Many Thais Say Corruption Is Acceptable If Country Prospers, Poll Finds

[webfact]

Many say corruption OK if country prospers, poll finds

By The Nation

Nearly two-thirds of all Thais (64.5 per cent) believe corruption is acceptable if the new government makes the country prosper, promotes people's well-being and benefits the respondents themselves, while 35.5 per cent said otherwise, an Abac poll reported yesterday.

The percentage of those agreeing to corrupt government - if it benefits them - was particularly large (at about 70 per cent) among respondents aged under 20 and between 20-29.

The July poll - involving 2,559 people over 18 from 17 provinces including Bangkok - found the respondents would file complaints against corrupt community leaders (74.4 per cent), civil servants (72.9 per cent), politicians (72.2 per cent), ministers (71.7 per cent), and people living under the same roof (70.8 per cent).

The percentage of those saying they would file complaints declined when it involved someone closer; neighbours (61 per cent), relatives (51 per cent) one's own parents or children (43 per cent) and oneself (38.1 per cent).

Respondents - 67.8 per cent - said prime minister-elect Yingluck Shinawatra was suitable to lead the campaign for Thai transparency and honesty, while 32.2 per cent disagreed.

-- The Nation 2011-07-21

[pmgthailand]

Kind of says it all about Thailand doesn't it. That a political party with a fugitive ex leader wins a landslide. IMO this country is morally bankrupt.

[rkidlad]

Are some people really that short sighted? The reason most people can't prosper 'is' because of corruption! Do these people who think corruption is okay have dreams of becoming rich themselves one day? Do they think the only way to become rich is to be corrupt? Therefore, you may as well allow it because it might come in handy in the future.

A lot of the rich Thais are so rich it's vulgar. I'd personally like to Robin Hood the lot of 'em.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Like most people they look around them--consciously or unconsciously--and get an idea from others what "works." In Thailand, it is clear that corruption is the way to "get rich." I agree with PMGthailand, the country is "morally bankrupt." That is one reason I would never trust a Thai for any reason, especially business. The moral bankruptcy really took off about eleven years ago. There is no rule of law, no honor, no moral base; it is a dying society/culture. Unfortunately, for expats living here, the future does not look good.

[pmgthailand]

Yes people are very short sighted here. It a "what's in it for me" attitude that pervades this country and will keep it destined to always be a third world country.

[animatic]

Corruption is essentially,

Taxation Without Representation.

[MengWan]

When will we see a poll to know how many people find that murdering someone is OK if it brings wealth ?

This kind of poll is pure trash, it should be forbidden (and those who pay for them put to jail) !

By the way, how the question is made is funny, because it supposes that corruption CAN bring something

to the "general people" other than ruin and national despair (beside a lot of money to a few clans).

[whybother]

The percentage of those agreeing to corrupt government - if it benefits them - was particularly large (at about 70 per cent) among respondents aged under 20 and between 20-29.

That's a big problem for Thailand's future.

The July poll - involving 2,559 people over 18 from 17 provinces including Bangkok - found the respondents would file complaints against corrupt community leaders (74.4 per cent), civil servants (72.9 per cent), politicians (72.2 per cent), ministers (71.7 per cent), and people living under the same roof (70.8 per cent).

The percentage of those saying they would file complaints declined when it involved someone closer; neighbours (61 per cent), relatives (51 per cent) one's own parents or children (43 per cent) and oneself (38.1 per cent).

"same roof" ... ... "someone closer" ... "neighbours .., relatives ... parents"

I'm just flabbergasted with the stupidity ...

[pmgthailand]

I have lived here for a little more than 5 years now. For me the rot set in about 2 years ago.Living in Phuket you get the all worst of Thailand all in one place. I just can no longer live in a country where corruption is the norm and not the exception. As a foreigner living i Thailand, I feel very much like a second class citizen, we no rights here. I understand a little bit of Thai now and it is quite shocking to overhear Thais talking about you in a derogatory manner when they think that you don't know the lingo. LOS my ass. What do you show when you smile? YOUR TEETH! I will not renew my contract here in the next couple of months. I've had enough! There is more to life than making money, which seems to be the number on priority here, regardless of how it's done.

Most people on the Phuket forum will be happy to see me go. All I do is complain about Thailand, but lately I haven't had anything good to post about this place. Sorry but's that's my take on it and my opinion. We are still allowed to have our own opinions aren't we?

Like most people they look around them--consciously or unconsciously--and get an idea from others what "works." In Thailand, it is clear that corruption is the way to "get rich." I agree with PMGthailand, the country is "morally bankrupt." That is one reason I would never trust a Thai for any reason, especially business. The moral bankruptcy really took off about eleven years ago. There is no rule of law, no honor, no moral base; it is a dying society/culture. Unfortunately, for expats living here, the future does not look good.

[Thai at Heart]

I think the most obvious question to counter this arguement would be "Do you think the country will prosper more if there is no corruption?"

Corruption is so rooted in culture, and it is a scourge on the economy because it allows people to be exploited, and money is pushed into the completely wrong parts of the economy and thus EVERYONE suffers. The amount of tax evasion in this country is enormous, and yet, people moan about the state of the roads and a myriad of other issues. I am convinced there is more than enough available tax money in the country to pay for every policy that the new government wants to enable, but millions of businesses here spends their time feathering their nest without seeing the benefit to the country of paying their dues. The only other place I have seen similar is modern day China. Take care of yourselves, because my fellow man is not my family. Other countries in Asia have tackled it well, and others are appearing to take it very seriously to really tackle the problem.

All I can conclude is that no one in the country has realised that the costs to society of corruption ALWAYS outweigh the benefits. But then that would need someone to teach people this concept, and we have had a thousand threads about the state of the Thai education system, so there we have it. Pure and simple.

[whybother]

All I can conclude is that no one in the country has realised that the costs to society of corruption ALWAYS outweigh the benefits. But then that would need someone to teach people this concept, and we have had a thousand threads about the state of the Thai education system, so there we have it. Pure and simple.

It's a bit hard for the teachers to teach that corruption is bad and why corruption is bad, when generally they are just as everyone else.

[Thai at Heart]

All I can conclude is that no one in the country has realised that the costs to society of corruption ALWAYS outweigh the benefits. But then that would need someone to teach people this concept, and we have had a thousand threads about the state of the Thai education system, so there we have it. Pure and simple.

It's a bit hard for the teachers to teach that corruption is bad and why corruption is bad, when generally they are just as everyone else.

Says it all doesn't it.

The problem is that people in Thailand know that the government is as corrupt as them, so why on earth should they bother to pay their taxes? It is a vicious circle, and whilst it is nice to talk about subsidizing fuels and rice and healthcare, any government would be swimming in cash if they could simply get out of the economy what is mandated by law.

I would take taxes on SMEs and halve them but lock up anyone running an SME who didn't pay his tax. Close up the ludicrous loopholes that Thaksin drove AIS through and the such, change the 51/49 ownership rules to allow more medium size FDI in the country, and slowly weedle away at the informal economy in the country. One way, although it isn't popular would be to reform the VAT system in the way that China has done. Everyone wants a VAT receipt because the government runs a lottery on the receipts. Very very smart. For a 100 rmb VAT receipt, and individual can win up to 50k USD approx.

When was the last serious review of the tax law in this country? 20 years/30 years ago?????? This is what I was hoping that Korn would get around to doing, so that closing tax loopholes regularly would become part and parcel of political life in Thailand.

[isanbirder]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

Edited July 21, 2011 by isanbirder

[dhrobertson]

Not so long ago, I quizzed a newly qualified Thai lady barrister, married to a friend of mine, if she would ever consider taking a bribe.

Without hesitation, she replied "yes, if I thought it would help my family".

This really depressed me. If the younger generation of "well educated" Thais are just as corrupt as their elders there is no hope....

[dhrobertson]

All I can conclude is that no one in the country has realised that the costs to society of corruption ALWAYS outweigh the benefits. But then that would need someone to teach people this concept, and we have had a thousand threads about the state of the Thai education system, so there we have it. Pure and simple.

It's a bit hard for the teachers to teach that corruption is bad and why corruption is bad, when generally they are just as everyone else.

Says it all doesn't it.

The problem is that people in Thailand know that the government is as corrupt as them, so why on earth should they bother to pay their taxes? It is a vicious circle, and whilst it is nice to talk about subsidizing fuels and rice and healthcare, any government would be swimming in cash if they could simply get out of the economy what is mandated by law.

I would take taxes on SMEs and halve them but lock up anyone running an SME who didn't pay his tax. Close up the ludicrous loopholes that Thaksin drove AIS through and the such, change the 51/49 ownership rules to allow more medium size FDI in the country, and slowly weedle away at the informal economy in the country. One way, although it isn't popular would be to reform the VAT system in the way that China has done. Everyone wants a VAT receipt because the government runs a lottery on the receipts. Very very smart. For a 100 rmb VAT receipt, and individual can win up to 50k USD approx.

When was the last serious review of the tax law in this country? 20 years/30 years ago?????? This is what I was hoping that Korn would get around to doing, so that closing tax loopholes regularly would become part and parcel of political life in Thailand.

Great idea re-VAT receipts. What a rigmarole it is to get a VAT receipt!

Same with tollway receipts. I'll bet there's enough money trousered in that scam to buy a jet airliner!

[kumsamut]

Your choice - corrupt no development or corrupt with good progress.

Like in other countries not corrupt... maybe more but you just don't know about it.

[exbelg]

thailand is supposed to be a buddish country, only on paper, look at the morals (sex capital of the world), corruption, the countless murders written of as suicides...

but hey farangs, who gives a s**t anyway... are you suffering with your 60.000+ pensions per month + tenthousands of baht of intrest from the bank as most TV members here seem to be millionaires and not only in baht apparently

[alant]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

christian ethics are so just? let us look at the current scandal in the uk with the press or perhaps nixon and watergate a financial system that looked away whilst banks got round bad debt by selling it off...

corruption or cover up?

[hungryhippo]

Your choice - corrupt no development or corrupt with good progress.

Like in other countries not corrupt... maybe more but you just don't know about it.

Both are not mutually exclusive. You can have good progress and little corruption.

Would you really consider the last 8 years of corrupt governments progress?

[Awohalitsiktoli]

All I can conclude is that no one in the country has realised that the costs to society of corruption ALWAYS outweigh the benefits. But then that would need someone to teach people this concept, and we have had a thousand threads about the state of the Thai education system, so there we have it. Pure and simple.

It's a bit hard for the teachers to teach that corruption is bad and why corruption is bad, when generally they are just as everyone else.

One of the most corrupt Thais I know is an elementary teacher here. She is corrupt to the core, but goes around town smiling (with her villain smile) and thinking she is above the rest of the herd. She makes me want to vomit along with the others just like her. PMGThailand said he is "out of here when his contract expires." Well, so am I. Please no applause

[hammered]

Thailand in people accept reality shocker. Everyone is paying bribe money whether it is to get land papers done, police to not make you detour to the station etc, and at those levels while annoying seems less annoying than say having to go to the police station. And then the whole system has institutional corruption that has been a round for ages creating the throw money at it and it goes away attitude. And also makes it be very hard to be different and not be on the take. Im sure plenty of people are put in a position where to refuse would have consequences that to take doesnt. When things are institutionalized you have little option but to participate or leave (your job?). And then you have the little problem of when some person or body is asked to investigate corruption, they are probably corrupt too. Reality is not always nice and it harder to walk into the wind than blow with it. If a government were not corrupt, could they actually get anything done, assuming they could even attract an MP or any "donations"?

[SAffer]

Kind of says it all about Thailand doesn't it. That a political party with a fugitive ex leader wins a landslide. IMO this country is morally bankrupt.

Yet if you speak with the Thais they go to great lengths to explain how morally superior they are to other cultures.

It infuriates me.

[SAffer]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

christian ethics are so just? let us look at the current scandal in the uk with the press or perhaps nixon and watergate a financial system that looked away whilst banks got round bad debt by selling it off...

corruption or cover up?

Actually, you re-inforce the point, Watergate and the financial meltdown were not exactly condoned in the name of progress were they???

Who in the west was saying- 'Oh, I don't mind the corruption, as long as I too can benefit'?

Eurocentri/Christian ethics do appear to be tougher on corruption, as you so kindly pointed out contrary to your intention.

Well done: great argument.

[ginjag]

Yes people are very short sighted here. It a "what's in it for me" attitude that pervades this country and will keep it destined to always be a third world country.

They are not just short sighted they are downright greedy (majority). quote=as long as it benefits themselves= Ha Ha would you say that remark was a little selfish ???...........The age group in the poll I would question as it seems to suggest just the younger population, I personally think the older generation are the worst-by far. the youngsters just learn by habit that this is the way here,and the norm. This is rife from the farm to the runaway politicians.

[Thai at Heart]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

christian ethics are so just? let us look at the current scandal in the uk with the press or perhaps nixon and watergate a financial system that looked away whilst banks got round bad debt by selling it off...

corruption or cover up?

Actually, you re-inforce the point, Watergate and the financial meltdown were not exactly condoned in the name of progress were they???

Who in the west was saying- 'Oh, I don't mind the corruption, as long as I too can benefit'?

Eurocentri/Christian ethics do appear to be tougher on corruption, as you so kindly pointed out contrary to your intention.

Well done: great argument.

I don't think it is a religious argument, rather a balance of cost/benefit/consequence.

Whether one can argue that the punishment for corruption in Christian countries is down to christian moral ethics I am not sure. I think people realised simply that paying for favours is on the whole disadvantageous to the greater good, so it was deemed illegal.

It appears that in Thailand, there is little or no consequence for anyone carrying out a corrupt act. This would have a very strange effect on anyone's concept of the price of corruption. If the survey asked "Would you bribe a policeman if the potential punishment was a 100mn baht fine and 50 years in jail?", the answers would be completely different. Until there is a proveable consequence for corruption, nothing will change.

I would add, that the whole AIS shamozzle shows exactly the response from someone being proven of corruption, when their belief is that everyone else is at it. Utter chaos for the whole country for the last 6 years or so. The problem is that largely, they are all at it. Maybe the large corporations in the country aren't paying cash directly for favour (although they probably are), they have skewed the Thai political system in their own favour for many years. Just look at DTAC and True for the last 6 months. True expects to be taken care of, no if's no buts.

It is all relative however, and this does happen elsewhere in the world, but to see David Cameron squirming yesterday about whether or not he got involved in discussing BSKYB with News International shows the difference in how these issues are handled in different cultures. He might not have to resign, but is his political reputation not tarnished by appearing to be too closely connected to News Corp. In Thailand, the PM can own telecoms companies, or have his dad on the board of companies, or members of the privy council can sit on boards, and the media doesn't bother to try to tell the people that this is a little bit too close to home. To do so would be potentially to defame them, and then of course you go to jail with a monster fine. And tell me that that rule isn't there to essentially perpetuate corruption?

The west doesn't hold people to account because the society is Christian, but that over time, the cost of wrongdoing or corruption has been understood far more clearly for longer.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[Britannia]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

Where is the difference? You’re talking nonsense.

There is no difference between the percepts and the commandments, (except there is 5 more) but the 5 more or less worded different cover the 10

It’s been stated many times on the forum by different individuals, they are more animist rather than Buddhist, here in Thailand

But in all religions the majority is the case of the blind (teachers-Priest- Mullahs) etc leading the blind. Occasionally comes one of knowledge but not many.

Morality is taught by all religions, its just a case of who is teaching it

[SAffer]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

christian ethics are so just? let us look at the current scandal in the uk with the press or perhaps nixon and watergate a financial system that looked away whilst banks got round bad debt by selling it off...

corruption or cover up?

Actually, you re-inforce the point, Watergate and the financial meltdown were not exactly condoned in the name of progress were they???

Who in the west was saying- 'Oh, I don't mind the corruption, as long as I too can benefit'?

Eurocentri/Christian ethics do appear to be tougher on corruption, as you so kindly pointed out contrary to your intention.

Well done: great argument.

I don't think it is a religious argument, rather a balance of cost/benefit/consequence.

Whether one can argue that the punishment for corruption in Christian countries is down to christian moral ethics I am not sure. I think people realised simply that paying for favours is on the whole disadvantageous to the greater good, so it was deemed illegal.

It appears that in Thailand, there is little or no consequence for anyone carrying out a corrupt act. This would have a very strange effect on anyone's concept of the price of corruption. If the survey asked "Would you bribe a policeman if the potential punishment was a 100mn baht fine and 50 years in jail?", the answers would be completely different. Until there is a proveable consequence for corruption, nothing will change.

I would add, that the whole AIS shamozzle shows exactly the response from someone being proven of corruption, when their belief is that everyone else is at it. Utter chaos for the whole country for the last 6 years or so. The problem is that largely, they are all at it. Maybe the large corporations in the country aren't paying cash directly for favour (although they probably are), they have skewed the Thai political system in their own favour for many years. Just look at DTAC and True for the last 6 months. True expects to be taken care of, no if's no buts.

It is all relative however, and this does happen elsewhere in the world, but to see David Cameron squirming yesterday about whether or not he got involved in discussing BSKYB with News International shows the difference in how these issues are handled in different cultures. He might not have to resign, but is his political reputation not tarnished by appearing to be too closely connected to News Corp. In Thailand, the PM can own telecoms companies, or have his dad on the board of companies, or members of the privy council can sit on boards, and the media doesn't bother to try to tell the people that this is a little bit too close to home.

The west doesn't hold people to account because the society is Christian, but that over time, the cost of wrongdoing or corruption has been understood far more clearly for longer. To do so would be potentially to defame them, and then of course you go to jail with a monster fine. And tell me that that rule isn't there to essentially perpetuate corruption?

Agreed, but the original poster did say: '...Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system...'

Thus, while in the modern context Christian ethics seem less relevant it has given the west a basis upon which we have developed less corrupt systems.

In todays worl, the least corrupt countries are often also the least religious- i.e. Scandanavia and other European democracies, but the foundation of these ethical codes is built on Christian ethics.

In my limited understanding of other religions, I must say, I do not really find much allowence for corruption there either.

On a balance of things; I would say that you are correct. It is a cost benefit trade-off, not a religious superiority of the West or 'Christian' nations which results in a lower tolerance for corruption.

[dhrobertson]

The root of the problem is that Buddhism has not managed to inculcate an underlying morality; this, I think, is true of religions/philosophies in most Asian countries, China and Japan being the honourable exceptions.

The only real morality which Thais seem to follow is centred on the family unit, the family being extended to a greater or lesser extent depending on the individual, and in particular on his education. Any Thai who wishes to challenge this, please do; I'd love to learn different.

In the West, two thousand years of Christian ethics has given us an underlying moral system which still largely persists even though Christianity has declined. Most of the Ten Commandments is actually plain common sense (and in this thread I am deliberately excluding the religious precepts).

Where is the difference? You’re talking nonsense.

There is no difference between the percepts and the commandments, (except there is 5 more) but the 5 more or less worded different cover the 10

It’s been stated many times on the forum by different individuals, they are more animist rather than Buddhist, here in Thailand

But in all religions the majority is the case of the blind (teachers-Priest- Mullahs) etc leading the blind. Occasionally comes one of knowledge but not many.

Morality is taught by all religions, its just a case of who is teaching it

Not really.

I believe morality is taught to children at a much younger age.

This is achieved through traditional fairy stories, fables, parables and the like.

Many H.C. Andersen tales, Esop's fables and the like teach children the folly of wrong doing.

Parenting is also key.

I have no doubt that many of us raised in the West have an inherent sense of what is right and wrong, and that this has bugger all to do with religion.

By comparison, I note the completly lassaise faire stance that Thai parents take towards their offspring prior to sending them to an almost militarised education.

I would be interested know if Thai kids get to hear fairy tales or fables. Anyone know?

[Britannia]

Corruption in the west is as high as it is anywhere, it is just played at a different level, Offer a police officer $50 or 100 pounds GBP and you’re likely to get arrested and go to jail, But if you’re a big drug dealer and pass across 1m then they take it and your off the hook, (if they can)

Same in business in the West, at the top of the ladder it goes on at the bottom it does not, simply because the stakes are not high enough, could be called greed, Now there is a good religious teaching, never be corrupt unless the stakes are high enough. Who was it that said “A rich man can never enter the Kingdom of Heaven” I forget (facetious)

[Pib]

It's the Thai mindset from birth to death....2 out 3 Thai's can't be wrong. Always remember, This Is Thailand.