Pronounciation - some Thai language questions

[~G~]

Can't diffrentiate between the following:

"lahn/rahn"

(Wash, Shop, million)

"son"

(teach, send)

"soon"

(high, zero)

?

[taxexile]

million......laan..h

shop.........raan..h

wash.........laang..h

teach.....sorn..r

send....song..l

high....soong..r

zero......soon..r

[BambinA]

Can't diffrentiate between the following:

"lahn/rahn"

Wash - láang 

Shop, - ráan

million- láan

"son"

teach -sŏn /sorn

send -sòng

"soon"

high,- sŏong

zero- sŏon

?

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[~G~]

Can't diffrentiate between the following:

"lahn/rahn"

Wash - láang 

Shop, - ráan

million- láan

"son"

teach -sŏn /sorn

send -sòng

"soon"

high,- sŏong

zero- sŏon

?

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Thanks Taxexile and BambinA. It's mostly the high tones I found impossible

[meadish_sweetball]

Judging from the transcription in your first post, do you also find it difficult to hear the difference between 'ng' vs. 'n'?

If your problem is hearing tones, the only cure as far as I am aware is drilling practice. Find a tape, or audio files such as those in Teach Yourself Thai by David Smythe, listen very carefully and repeat until you go blue in the face. Intersperse this with pestering the nearest Thai to try out the tones in isolation to see if it works.

Remember that tone pitch is relative to your own voice register, so it's not absolute pitch like singing, it is more about where the tone pitch is found in your own vocal range.

The second thing to notice about tones is that each tone, apart from the pitch level, also has a bit of a unique *pitch shape* to distinguish it from the other tones. Only the Mid and Low tone are drones (i.e. stay at (almost) exactly the same pitch throughout the syllable). The trick for the long high tone (as in 'ráan' and 'láan' is to strain your voice at the highest comfortable pitch in your voice register (dont go into falsetto ), and push it strainfully upwards a little bit.

The difference between the high tone and the rising tone is that the high tone starts at a relatively high place in your voice register and describes a *small* rise at the end, whereas the rising tone starts just under mid-pitch, dips a bit lower and then goes sharply upwards. Simply put, the effect of the rising tone on a syllable sounds like using an 'innocently surprised question intonation', if that makes any sense.

Hope that helps.

[~G~]

Well, it's probably about staying in the comfort zone of understanding most of what is said by the context and not bothering to get to a more accurate level of understanding. I guess that this way of learning - by just using the language rather by systematic practice can leave huge gaps.

And then, some words are more common than others. With two similar words, I'd usually use the tone of the most common one, for both...

What about those two -

Shop - ráan

million- láan

Arn't they pronounced in same way by most Thais?

[meadish_sweetball]

Yes, you are right - they are.

The syllable length and tone are the same, and said by a speaker who is not careful with 'r' and 'l', they will sound the same. 'Hypercorrection' makes some Thais come out with 'r' even for 'l' words when they are trying to speak clearly, and conversely, in sloppy speech, all 'r' become 'l'.

The only way you can distinguish here is by looking at the context - surrounding words and grammatical features (i.e. if the word is preceeded by a number, chances are great that millions are being discussed and not shops. It's not foolproof though - the person could be counting shops, since the classifier for 'ráan' is either 'ráan' itself, or 'hàeng').

Listening for a 'baad[L]' (baht), 'rian[R]' (US dollars), 'bpawn[M]' (pounds) or any other currency after the word will also help eliminate false positives. Along the same lines 'gkuay dtiaow', 'som dtam', 'aahaan' or 'dtaam sang' following the word means it's shops (restaurants) being discussed.

[mrbojangles]

Could i also ask a question, please.

I've got as far as learning the consonents and the vowels. I am now trying to put them together and pronounce the word, albeit i don't know what the word means, i think it is good practise. However, at the lesson this weekend, the teacher (a Thai) told us to try and pronounce a word. It ended in "Gor Gai" so i thought it ends with a "G" sound but she said you have to pronounce it like a "K"

She mentioned something about "Stop finals" but to be honest, none of us had the foggiest what she was talking about. She struggles abit trying to explain something to us in English and often just says something like "because it does".

Now, usually the penny finally drops with me and i understand but this one hasn't dropped yet. Could someone help me with what on earth she was going on about.

MrBoJ

[eric67]

Thai consonants can change their sound, depending if they come at the beginning of a syllable or at the end, i.e. initial sounds and final sounds.

Assuming you already know the initial sounds, I’ll elaborate a bit on the final sounds:

Final sounds are divided into stop finals and sonorant finals.

Stop finals are called like that, because they are unvoiced:

http://www.learningthai.com/finals_stop.html

Sonorant finals are voiced, i.e. your adam’s apple will vibrate when you pronounce them:

http://www.learningthai.com/finals_sonorant.html

The distinction between stop and sonorant finals is important, because it is one of the factors that determines the tone of the syllable.

Hope this helps a bit…….

[~G~]

Listening for a 'baad[L]' (baht), 'rian[R]' (US dollars), 'bpawn[M]' (pounds) or any other currency after the word will also help eliminate false positives.  

"rian"? US dollars? I've only encountered "Doh-lah".

[meadish_sweetball]

It actually means "coin/coins" or "currency", but when used with a number in spoken language, it means "dollar" by default. A bit more slangy than "dol-lah".

[Richard W]

Final sounds are divided into stop finals and sonorant finals.

Stop finals are called like that, because they are unvoiced:

http://www.learningthai.com/finals_stop.html

Sonorant finals are voiced, i.e. your adam’s apple will vibrate when you pronounce them:

http://www.learningthai.com/finals_sonorant.html

The distinction between stop and sonorant finals is important, because it is one of the factors that determines the tone of the syllable.

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The naming difference is largely because sonorant finals can be prolonged until you run out of breath, while stop finals cannot. Sonorants also have something in common with vowels - sometimes even functioning as vowels, as in words like Hrvat 'Croat', or as the second elements of diphthongs in Lithuanian.

A final 'z' would not be a sonorant.

Voicing is not significant in the stop finals - for example, Mary Haas thought the non-glottal stop finals were best represented as /b/, /d/ and /g/, even though Thai has no syllable initial /g/. Aspiration is also not significant in the stop finals.

[meadish_sweetball]

Final sounds are divided into stop finals and sonorant finals.

Stop finals are called like that, because they are unvoiced:

http://www.learningthai.com/finals_stop.html

Sonorant finals are voiced, i.e. your adam’s apple will vibrate when you pronounce them:

http://www.learningthai.com/finals_sonorant.html

The distinction between stop and sonorant finals is important, because it is one of the factors that determines the tone of the syllable.

The naming difference is largely because sonorant finals can be prolonged until you run out of breath, while stop finals cannot. Sonorants also have something in common with vowels - sometimes even functioning as vowels, as in words like Hrvat 'Croat', or as the second elements of diphthongs in Lithuanian.

A final 'z' would not be a sonorant.

Voicing is not significant in the stop finals - for example, Mary Haas thought the non-glottal stop finals were best represented as /b/, /d/ and /g/, even though Thai has no syllable initial /g/. Aspiration is also not significant in the stop finals.

I would go as far as saying the aspiration is indistinguishable in stop finals.

To produce the Thai finals properly, your articulator(s) should stop short before release. (In isolated syllables at any rate, there is a bit of a linking phenomenon in continuous speech - but I think it is better to focus on getting correct Thai pronunciation on the syllable level before starting to emulate rapid spoken Thai - because correct on the syllable level is how Thais clarify things to each other if the other party has misheard what they said.).

To illustrate this, neither 'b' nor 'p' are all that great to describe the syllable-final labial stop sound in Thai, because what happens is that your articulators (lips in this case) freeze where they would normally allow air to be released. Both 'b' and 'p' in final position in English have a release of air and relaxation of muscles at the end of the sound.

Same thing when it's 'g' or 'k' used... Sound a hard "g" (NOT 'jee' like the letter, but just the very first sound in 'get', i.e. stop before saying '-et'. Note where your tongue is and what else is happening inside your mouth. Try to pronounce the sound slowly.

Now try to say a word that ends in 'g', such as 'rag'. You will notice that the final 'g' is released (you relax your tongue and open your nasal cavity). In Thai syllable final stops, your tongue should stay put where it is before the release.

Another example: บาด - bàad or bàat - at the end of the word, your tongue should touch your alveolar ridge (the ridge behind your upper front teeth) where you would produce a 'd' or a 't', but the trick to make the final sound come out as really Thai is that the tongue should stay glued to the alveolar ridge.

Hope that helps Mr. Bo. If something is still unclear, pls let me know.

[stateman]

Listening for a 'baad[L]' (baht), 'rian[R]' (US dollars), 'bpawn[M]' (pounds) or any other currency after the word will also help eliminate false positives. 

"rian"? US dollars? I've only encountered "Doh-lah".

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‘Rian’ is very much used to mean dollar. As meadish_sweetball mentioned, it means coin. Think of the days people used a dollar coin as a dollar. It used to be called ‘rian dollar’ then ‘rian’ or ‘dollar’.

Dollar was an unfamiliar term for the Thai tongue. Using ‘rian’ to mean dollar was more natural to say, because it is a Thai word.

[~G~]

"soon"

high,- sŏong

zero- sŏon

Another "soon" - center. As in Thailand Cultural Center. How should this one be pronounced.

Another question is about the word "soot" - fresh. Is this the same word for "most" (as in "took soot" - cheapest)?

[orchidexpert]

Took Sood =ถูกสุด (halftone :reduce tone) =cheapest

Sod =สด (short tone)=fresh

Thai-English dictionary just a guide to learn thai words. Just 10-15 % you can follow it. As the same , if Thais want to communicate with farangs(english native speakers) should to copy or learn from them in person.

[Richard W]

"soon"

high,- sŏong

zero- sŏon

Another "soon" - center. As in Thailand Cultural Center. How should this one be pronounced.

It's the same as the 'zero' word.

Another question is about the word "soot" - fresh. Is this the same word for "most" (as in "took soot" - cheapest)?

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Different words, different vowels:

สด 'fresh' [L]sot

สุด 'extremity' [L]sut

[Groongthep]

'Rian" is used to refer to any dollar not just the US dollar. Recently while in Singapore, I noticed the Thai laborers use "rian" to refer to the Singapore dollar.

[skylar]

Took Sood =ถูกสุด (halftone :reduce tone) =cheapest

Sod =สด  (short tone)=fresh

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and if you always like ถูกสุด you stay โสด