isabelle17 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I agree! That was a very good post and it's nice to hear from another point of view! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
submaniac Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Hi Ladies, and thank you for the invites Donna, g00dgirl, Seonai, and RueFang--I definately will have to post here more often. I was just worried about a guy hanging out on the ladies turf. But frankly, this is probably the most interesting forum, with girls spilling the beans on their relationships and all. It's kind of like when you are sitting in a cafe having cofee and the girls at the next table are chatting about their boyfriends and relationships...you know you shouldn't listen it...but it's hard to resist.... Getting back to your question g00dgirl, "face" is a very complicated thing in Thai culture, and it is hard to summarize it in a single post (I could write a very long essay on it), but I will try and get to the more relevant points. In terms of girlx's situation, I really think that losing face is (one of the factors at least) motivating him not to let the relationship go. Imagine your wedding day, and your friends and family are at the chapel, and your husband to be dumps you at the alter. You have to go explain to your friends and family what happened. Do you think that will be pleasant? I know girlx was not at the alter (and I do not know how really serious they were) but I can see how her ex could feel really jilted. I do not think he wants to explain to his parents how he was dumped, nor explain to his friends, or even the neighbors (hence parking the motorcycle so they thought he was still there). Without any doubt, he has already introduced her to his parents, and they no doubt think that she was a good girl, and a fine catch. Now he has to go back and explain to them how he was dumped, and I am sure he is worried they will think he is a 'flake' for not being able to hold onto her. I think he wants her back so he doesn't have to go through it, and it is probably 'easier' to get her back then explain how he was dumped. Or if they already know about it, he wants her back so he can smooth things over and say "yes there was a slight problem but I fixed it". Breaking up is not fun, being dumped is not fun, even in the West but in Thailand it is worst. I mean in the west, 'casual dating' is the norm, and people can go through a series of relationships in the course of a year, and it is not unusual. If one of your girlfriends said she had 6 boyfriends last year, or went on dates with 3 different guys in a week, you wouldn't consider her to be 'weird'. Breaking up, starting new relationships, it's all water under the bridge. In Thailand, boys and girls (at least higher class ones--we're not talking gigolos or bar girls here) are expected to be a little more 'serious' in their relationships. The thing with "face" is that it may be the only thing a person has, so you want to protect it. Thai people generally are not wealthy (at least by Western standards). Even if they do not have alot of money, they have 'face'. Take the guy who picks up garbage from the street. He does not make alot of money. What does he have in life? Some meager possessions, maybe a rented room. But he has face. Call it 'ego', 'self worth', 'self respect', or whatever, it is all 'face'. So even though he may have nothing he can still hold his head up hi knowing that he is an honorable man in his community. And that may be the only thing he has. And if you take away a person's only possession, then you have a war on your hands. The dangerous thing about 'face' is that Thais will kill over 'face' and they will die over 'face'. And the threat of imprisonment has precious little effect over it. A woman cutting off her man's unit, and looking at prison? Saving face is more important than going to prison. There was another article in the TV news forum about a Lithuanian being stabbed on walking street in Pattaya, after getting into an argument with the guys that shuffle tourists into the girly bars. That made perfect sense to me. The bar guy does not make alot of money but he has face, and he will protect it at all costs. And I'm sure the other bar guys were there watching him get into an argument--his peers--so he can't back down. In that situation it is more important to save face and nearly kill a person, risk prison, than to lose face. After all the bar guy still has to go back and live/work in his community. And it is really all about community. That article/quote that you cited in your post is dead on. In the West, a person is independent, and it is all about 'freedom' and doing what you want. In Thailand, it is about knowing your place in your community and maintaining it. You ask your parents, or an elder before you do anything, and you really care about what your community thinks about you. In the West, you are lauded for being independent and not giving a rat's a** what anyone thinks about you, but in Thailand what everyone else thinks about you is the most important thing. And everyone in Thailand somehow knows everything about you. As an example, in the states I have a tract home built by one of those large construction companies, that are all cookie cutter and look the same. For years, I never talked to my neighbors. Didn't know who they are, what they did, etc. Even today, I have no idea who some of them are. I don't think that is really 'unusual' for the U.S. But in Thailand, if you look down the local Soi's around dinner time, you will see people in the streets eating (at outside restaraunts or street vendors), drinking, talking, socializing. People in Thailand generally have a large social network, and knows everyone else in their community. In my Soi in Thailand, everyone knows who I am, and I know who they are. And everyone in the neighborhood gossips, and basically knows everyone else's business. So if you lose 'face'...EVERYBODY WILL KNOW ABOUT IT. So face is a person's most prized possesion, perhaps they're only possession, AND everyone else knows your business. So that's why people kill and die over face. And that's why when there is a loss of face, generally something has to be done. In the West, if someone insults me/wrongs me, I can walk away. In Thailand, it is almost like you are "expected" to do something. In regards to the question of "less severe" methods of restoring face, that is a hard question to answer as the examples of murder and mutilation are 'face' taken to extremes. Countless Thais are dumped/break up and no one dies, just like the west. So no, I'm not saying that the ex is going to try and kill her or stab her, or whatever. But I am saying that a loss of face is not something easily let go, and generally something has to be done. And this can be obsessing, and making numerous attempts to get back with her, parking the motorcycle out in front of the house, or telling her to call the cops on him. I am more concerned that if contact is maintained, that just gives more of an opportunity for him to 'do something'. And, as another example, what do you think is going to happen if she lives in the same village, and gets a new boyfriend, and the ex comes upon them walking arm and arm down the street? I can see Mr. Ex punching new guy. So it is best just to get away, cut off contact, rather than give an opportunity for 'problems'. The OP said she could not move out of the village, and if that is the case, at least don't talk to him or tolerate him coming around, because that's just giving him an opportunity to act. That's all I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g00dgirl Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 That article/quote that you cited in your post is dead on. I actually wrote that part myself, I just made it inverted not as a quote, but because it's a bit off topic from girlx original problem and belongs more in a thread about the whole face thing. It's very interesting everything you are writing submaniac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g00dgirl Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Why wouldn't girlx's Ex just tell everyone that he left her, so that nobody thinks he was dumped? Is it because it would be just as bad, leaving a girl, making him lose face just the same way? One more thing, it's also not easy for a girl to dump a guy, she could have also introduced him to her friends and family and for a girl it's also not nice having to explain to people that something went wrong, no matter whose fault it was. But normally foreign friends/family understand that some relationships don't last forever and that it can be better to break up than living together unhappily. I am not really sure Thai people see it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
submaniac Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 Why wouldn't girlx's Ex just tell everyone that he left her, so that nobody thinks he was dumped? Is it because it would be just as bad, leaving a girl, making him lose face just the same way? I guess it is hard to do that when you share the same group of friends. I mean if they see both, and one is acting sad and depressed, and the other is acting happy, and they know those two aren't together...well it isn't hard to figure out, no matter what is said. Of course I should add, that not letting go may not be due to Thai culture and loss of face. He may just really like her and not want her to go. Without knowing everybody, it is just conjecture on my part. But if it is him just missing girlx, then the issue of face will add gasoline to the fire. And I think it is harder to be dumped as a Thai male than as a Western male, just because of the culture. And I mean it is a loss of face, and it is emasculating as Thai men like to believe themselves in charge. And yes, I know that it is hard to end a relationship, even if you are doing the dumping. Yup, been there, liked the person, felt bad for her, wished her the best...but you can't be with someone the rest of your life just because you feel sorry for them. And yes, I think Western parents and friends would understand. Maybe his Thai parents feel the same way and do understand. But, he may just be afraid to tell them or may feel he looks bad if he already told them. But again, I think it is conjecture on my part because I don't know either one of them. But I do think that getting away (as everyone else has said) is the best way. He's just gonna keep coming back, and will cause problems if a line isn't drawn. Now that is something I am certain of just because I know alot of guys who would do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virin Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 submaniac Great post, very well explanation about "face". I'd like to add another word "sak sri" or dignity, many Thai men have strong sense of it (Thai women as well but degree of reactions will be various), you can kill them but you CANNOT insult them (kaa dâai yăam mâi dâai). Some men consider "being dumbed" is like insulting, introducing any girl as his gf is something important, it's the respect, trust, serious relationship to that girl (If it's just casual sex, he wouldn't say she is his gf). Some men are not good in handling this kind of situation, dignity of himself and his family needs to be protected by doing something. This is NOT applied to all Thai men, some men are able to let it go but some aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlx Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 nice posts submaniac, and i do think you are right, face has a lot to do with it in this situation. i think trying to keep face makes people act more stupid and pathetic than just shrugging off a loss of face, but then i am not thai. i would like to clarify that i do/did not support this guy financially though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traveller5000 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) You could try and get it clear in your head why you want to break up with him, I mean 100% clear, and try and explain it to him in a way that penetrates and registers in his brain cells. It could mean a different verbal strategy. Speak as slowly and as carefully and with as much empathy/understanding as possible. Then he will know you are very clear on where you stand & there are no doubts in your mind, and therefore take away any trace of hope for him. This implies no contradictory messages. Could also try the ice queen suggestion, suffocate his hope in this way. Failing that, you could just start to act like a complete bitch, and drive him away like that. good luck. Edited February 13, 2008 by traveller5000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbk Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 I believe girlx's ex is not local to the island if I remember correctly? So the whole family issue, if so, would really be a non-issue unless girlx has gone to visit his family home with him. Also, need to add that, especially on the beach areas like where girlx lives, Thai guys often have a multitude of farang girlfriends. Flavor of the month, I call them. here this month, next month get a new one so if he were to be seen as having dumped her, I doubt there would have been a problem. I agree that it seems odd he didn't just lie that it had been up to him, unless of course, it had already become widely known that you were breaking up with him and then it would have been too late for him to save face. Perhaps he does really care for you and feels that the relationship could make it if given a chance. I do recall you referring to him as your gik, so it appears you were never that serious about him in the first place. Is it possible that he had more feelings for you than you did for him? This could also lead to him not wishing to break up. As it would with anyone in the same situation, male or female. Nobody likes to be the dumpee. Can't say there is any other solution than to totally ignore him since you are unable to move. What's done is done, so now you will just have to give him the cold shoulder as anything else could be perceived by him as a second chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlx Posted February 13, 2008 Author Share Posted February 13, 2008 yeah you're right SBK- in the end it seems to be a combination of things... i never meant it to become a serious relationship (he is also 8 years younger than i am), whereas he apparently did. also the face thing for sure- i AM a good catch for any thai man, and though i don't support him, i do give him a bit of prestige in a village where he is not a local (though he does have more friends than i do here). i don't get much out of the relationship other than convenience- someone to talk to, someone to drive me around, someone to go out with (ie. it keeps me from being lonely in a land of musical tourists)...but to him i probably represent a better future in a lot of aspects. i have never lived anywhere in my life as long as i have lived in thong nai pan (usually average about 3 months in a place!), so it has been intruiging learning to deal with small village life, especially with all the crazy people in this particular village! and as far as breaking up goes, i have never stuck around to find out what happens and in that way have managed to end up being friends with ALL my exes. anyway in this case i will either give it one more chance until something better comes along or i will cut off... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momo8 Posted February 13, 2008 Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) Submaniac you have the same insight as DamianMavis had.......you are not him in another reincarnation are you? Kool hair and glasses obviously a makeup trick and not combover.Kudos to you. Edited February 13, 2008 by Momo8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
submaniac Posted February 14, 2008 Share Posted February 14, 2008 Kool hair and glasses obviously a makeup trick and not combover.Kudos to you. Thank you for the compliment. I am thrilled to know that the combover was so good that it fooled you! And the glasses...here's a picture of me without them: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lioness Posted February 15, 2008 Share Posted February 15, 2008 How to break up with a Thai... Very Very carefully... and watch out for your safety. In his mind you will always be his property, no matter that you have finished it. Take care of yourself, I am speaking from experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlx Posted February 16, 2008 Author Share Posted February 16, 2008 i agree with you. i don't think i am in danger but i know another girl going through the same thing right now and i definitely think she is in danger. you're right, thai men consider you their "property". and they lose face if you refuse them. and we all know what happens when that fragile thai ego is insulted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ave Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Lioness has a point there. You never know how a person reacts after rejection, Thai or not. Although I'm quite far away from my ex I sometimes feel as if he'd been plotting something against me. This has happened to other girls I know who've had a difficult break-up due to jealousy and possessiveness. It sends shivers down my spine only thinking about it because I nearly lost my life there. But most of all it freaks me out that I realised after about 3 years of very close relationship with this guy that his latent tendency was to be violent. Everybody who knew him - Thais and non - could hardly believe it too. Back when we were together, after the revelatory fight, he had no choice but let me go and lost face around the village. Then he started getting closer again but I made it clear that the relationship had a sell-by-date label on it. He understood this because there was a safety issue and lack of control from his part. We met occasionally and lived what was left of 'us' trying to be friends. When I refused to move in back together he lost face once again and found some sudden excuse to cut me off completely which is what I was waiting for, for the sake of my safety, mainly.. Everybody in this thread has been giving sound advice, I'm glad I read it. Great input from Submaniac. We need more Thainess like yours to balance us up. I think you know what to do now Girlx.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patsycat Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Girlx, I wish you all the best in this situation, which must be <deleted>. But just keep to your guns and your gut and i am sure it will work out for the best. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seonai Posted February 16, 2008 Share Posted February 16, 2008 Hey PC lets send this bloke to GirlX to cheer her up a little bit ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endure Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 yeah you're right SBK- in the end it seems to be a combination of things... i never meant it to become a serious relationship (he is also 8 years younger than i am), whereas he apparently did. also the face thing for sure- i AM a good catch for any thai man, and though i don't support him, i do give him a bit of prestige in a village where he is not a local (though he does have more friends than i do here). i don't get much out of the relationship other than convenience- someone to talk to, someone to drive me around, someone to go out with (ie. it keeps me from being lonely in a land of musical tourists) I finally understand your "boyfriend's" problem. Wouldn't you have been better off hiring a cab by the day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seonai Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Very good point Endure the OP seems to get herself into situations when she's not even sure what she wants from those situations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seonai Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 '' i AM a good catch for any thai man, '' '' and though i don't support him, i do give him a bit of prestige in a village where he is not a local '' Geez you are such a racist ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brahmburgers Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 bambina why is it hard to be friends with an ex in thailand? other people have told me this too. is it just all or nothing, even though it's obvious that all doesn't work? pardonne moi, but this is 2 baht's worth from a guy. Having observed Thais for 26 years, I'd have to say the men are generally very immature - as regards possessiveness. I wouldn't be surprised if there's not a word/phrase in the Thai language for 'taking responsibility for oneself and one's actions" African guys are extremely possessive and Thai guys are in that league, as well as Latinos, Mediterranean guys, pretty much any young men who live near the Tropic of Capricorn. As for original post: yes, a variation on #2: , show him the door, give him 20 baht for bus fare, say bye bye and, close the door tight, and put in earplugs - because the guy will probably whimper and sniffle outside your door for several hours. or until he gets another 20 baht to go buy some congealed pigs blood over rice. Also, if he's prone to threats and violence, you (the lady) are going to have to meet those threats. In other words, make him know you have the police phone number in your mobile phone - ready to dial in two seconds. And have some brawny friends nearby if he decides to make a collosal @ss of himself. A flock of geese or a few Thai women will serve that role as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
girlx Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 Very good point Endure the OP seems to get herself into situations when she's not even sure what she wants from those situations and you don't? sorry but to me life is always a learning experience. and even in this case, i have learned a lot more about this guy even since i first posted this. i don't ever know what i want from a relationship when i first get into it! i don't think most people do! '' i AM a good catch for any thai man, '' '' and though i don't support him, i do give him a bit of prestige in a village where he is not a local '' Geez you are such a racist ... i am tired of you pulling the racist card on me seonai- why don't you go look it up in the dictionary. otherwise, if you have nothing interesting or diplomatic to say, please refrain from commenting on my personal life of which really, none of you know anything. i posted a topic on how to politely refuse someone who is a bit obsessive, and anything else is really off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotime Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Get a new Thai boyfriend, or pay him to pose as your new BF for awhile, and make sure he is bigger and stronger than the one you're trying to get rid of. Otherwise, he'll never leave. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seonai Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 You give the guy 'prestige where he is not local' GirlX... really? Would you advise me how to do this please... I mean give someone prestige. Is it because you are a Western woman or for another reason that you give this chap prestige? No offence meant, just asking how to copy your actions... I was actually considering adding a post about your personal safety but as you don't seem to like talking to me I won't at this stage... I do hope it all works out for you though in all sincerity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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