Political Debate

[Pink Mist]

My only serious comment agree "there is there is no justification for 911"

agree 1000%

[Butterfly]

Snipped to practice

Stage 1 of the new rules is now operative.

Post snipped Butterfly consider this a stage 1 warning.

Edited January 4, 2004 by IT Manager

[Guest IT Manager]

lets get ready to rumble!

Yes so it would seem.

Doc and I wondered if we could go a day without it.

Stop it you three or I will spank you again. Policies and Issues not personal diatribes.

Otherwise forget it.

[Pink Mist]

Admin closed thread due to ?

Let it develop see who pops first

[Guest IT Manager]

FWIW Bronco, the thread will close when the decision is made about the topic being discussed.

Both Doc and I have our mouse buttons superglued, but we have the antidote.

Also for other members, the "whipping boy" tag has nothing to do with whipping others in fact.

I would be interrested to hear what people have read into it..

OUCH that hurts..

[Axel]

It seems to me you are unable to discuss normally.

Georgie Porgie, running out of arguments, puts his (.....) in. Meanwhile, absolutely correct:

Snipped..personal insult... welcome the new day

Membrane complaining, how upset he is without really replying to the issue, which, I believe is still GWB, who IMHO started the whole mess.

And why is it, that not one of you, who disagrees with Mr. Bush, has ever "called" Butterfly on remarks like this? Is it because you actually agree with such outrageous remarks like this? Or is it that (for whatever reason) you don't mind simply sitting quietly and idly by, not worrying about coming to the defense of an American?

I did comment as follows:

Posted on: Thu 2003-11-13, 18:03:46

Replies: 114

Views: 1,336 Butterfly, your posts are far over the top. Although I am

intersted in the subject itself, I just skip them.

What you bring here is ranting and hate. May be that's why somebody changed

your name to BITTERfly?

Worse, you make a discussion impossible!

In my feeling, one can bring pro and con - arguments. Well funded, and,

where possible without emotion. I know, there are people of different

opinion, I can discuss, but not the way you do it. I wastes my time and

usless to find a decent reply.

Meanwhile, I must say, agressive as he is, Butterfly at least is researching, bringing reference material etc. It might be controversial but at least seems to be from inside USA.

As for Kwiz, I believe he said he will be on New Year's holiday.

As for 911. NOBODY deserved this. Find somebody, who is able to hunt down the people responsible. GWB mis used the trust given to him and started instead a new war.

Who? Build up and support UN-forces. They have, or can get the people able to do it.

Or perhaps somebody delivers Bin Laden, after GWB is gone? Just an idea that came to my mind from years back in Teheran.

Now, get the f and i-words out ad discuss as adults and human beings.

[Guest IT Manager]

Thank you Axel, well put..

[Jeepz]

I think Americans do deserve another 911 so it will shutup their arrogant president and make them realize that they have been duped by the Chimp all this time. The "War on Terra" is a joke and it will fail like everything Bush had ever done.

Butterfly wishes a few thousand deaths in order to fulfill a political agenda. Sounds like Butterfly needs to apply to AQ for membership. If I posted such drivel I'd be ashamed to put my name or nick to it.

I do understand that many people have no use for President Bush. But what Butterfly says is without consciense. Zero sense of moral or ethical guidance. I am sorry that this is not IRC so that I could use an "/ignore butterfly" command and not be bothered with the sickness that is being spewed.

If that offends anyone here, so be it. I have no problem with people arguing the merits of the American Electorial system, with its flaws. Nor do I have a problem with arguements flowing around WMD or Big Oil or Family Vendettas as the possible causes for US intervention in foreign affairs. That they are tangental to Thailand at best may make us stop and wonder why they are explored here, but so be it.

And note, if I made, for some preposterous reason, a similar statement directed to almost any other country, I would be very black toast. If I made it toward Thailand, I'd be deleted, removed, and bent/folded/mutilated without notice. And deservedly so.

But Butterfly is allowed free reign (or rein) to evoke murder on innocents. Interesting set of rules here.

I guess a forum or section for political commentary would be the next best thing to an "/ignore" function. Then they can condone or condemn as each sees fit. And I can read and learn more about Thailand without getting in the middle of that nonsense, simply by keeping my mouse away from there.

Jeepz

[Khun ?]

We have all made so many mistakes in life we really should try fixing our own problems to be better people and not try to fix everyone elses (even if it is more fun).

Most of us are frustrated with reaching our personal goals and day to day life

that it is so easy to not be cordial at times. I am definetly guilty and please excuse my abuses. I owe many beers (drinks) when I make it to town.

Maybe I will treat myself to a near beer ( I have not had one of those things in 20 years). I wish everyone a good Sunday whatever they may be doing.

[the gentleman]

Very harsh butterfly - the majority of the worlds countries had people die in that tragedy - I personally think that was a super low blow!

[Guest IT Manager]

So can we deal with this structure people?

1 day

7 days

14 days

121 days

911 days

?

[Pink Mist]

Lower than a pigs belly

[Guest IT Manager]

Well here goes the political discussion again ...

I actually think this should be in another string, so I want to keep my reaction sort of brief.

The only thing that I have approved of in Bush's leadership is his going after Al Queda after 911.

Otherwise, I really can't think of one of his actions, foreign or domestic, that I approve of.

So from my point of view, any American who does not clearly see that Bush's leadership has been a disaster is pro Bush.

When I hear unreasonable America bashing, I don't feel any need to respond. We are still the world's largest economy with the world's strongest military, so we can take the criticism. To my mind, the American voters brought this on themselves by the mistake they made by electing Bush. I can only hope they fix this error.

Speaking of 911. There is no justification for 911 and it deserved to be avenged.

However, Bush and his neoconservative, neo-fascist cronies have cynically used 911 as an EXCUSE to start a war, repress domestic freedoms, ignore domestic social issues, and to try to bamboozle their way into a second term.

And by the way, the term neoconservative is descriptive and I don't agree that there is any connection to Jewish issues, just because some of the thinkers behind this ideology happen to be Jewish. Is communism Jewish because Marx was? Please.

In it entirety, HEAR HEAR m'lud.

[Pink Mist]

Both Doc and I have our mouse buttons superglued, but we have the antidote.

an antidote begins with the venom correct?

[Georgie-Porgie]

I just wanted to remind Axel that I have hardly run out arguments. My little -all purpose- answer to Butterfly was just to save wasting my breath. When he decides to use some sort of logic in his posts, I will be happy to reply in kind.

By the way, does this mean that you claim to see merit in his posts?

As to answering ######. I just got back in the office, but I have been pondering what he had to say. I will respond ASAP.

[Guest IT Manager]

See the thread bearpit for the rules under consideration and to comment.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4923

Edit:

Added clickable link

/George

Edited January 4, 2004 by george

[Butterfly]

Snipped to practice

Stage 1 of the new rules is now operative.

Post snipped Butterfly consider this a stage 1 warning.

I was just making an opinion. Are you also censuring contents now even if there are no related to personal insults ?

[Butterfly]

Very harsh butterfly - the majority of the worlds countries had people die in that tragedy - I personally think that was a super low blow!

I agree but reality is a lit of bit more than a big fairy tale for the masses.

The truth hurts because it's harsh

A lot of people died on 911

A lot of people die of cancer too (more than 911)

A lot of people die of car accidents, do we get rid of cars because of it ?

I think the only reasons Americans are so mad about 911 is because it was a "spectacular" act being broadcast live on the news while it happened. This for me was far more shocking and impressive than the rest. Without the broadcasting of the 911 events, most people wouldn't have care much about the terrorist act for more than a few months. I think this kind of humiliation is what brought the whole situation after 911. I can't blame US citizens to be mad and hurt about this because I would be too. However, they need to learn where 911 is coming from. This is the only way to move on.

unfortunately most of the victims are just being used by both sides. Is it good or bad ? I don't know. I think each side is to blame: AQ for killing innocents, and the US for stimulating terrorism using passive aggression techniques

[Nat]

Also for other members, the "whipping boy" tag has nothing to do with whipping others in fact.

I would be interrested to hear what people have read into it..

OUCH that hurts..

was worried you were following in the footsteps of the Marquis de Sade

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Based on this crap, the prognosis for a political discussion is terminal.

[Pink Mist]

Based on this crap, the prognosis for a political discussion is terminal.

Terminal does have another meaning now in an IT sense

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Comment sensibly Bronco. In this sense, there is ONE outcome

[dr_Pat_Pong]

and it is nearly midnight there

[Georgie-Porgie]

###### is obviously a real bright guy, but he didn't say much of consequence in this post. In fact, it is mostly just the same old bunch of left-wing myths. I think that in reality, he just wanted to take up for another member, because he felt bad that I complained about this fellow's English language skills. He was not really thinking very hard about a logical argument to defend the beliefs that he has kept hidden before this. He was really telling me that he was going to defend this other member by standing in for him, because he agrees with him, and that things would be more even because his English skills are, at least, as good as mine. Anyway, for what it is worth, see below.

IT Managers point's are numbered. My points are in bold:

1) ...particularly at the effects the actions of Mr. Bush were having on THE WORLD, a large round object in the sky, which contains about 6 billion folks, of whom Mr. Bush is President of about 240 million. Also the USA covers what, 8% of the worlds surface? Roughly?

No real point, other than the USA doesn't govern the whole planet Earth, which we were aware of already.

2) Mr. Bush decides on a picnic in a playground which was not his because he said it had something he didn't feel they should have. WMD. He knew they had them, because his friends had shown him the invoices for their sale.

The point here is that Bush knew that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction, because the US had sold them to Hussein when they were buddies. Sounds real clever, but meaningless, because there is no one (except nuts on the Internet) saying that the US sold Hussein weapons of this type.

3) If Mr. Bush had said "we are really sick of Mr. Hussein so we are going to send a lot of young chaps to kill him and his sons", he would have had quite a bit more support in my opinion. Certainly more than he eventually got. In fact what he did was use a bare faced lie to go in and try to kill Mr. Hussein.

Which bold faced lie? The one about Iraq having Weapons of Mass Destruction? But you just insinuated in your last point that the USA had sold them to Hussein. Also, it is documented that practically every intelligence service on Earth was convinced that Iraq held Weapons of Mass Destruction, so where does the "lying" part come in?

4)This is my opinion on the matter. Mr. Bush did a thing which his fathers friends saw was good. The Friends are now doing the thing they are noted for most: living off the interest accruing to the deed.

I am not so sure that Bush's father thought that invading Iraq was "good". After all, he had the chance to do it in the first Gulf War, after we had already taken care of Iraq's Army, and he stayed out. What is the excuse that all the "blood for oil" types give for that? Was Bush Senior just waiting for the price of oil to go up?

Anyway, if ###### decides to really participate in this debate, I'm sure we will have our hands full, but this must have been more like a pre-season game!

[Pink Mist]

Ah but a terminal has input Doc

[HaRoiHenry]

Forgive my intrusion on what appears to be a heated and intelligent discussion between long-standing members.

My experience of Forum debate is that digression from the original topic forms the largest part of all threads and, in their own way, can become more interesting and inspirational than sticking to the theme. Tangents form the meatiest part of any conversation and should be encouraged rather than prohibited. If this is purely an educational forum with one reply to be allowed for each question then I am in the wrong place.

Politics is an impossible issue to ignore on an international platform and I would suggest that those who would rather not have their personal views threatened by others might be better off examining their own postings first, to ensure that they are not as equally guilty of offence as those they wish to exclude.

Misquoting a line from the hilarious "Joan Crawfords ######" sketch by the lamentably lost to us Derek and Clive: "There are other threads in this Forum, sir.", "Come zis Vay.".

I, myself, believe that all of your opinions are crap. But I will defend to my death your right to air them. Because that right must belong to you before I can use it to tell you the truth.

On a lighter note, has anyone spotted the similarity between Sadam and Walter Matthau? Is this perhaps his greatest role to date? " All you gotta do, sir, is cut out the shaving for a few months, come out of the hole and use your "Grumpy old Man" expression. No lines, guaranteed."

Forgive my intrusion.

[Stevieboy]

I think I understand what Butterfly is trying to say

3 or maybe even 4 times as many people died the other day from that earthquake in Iran than died on 911 and yet it's already of the news, if it happened in LA or San Francisco we wouldn't hear the end of it!

[Guest IT Manager]

Forgive my intrusion on what appears to be a heated and intelligent discussion between long-standing members.

My experience of Forum debate is that digression from the original topic forms the largest part of all threads and, in their own way, can become more interesting and inspirational than sticking to the theme. Tangents form the meatiest part of any conversation and should be encouraged rather than prohibited. If this is purely an educational forum with one reply to be allowed for each question then I am in the wrong place.

Politics is an impossible issue to ignore on an international platform and I would suggest that those who would rather not have their personal views threatened by others might be better off examining their own postings first, to ensure that they are not as equally guilty of offence as those they wish to exclude.

Misquoting a line from the hilarious "Joan Crawfords ######" sketch by the lamentably lost to us Derek and Clive: "There are other threads in this Forum, sir.", "Come zis Vay.".

I, myself, believe that all of your opinions are crap. But I will defend to my death your right to air them. Because that right must belong to you before I can use it to tell you the truth.

On a lighter note, has anyone spotted the similarity between Sadam and Walter Matthau? Is this perhaps his greatest role to date? " All you gotta do, sir, is cut out the shaving for a few months, come out of the hole and use your "Grumpy old Man" expression. No lines, guaranteed."

Forgive my intrusion.

Thanks for the intrusion. Appreciated enormously.

[the gentleman]

Very harsh butterfly - the majority of the worlds countries had people die in that tragedy - I personally think that was a super low blow!

I agree but reality is a lit of bit more than a big fairy tale for the masses.

The truth hurts because it's harsh

A lot of people died on 911

A lot of people die of cancer too (more than 911)

A lot of people die of car accidents, do we get rid of cars because of it ?

I think the only reasons Americans are so mad about 911 is because it was a "spectacular" act being broadcast live on the news while it happened. This for me was far more shocking and impressive than the rest. Without the broadcasting of the 911 events, most people wouldn't have care much about the terrorist act for more than a few months. I think this kind of humiliation is what brought the whole situation after 911. I can't blame US citizens to be mad and hurt about this because I would be too. However, they need to learn where 911 is coming from. This is the only way to move on.

unfortunately most of the victims are just being used by both sides. Is it good or bad ? I don't know. I think each side is to blame: AQ for killing innocents, and the US for stimulating terrorism using passive aggression techniques

I agree with what more people died in accidents and cancer - the point is you quoted something like you would like another 911 - that was the low blow.

George Bush is one man! I definately cant stand him, but saying something like that wins you no support anywhere!

[Butterfly]

I agree with what more people died in accidents and cancer - the point is you quoted something like you would like another 911 - that was the low blow.

George Bush is one man! I definately cant stand him, but saying something like that wins you no support anywhere!

No I said the US deserve another 911 for what they are doing currently. I do not wish people to die just because they are US citizens. But if you support blindly your leader, then you should be prepared for the consequences and the responsabilities that such acts deserve. You want to make peace with the world, deal with this peacefully. You want to put the world upside down and stir up wars, conflicts etc... then you deserve every consequences of it. You reap what you sow.

I am not in a popularity contest here. I am NOT expecting support when I make such statements. Again these are only my opinions and I know they are pretty extreme.