Thai Police Suspect They Have Found Bodies Of 169 Missing Red-Shirts

[pampal]

Have any of the corpses been positively identified?

If not, how do they know they are red shirts?

Maybe they are muslims from the south, or illegal workers. Or maybe something else.

How does anyone know for sure at this time?

[geriatrickid]

So if this results from sort of of conspiracy stemming from the last government and there was an attempt to hide extremely incriminating evidence of the type that could bring down a government and even lead to allegations of crimes against humanity, I have one question:

Why were the bodies not cremated? There are certainly plenty of cremation facilities available at temples. Remember how the Chinese dealt murdered protestors at Tiananmen Square?

Something just doesn't seem right here.....

Fair enough question. If these were redshirts, and there is no evidence yet to suggest they were, it would have made sense for the bodies to be cremated. However, cremations require money and in Thailand unclaimed bodies are usually buried in a mass grave unless a charity pays for the cremations. Had someone paid for the cremation, questions would have been asked and it would have attracted attention. Maybe someone did say cremate the bodies, but TIL and the money was purloined. I doubt that though. It is much easier to bury large numbers of bodies if it's "official" since it happens every so often.

[cyb]

Bring back Quincy

[geriatrickid]

Have any of the corpses been positively identified?

If not, how do they know they are red shirts?

Maybe they are muslims from the south, or illegal workers. Or maybe something else.

How does anyone know for sure at this time?

You are correct and we won't know for sure until the bone fragments are sampled. This will also require relatives to donate DNA samples. The collection of such samples and mapping of relatives' DNA will take months. This is why I say, no one should speculate.

[Thai at Heart]

Interesting that only the Nation is reporting this. If it were a story with substance it would be all over national and international press.

Its 3am in Europe and the US is worrying about $14tn and creationism in Texas.

I think you overestimate the importance of Thailand in the global news. However, if it becomes crimes against humanity, believe me, this story will run and run. I wonder if they serve Thai food in the Hague?

[Pib]

Life is cheap in Thailand, very cheap.

[bubba]

Even the wording "Thai police suspect they have found bodies of 169 red shirts" seems strange to me. Apparently, some bodies which obviously must be badly decomposed have been found. Nobody knows exactly when they were buried. What leads to the conclusion that these were red shirts? With all due respect to the deceased, did they still have red shirts on?

Matichon and Kom Chad Luek are quoting a temple abbot of saying that bodies arrived at his temple in August of 2010. MCOT 9in Kom Chat Luek) are quoting police as saying the bodies started arriving in April 2010. So which is it? Obviously the police quote of April 2010 is much more incriminating, but unfortunately it doesn't match which what the abbot is quoted as saying.

And I still have to ask: if the past government really wanted to dispose of 169 murdered red shirts, do you really think rather than cremate them, they would have buried 169 bodies, each of which with DNA and other evidence that could serve to bring down an entire government and quite possibly result in charges of crimes against humanity?

[Roachiebkk]

Have any of the corpses been positively identified?

If not, how do they know they are red shirts?

Maybe they are muslims from the south, or illegal workers. Or maybe something else.

How does anyone know for sure at this time?

I'm steering towards the illegal Burmese worker story. There's been loads of crackdowns over the past few years and I daresay many of these non-accountable people could disappear quite easily.

[bubba]

So if this results from sort of of conspiracy stemming from the last government and there was an attempt to hide extremely incriminating evidence of the type that could bring down a government and even lead to allegations of crimes against humanity, I have one question:

Why were the bodies not cremated? There are certainly plenty of cremation facilities available at temples. Remember how the Chinese dealt murdered protestors at Tiananmen Square?

Something just doesn't seem right here.....

Fair enough question. If these were redshirts, and there is no evidence yet to suggest they were, it would have made sense for the bodies to be cremated. However, cremations require money and in Thailand unclaimed bodies are usually buried in a mass grave unless a charity pays for the cremations. Had someone paid for the cremation, questions would have been asked and it would have attracted attention. Maybe someone did say cremate the bodies, but TIL and the money was purloined. I doubt that though. It is much easier to bury large numbers of bodies if it's "official" since it happens every so often.

Do you really think that any government would have been unable to find the money or resources to cremate 169 bodies which could be used to accuse them of genocide or crimes against humanity??? Are you really saying that said government would have to wait for charity to cremate the bodies?

But what is true is that is these bodies were a collection of unclaimed corpses from one or more hospitals, money may not have been available to provide them with a proper cremation, so they were buried instead. This seems like the likely scenario to me.

[jfchandler]

Two thoughts here...

1. Curious to see a newspaper headline talking about the suspected find of 169 red shirt bodies when there's absolutely ZERO evidence presented in the newspaper report as to the basis for anyone thinking they are red shirts...

2. It's pretty obvious what the ultimate police investigation will conclude.... same as they always do.... Of course it will end up being a mass suicide.

PS - Now that the forensic team that couldn't figure out what killed the tourists in Chiang Mai has finished their work there, maybe they can travel south and assist with the Rayong case...bringing their considerable expertise to bear.

[Thai at Heart]

Even the wording "Thai police suspect they have found bodies of 169 red shirts" seems strange to me. Apparently, some bodies which obviously must be badly decomposed have been found. Nobody knows exactly when they were buried. What leads to the conclusion that these were red shirts? With all due respect to the deceased, did they still have red shirts on?

Matichon and Kom Chad Luek are quoting a temple abbot of saying that bodies arrived at his temple in August of 2010. MCOT 9in Kom Chat Luek) are quoting police as saying the bodies started arriving in April 2010. So which is it? Obviously the police quote of April 2010 is much more incriminating, but unfortunately it doesn't match which what the abbot is quoted as saying.

And I still have to ask: if the past government really wanted to dispose of 169 murdered red shirts, do you really think rather than cremate them, they would have buried 169 bodies, each of which with DNA and other evidence that could serve to bring down an entire government and quite possibly result in charges of crimes against humanity?

All very true. But, if these are bodies from the crackdown, it very much depends on the mindset of those involved in disposing of the bodies. Bodies have been disappearing after army crackdowns in Thailand for decades, so why dispose of them differently this time around? The difference in 2011, is that people appear to be a hell of a lot less scared to speak up, and the all reaching power of the army is less than it was 20 years ago. Do you imagine any senior army commander in Thailand believes he would ever end up getting into trouble for last years crackdown?

It was exactly the same situation with the coup 5 years ago. The army brushed off their modus operandi from the previous 50 years, and then realised that in 2007 you actually have to have a way to talk to the world and create a functioning semi-competent government, then make promises to the world about elections and all these other inconvenient things that come with more exposure to the world.

[EyesWideOpen]

This certainly is an odd story. Not really sure what they are talking about by doing DNA tests. Unless they have tissue samples from the missing people, they are not really going to be able to do much. Would they bring in all family members of missing red shirts, and cross match? I do not think so. After seeing the mind numbing incompetence of the police investigation of the tourist deaths in Chiang Mai, I hold little hope for this investigation to bear fruit. The timing is also interesting, coinciding with a bit of a furor over the return of The Chosen One..... In order to avoid another coup, I think the strategy is to severely discredit the military. In essence to defang the tiger. Instead of spending months on DNA, I suggest they line the bodies up in a row, and examine each one for bullet holes from high powered rifles.......

[Phatcharanan]

Maybe this is the first time YOU heard of missing red shirts, the military slaughtered so many more protesters at the wat that night than the 'news' reported.

Ok Mr. Fully Informed.........please tell us how many were actually killed then? With your 'inside knowledge' it should be a revelation.

[Buchholz]

Map showing location of the 169 bodies found in mass graves in Rayong Province in Thailand: http://bit.ly/nblta9

/via@RichardBarrow

dead link:

Server not found

Firefox can't find the server at www.thailandphotomap.com.

check your internet connection. The link works like a charm.

Added by Admin

Full link to map: http://www.thailandphotomap.com/thailand-news/169-bodies-found-in-mass-graves-in-rayong/

Thanks for that.

[keith101]

The whole report sounds fishy to me. I can believe the part that monks may not have known what was going on at their temple (they didn't acknowledge the multiple fetus stored for many months, and many wats have feral dogs which monks are adept at not noticing). However, I cannot believe so many dead bodies could be moved around without raising alarms, ....even in the land of 'mai pen rai.'

Some mentioned Rohinga or Burmese - which sounds slightly plausible. Or other SE Asians hired by the Thaksin machine which fueled the Bkk riots or 2009 and 2010, and, if killed, were expendable in their view.

This could all be filed under 'False Stories' until we hear more. Too often in Thailand, there are inflamatory stories - which turn out to be either badly reported or just plain false. - like the recent report of a Thai gang of near dozen members who brutally murdered a Swede - which turned out to be false on several counts. Even numbers can't always be relied upon when spoken. in Thai, the number 11 sounds almost identical to the number 18. And have you ever looked closely at numbers written by a Thai? a number one looks like a seven, and a number four could look like a nine or a zero or a six, or......who knows? Who teaches the kids how to write numbers? Add to that, the word for 'far' (glai) sounds almost identical to the word for 'near' (glai). Imagine if there were Thai soldiers in a forward trench, attempting to call back artillery aiming adjustments on a nearby target. The soldier says 'glai', and the gunner thinks 'close' rather than 'far' and 'KA_BOOM!" ......game over.

thai is a tonal language and even if the word is spelt the same it is spoken differently so there are on errors maybe if you listened to them speak you would know this uless of course your tone deaf.

Edited August 19, 2011 by metisdead
Reply repaired, when replying to post, do not put your reply inside the [quote] tags.

[Thai at Heart]

So if this results from sort of of conspiracy stemming from the last government and there was an attempt to hide extremely incriminating evidence of the type that could bring down a government and even lead to allegations of crimes against humanity, I have one question:

Why were the bodies not cremated? There are certainly plenty of cremation facilities available at temples. Remember how the Chinese dealt murdered protestors at Tiananmen Square?

Something just doesn't seem right here.....

Fair enough question. If these were redshirts, and there is no evidence yet to suggest they were, it would have made sense for the bodies to be cremated. However, cremations require money and in Thailand unclaimed bodies are usually buried in a mass grave unless a charity pays for the cremations. Had someone paid for the cremation, questions would have been asked and it would have attracted attention. Maybe someone did say cremate the bodies, but TIL and the money was purloined. I doubt that though. It is much easier to bury large numbers of bodies if it's "official" since it happens every so often.

Do you really think that any government would have been unable to find the money or resources to cremate 169 bodies which could be used to accuse them of genocide or crimes against humanity??? Are you really saying that said government would have to wait for charity to cremate the bodies?

But what is true is that is these bodies were a collection of unclaimed corpses from one or more hospitals, money may not have been available to provide them with a proper cremation, so they were buried instead. This seems like the likely scenario to me.

It was the CRES running the country at the time, which is in effect the army, with the civilian government fronting it up. I wouldn't expect the government to be able to provide plans to the army about how to dispose of 170 odd bodies, they are the one's with the knowledge about that type of thing.

Of course it is possible that these are unclaimed bodies, but why would a paper like the Nation appear to be at the forefront of the story. Beyond that, if this turns out to be a complete hoax of a story, one would really have to wonder why would the Shinawatras be going around goading the army in such a public fashion? Didn't they learn their lesson last time?

[Bkkorupcountry]

The whole report sounds fishy to me. I can believe the part that monks may not have known what was going on at their temple (they didn't acknowledge the multiple fetus stored for many months, and many wats have feral dogs which monks are adept at not noticing). However, I cannot believe so many dead bodies could be moved around without raising alarms, ....even in the land of 'mai pen rai.'

Some mentioned Rohinga or Burmese - which sounds slightly plausible. Or other SE Asians hired by the Thaksin machine which fueled the Bkk riots or 2009 and 2010, and, if killed, were expendable in their view.

This could all be filed under 'False Stories' until we hear more. Too often in Thailand, there are inflamatory stories - which turn out to be either badly reported or just plain false. - like the recent report of a Thai gang of near dozen members who brutally murdered a Swede - which turned out to be false on several counts. Even numbers can't always be relied upon when spoken. in Thai, the number 11 sounds almost identical to the number 18. And have you ever looked closely at numbers written by a Thai? a number one looks like a seven, and a number four could look like a nine or a zero or a six, or......who knows? Who teaches the kids how to write numbers? Add to that, the word for 'far' (glai) sounds almost identical to the word for 'near' (glai). Imagine if there were Thai soldiers in a forward trench, attempting to call back artillery aiming adjustments on a nearby target. The soldier says 'glai', and the gunner thinks 'close' rather than 'far' and 'KA_BOOM!" ......game over.

It is almost identical only to farangs who are not used to tonal languages such as Thai and Chinese. For speakers of tonal languages, there is no issue

[Buchholz]

I urge those that may jump to conclusions that these are redshirt s to allow the police to investigate as it is quite normal do to a body dump.

That being said, if these people do turn out to be redshirts, the response of some people in TVF will be interesting.

I think we can already guess the responses from the usual mob, we will have such literary gems as:

'the reds killed them for propaganda purposes'

'its their own fault, if they were not there etc etc etc'

'the army only shot at armed people so they must have all been armed and dangerous'

'they are an overspill from Thaksins war on drugs'

'they were paid to be there so its their own choice'

'it wont have anything to do with the dems, abhisit is the least corrupt politician'

etc etc etc, I am sure people can think of more, not the usual baying mob need any help with their lies and propaganda

Yeah, amazing how baseball man went into immediate denial.

If these unfortunates are proven to be red shirt demonstrators killed by the army there could, and should be, severe problems for the authorities in power at the time.

Shame some don't read the first 8 words of the post they are quoting.

p.s. not seeing anyone making denials.

.

[toybits]

Corpses that are burried underground decompose at a much slower rate that corpses left exposed to the elements (above ground - that is). So these bodies would still have lots of tissue from which DNA could be extracted. Even if only bones are left, it is still possible to stratch off sames containing DNA. DNA is such a wonderful material. The criminals that did this should start getting worried.

This certainly is an odd story. Not really sure what they are talking about by doing DNA tests. Unless they have tissue samples from the missing people, they are not really going to be able to do much. Would they bring in all family members of missing red shirts, and cross match? I do not think so. After seeing the mind numbing incompetence of the police investigation of the tourist deaths in Chiang Mai, I hold little hope for this investigation to bear fruit. The timing is also interesting, coinciding with a bit of a furor over the return of The Chosen One..... In order to avoid another coup, I think the strategy is to severely discredit the military. In essence to defang the tiger. Instead of spending months on DNA, I suggest they line the bodies up in a row, and examine each one for bullet holes from high powered rifles.......

[bkkjames]

One might be forgiven for thinking such a find would have some political value prior to the election-but why now?

Going after the green machine are they? Good luck with that.

[elcent]

looks more like unclaimed unidentifyable bodies from the Tsunami or as someone mentioned before, Burmese migrant workers, or even war on drugs victims. Lets see what else they have found.

[random]

looks more like unclaimed unidentifyable bodies from the Tsunami or as someone mentioned before, Burmese migrant workers, or even war on drugs victims. Lets see what else they have found.

Maybe Chiang Mai hotel guests

[hbullinger]

If they were really Red Shirts then they may have been those who asked the red leaders at Ratchaprasong to have their ID cards back so that they can leave the protest site and go home. now just look where that got them. It would also explain why their families didn't dare to search for them.

[Thai at Heart]

One might be forgiven for thinking such a find would have some political value prior to the election-but why now?

Going after the green machine are they? Good luck with that.

Exactly what I was thinking. Didn't the various incarnations of Thaksin's political parties work out that you mess with the army at your political (and personal) peril?

[Fishface]

Well--when you walk in to a temple with 160 dead people in a truck,--- don't you get a receipt or something?

[kermitzkitchen]

Coming right out saying that this may be some previously unknown 169 missing Red Shirts (random's link mentions about 30 missing persons during the Red Shirt protest) is very suspicious, even more coming from a relative of Thaksin and Yingluck at the time they are on the spotlight over the FMs decision to help a fugitive. I'm thinking this announcement is an attempt to draw attention away from that.

I agree, this is how the games played.

[Jawnie]

It may well be as you say, that this is one common way of disposing of unclaimed bodies. But to me, it smacks of a deeper, more hideous scandal than red shirts being killed by the government and then the bodies hidden. The deeper scandal is that it involves the temples and monks. Truly, the monks and wats were involved in this crime, if that's what it turns up to be. To put it mildly, if such is the case, it leaves MUCH to be desired of Thai Buddhism.

Please tell me there is some requirement for hospitals or morgues and other governmental agencies to "sign off" on such "disposals". Please tell me that the wats and monks have some protocol for assuring everything is proper regarding disposal of bodies. Please tell me it takes much, much more than two people simply showing up with 169 bodies for disposal.

If this is a common method for disposing of unclaimed bodies, it cries out for massive reform and regulation. What your saying is that the Thai legal system and government provides a bonafide method for disposing of bodies. Any idiot, criminal, or corrupt Army politician in Thailand can see, as plainly as the nose on everyone face, that this provides final step in the process of acting and killing political enemies with impunity.

As other posters have said, making DNA matches will be a fairly straight-forward matter through the families.

If this turns out to be red shirts, it is a crime against humanity, which is a violation of international law.

Two men brought in 169 bodies ... and no one asked any questions?

According to the temples' abbots, the bodies had been brought in by two men from a local charity organisation who told them that the corpses had not been claimed and there were no legal cases related to their deaths

Believe it or not, this is how unclaimed bodys are dealt with. Every so often, the hospital mortuaries clean out their unclaimed bodies. It is not uncommon to have a large transfer. The Phor Tek Tunk in Bangkok set a record when it undertook a mass cremation of 21,000 unclaimed bodies to ease the crowding at its Bangkok cemetary. I think they were burning something like 300 bodies a day. In many cases, bodies are buried in a mass grave as a temporary measure until space or the numbers warrant a big batch shipment. Approx. 500 unclaimed bodies from the tsunami were mass buried 2 years after the event.

It is quite believable that the disposal of 169 bodies would not have raised eyebrows. The fees paid for the facilities most probably helped as well. What can a Temple do when what appear to be legitimate people say, hello we need to deal with our bi annual or quarterly unclaimed bodies. I wouldn't be surprised if the delivery boys didn't claim to be "official" .

[dude007]

According to the temples' abbots, the bodies had been brought in by two men from a local charity organisation who told them that the corpses had not been claimed and there were no legal cases related to their deaths.

Amazing Thailand where hundreds of bodies can be buried without so much as a "hi diddly-do".

On the heels of the thousands of aborted fetuses found earlier at other temples, the monkhood is taking another hit.

.

It looks to me that this is even a sort of a temple's business in which the monks are good! Everyone here in Thailand who wants to get rid of a [many] corpse can go to he abbot with whatever story he fabricates... But why they haven't been cremated?

[moe666]

The only ones getting their tit in a wringer over this seems to be a few of the red supporters. So here goes boys. I think it is the bodies of red shirts who became disaffected with the bullsh-- and where killed when they wanted to leave. They may have put the men in black to work killing their own as well as shooting the Army troops in April of 2010

Edited August 19, 2011 by moe666

[Insight]

Shouldn't a discovery of bodies of this number (and this recent - allegedly) get the attention of international media? Where are they?

Instead all we've got is local articles with Thailand's finest already pointing fingers.

Another stink. Start getting your exit visas sorted out.