Mob Rule Disguised As Democracy; Thai Opinion

[Xangsamhua]

If democracy “depends upon ‘a presumption of personal autonomy’, the belief that each adult individual “should be assumed to be the best judge of his or her own good or interests’” (J. L. Hill in The Political Centrist (2009), quoting Robert Dahl), then is democracy thus defined possible in contemporary Thailand?

It is said that Thai people, particularly those living in smaller villages and small towns – not in an anonymous and alienating large city like Bangkok – do not make decisions based on their own judgments alone, as autonomous individuals, but in light of the prevailing view of the family, village, and patron-client network. The lead is given as to how to vote, for example, by senior figures in the family and village and by locally significant patrons. One gets the impression that these leading figures tend to have coinciding interests.

I don’t know if Thailand goes as far as Cambodia where every second village has a large sign at the entrance declaring its allegiance to the Cambodian People’s Party, but I suspect it’s not very different. However, I don’t know. Possibly, all Thai villages are inhabited by autonomous and authentic individuals who make up their own minds and whose decisions are respected by everyone else. If so, don’t bother reading on.

If democracy really depends on the individual having a sense of his or her own autonomy and that this will be respected, I suspect Thailand does not meet this condition and, therefore, is only ready for a limited kind of democracy, one that will be discarded if powerful figures believe it’s not achieving acceptable goals. And if the conditions for stable democracy do not exist, i.e. there isn’t sufficient belief in personal autonomy, then should we be surprised or dismayed if it is subverted and discarded, whether by the army and the amartya or a radical “movement of workers and peasants”?

[scorecard]

So someone who is anti coup (as they are carried out in banana republics) automatically "has to be" pro Thaksin.

I am anti coup but i would say what separates me from the pro-Thaksin crowd is that i can knowledgeable that it was Thaksin himself who laid the conditions for the coup, and that had he not screwed about changing laws days before selling his business to foreigners, and done so dodging massive tax payments and benefiting from dodgy share dealings that stunk of insider-trading, then the likelihood is there would never have been a coup in the first place.

Hypothetical. If Thaksin had not done this or that, etc.

Nevertheless, what you are saying is tantamount to this: "If he had not hit me first I would have never shot him", lamely the aggressor said to the police. Puerile justifications to unspeakable acts.

Thaksin did crocked dealings. He should have been impeached, as Clinton was during his first administration. Thaksin should have been prosecuted, impeached and kicked out of office, however long it took. That is the road of Democracy.

The problem is that to this day (and more days to come in the future) Thaksin haters (and democrat lovers) will not admit that a coup is not what Democracy is all about.

Allende in Chile was deposed by a coup d'etat because he was deemed to be a leftist. Was that democratic when he had been elected by the people, in spite of the socialist policies that he enacted?

A coup is a coup is a coup. No matter if it happens in Thailand or Chile.

Any political side can come with the right rational to justify negation of democratic principles and impose the will of the army backed by a friendly elite, to setup a likewise government.

PTP won. Democrats, Abhisit and yellow shirts lost. That is a fact no matter how much it hurts you. Move on and stop dwelling in the past.

Here we go again. If you don't like thaksin you are therefore a democrat lover.

Here we go again, if it's not the same as US or wherever then it's wrong.

I accept that Thailand has a new government that will start work in the next few days, but I will never forget, or allow you to forget, the lack of democratic values by thaksin and the nasty manipulative tactics of he and his no conscience no morals cronies which have got them to this point.

You can say all you like about 'a coup should not have been allowed, etc', but like many I hate to imagine where this country would be today if the paymaster had not been stopped.

It's so easy to forget that he had already put a number of members of his family, most with no qualificiations or relevant experience, and no capability, into high and powerful positions, he had muzzled the media, he had destroyed the electoral commission, he had intimated the judiciary, he had committed massive human rights abused and waved flags about it, he had changed significant laws for his own massive personal benefit, and more.

Edited July 31, 2011 by scorecard

[DumFarang]

Here we go again. If you don't like thaksin you are therefore a democrat lover.

Here we go again, if it's not the same as US or wherever then it's wrong.

I accept that Thailand has a new government that will start work in the next few days, but I will never forget, or allow you to forget, the lack of democratic values by thaksin and the nasty manipulative tactics of he and his no conscience no morals cronies which have got them to this point.

You can say all you like about 'a coup should not have been allowed, etc', but like many I hate to imagine where this country would be today if the paymaster had not been stopped.

It's so easy to forget that he had already put a number of members of his family, most with no qualificiations or relevant experience, and no capability, into high and powerful positions, he had muzzled the media, he had destroyed the electoral commission, he had intimated the judiciary, he had committed massive human rights abused and waved flags about it, he had changed significant laws for his own massive personal benefit, and more.

These are excellent points that should never be forgotten. Some posters on here have said something to the effect of, "Well he's no Mugabe, Hitler, or Stalin etc....out of context etc...poor comparison etc." Well, as the above post makes abundantly clear he was doing a fine job of following in their footsteps but thankfully he was usurped, stripped of power, and forced into exile when only responsible for a few thousand deaths not thousands upon thousands. God help us if he had managed to stay in power, and thank God he never won, nor ever could win, the allegiance of the military. Every despot must have that.

So what's all the buzz now? This mad man has a second crack at righting all HIS wrongs (those would be the wrongs that caused him to lose power, not the moral and ethical ones) via little sister proxy. Here we go again, happy times.

Edited July 31, 2011 by DumFarang

[scorecard]

I think the tea party has arrived at Thaivisa, we will ignore the facts that are avaliable at many sources other than Thaivisa. I was In Thailand and watched on television as protestors where beaten and thrown into trucks to die on the way to army base. Who was PM and incharge Thaksin. Learn a bit about the man you seem to think got a raw deal.

well said!

[scorecard]

No matter how guilty and/or convincted Thaksin was of those imputed crimes, there was a process in place in the Constitution and the power of Parliament to remove him and call for snap election or have the Depute PM take care of government until the new and proper elections were carried out. The army stepped in. That coup d'etat erased any semblances of Democracy in Thailand.

I understand where you are coming from, but your comments assume that Thailand had a functioning system of governance at the time. It didn't. The government was dismantling the checks and balances designed to limit its powers. The coup was an ugly but arguably necessary reset switch.

You can't break the rules and expect other people to play fair. Fix the governance and the coups will go away.

Well said, and I like your analogy, spot on!

[scorecard]

1. Why does it return? Because whichever way you slice it Thaksin was prime minister because he had been elected to that role. That the pre coup election failed to produce a quorum, because the democrats, aware that they would lose it boycotted it, does not change that. The EC currently declared it void (quelle surprise). The Army deposed him in a coup, and despite Thaksins faction winning again they were manoeuvered out of power using the courts and an Army brokered political stitch up. Thaksin, at the time he was deposed, had a greater claim on the premiership, based on a mandate, than the generals who deposed him, and started this whole business.

2. Comments about newbies are a cheap shot, and are not a means of browbeating anyone who does not subscribe to your view. The fact that you have been here, either in Thailand or on this forum, for a relatively long time, does not give your views any particular legitamacy, however impressive your post count.

3 Thaksin was deposed by an illegal military coup, his partys subsequent political victory was neutralised by a stitch up. The Thai electorate believe that, and they have given their judgement.

ad.1. K. Thaksin was (barely) a caretaker PM whatever you may think. He became caretaker PM when he announced the new General Elections in Feb 2006, to be held in april 2006. Even with the elections held k. Thaksin was still caretaker PM only. Like caretaker PM Abhisit at this very moment. Had the elections not been voided k. Thaksin would have been endorsed as MP and most likely elected by the MP's as PM. As is was caretaker PM Thaksin passed authority to his deputy and went on holiday.

The election was voided whatever you personally may think of that. A new election was called immediately, but passed the legal limit. K. Thaksin didn't get (didn't ask?) royal endorsement so wasn't caretaker PM anymore.

As for starting this whole business, that was on the 23rd of January 2006 when a new Telecoms law came into effect and at the same day the Shinawatra clan sold their stake in Shinawatra holdings to Temasek without paying taxes. In 2000 or 2001 k. Thaksin had stated to be (amply) rich enough not to need to be corrupt.

ad.2. I have nothing against newbies, I was one myself a while ago. What annoys me, is seeing the same incorrect remarks coming back with a certain regularity. Mostly by newbies, that's the problem with re-incarnation, no past to remember, just new position.

ad.3. The coup was illegal, if understandable. The 'free pass' in the new constitution is equally understandable, and equally dubious. One of these days that part will be removed, but Thai society needs to evolve more before that can happen. The stitch up of two k. Thaksin proxy governments is well documented. Party executives caught on video bribing kamnan (I think) to bribe people. That's an offence in both old and new constitution. In the switch from the late PM Samak to PM Somchai to PM Abhisit, the outgoing PM had the legal option to call new general elections, they choose not to. Political haggling and voilà: PM Abhisit. Legally.

Some part of the electorate, the part red-shirt & UDD leaning and sufficiently indoctrinated with 'enlightening' speeches, have choosen for Pheu Thai. Fine, democracy, next week new parliament in session, another week a new PM. That's democracy, give it a try again.

The topic is 'Mob rule disguised as democracy'. To my opinion that means that all politically linked protest should move into the legal framework for controlled protests, controlled in the sense of planned with city officials, police, orderly, limited in time. The UDD with soon a number of leaders in parliament needs to rethink their position. A government party can't have a (loud) protest arm without loosing some legitimacy. The Dem's never had such a protest-arm. If PTP = UDD isn't true, Dems = PAD is certainly not true.

Plus thaksins relative caught falsifying voting records for the paymasters gain.

[scorecard]

Comments about 'newbies' often arise because they are often spectacularly ignorant of life, death and other abuses under Thaksin's government. If you are a recent arrival, subscribing to the anti-coup movement may seem cool, just and fashionable. But in 2006, rabid pro-Thaksin supporters were a distinct minority on this board, the atmosphere in Thailand was oppressive and the media were self-censoring out of fear. More than 3,000 people had been butchered in extra-judicial killings.

The overwhelming reaction to the coup was not despair, it was relief. But if you weren't here you probably don't know that. You probably have no clue what he was. And it's quite easy to believe the output of his successful 5-year propaganda and armed provocateur campaign. That's the whole point of propaganda: Influence the uninformed.

So yeah, when I see a foreigner espousing the 'evil of the coup' or who is living in some fantasy Thailand where order *and* law prevails, I tend to think you just got off the bus. Sorry if you find that offensive, but there aren't too many polite ways to tell people that they are ignorant.

Are you familiar with the Tak Bai massacre? That's a good point to start your education.

Agree, nicely said and accurate.

[OlafStapleton]

Comments about 'newbies' often arise because they are often spectacularly ignorant of life, death and other abuses under Thaksin's government. If you are a recent arrival, subscribing to the anti-coup movement may seem cool, just and fashionable. But in 2006, rabid pro-Thaksin supporters were a distinct minority on this board, the atmosphere in Thailand was oppressive and the media were self-censoring out of fear. More than 3,000 people had been butchered in extra-judicial killings.

The overwhelming reaction to the coup was not despair, it was relief. But if you weren't here you probably don't know that. You probably have no clue what he was. And it's quite easy to believe the output of his successful 5-year propaganda and armed provocateur campaign. That's the whole point of propaganda: Influence the uninformed.

So yeah, when I see a foreigner espousing the 'evil of the coup' or who is living in some fantasy Thailand where order *and* law prevails, I tend to think you just got off the bus. Sorry if you find that offensive, but there aren't too many polite ways to tell people that they are ignorant.

Are you familiar with the Tak Bai massacre? That's a good point to start your education.

Agree, nicely said and accurate.

Old men often dream of 'Empire' but it don't make it right.

[metisdead]

A post insinuating people of being brainwashed and the responses to that post have been removed.