Disappearing Farang?

[kebabbaro]

Ran out of quote space, so I have to resort to angle brackets for quotations.

>quote name='Awohalitsiktoli' timestamp='1311462380' post='4578843'

>it is clear to me that the off season is getting longer each year and the high season seems shorter.

This is a typical assertion common to all Dying Pattaya threads such as the two I gave above.

But it isn't true, as Russians, Chinese, Thais, Arabs, and Indians have more than taken up any slack. Hence Walking Street remains crowded even beyond the old high season, better hotels are doing well (last year saw the opening of the Hilton), and Central, after countless laughable predictions it would become a dark tomb, has been doing extremely well and is a source of daily traffic jams, not to mention the weekends. Couldn't even find a seat in the Central food court the other day.

For Thais, at least a few hundred jobs have opened up in Pattaya over the last year.

The difference in our viewpoints is that, as an eco-statist, you selfishly wish to limit development and enjoy an elite, exclusive but uneconomic and inevitably more expensive access to the area, taking as model rich yuppie areas such as Taos, N.M. or a static controlled (much more exclusive) environment such as beautiful Pyongyang.

I and many others here LIKE the new development, like Central, Tukcom, the Hilton buffet, Walking Street, and the numerous new restaurants and bars. And we like it that many poor Thais who would have no jobs and possibly careers are now able to have them. (For you, I should note the many fat Thai girls who are now able to market themselves to the Arabs. ) Finally, it's nice that other ethnic groups can enjoy Pattaya as well. Love all those beautiful Russian women walking around now.

The traffic situation could be improved (think London or NY without subways) and possibly may be when a crisis point is reached. It's not yet a crisis, merely unpleasant--a tradeoff most of us are willing to live with. Along that line, I note that finding a parking place has become even a bigger problem than last year.

>Lots of places have closed.

But even more have opened (a point you of course choose to ignore), and those that have closed have been or are being renovated. The development around Soi Buakaow has been incredible. And there's north Pattaya on 2nd Rd. It's, you see, the dynamic nature of a free market. Many of our members, reared in more static nanny states, kept innocent of economics, can't grasp the principle of change. So, go live in Pyongyang.

First, consider the vast number of shops that opened in Central and Tukcom, and they're doing well despite predictions of DOOM. But you and Tejas (who finally got himself banned) and thaibeachlovers and others of the ilk ONLY consider beer bars as "real" businesses, and ONLY sole proprietorships (not grasping the idea of shareholders).

OK, the bars. For example, as Nightmarch notes, Sexy Go-Go is being renovated, Tiger Go-Go just opened on Walking Street, Sugar Sugar Go-Go just opened on Soi Buakaow, the Moon Club Go-Go just opened on Walking Street, Easy Go-Go will soon open on Walking Street, and the Natali Disco just opened on 2nd Rd. X-Zyte is being renovated. The fact is that business is so good in Pattaya that there is plenty of money around to invest in new go-gos and renovations.

The U-too Bar and its neighbors has been demolished!!! This is all you've noticed. BUT a new "entertainment complex" is being built to replace it. This has happened in the last year at several locations around Pattaya.

Meanwhile, McDonalds just opened up a kiosk on Walking Street. The Made In Thailand market is getting a facelift. A new high-rise condo just broke ground at Wong Amart. A Russian channel advertises condos non-stop on Pattaya cable.

Finally, talk is of a high-speed train link to Pattaya. The airport highway just opened last year.

All the above completely refutes your oft-repeated assertion. And this is just a tiresome repeat of points made in last year's Dying Pattaya thread.

Here is what a dying city looks like: http://www.time.com/...1882089,00.html

Think about it next time you're stuck in traffic on Beach Road owing to all the Dying Pattaya economic activity.

>Yes, many farangs have left for better places (ten year trend).

But many more have arrived, you see.

>The place is losing much of its former sanook factor.

No. I and many others can attest that there's an overflowing abundance of sanook here. More than ever, in fact: see the list of NEW go-gos above. Some of the newest bars, like Airport, right on Walking Street are even more sanook than the bars of old (by one definition of sanook). In many go-gos, beer is a lot cheaper than it used to be owing to draft beer and happy hours.

In general Walking Street is better than it was 10 years ago. So nice to walk on it now w/o dodging crazy 'roid heads posing on their rented Honda Steeds.

>No, I do not see a shift to an "upscale" type of place.

Trouble is, we're just talking to a blind man here. What's happened is that Pattaya has evolved to accommodate more upscale tourists and other ethnic groups even as it has expanded facilities (new go-gos, Soi Buakaow, new cheap restaurants) for the old traditional mongers.

BTW, I have nothing to do with real estate.

Next.

+1

to even think or imagine that Pattaya is going downhill is just plain dumb for the exact opposite is happening

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Ran out of quote space, so I have to resort to angle brackets for quotations.

>quote name='Awohalitsiktoli' timestamp='1311462380' post='4578843'

>it is clear to me that the off season is getting longer each year and the high season seems shorter.

This is a typical assertion common to all Dying Pattaya threads such as the two I gave above.

But it isn't true, as Russians, Chinese, Thais, Arabs, and Indians have more than taken up any slack. Hence Walking Street remains crowded even beyond the old high season, better hotels are doing well (last year saw the opening of the Hilton), and Central, after countless laughable predictions it would become a dark tomb, has been doing extremely well and is a source of daily traffic jams, not to mention the weekends. Couldn't even find a seat in the Central food court the other day.

For Thais, at least a few hundred jobs have opened up in Pattaya over the last year.

The difference in our viewpoints is that, as an eco-statist, you selfishly wish to limit development and enjoy an elite, exclusive but uneconomic and inevitably more expensive access to the area, taking as model rich yuppie areas such as Taos, N.M. or a static controlled (much more exclusive) environment such as beautiful Pyongyang.

I and many others here LIKE the new development, like Central, Tukcom, the Hilton buffet, Walking Street, and the numerous new restaurants and bars. And we like it that many poor Thais who would have no jobs and possibly careers are now able to have them. (For you, I should note the many fat Thai girls who are now able to market themselves to the Arabs. ) Finally, it's nice that other ethnic groups can enjoy Pattaya as well. Love all those beautiful Russian women walking around now.

The traffic situation could be improved (think London or NY without subways) and possibly may be when a crisis point is reached. It's not yet a crisis, merely unpleasant--a tradeoff most of us are willing to live with. Along that line, I note that finding a parking place has become even a bigger problem than last year.

>Lots of places have closed.

But even more have opened (a point you of course choose to ignore), and those that have closed have been or are being renovated. The development around Soi Buakaow has been incredible. And there's north Pattaya on 2nd Rd. It's, you see, the dynamic nature of a free market. Many of our members, reared in more static nanny states, kept innocent of economics, can't grasp the principle of change. So, go live in Pyongyang.

First, consider the vast number of shops that opened in Central and Tukcom, and they're doing well despite predictions of DOOM. But you and Tejas (who finally got himself banned) and thaibeachlovers and others of the ilk ONLY consider beer bars as "real" businesses, and ONLY sole proprietorships (not grasping the idea of shareholders).

OK, the bars. For example, as Nightmarch notes, Sexy Go-Go is being renovated, Tiger Go-Go just opened on Walking Street, Sugar Sugar Go-Go just opened on Soi Buakaow, the Moon Club Go-Go just opened on Walking Street, Easy Go-Go will soon open on Walking Street, and the Natali Disco just opened on 2nd Rd. X-Zyte is being renovated. The fact is that business is so good in Pattaya that there is plenty of money around to invest in new go-gos and renovations.

The U-too Bar and its neighbors has been demolished!!! This is all you've noticed. BUT a new "entertainment complex" is being built to replace it. This has happened in the last year at several locations around Pattaya.

Meanwhile, McDonalds just opened up a kiosk on Walking Street. The Made In Thailand market is getting a facelift. A new high-rise condo just broke ground at Wong Amart. A Russian channel advertises condos non-stop on Pattaya cable.

Finally, talk is of a high-speed train link to Pattaya. The airport highway just opened last year.

All the above completely refutes your oft-repeated assertion. And this is just a tiresome repeat of points made in last year's Dying Pattaya thread.

Here is what a dying city looks like: http://www.time.com/...1882089,00.html

Think about it next time you're stuck in traffic on Beach Road owing to all the Dying Pattaya economic activity.

>Yes, many farangs have left for better places (ten year trend).

But many more have arrived, you see.

>The place is losing much of its former sanook factor.

No. I and many others can attest that there's an overflowing abundance of sanook here. More than ever, in fact: see the list of NEW go-gos above. Some of the newest bars, like Airport, right on Walking Street are even more sanook than the bars of old (by one definition of sanook). In many go-gos, beer is a lot cheaper than it used to be owing to draft beer and happy hours.

In general Walking Street is better than it was 10 years ago. So nice to walk on it now w/o dodging crazy 'roid heads posing on their rented Honda Steeds.

>No, I do not see a shift to an "upscale" type of place.

Trouble is, we're just talking to a blind man here. What's happened is that Pattaya has evolved to accommodate more upscale tourists and other ethnic groups even as it has expanded facilities (new go-gos, Soi Buakaow, new cheap restaurants) for the old traditional mongers.

BTW, I have nothing to do with real estate.

Next.

I need two emoticons to reply to nonsense: 1) "that was total disinformation" and 2) "that was totally boring." I think those two should be added to the list of emoticons.

[poanoi]

Don't get me started on the traffic jam.

If there is one thing, other than the visa hassle that can trip my trigger, it is the traffic. I'm hoping Pattaya will become less populated, soon.

[tropo]

seems ok to me, westrern economires in a very bad way, exchange rate poor ans other destinations offering better value for the money. have not noticed to many bars closing, they are usually reopened straight away.

must admit i have been ex pat for 10 years but like many others thinking of relocating else where in Asia where i feel my money would be better appreciated, and not have all the hassle of visa's and farang cannot do this and cannot do that. they killed the goose that laid the golden egg

NaRak,, being an expat here for 23++ years I can only say, your money is appreciated but you don't have any, that's the way I see you. And I'm going to be sick of all "farangs" like you who moan about .. killing the goose that laid the golden egg... grow up man and do your thing and don't complain, because first of all, this is Thailand meaning Thai peoples country and not yours, they make their own rules and not rules you are looking for, it's just ridiculous what 90% of you guys are complaining about instead making up their own life here...

LOL... Complaining about complainers...

[tropo]

Here is what a dying city looks like: http://www.time.com/...1882089,00.html

Think about it next time you're stuck in traffic on Beach Road owing to all the Dying Pattaya economic activity.

Those photos of Detroit showing dilapidated schools and other buildings doesn't really mean much. You could probably put together a slide show of about a dozen dilapidated buildings in most cities. You'd be surprised how many dilapidated buildings exist in Pattaya.

[TheWalkingMan]

Above somewhere it mentions new go-go bars being built. That is one indicator I would not rely on when judging how busy Pattaya is. These places come and go like the moon and just because it has been built, does not mean people will come. A better judge would be the number of go-go bars full as opposed to 3 or 4 being full.

TheWalkingMan

[marinediscoking]

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time. This coming from hotel, bar, restaurant and gold shop owners that i know. They all complain that the euro's and americans are what drive the town. The russians, indians, arab's, chineese and thai's don't spend the money like the others do. I don't see the bars closing anymore than normal for here.

I heard an thai economist on tv the other day claim the thai unemployment rate is currently 1% due to exports, so it seems the tourist economy seems to really be suffering but there is no lack of factory work to be had.

[vpi78]

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time. This coming from hotel, bar, restaurant and gold shop owners that i know. They all complain that the euro's and americans are what drive the town. The russians, indians, arab's, chineese and thai's don't spend the money like the others do. I don't see the bars closing anymore than normal for here.

I heard an thai economist on tv the other day claim the thai unemployment rate is currently 1% due to exports, so it seems the tourist economy seems to really be suffering but there is no lack of factory work to be had.

Tourism has never been higher. Yes, thee is a different mix of nationalities.

It's also wrong to generalize that Chinese, Russians, and Indians do not spend while on holiday. The Chinese are world renown for mainly shopping on holidays. They tend to travel on package deals ... for now ... but that too will change over time. You must either have very few contacts or those contacts are just not savvy enough to get a piece of the new tourist baht.

[blubberboybob]

The Indians spend big on renting jetskis.......after they have been fleeced there is little left for anything else.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time. This coming from hotel, bar, restaurant and gold shop owners that i know. They all complain that the euro's and americans are what drive the town. The russians, indians, arab's, chineese and thai's don't spend the money like the others do. I don't see the bars closing anymore than normal for here.

I heard an thai economist on tv the other day claim the thai unemployment rate is currently 1% due to exports, so it seems the tourist economy seems to really be suffering but there is no lack of factory work to be had.

Because the official govt. statistics on unemployment and tourism are totally worthless (grossly inflated) the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did. Clearly, business is down and has been down (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also down. By the way, the unemployment rate in Thailand is probably four times the official figure or even greater. It is not unusual for govts. to use deliberately misleading statistics to measure unemployment. In the USA, for example, the actual unemployment rate is likely close to 20% if you figure in all of the people who are not employed full time and/or who are no longer looking for work (and therefore counted). Underemployment would put that figure even higher. In Thailand underemployment (employment in relationship to qualifications) is sky high. This is not a good economy no matter what the Houdini statistical experts say who work for the govt.

[vpi78]

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time. This coming from hotel, bar, restaurant and gold shop owners that i know. They all complain that the euro's and americans are what drive the town. The russians, indians, arab's, chineese and thai's don't spend the money like the others do. I don't see the bars closing anymore than normal for here.

I heard an thai economist on tv the other day claim the thai unemployment rate is currently 1% due to exports, so it seems the tourist economy seems to really be suffering but there is no lack of factory work to be had.

Because the official govt. statistics on unemployment and tourism are totally worthless (grossly inflated) the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did. Clearly, business is down and has been down (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also down. By the way, the unemployment rate in Thailand is probably four times the official figure or even greater. It is not unusual for govts. to use deliberately misleading statistics to measure unemployment. In the USA, for example, the actual unemployment rate is likely close to 20% if you figure in all of the people who are not employed full time and/or who are no longer looking for work (and therefore counted). Underemployment would put that figure even higher. In Thailand underemployment (employment in relationship to qualifications) is sky high. This is not a good economy no matter what the Houdini statistical experts say who work for the govt.

Sure, you are more credible than that inconvenient official government data ... right. Talk to a handful of shop owners, right that is a good statistical sampling.

The Thai economy is growing between 4 - 5% per year. Other than India and China, that is one of the highest rates in the world these days. Tourism from India and China to Thailand is booming. But then it would do no good to cite any further figures because you know better, possibly from talking to a few local tourists.

[LennyW]

Wheather it is tourists, locals or expats it does not really matter, Pattaya has never been so busy at this time of year - just look at the traffic!!!!!! :annoyed: From someone who has to drive in it every day, i think it gets worse by the day NOT week or month!!!!! Why o why is it so busy at this time of year???????

[Jebhead]

Wheather it is tourists, locals or expats it does not really matter, Pattaya has never been so busy at this time of year - just look at the traffic!!!!!! :annoyed: From someone who has to drive in it every day, i think it gets worse by the day NOT week or month!!!!! Why o why is it so busy at this time of year???????

The traffic is so bad coz there's road works everywhere!!

JH

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time. This coming from hotel, bar, restaurant and gold shop owners that i know. They all complain that the euro's and americans are what drive the town. The russians, indians, arab's, chineese and thai's don't spend the money like the others do. I don't see the bars closing anymore than normal for here.

I heard an thai economist on tv the other day claim the thai unemployment rate is currently 1% due to exports, so it seems the tourist economy seems to really be suffering but there is no lack of factory work to be had.

Because the official govt. statistics on unemployment and tourism are totally worthless (grossly inflated) the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did. Clearly, business is down and has been down (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also down. By the way, the unemployment rate in Thailand is probably four times the official figure or even greater. It is not unusual for govts. to use deliberately misleading statistics to measure unemployment. In the USA, for example, the actual unemployment rate is likely close to 20% if you figure in all of the people who are not employed full time and/or who are no longer looking for work (and therefore counted). Underemployment would put that figure even higher. In Thailand underemployment (employment in relationship to qualifications) is sky high. This is not a good economy no matter what the Houdini statistical experts say who work for the govt.

Sure, you are more credible than that inconvenient official government data ... right. Talk to a handful of shop owners, right that is a good statistical sampling.

The Thai economy is growing between 4 - 5% per year. Other than India and China, that is one of the highest rates in the world these days. Tourism from India and China to Thailand is booming. But then it would do no good to cite any further figures because you know better, possibly from talking to a few local tourists.

People like you will believe anything that is stamped "official." Obviously you are unaware of statistics and sampling techniques. Let me give you one clue: proxy measures. I could not care less about what is happening NOW because economic statistics are basically worthless unless you look at them over 5-10 year periods. Even then, if they are constructed in a biased way, they are still worthless. Many of us can separate official BS from reality. Believe what they want you to believe. Baaaaaaaaaaaa.......baaaaaaaaaaa..........baaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[vpi78]

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time. This coming from hotel, bar, restaurant and gold shop owners that i know. They all complain that the euro's and americans are what drive the town. The russians, indians, arab's, chineese and thai's don't spend the money like the others do. I don't see the bars closing anymore than normal for here.

I heard an thai economist on tv the other day claim the thai unemployment rate is currently 1% due to exports, so it seems the tourist economy seems to really be suffering but there is no lack of factory work to be had.

Because the official govt. statistics on unemployment and tourism are totally worthless (grossly inflated) the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did. Clearly, business is down and has been down (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also down. By the way, the unemployment rate in Thailand is probably four times the official figure or even greater. It is not unusual for govts. to use deliberately misleading statistics to measure unemployment. In the USA, for example, the actual unemployment rate is likely close to 20% if you figure in all of the people who are not employed full time and/or who are no longer looking for work (and therefore counted). Underemployment would put that figure even higher. In Thailand underemployment (employment in relationship to qualifications) is sky high. This is not a good economy no matter what the Houdini statistical experts say who work for the govt.

Sure, you are more credible than that inconvenient official government data ... right. Talk to a handful of shop owners, right that is a good statistical sampling.

The Thai economy is growing between 4 - 5% per year. Other than India and China, that is one of the highest rates in the world these days. Tourism from India and China to Thailand is booming. But then it would do no good to cite any further figures because you know better, possibly from talking to a few local tourists.

People like you will believe anything that is stamped "official." Obviously you are unaware of statistics and sampling techniques. Let me give you one clue: proxy measures. I could not care less about what is happening NOW because economic statistics are basically worthless unless you look at them over 5-10 year periods. Even then, if they are constructed in a biased way, they are still worthless. Many of us can separate official BS from reality. Believe what they want you to believe. Baaaaaaaaaaaa.......baaaaaaaaaaa..........baaaaaaaaaaaaa.

What are you some leftover burnout from the Yippies days? You don't know squat about statistics other than what you get from Mr. Google. It's a tossup who is more ridiculous; i.e., you and your 5 - 10 year period view on economics or those wanke_rs that claim they are in Thailand hedging currency where trades are made in great volumes by entities like Deutschebank in milliseconds.

Yes, for certain, the official statistics are more believable than you.

[tropo]

Because the official govt. statistics on unemployment and tourism are totally worthless (grossly inflated) the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did.

LOL. The best method of assessing the economy - walk around Pattaya and talk to some shop owners.

[vpi78]

Real simple boys.(no pun intended) They are building hotels and filling them with package tourists. The plan aint to improve Pattaya. Rather, it is to suck the money up into the pockets of big business.Pattaya is an ugly city, and with all the over building, and lack of improvements on the water and power systems it is only going to get worse.

Yes, there seems to be negligible public planning and the infrastructure is way behind, such is the allure of easy/quick money.

The money that Pats should be generating goes to support families in Issan - whose inhabitants are faced with systemic racism that prevents them from getting jobs other that menial work.

Easy to say, but very unlikely and impossible to prove in any event. Sounds more like a sound bite from a bar owner.

The guys who claim that all this change is good are, based on their frequent posts, either living away from town, are involved in real estate,do not like the traditional pats lifestyle,or have a racist attitude towards Farangs, and they feel that judgment day has arrived.

Maybe, it is certainly a view held by many on this forum but racist against farangs? Most of those that post on this forum are farangs and a lot of them have never even been to Thailand.

[PattayaParent]

I was corrected when I referred to Arabs as " farangs ". I was told that Arabs, Chinese, Indians etc. we called " kaeks ". Yes, fewer farangs around Pattaya at present however do not agree that this is a bad thing.

Chinese are called 'jin'

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Because the official govt. statistics on unemployment and tourism are totally worthless (grossly inflated) the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did.

LOL. The best method of assessing the economy - walk around Pattaya and talk to some shop owners.

When the hard data is not available or false (deliberately misleading), you must resort to a proxy measure. So, what is the best proxy measure? Right, you understand: talk to shop owners--enough to create a statistically valid sample. This is not brain surgery, although a lobotomy might actually help some of you think.

[tropo]

. This is not brain surgery, although a lobotomy might actually help some of you think.

Really?... going by your posts I thought you'd already had one.

Go ahead, walk around Pattaya and talk to shop owners. Come back with a full report of the type of businesses you visited and their past 5 - 10 years of trading figures.

[JSixpack]

@hyku1147

Pattaya is an ugly city, and with all the over building, and lack of improvements on the water and power systems it is only going to get worse.

This is merely the old knee-jerk Spiraling Downward fallacy that's always part of any Dying Pattaya thread.

Well, it's utter nonsense to say the infrastructure hasn't improved. Here's a list for the blind: the roads are greatly improved (resurfacing; widening and resurfacing of Soi 16 Naklua), new roads have been built (3rd Rd. an outstanding example; the new road from the airport; lots of roadwork, water, and power on the Darkside), cables have been buried (three times or so), new lights are up on Beach Rd., stop lights are much better (w/ timers), new pedestrian lights and crosswalks, the Beach Road walkway, new power cables leading to Central Festival (partly paid by Central), Wong Amart walkway. Water shortages are nearly as bad recently as they have been, nor have power outages. Internet service has VASTLY improved in the last 10 years as has cellphone service--which of course required gov't help and sponsorship.

Having lost that point, you'll fall back on the maintenance issue. True, maintenance leaves much to be desired. That has always been the case and constitutes no evidence to support the much-beloved Dying Pattaya religion. It's a Third World country; it's Thailand. Thais don't maintain their own personal stuff either.

At no time could you ever walk unobstructed and freely on any Pattaya sidewalk.

@Awohalitsiktoli

the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did. Clearly, business is down and has been down (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also down.

No. Business is up and has been up (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also up. See evidence above; you've given no evidence of your own at all, just a lot of the usual hot air. You might read over the thread "Why Is Everything Opening Up?" where all of your assertions have been made by others and refuted:

@marinediscoking

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time.

As tropo would say, LOL. Pattaya small business owners are notorious for poor-mouthing. You see, they say that every year. If it were true, they'd be LONG gone. Anyway, there are more businesses now (igore Awohalitsiktoli) dividing up the pie and many tourists are shifting towards Soi Buakaow.

Your "survey" is totally meaningless. In the meantime, take a look at the new businesses and renovations (referenced above). Why don't you survey Central food court vendors?

@TheWalkingMan

new go-go bars being built. That is one indicator I would not rely on when judging how busy Pattaya is. These places come and go like the moon and just because it has been built, does not mean people will come. A better judge would be the number of go-go bars full as opposed to 3 or 4 being full.

For purely research purposes, last night I visited the new go-gos on Soi Buakaow and Soi LK Metro. And I found them practically full. Frankly, I was rather surprised as it IS low season. They are doing quite well it seems. Check 'em out for yourself. Other bars around always had some customers, some, like Witherspoon's, were even crowded

So my point still stands.

@tropo

Those photos of Detroit showing dilapidated schools and other buildings doesn't really mean much. You could probably put together a slide show of about a dozen dilapidated buildings in most cities. You'd be surprised how many dilapidated buildings exist in Pattaya.

On the contrary, those photos underline quite well and appropriately the contrast of a vibrant growing city such as PTY with a truly dying city, Detroit, for our silly resident gloom-and-doom posters.

True, PTY has some dilapidated buildings, but they weren't once prominent, valuable, and magnificent. For Pattaya to be DYING, we'd need to see a dilapidated Pattaya Nua bus station (corresponding to the dilapidated but once magnificent Detroit train station), a dilapidated Tiffany Show building, and the ruins of Dusit Hotel and Central Festival. In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore; the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos; and similarly the old semi-circular building on Beach Rd--all of which couldn't possibly happen in Detroit, which has lost 25% of its residents in the last 10 years as opposed to the new residents coming to PTY that lead to a housing boom.

@Awohalitsiktoli

I need two emoticons to reply to nonsense: 1) "that was total disinformation" and 2) "that was totally boring." I think those two should be added to the list of emoticons.

Just more blowing smoke in the face of facts, pal. Everyone can see that. Now, Nightmarch noted all the new openings and renovations; I've seen them myself; and anyone can just go right over to, say, Soi Buakaow and see them. While you've known, oh, 5 farangs who've left PTY, Northpoint has sold out its foreign quota (~182 condos). There's much, much more: contrast the Darkside 10 years ago w/ today.

It seems you don't know what's going on in PTY at all. Are you never embarrassed? (Don't answer that.) But yes, it must be boring to be totally routed--I can only imagine.

[doggie888888]

Because the official govt. statistics on unemployment and tourism are totally worthless (grossly inflated) the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did.

LOL. The best method of assessing the economy - walk around Pattaya and talk to some shop owners.

When the hard data is not available or false (deliberately misleading), you must resort to a proxy measure. So, what is the best proxy measure? Right, you understand: talk to shop owners--enough to create a statistically valid sample. This is not brain surgery, although a lobotomy might actually help some of you think.

You are assuming that Pattaya business people are a bastion of integrity who will tell you honestly the state of their business and will have no desire whatsoever to mislead you.

[tropo]

@tropo

Those photos of Detroit showing dilapidated schools and other buildings doesn't really mean much. You could probably put together a slide show of about a dozen dilapidated buildings in most cities. You'd be surprised how many dilapidated buildings exist in Pattaya.

On the contrary, those photos underline quite well and appropriately the contrast of a vibrant growing city such as PTY with a truly dying city, Detroit, for our silly resident gloom-and-doom posters.

True, PTY has some dilapidated buildings, but they weren't once prominent, valuable, and magnificent. For Pattaya to be DYING, we'd need to see a dilapidated Pattaya Nua bus station (corresponding to the dilapidated but once magnificent Detroit train station), a dilapidated Tiffany Show building, and the ruins of Dusit Hotel and Central Festival. In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore; the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos; and similarly the old semi-circular building on Beach Rd--all of which couldn't possibly happen in Detroit, which has lost 25% of its residents in the last 10 years as opposed to the new residents coming to PTY that lead to a housing boom.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of the Pattaya is all doom 'n gloom mongers.

There's a plethora of activity in my area with 3 major constructions either started or about to start within 100 meters of my residence and a number of townhouses bought in my block in the past month.

I'll have to find a quieter area to live. Perhaps Awolovchevski may be able to point me in the direction of a quiet area where I won't be bothered by construction.

Sometimes I really wish it was as quiet here as the doomsayers think it is.

[janverbeem]

@tropo

Those photos of Detroit showing dilapidated schools and other buildings doesn't really mean much. You could probably put together a slide show of about a dozen dilapidated buildings in most cities. You'd be surprised how many dilapidated buildings exist in Pattaya.

On the contrary, those photos underline quite well and appropriately the contrast of a vibrant growing city such as PTY with a truly dying city, Detroit, for our silly resident gloom-and-doom posters.

True, PTY has some dilapidated buildings, but they weren't once prominent, valuable, and magnificent. For Pattaya to be DYING, we'd need to see a dilapidated Pattaya Nua bus station (corresponding to the dilapidated but once magnificent Detroit train station), a dilapidated Tiffany Show building, and the ruins of Dusit Hotel and Central Festival. In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore; the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos; and similarly the old semi-circular building on Beach Rd--all of which couldn't possibly happen in Detroit, which has lost 25% of its residents in the last 10 years as opposed to the new residents coming to PTY that lead to a housing boom.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of the Pattaya is all doom 'n gloom mongers.

There's a plethora of activity in my area with 3 major constructions either started or about to start within 100 meters of my residence and a number of townhouses bought in my block in the past month.

I'll have to find a quieter area to live. Perhaps Awolovchevski may be able to point me in the direction of a quiet area where I won't be bothered by construction.

Sometimes I really wish it was as quiet here as the doomsayers think it is.

I remember pre-1997 it was also very busy in the building construction all over Thailand.In Pattaya and Bangkok they were building loads and loads of shophouses,condo's,villages and wathever you can name.....................many of them are yet still not finished though.

[kbelyeu]

>I've been coming here since 2006 and in the last 2 years this place has gone straight downhill.

Sigh. Well, it's time for the annual "Dying Pattaya" thread that rolls around in the low season as inevitably as the annual "Hate Songkran" thread in March.

Every low season is the worst ever seen.

Here's last year's, where it was discussed extensively with the usual arguments; nothing can be said now that wasn't already said:

http://www.thaivisa...._1#entry3652358

And an antidote thread, rightly pointing out that Pattaya is still growing and doing quite well, was started here:

http://www.thaivisa....__fromsearch__1

The highlight of the thread was of course one of my posts replying to a typical anti-progress, anti-globalist, utopian post by Tejas:

http://www.thaivisa....20#entry3680020

Enjoy. I don't see any need for this thread as it is totally redundant.

The sky is falling the sky is falling.. LOL

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Because the official govt. statistics on unemployment and tourism are totally worthless (grossly inflated) the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did.

LOL. The best method of assessing the economy - walk around Pattaya and talk to some shop owners.

When the hard data is not available or false (deliberately misleading), you must resort to a proxy measure. So, what is the best proxy measure? Right, you understand: talk to shop owners--enough to create a statistically valid sample. This is not brain surgery, although a lobotomy might actually help some of you think.

You are assuming that Pattaya business people are a bastion of integrity who will tell you honestly the state of their business and will have no desire whatsoever to mislead you.

No, actually, that is not what is assumed. And if the sample is large enough, that problems works itself out. But, you are assuming the government is a "bastion of integrity" and that they "have no desire to mislead you." Which assumption is better? The only word that comes to my mind when I think of the govt. is corruption. There is no truth. Surely you understand this by now. And about construction as a proxy measure of a growing economy. Well, it seems very obvious that construction does create construction jobs (when something is actually being constructed). But there is a lot of construction going on to create concrete blocks that will end up mostly vacant. It is called a real estate boom. And it will be followed by a real estate bust. Actually the bust is already taking place in predictable steps. Lots of farangs have left. Some Russians and Indians and people from the Middle East have taken their place. The place does have a growing number of Thais which nobody seems to talk about. The growth model that was envisioned ten years ago did not work out as planned.

[londoedan]

Just take a baht bus ride up 2nd and down beach around 9:PM, and what do you see? Empty bars full of unhappy faces,package tourists walking around, and the money draining central Festival doing a brisk trade.

Wow - you don't make it sound very inviting !

Are the unhappy faces on the bar staff / customers / both ?

Simon

[thaibeachlovers]

For years now there have been far too many bars. When I first started visiting Pattaya mid 90s the numbers were about right, but after that there has been a big upsurge in numbers. Whether from wanting, as one farang said to me, to have one's own brothel, or sheer stupidity, they keep building them where it is obvious there is insufficient demand. All that happens is that instead of a few bars making a profit, a lot of bars make a loss. I doubt the number of farang barflies has increased over the years, but the number of bars certainly has. Simple mathematics, same # customers + more bars = less income.

I have watched many bars being built in completely inappropriate places, only to be virtually deserted, except for increasingly desperate BGs, and eventually be demolished, or in some cases still exist, but empty and derelict.

In the future, perhaps the best thing would be to build a bypass road for Buakhao, and move all the bars from Beach and Second to Buakhao, which could then become a walking street at night. That would allow all the upmarket *(&^%% to have their malls and expensive restaurants without having to look at a load of decrepit bars, while allowing the bar crowd to enjoy "their" environment.

[Tolley]

Most of the beer bars deserve to be empty.

Bad locations ,poor service,cheap furniture, chairs etc expensive drinks in many not all...lack of amenities or basic amentities,bad smells, ugly girls etc

Sorry I won't mourn the loss of these beer bars.

Decent ones will stay in business the rest can just disappear.

[thaibeachlovers]

@hyku1147

Pattaya is an ugly city, and with all the over building, and lack of improvements on the water and power systems it is only going to get worse.

This is merely the old knee-jerk Spiraling Downward fallacy that's always part of any Dying Pattaya thread.

Well, it's utter nonsense to say the infrastructure hasn't improved. Here's a list for the blind: the roads are greatly improved (resurfacing; widening and resurfacing of Soi 16 Naklua), new roads have been built (3rd Rd. an outstanding example; the new road from the airport; lots of roadwork, water, and power on the Darkside), cables have been buried (three times or so), new lights are up on Beach Rd., stop lights are much better (w/ timers), new pedestrian lights and crosswalks, the Beach Road walkway, new power cables leading to Central Festival (partly paid by Central), Wong Amart walkway. Water shortages are nearly as bad recently as they have been, nor have power outages. Internet service has VASTLY improved in the last 10 years as has cellphone service--which of course required gov't help and sponsorship.

Having lost that point, you'll fall back on the maintenance issue. True, maintenance leaves much to be desired. That has always been the case and constitutes no evidence to support the much-beloved Dying Pattaya religion. It's a Third World country; it's Thailand. Thais don't maintain their own personal stuff either.

At no time could you ever walk unobstructed and freely on any Pattaya sidewalk.

@Awohalitsiktoli

the only way to get an idea of what is happening on the ground is to talk to shop owners like you did. Clearly, business is down and has been down (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also down.

No. Business is up and has been up (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting. Tourism is also up. See evidence above; you've given no evidence of your own at all, just a lot of the usual hot air. You might read over the thread "Why Is Everything Opening Up?" where all of your assertions have been made by others and refuted: http://www.thaivisa....03__hl__opening

@marinediscoking

Several business owners are telling me their revenues are down about 15% compared to last year this time.

As tropo would say, LOL. Pattaya small business owners are notorious for poor-mouthing. You see, they say that every year. If it were true, they'd be LONG gone. Anyway, there are more businesses now (igore Awohalitsiktoli) dividing up the pie and many tourists are shifting towards Soi Buakaow.

Your "survey" is totally meaningless. In the meantime, take a look at the new businesses and renovations (referenced above). Why don't you survey Central food court vendors?

@TheWalkingMan

new go-go bars being built. That is one indicator I would not rely on when judging how busy Pattaya is. These places come and go like the moon and just because it has been built, does not mean people will come. A better judge would be the number of go-go bars full as opposed to 3 or 4 being full.

For purely research purposes, last night I visited the new go-gos on Soi Buakaow and Soi LK Metro. And I found them practically full. Frankly, I was rather surprised as it IS low season. They are doing quite well it seems. Check 'em out for yourself. Other bars around always had some customers, some, like Witherspoon's, were even crowded

So my point still stands.

@tropo

Those photos of Detroit showing dilapidated schools and other buildings doesn't really mean much. You could probably put together a slide show of about a dozen dilapidated buildings in most cities. You'd be surprised how many dilapidated buildings exist in Pattaya.

On the contrary, those photos underline quite well and appropriately the contrast of a vibrant growing city such as PTY with a truly dying city, Detroit, for our silly resident gloom-and-doom posters.

True, PTY has some dilapidated buildings, but they weren't once prominent, valuable, and magnificent. For Pattaya to be DYING, we'd need to see a dilapidated Pattaya Nua bus station (corresponding to the dilapidated but once magnificent Detroit train station), a dilapidated Tiffany Show building, and the ruins of Dusit Hotel and Central Festival. In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore; the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos; and similarly the old semi-circular building on Beach Rd--all of which couldn't possibly happen in Detroit, which has lost 25% of its residents in the last 10 years as opposed to the new residents coming to PTY that lead to a housing boom.

@Awohalitsiktoli

I need two emoticons to reply to nonsense: 1) "that was total disinformation" and 2) "that was totally boring." I think those two should be added to the list of emoticons.

Just more blowing smoke in the face of facts, pal. Everyone can see that. Now, Nightmarch noted all the new openings and renovations; I've seen them myself; and anyone can just go right over to, say, Soi Buakaow and see them. While you've known, oh, 5 farangs who've left PTY, Northpoint has sold out its foreign quota (~182 condos). There's much, much more: contrast the Darkside 10 years ago w/ today.

It seems you don't know what's going on in PTY at all. Are you never embarrassed? (Don't answer that.) But yes, it must be boring to be totally routed--I can only imagine.

Wow, you must have some real big rose coloured glasses

the roads are greatly improved (resurfacing; widening and resurfacing of Soi 16 Naklua)

One or two new/ improved does not indicate general improvement.

The one way system is rubbish, especially when it could easily be 2 way

new roads have been built (3rd Rd. an outstanding example

Rubbish- when they built that, it was lined with open land and would have been so easy to make 2 lane each way with angle parking. I said at the time it was a BIG mistake, as it has proven.

new lights are up on Beach Rd.

Maybe so, but they would have done better spending the money on an upgrade of the disgraceful derelict walkway

new pedestrian lights

That don't stop the traffic. What a waste of money, and they still haven't put lights on the entrances to Buakhao

the Beach Road walkway

That decepit, disgusting broken down pile of rubble-<deleted>

Internet service has VASTLY improved in the last 10 years .

I get excellent broadband in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere. Pattaya had better be as good.

At no time could you ever walk unobstructed and freely on any Pattaya sidewalk.

If they can't fix the pavements, they have no right to claim to be an upmarket tourist destination

No. Business is up and has been up (in relative and real terms) for ten years and counting

Maybe so, but why hasn't the infrastructure improved to reflect that. The public infrastructure hasn't improved since the last walkway upgrade

Tourism is also up

From people that don't spend a lot of money, so it's not going to the local shop/ bar owners.

many tourists are shifting towards Soi Buakaow

And what a disaster that street is. Too narrow for 2 way traffic and NO PAVEMENTS.

For purely research purposes, last night I visited the new go-gos on Soi Buakaow and Soi LK Metro. And I found them practically full

A few gogos does not make for a prosperous night life scene. Do you know how many bars and gogos there are- a lot, and few doing well

In PTY exactly the opposite has happened in the last 10 years: the prominent derelicts have been renovated spectacularly. For example, the pile of rusting girders that is now Northshore

But what's the occupancy rate? Most of them seem spectacularly unoccupied whenever I pass by

the derelict apt. building on Soi 15 running behind The Avenue is now condos

And the Avenue is a prime example of incompetence- badly designed, poorly built, stupid paving, no AC, usually with only about 50% occupancy

While you've known, oh, 5 farangs who've left PTY, Northpoint has sold out its foreign quota (~182 condos).

And how many of them are owned by "investors" as compared to occupants

There's much, much more: contrast the Darkside 10 years ago w/ today.

The darkside isn't relevant to tourist Pattaya.

It seems you don't know what's going on in PTY at all

Do you?

it must be boring to be totally routed--I can only imagine.

Who's been routed?: