning out of control because people expect the government to continue with the handouts, Village Funds or whatever. Unfortunately the barrel is not bottomless and when the next crisis comes it is the poor who will suffer most, not, as in 1997, mainly the rich.

Patrick

There was a lack of prudence long before Thai Rak Thai. Hundreds of thousands of farmer's daughters running to prostitution since the 1960's may not "prove" this but certainly suggests it.

Thai Rak Thai is hardly a new political party or movement. It's just a new name for the same old status quo. At least for the next hundred years to come, we'll have an example of what happens when you give handouts to those who can't manage their household budgets. I hardly see any widescale suffering as part of the near future either. It's no different than when you have a child who foolishly spent his/her allowance on candy. They're still family members and still have access to room and board.

[Heng]

Yeah they need to revamp the education system because poor retards don't understand why they shouldn't be running up 2,000 Baht a month phone bills when they only make 6,000 Baht a month.

I would imagine that the so called retards have had about a tenth of the education that you enjoyed.

The point being that even if that 1/10 included 'addition' and 'subtraction' (no 'division' and 'multiplication' required) and perhaps 'counting' as an elective, they have all the knowledge they need.

You're assuming that they are uneducated ofcourse?. I'm sure most Thai understand their economic situation and wouldn't be as foolish as you think. I also do not believe that the Farmers are spending foolishly most of the time. I'm sure the cost of Farming increased and the recent terrbile event(s) in Thailand didn't help much either (ie: flood, cird flu, Tsunami...etc).

By the way, I personally know many educated Thai who has no choice but to accept the 6000 baht a month salary just because Employment are scarse. They're not too proud to accept these mediocre jobs just to feed their family. I respect them more so just because they realized what is actually important. In contrast to the states where people are too proud to accept a job @ McDonald but rather ask the gov't for welfair. Which would you prefer?

Actually my original comment was sarcasm that what is required is a revamped education system. I've seen far too many success stories in this world and certainly in Thailand to believe that formal education is a prerequisite for having success and using common sense in life's decisions.

I certainly admire those who choose work over handouts as well, what conservative right wing business person wouldn't?

Heng, my dear facist fellow, I think you are confusing business acumen with common sense in your derisory comments about the farmers and poor of Thailand. Your circle of friends and aquaintances, who put money above all else as the measure of a person's success, and have had the benefit of an expensive education, (either at home or abroad) usually have one tenth the common sense of the average Isaan farmer that I know. Your lily-livered constitution would not last 12 hours in the heat and dust of an Isaan farm, yet the same Isaan farmer seems to do a pretty good job adjusting to the vile conditions of Klong Toey and other slums forced on him/her by the urban elite. That's because they have common sense and an inate sense of survival. The rich know it, so they must do all they can to put them down, take advantage of them and keep the masses in their place by any means, in case they should one day learn "the truth" about their condition in life.

I would go so far as to say, the average Isaan person of farming stock has more common sense in their little finger, than the average Thai-Chinese businessman with tertiary education has in their whole being. If you don't believe me, look at how the Isaan gals manage to learn perfect English at 1/1000th cost of their rich, urban counterparts, by doing it "on the job". Now, that's common sense.

I admire those people who still manage to smile and laugh, after pushing their food barrow from Klong Toey to National Stadium, being ripped off by the Tessagit cops, working in the heat and grime of Bangkok for a pittance, to keep the city fed and their family clothed and fed, while still being despised as "retards" by the rich. But then what left-wing, liberal minded, humanist wouldn't?

Now there's a well thought out unemotional argument if I've ever seen one, especially the part about Issan hookers who speak perfect English.

Note, I admire those wheelbarrel folks as well. The retards are those living beyond their means... this includes members of ALL economic classes by the way; the only reason for the focus on poor retards is because the stupidity therein is multiplied when these excesses put members of their families in physical danger (from having less food + medicine, possibly losing their home, family land, etc.) all in exchange for life's non-necessities: Honda Dreams, Sangsom Whiskey, Nokias, and so forth.