Builder Scam

[Benjie]

Why would anyone start work without receiving a deposit? It would just mean they would be succeptable to not being paid and a client who can't afford a deposit is someone who can't afford the work. Choose a reputable company is surely the simplest solution.

I did jobs for other people in Europe for over 20 years until last year. I never asked for any payment in advance, even when ordering expensive equipment for them. Many of them I worked for at a distance, and many I never even met as they lived in other countries.

In that time I must have had getting on for 2000 customers. They all paid, and only one ever ripped me off, and that wasn't for much at all, just about 50% of the labour part of the bill. So I didn't really lose anything, just worked for less than normal. Put it down to karma or whatever: I've certainly never lost any sleep over it and in all that time have never felt the need to ask for a deposit.

Interestingly, since being in Thailand, I have been ripped-off twice in under one year by farangs who "work" here, both with "reputable" companies. Luckily in each case it amounted to under 2000Baht, which, I suppose, just goes to show just how small the brains are of farangs who have to work here. Had they had a bit more imagination they might have got something worth having out of me.

I don't lose any sleep over that either (2000B may be a big deal to them, but not to me), but I have learnt not to trust any farang in Thailand, and as of now I wouldn't give any of them 1 satang, or offer any help at all to them, or trust them in any way. Nasty, dishonest, grasping lot they are.

Sounds lucky rather than professional.

[surayu]

^the OP hasn't even said whether the builder was a Thai or a Farang!

It was a farang and if it wasn't then it was a thai being confused by a farang, as the BiB teachs, "thai people don't do those things"

Sorry i joined the "other side" for a moment just to see how does it feels, well, it was sanook, so i am going to spend another few minutes like that, let's see, i need a drink, but i am a farang! so i cannot trust myself or my feelings, so i will eat instead, next time i believe i will have to go to the left on the road i will surely go to the right instead

So, how does a farang having these way to see things, can cope with itself while is in Thailand for whatever reasons?

[Darrel]

Sounds lucky rather than professional.

Luck? Only of geography.

Many farangs living and working here just aren't very decent people, that's all. In some other places people are still perfectly decent. My clients came from such places. I wasn't the only person working like that, in fact it was the norm not to ask for money up front.

As for not being professional, is it now "professional" to have to distrust people?

I suppose that here, it is, and that's another reason why I'm delighted to be retired and not having to do business with anyone here.

[Benjie]

Sounds lucky rather than professional.

Luck? Only of geography.

Many farangs living and working here just aren't very decent people, that's all. In some other places people are still perfectly decent. My clients came from such places. I wasn't the only person working like that, in fact it was the norm not to ask for money up front.

As for not being professional, is it now "professional" to have to distrust people?

I suppose that here, it is, and that's another reason why I'm delighted to be retired and not having to do business with anyone here.

Still sounds lucky, 2,000 clients who you have bought equipment for without any money upfront and none of them change their mind, find it cheaper elsewhere, decide against it or simply find themselves in a position where they cant go ahead or their circumstances change etc... I'm only speculating since I don't know what business you were in but for some business people it would only take 1 or 2 clients to change their mind for whatever reason after they have made a purchase without a deposit to put them out of business. It's probably a major reason for cashflow problems and the majority of new businesses going under so quickly.

[Darrel]

You misunderstand.

Several people changed their minds and decided to do things a different way, but that was never a problem as those items were from stock. They still paid for my time and other work done and/or other parts. When items were ordered specially, the clients never tried to back out of it as they always wanted the items/work done and there was no one else around likely to do it better or cheaper or quicker.

But that isn't the point. The subject of this thread is actual scams; ie deliberately not paying for what you have received, or deliberately not providing what has been paid for, or some other trickery that involves separating people from their money without cause. This only happened once in 20 years to me. Here it seems to be a daily occurrence and has happened twice to me in less than a year.

This seems quite remarkable.

[Tokay]

The subject of this thread is actual scams; ie deliberately not paying for what you have received, or deliberately not providing what has been paid for, or some other trickery that involves separating people from their money without cause. This only happened once in 20 years to me. Here it seems to be a daily occurrence and has happened twice to me in less than a year.

This seems quite remarkable.

It's not just with builders. It's with everything. It is the no thinking / no consequences / mai pen rai attitude. Many of them just act without giving any thought to what they are doing. Like cashiers who just steal all the money on camera, knowing there is a camera. Or running red lights at full speed without even looking, baby sitting in their lap. Robbing a gold shop inside a mall with no mask on knowing there are cameras everywhere and an escape would be difficult. Driving the wrong way down the road at full speed, at night, with no lights on. An honest builder will throw away a 10 year relationship and steal 2000b and vanish. The list is endless. Foreigners do it too.

Many of them just "DO" and don't think about it one way or the other. I suppose you could say they are in the moment at all times.

"Up to me" I think is the term that comes to mind. And yes, it is remarkable.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Tokay

[rayong09]

We was recommended a builder from a large builders merchants on Sukamvit road. He turned out to be the lowest of low scum bag piece of crap I have ever had the misfortune to come across.

Excuses why the work was taking so long so unbelievably outrageous that you almost had to laugh when being told them. One time he said the workers had gone back to the village and he had to go back there to "catch them all" and put them in the back of the truck but wasn't easy because they would jump out again, hahahah this guy was a real comedian.

After 5 months I had enough of it, I wanted it finished and for him to f-k right off out my life so we called for a meeting and told him we had some very good news. We said my Thai wife had just inherited a rai of land in central Pattaya and wanted to build a hotel on the land and could he arrange for this to be built for us, we have 3 million baht for the job and was that enough?

He fell for it hook line and sinker, all work was completed on our house, the extension, windows, tiles throughout, beautiful teak doors it really looked the nuts when done.

It gave me the utmost pleasure to pay him the final payment and tell him we would "be in touch" about the hotel being built and off he went with a big greedy smile, hahaha.

[PattayaParent]

We was recommended a builder from a large builders merchants on Sukamvit road. He turned out to be the lowest of low scum bag piece of crap I have ever had the misfortune to come across.

The builders merchants brother by any chance?

[Darrel]

One time he said the workers had gone back to the village and he had to go back there to "catch them all" and put them in the back of the truck but wasn't easy because they would jump out again, ......

Made me laugh.

[Dag]

I have learnt not to trust any farang in Thailand, and as of now I wouldn't give any of them 1 satang, or offer any help at all to them, or trust them in any way. Nasty, dishonest, grasping lot they are.

You must to be thai?

So far i only got scammed by 1 farang, he was (is) a sponsor and have a big company, probably the biggest of his kind in Thailand, so it was a bit my fault to trust these people and give them money in advance, i reported the story at the time and it's still visible on the forum.

Certainly i am in no way going to consider all americans being cheats, because of this bad apple, it was really disappointing and even upsetting, however he got his karma back, because apart from the big part of the job they lost from me (i only gave them a small job to start with as i had never tryied their services before) i also had many people interested in his "products" which have been happily re-directed to other offers and are currently still in business (...not counting the casual requests for informations on them, for which i don't know how they ended up)

People with a western's education should know better than these little cheats in the end backfire much more then the little earning they get on the spot, however, someone seems addicted to this way to live.....

Right, got to go out now, i will not be able to reply to any messages till tomorrow evening, enjoy your day everyones

Big fellow was he....not wanting for a meal.....??

[eljeque]

I sued my builder and won, and collected, but it did take a while.

I suggest that you do not do this, but instead, have your lawyer make sure that he can find a way to make it a criminal suit.

If a builder does not finish the project, or a portion of it which he has been paid for, it is civil, not criminal.

If you builder is given a deposit, and then just puts a few thousand baht worth of effort into the job, it is civil, not criminal.

If on the other hand, your builder does nothing, or does not begin a portion of the contract which he has been paid for, then you can try criminal and go to the police.

You have to show your appreciation for the policemen's efforts. $$$ from the beginning.

The police will send the builder a total of three letters, registered, return receipt.

If the builder does not respond to any of them, then they will arrest him. Really, they will. Simply stay in contact and always show your appreciation.

You can use a lawyer to help with this or not. If you do, he must follow your instructions that you are going the police route, and will use the public prosecutor's office, not the civil court route.

You will need to pay your lawyer either way, to keep him sweet, as he does not simply want to get the ball rolling for the police instead of the civil route, which is where he would earn his 25,000. So, he will need his 25,000 either way, unless you are able to convince him to research the laws for the police to show them where the builder broke a criminal law.

After you meet the builder at the police station, then if he cannot explain his way out of it, he should post a bond of the value of the debt. Then, the papers will go up the chain of command in the police station, and then a board will review them. From there, a few months later, they will go to the public prosecutor, which will be another 6 - 10 months before it makes court.

Please feel free to message me here.

[rayongchelsea]

I sued my builder and won, and collected, but it did take a while.

I suggest that you do not do this, but instead, have your lawyer make sure that he can find a way to make it a criminal suit.

If a builder does not finish the project, or a portion of it which he has been paid for, it is civil, not criminal.

If you builder is given a deposit, and then just puts a few thousand baht worth of effort into the job, it is civil, not criminal.

If on the other hand, your builder does nothing, or does not begin a portion of the contract which he has been paid for, then you can try criminal and go to the police.

You have to show your appreciation for the policemen's efforts. $$ from the beginning.

The police will send the builder a total of three letters, registered, return receipt.

If the builder does not respond to any of them, then they will arrest him. Really, they will. Simply stay in contact and always show your appreciation.

You can use a lawyer to help with this or not. If you do, he must follow your instructions that you are going the police route, and will use the public prosecutor's office, not the civil court route.

You will need to pay your lawyer either way, to keep him sweet, as he does not simply want to get the ball rolling for the police instead of the civil route, which is where he would earn his 25,000. So, he will need his 25,000 either way, unless you are able to convince him to research the laws for the police to show them where the builder broke a criminal law.

After you meet the builder at the police station, then if he cannot explain his way out of it, he should post a bond of the value of the debt. Then, the papers will go up the chain of command in the police station, and then a board will review them. From there, a few months later, they will go to the public prosecutor, which will be another 6 - 10 months before it makes court.

Please feel free to message me here.

thank you for a very informative post.

I have a problem with a farang interior designer. I paid up front, didnt even start within the agreed time frame, eventually did some poor stuff after 6 months. I also discovered that he issued a fake invoice representing a fake company. You bring up an important issue as i always thought contract law was civil and have been advised accordingly. Do you know if the fact that this individual represented himself incorrectly and accordingly issued a fake invoice is a criminal offense ( as no valid contract). I will need to ask my lawyer about this but i would like to have some idea beforehand.

Thanks

[PattayaParent]

Big fellow was he....not wanting for a meal.....??

Gareth?

[David006]

I sued my builder and won, and collected, but it did take a while.

I suggest that you do not do this, but instead, have your lawyer make sure that he can find a way to make it a criminal suit.

If a builder does not finish the project, or a portion of it which he has been paid for, it is civil, not criminal.

If you builder is given a deposit, and then just puts a few thousand baht worth of effort into the job, it is civil, not criminal.

If on the other hand, your builder does nothing, or does not begin a portion of the contract which he has been paid for, then you can try criminal and go to the police.

You have to show your appreciation for the policemen's efforts. $$$ from the beginning.

The police will send the builder a total of three letters, registered, return receipt.

If the builder does not respond to any of them, then they will arrest him. Really, they will. Simply stay in contact and always show your appreciation.

You can use a lawyer to help with this or not. If you do, he must follow your instructions that you are going the police route, and will use the public prosecutor's office, not the civil court route.

You will need to pay your lawyer either way, to keep him sweet, as he does not simply want to get the ball rolling for the police instead of the civil route, which is where he would earn his 25,000. So, he will need his 25,000 either way, unless you are able to convince him to research the laws for the police to show them where the builder broke a criminal law.

After you meet the builder at the police station, then if he cannot explain his way out of it, he should post a bond of the value of the debt. Then, the papers will go up the chain of command in the police station, and then a board will review them. From there, a few months later, they will go to the public prosecutor, which will be another 6 - 10 months before it makes court.

Please feel free to message me here.

Excellent....Your post should be included on all "I am gonna build a house" forums

Biggest problem of course is that the scammers do a "runner"

so in short...eat it up and move on if you can afford to.

...a couple of hundred grand "dept" would be eaten up in short order it would seem, plus ones health and psychological welfare down the toilet...such is life..

[eljeque]

Please feel free to PM me; I live in Pattaya, and can call you. If you are here I can meet you and even introduce you to my lawyer who can let you know whether or not you can go the criminal route.

I would be very happy to help.

If the scammer is a foreigner, I think you can at least get the police to call him in one time, and when you show the receipts from a fake company, push the foreigner to provice documents that the company really exists, plus that his company really exists, and most import, that he has a work permit to act as an interior designer.

You are not in as bad shape as you think. It is no easy ride, but as he is a foreigner, it sounds a lot better than it did in the beginning.

Few things in life have aged me, and building a house is one of them, not just the first builder who did the runner, but even using his lead worker to finish the project, simply looking over everything that they did was exhausting.

[eljeque]

If you would like to meet my lawyer, let me know and I will arrange it.

The police act more readily when foreigners are the culprits.