Thai Govt At Work To Bring Back Thaksin

[Pi Sek]

However, I fear that, in the days leading up to and following Thaksin's return, Thailand will not be a peaceful country. I live in the South, I don't think from the opinions of the Thais you've both heard from that either of you do. There are many people here talking blood. I don't know if they are selectively oblivious to the actions to bring Thaksin back with impunity, but many - especially in Suratthani where the Suthep-Jatuporn divide is the most prominent (Suthep is Mr. Surat, Jatuporn is a Surat fugitive disowned by his own mother on public radio) - just do not believe it can or will happen. And if it does...

I've heard this from too many people (personally, hundreds - and I don't claim to know everyone in the South!) to dismiss it as a few hardline opinions.

Interesting and you are right to assume this is not an area (Southern thinking) familiar to me.

Some questions if you have time.

What exactly do you mean that Suthep is Mister Surat? How exactly does he control his manor and is there a genuine loyalty extending beyond patronage?

What exactly is the objection of ordinary Southerners to Thaksin's return? Is it related to his statements when in power he would discriminate against areas that wouldn't vote for his party? If so, I can understand that.

I knew Jatuporn was from Surat but does he have a genuine local political base? If so what does it consist of? You say he is a fugitive disowned by his mother, but many would argue he is in many senses a cleaner and more honourable figure than Suthep, surely?

I always have time for polite questions my friend

I personally really dislike Suthep - but many in the South think that he is the key to getting development there. He controls it through cronyism - his relatives and aides hold many Democrat positions in Suratthani and most public sector benefits come from their lobbying. In the 2007 general election, note that the Suratthani Democrats (i.e. Suthep's faction) got 99% of the vote, the highest Democrat vote anywhere in the country. I think it slipped a bit this year due to the division in the pro-Dem cause from the PAD/For Heaven & Earth Party/NPP's sides.

The main objection to Thaksin is that he was perceived to be raping the country, taking money from taxpaying areas and putting it in non-taxpaying areas - not for the benefit of the country, but to make sure that TRT voters stayed TRT voters. So yes, in a way, it is related to his admission of discrimination against areas that wouldn't vote for his party. However, this is actually something I have no objection to - it will advance the country as a whole - and I have tried to relay this to the Thais with whom I discuss politics.

A close second is the rampant and overt corruption which I hugely dislike but will admit it will be there whoever is in power - something those that unconditionally support Suthep and I disagree on (Suthep and the Democrats are as guilty of that as anyone else, just generally on a smaller scale and benefitting more influential individuals rather than just Thaksin's immediate clique). The methods used in the War on Drugs and the problems in the Deep South are not large factors to most people I've met - they are to me, but I've only been living permanently in Thailand for 10 years and I somehow think that is a factor in my condemnation of extrajudicial police atrocities - Thais just take for granted and accept that the police are a form of state mafia. I think that's why there's such strong support for the army, who are (supposed to be) not attributed to any political party.

I think that most people who have ever met Jatuporn will agree his #1 interest is himself - not even his closest family, himself. I have to say that I consider him a far more despicable individual than even Suthep, who is what I'd call a bad person.

A question I've been hesitant to ask is this - would the country better off being separated? Or would there have to be a civil war first? I would be strongly against the idea myself and obviously I don't put this question to Thais.

Edit - sorry I missed your last question. No Jatuporn does not have a solid political base in Surat. His political career really started in the 1992 protests, even though he only joined Chamlong's party in 1996. He is from an influential Surat family. He made himself very unpopular with objections to Suthep's M.O. (unpopular because it would mean diminished results) after joining TRT, then more strongly aligned himself with the anti-Dem side by talking about injustices in Dem strongholds like his hometown.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Pi Sek

[jayboy]

I've thought of that same fable myself when looking at Thaksin's actions. He often seems to be unable to restrain himself from acting, even when action is not in his own self interest.

One of the stranger but most persistent themes in recent Thai history is how both sides have such a limited understanding of enlightened self interest, which at times means would have entailed a strategic retreat.There seems to be a sense that it's a zero sum game with a national compromise out of the question.Of course Crispin and others have argued such a compromise has already been negotiated, but I'm not so sure.Thaksin's recent miscalculation has been discussed in this thread.However to me at least as significantly is the royalist/military/feudal elite's (and their Sino Thai middle class hangers on) failure to read the entrails and reform its act (much like the British ruling class did).With more inspired and intelligent leadership the amart (for want of a better term) could have bolstered up its position for the foreseeable future, but stupidity and fear seem to have prevented that.Bismarck once said that genius is hearing the distant hooves of the horse of history, and grabbing the reins as the horse galloped by.Instead the elite takes refuge in a bizarre and meaningless Thai exceptionalism.I just hope that the price that has to be paid for this disfunctionalism is not bloodshed.

[rubl]

...

I knew Jatuporn was from Surat but does he have a genuine local political base? If so what does it consist of? You say he is a fugitive disowned by his mother, but many would argue he is in many senses a cleaner and more honourable figure than Suthep, surely?

I disagree. Ever since I saw k. Jatuporn on the main stage at Ratchaprasong with a Ghandi T-shirt and shouting 'we will fight to the last drop of our blood' I do not think k. Jatuporn an honorable person.

Revolutionaries are not to everyone's taste.I only half jest but calling for the destruction by whatever means of a corrupt and greedy elite is not in itself dishonourable, misconceived perhaps.On this forum there has over the last few months been a hate campaign against Jatuporn which has verged on the psychotic, but the reality is he has a very distinct political viewpoint which can be rejected, embraced , modified or ignored.

Whereas Suthep is just the usual provincial mafia boss, though more corrupt and unlikeable than most - without any discernible political philosophy other than personal aggrandizement.His association with Abhisit was toxic and was part of the reason the Democrats performed so poorly at the last election.

Personally I'd put both k. Jatuporn and k. Suthep in the same category of explicit deleted. both have a 'very distinct political view', both could be called 'mafia bosses', both could be called 'corrupt', both have seen 'hate campaigns' against them. At least no double standards in this :-)

[jayboy]

I think that most people who have ever met Jatuporn will agree his #1 interest is himself - not even his closest family, himself. I have to say that I consider him a far more despicable individual than even Suthep, who is what I'd call a bad person.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, particularly relating to Suthep's power base.

As to Jatuporn you may well be right but can you flesh this out a bit.Most of us have a healthy interest in our own well being and it's not really enough to say his Mum is not his greatest fan.

[jayboy]

Personally I'd put both k. Jatuporn and k. Suthep in the same category of explicit deleted. both have a 'very distinct political view', both could be called 'mafia bosses', both could be called 'corrupt', both have seen 'hate campaigns' against them. At least no double standards in this :-)

Sorry this looks a bit sloppy - they're just as bad as each other etc.

How is Jatuporn a mafia boss and how is he corrupt?

[hammered]

I've thought of that same fable myself when looking at Thaksin's actions. He often seems to be unable to restrain himself from acting, even when action is not in his own self interest.

One of the stranger but most persistent themes in recent Thai history is how both sides have such a limited understanding of enlightened self interest, which at times means would have entailed a strategic retreat.There seems to be a sense that it's a zero sum game with a national compromise out of the question.Of course Crispin and others have argued such a compromise has already been negotiated, but I'm not so sure.Thaksin's recent miscalculation has been discussed in this thread.However to me at least as significantly is the royalist/military/feudal elite's (and their Sino Thai middle class hangers on) failure to read the entrails and reform its act (much like the British ruling class did).With more inspired and intelligent leadership the amart (for want of a better term) could have bolstered up its position for the foreseeable future, but stupidity and fear seem to have prevented that.Bismarck once said that genius is hearing the distant hooves of the horse of history, and grabbing the reins as the horse galloped by.Instead the elite takes refuge in a bizarre and meaningless Thai exceptionalism.I just hope that the price that has to be paid for this disfunctionalism is not bloodshed.

Zero sum game is where certain Thai analysts said it was a good time back. It is hard to know unless a player, but the bismark quote is good one as that is where Thailand is and Thaksin has his hands firmly on the reigns while the elite are likely to stand in the way of the horse and command it to stop. Mmmm thinking about it maybe the legend of Canute

[rubl]

Personally I'd put both k. Jatuporn and k. Suthep in the same category of explicit deleted. both have a 'very distinct political view', both could be called 'mafia bosses', both could be called 'corrupt', both have seen 'hate campaigns' against them. At least no double standards in this :-)

Sorry this looks a bit sloppy - they're just as bad as each other etc.

How is Jatuporn a mafia boss and how is he corrupt?

Please go bother other people

[Pi Sek]

I think that most people who have ever met Jatuporn will agree his #1 interest is himself - not even his closest family, himself. I have to say that I consider him a far more despicable individual than even Suthep, who is what I'd call a bad person.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, particularly relating to Suthep's power base.

As to Jatuporn you may well be right but can you flesh this out a bit.Most of us have a healthy interest in our own well being and it's not really enough to say his Mum is not his greatest fan.

Simply put, he cares more about anyone than himself - and that includes ANYONE - and I'll even go so far as to he has absolutely no consideration for the wellbeing of others if it means his own personal advancement. I just had a quick look at the Wikipedia page for him - it says his terorism charge is for Khattiya Sawasdiphol's murder??? I never knew that, can anyone confirm? (A lot of theories about who shot Seh Daeng - I suspected it was a soldier, but thought it might be a Red faction given the timing of his assassination and comments immediately prior to his death).

My opinion on this - which is difficult to flesh out as it's based on his character, which to understand you have to witness first-hand and ask your own questions to him and listen to his carefully elusive answers - is that I feel that such a character should not be representing others in any form of authoritive body - but then, this is Thailand. I suppose it's just about extremes. Thaksin was one, Banharn was one, Jatuporn is one and Suthep is an example of one (much like Snoh, Newin...), and I strongly dislike all of them.

[jayboy]

Personally I'd put both k. Jatuporn and k. Suthep in the same category of explicit deleted. both have a 'very distinct political view', both could be called 'mafia bosses', both could be called 'corrupt', both have seen 'hate campaigns' against them. At least no double standards in this :-)

Sorry this looks a bit sloppy - they're just as bad as each other etc.

How is Jatuporn a mafia boss and how is he corrupt?

Please go bother other people

If you have no idea just say so, rather than being bad mannered.

[rubl]

Personally I'd put both k. Jatuporn and k. Suthep in the same category of explicit deleted. both have a 'very distinct political view', both could be called 'mafia bosses', both could be called 'corrupt', both have seen 'hate campaigns' against them. At least no double standards in this :-)

Sorry this looks a bit sloppy - they're just as bad as each other etc.

How is Jatuporn a mafia boss and how is he corrupt?

Please go bother other people

If you have no idea just say so, rather than being bad mannered.

not bad mannered, just trying to avoid trollish questions. May I remind you of what you wrote, like mine an opinion:

"Revolutionaries are not to everyone's taste.I only half jest but calling for the destruction by whatever means of a corrupt and greedy elite is not in itself dishonourable, misconceived perhaps.On this forum there has over the last few months been a hate campaign against Jatuporn which has verged on the psychotic, but the reality is he has a very distinct political viewpoint which can be rejected, embraced , modified or ignored.

Whereas Suthep is just the usual provincial mafia boss, though more corrupt and unlikeable than most - without any discernible political philosophy other than personal aggrandizement.His association with Abhisit was toxic and was part of the reason the Democrats performed so poorly at the last election."

Edited August 18, 2011 by rubl

[jayboy]

Simply put, he cares more about anyone than himself - and that includes ANYONE - and I'll even go so far as to he has absolutely no consideration for the wellbeing of others if it means his own personal advancement. I just had a quick look at the Wikipedia page for him - it says his terorism charge is for Khattiya Sawasdiphol's murder??? I never knew that, can anyone confirm? (A lot of theories about who shot Seh Daeng - I suspected it was a soldier, but thought it might be a Red faction given the timing of his assassination and comments immediately prior to his death).

My opinion on this - which is difficult to flesh out as it's based on his character, which to understand you have to witness first-hand and ask your own questions to him and listen to his carefully elusive answers - is that I feel that such a character should not be representing others in any form of authoritive body - but then, this is Thailand. I suppose it's just about extremes. Thaksin was one, Banharn was one, Jatuporn is one and Suthep is an example of one (much like Snoh, Newin...), and I strongly dislike all of them.

It's unlikely I shall be having a one to one with Jatuporn any time soon.In the meantime the impression remains his detractors have more to say about his bad character than his actual misdeeds.

[jayboy]

not bad mannered, just trying to avoid trollish questions. May I remind you of what you wrote, like mine an opinion:

"Revolutionaries are not to everyone's taste.I only half jest but calling for the destruction by whatever means of a corrupt and greedy elite is not in itself dishonourable, misconceived perhaps.On this forum there has over the last few months been a hate campaign against Jatuporn which has verged on the psychotic, but the reality is he has a very distinct political viewpoint which can be rejected, embraced , modified or ignored.

Whereas Suthep is just the usual provincial mafia boss, though more corrupt and unlikeable than most - without any discernible political philosophy other than personal aggrandizement.His association with Abhisit was toxic and was part of the reason the Democrats performed so poorly at the last election."

Sorry I don't understand the point you're making or the significance of quoting my earlier comment.I'm also sorry you have descended to the feeble retort of accusing me of being trollish.I was just thinking in the context of this thread that it's possible for people of different views to have a polite and constructive discussion.Premature thought it seems.

[rubl]

Sorry I don't understand the point you're making or the significance of quoting my earlier comment.I'm also sorry you have descended to the feeble retort of accusing me of being trollish.I was just thinking in the context of this thread that it's possible for people of different views to have a polite and constructive discussion.Premature thought it seems.

You state as your opinion that k. Jatuporn has distractors and k. Suthep is an evil man. I say both are in the same category, my opinion. Leave it at that. Of course when you're willing to completely document your opinion and how you came to it, I'll also give it a try.

Stay cool and keep smiling.

[elcent]

What coup will we witness

Thaksin's coup or an Army coup?

[OzMick]

the only thing i see happening now is prices going up....even my 5 bath chicken went to 10 bath!!!!

How could people be so stupid and let this new goverment rule...i feel ashamed.

Got a great laugh the other day - the red-to-the-core g/f complains that pork is going up, but Yingluk will fix that soon. I asked her whether that was before or after all the piggery workers got a pay rise. She was a picture of confusion - what has one got to do with the other?

I wonder if PTP wants another economics adviser.

So you're happy with a partner of such obviously differing levels of intellect?

"I love you honey, but you're the wrong colour (politically speaking)!"

Seriously, it's almost impossible to find anyone over average IQ when looking amongst red-shirt supporters, and the differing political views make for interesting discussion. Australians allow their wives to have a different political view, did you know - velly strange!

[mic6ard]

I wonder what gift he will bring to the wedding. Maybe a nice kimono from Japan?

Or a burqa from where he spends most of his time ...

Yeah, but lets have it right it was as transparent as spring water what the "plot" was right from the very time that Yinglucks name was put forward ,any one thinking any different is in urgent need of a brain transplant,LOL.

Totally agree with you there. Everybody should have known that this was one of the 'hidden' agendas. And guess what bring him back this year and:

1. He would be treated like a prince returning from exile instead of a fugitive on the run.

2. Some chance that there will be an uprising led by those who felt their years of work being undone.

3. He could potentially buy more vote by personally paying the 10m/body policy out of his own pocket

All we can hope for is that those in charge will be patient and do think slowly, clearly. The last think we need in this country is another coup or bout of violence.

[OzMick]

The main objection to Thaksin is that he was perceived to be raping the country, taking money from taxpaying areas and putting it in non-taxpaying areas - not for the benefit of the country, but to make sure that TRT voters stayed TRT voters. So yes, in a way, it is related to his admission of discrimination against areas that wouldn't vote for his party. However, this is actually something I have no objection to - it will advance the country as a whole - and I have tried to relay this to the Thais with whom I discuss politics.

I'm also in the south, and the "locals" (rather than Isaan blow-ins) have the same views. IMHO if the funds flowing north were for development, it could actually help in national development. Using it as vote-buying handouts helps nobody but the "donor".

[SICHONSTEVE]

I wonder what gift he will bring to the wedding. Maybe a nice kimono from Japan?

Or a burqa from where he spends most of his time ...

Yeah, but lets have it right it was as transparent as spring water what the "plot" was right from the very time that Yinglucks name was put forward ,any one thinking any different is in urgent need of a brain transplant,LOL.

Yes, but what about her (cast iron promise) that getting an amnesty for Thaksin was not one of her priorities as she was there to help her people!!!! Yet another lie - she is as dishonest as Bernie Madoff and has seemingly abandoned working for the people after just one week in charge. If she thinks that she will get away with this then she might be in for a "big surprise" as a majority of Thai's are not in favour of his return (understandably) as he is a liability and always will be!!!

[drdoom6996]

So far so good closer and closer to dear brothers return

The wedding is in 4 months - chaimai?

Miitary Coup next month..... any bets..?

Well, we've heard about a military coup for a year or so now.

Nothing happened yet. The reds are in power, the PM is a joke, Surapong is already working for his master, so that Thaksin will be on his merry way back here sooner than we can think, and still we are here, looking at this country on its way to be the laughing stock of the world....

I think the world may stop laughing soon and start wondering why these adults act like children. Why the law is for a select few. And why a PM for any country would help a convicted criminal go anywhere but Jail.

[lannarebirth]

The wedding is in 4 months - chaimai?

Miitary Coup next month..... any bets..?

Well, we've heard about a military coup for a year or so now.

Nothing happened yet. The reds are in power, the PM is a joke, Surapong is already working for his master, so that Thaksin will be on his merry way back here sooner than we can think, and still we are here, looking at this country on its way to be the laughing stock of the world....

I think the world may stop laughing soon and start wondering why these adults act like children. Why the law is for a select few. And why a PM for any country would help a convicted criminal go anywhere but Jail.

How do you think this one's going to turn out?

http://www.nationmul...k-30163079.html

[Buchholz]

I wonder what gift he will bring to the wedding. Maybe a nice kimono from Japan?

Or a burqa from where he spends most of his time ...

Some of his African blood diamonds would be expected.

.

[tragickingdom]

The Nation should write an article about the reasons behind the fact that the Democrat Party has lied straight face to their not so smart supporters. After all Interpol have stated clearly that they never issued a notice for the arrest of Thaksin because the Thai authorities did not requested it.

[rubl]

The Nation should write an article about the reasons behind the fact that the Democrat Party has lied straight face to their not so smart supporters. After all Interpol have stated clearly that they never issued a notice for the arrest of Thaksin because the Thai authorities did not requested it.

Lost in translation, which is work still in progress. Mind you, it might have been stopped by now.

Surely any request would need to be accompanied by proper documentation before the request would even be acknowledged.

Interestingly a recent topic talks about it, from 2011-08-15:

"Office of the Attorney Spokesperson Tanapit Moonpruek commented on the recent withdrawal of the arrest warrant for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra by the International Criminal Police Organization, or Interpol, the organization facilitating international police cooperation and of which Thailand is also member, saying that they have the right take such action."

"The prime minister says she has not ordered arrangement for the international police to scrap arrest warrant against her convicted brother Thaksin Shinawatra."

[jimbeam1]

the only thing i see happening now is prices going up....even my 5 bath chicken went to 10 bath!!!!

How could people be so stupid and let this new goverment rule...i feel ashamed.

Got a great laugh the other day - the red-to-the-core g/f complains that pork is going up, but Yingluk will fix that soon. I asked her whether that was before or after all the piggery workers got a pay rise. She was a picture of confusion - what has one got to do with the other?

I wonder if PTP wants another economics adviser.

Don't you just love it. How they are taken in. Sad thing is though it happens to voters the world over.

jb1

[YellowFeverCAD]

Lets hope not. It would potentially set off utter chaos. I dont know of anyone who would support that, and a lot of the people I know dont even vote PTP, but accept that Thaksin is going to be part of the future of a country that is going to have differences of opinion on many things, which will have to be resolved through democracy. Quite a sophisticated opinion really. Then again most people whether they like Thaksin or not have far far more important things to worry about, and one trend I notice among Thai friends is that everyone thinks he is coming back and so it might as well be sooner rather than later as once he is back it ends all the games that go on while he trots round the world and one lot try to keep him away and the other try to bring him back. I am actually amazed that every non-PTP person I know right down to the most ardent PADer thinks he will be back and not serve time

You must know the most intellectual Thai people in all of Thailand. I employ 100+ Thai's in various businesses and the running theme from all the people that work for us from the Issan area is once PTP (Thaksin Proxy THEY call them) fixes all the stuff that the DEMs did wrong the country will be perfect.. just like before. When you ask them when before is, they go blank and give the always ready Thai response to ANYTHING they don't understand "you not thai you not understand thai way" then walk away muttering about farang under their breath. We also have people working with us from the South and the opinion from them is very clearly that if Thaksin sets foot on Thai soil again expect him to be killed.. they are very hard line about it...I assume its just a lot of big talk

The interesting part to me in all of this is how many of our employees that at one point would have died for the Red Shirt movement are getting impatient with PTP obviously not all of them probably not even a majority right now but quite a few are openly questioning others on the job about when all these great things are coming, free computer, 300 baht a day, 15,000 baht per month for their kids when they graduate etc... the list of people getting impatient is growing among the Thai's I deal with daily... I wonder about all the rest of them out there...

It is also interesting to note how many of our employees have school age kids, many in University and those kids just hate Thaksin and think their parents are fools for voting 1 in the last Election.. it gets rather heated sometimes around their dinner tables we are told.

[rubl]

The Nation should write an article about the reasons behind the fact that the Democrat Party has lied straight face to their not so smart supporters. After all Interpol have stated clearly that they never issued a notice for the arrest of Thaksin because the Thai authorities did not requested it.

Lost in translation, which is work still in progress. Mind you, it might have been stopped by now.

Surely any request would need to be accompanied by proper documentation before the request would even be acknowledged.

Interestingly a recent topic talks about it, from 2011-08-15:

"Office of the Attorney Spokesperson Tanapit Moonpruek commented on the recent withdrawal of the arrest warrant for former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra by the International Criminal Police Organization, or Interpol, the organization facilitating international police cooperation and of which Thailand is also member, saying that they have the right take such action."

"The prime minister says she has not ordered arrangement for the international police to scrap arrest warrant against her convicted brother Thaksin Shinawatra."

Well, well, what do we know, assuming we know anything. Was I duped Latest development on arrest warrant here

"The Truth About Interpol Warrant for Thaksin"

[MILT]

I wonder what gift he will bring to the wedding. Maybe a nice kimono from Japan?

Or a burqa from where he spends most of his time ...

Yeah, but lets have it right it was as transparent as spring water what the "plot" was right from the very time that Yinglucks name was put forward ,any one thinking any different is in urgent need of a brain transplant,LOL.

Exactly! We are watching the attempted unfolding of Thaskins return.

[phiphidon]

Well, well, what do we know, assuming we know anything. Was I duped Latest development on arrest warrant here

"The Truth About Interpol Warrant for Thaksin"

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4633522

I don't think you were alone in being duped, Rubl. Kudos to you for admitting it though .

Not withstanding the fact that certain people in the Media / other organisations are rearranging their alignment in a political sense, I wonder just how many more "revelations" will surface as time goes by, how many more incidents the Democrats lied (shock!) about?

[rubl]

Well, well, what do we know, assuming we know anything. Was I duped Latest development on arrest warrant here

"The Truth About Interpol Warrant for Thaksin"

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4633522

I don't think you were alone in being duped, Rubl. Kudos to you for admitting it though .

Not withstanding the fact that certain people in the Media / other organisations are rearranging their alignment in a political sense, I wonder just how many more "revelations" will surface as time goes by, how many more incidents the Democrats lied (shock!) about?

I didn't admit anything, my dear chap. As usual I was just wondering. With the newsflashes in this topic I'm really surprised that government officials have said 'we didn't ask them to withdraw the warrant', 'they have the right to do so' and another topic gives a contradiction. Something rotten in the state of Thailand, methinks.

[KKK]

Just what is it with this country's obsession with its overly rich, corrupt, law breaking people.

Do they all wish to be the same?

Are they hoping some will rub off on themselves?