Society Prejudiced Against The Uneducated Poor, Seminar Hears

[Thakkar]

The offspring of rich children IMHO are driven by constant planned activities, tutors and such. The poor kids play and smoke and drink.

A couple of times I tried to explain this to some of the locals at the lower end of the income/education spectrum and for the most part they cannot understand the concept. Their comment is usually something like, "Kids need to have fun." Very few seem to have the idea about having the kids staying busy with scheduled activities to keep them on the right path.

TheWalkingMan

A good amount of day-dreaming, moping and general lolling about is not only desirable, but essential to healthy intellectual and emotional development. Since this is naturally a default state for kids, parents don't need to encourage it in their kids but do need to stay out of their hair a lot of the time, while being there for them when they need you.

I think good parenting is as much about knowing what not to do as about knowing what to do.

T

[changraider]

The most uneducated and poorly-mannered people I have met in Thailand are members of Thai Visa. And according to the 2011 TV survey many of them are also the financially poorest.

[OzMick]

If the theme of the OP is correct and every person in a democracy should have a vote and their choice respected, then perhaps we need a new set of checks and balances in place. Democracy is designed to work with an informed populace who can make rational choices for the future of their country.

In Thailand at the moment, a large percentage of the population is uneducated, often ill- or mis-informed, and on the lower economic rungs of society which leads them to vote for vote-buying politicians offering populist policies which offer quick gratification. Ill-equipped to know that these policies are unrealistic, unfunded, and may well do harm to the country in the long run, the populace accepts them at face value, which leads us to the situation we have now.

The government is stuck with their campaign promises. At best they may cause economic damage. At worst, they could burst a dam of resentment, much of which they agitated to destabilise the previous government, that will do huge damage to the country.

Checks and balances - this is difficult because of the nature of the electorate. Some form of censorship to prevent the broadcasting of deliberate political lies - but who decides what is a lie? Political parties being forced to reveal policies for costing and academic scrutiny - to what avail if the people can't understand the reasoning behind criticism, and the propaganda machine tells you that it will make you rich. In short, how do you keep politicians honest?

The long term answer of course is education of the population. It seems it is not an objective of this government.

[Crushdepth]

These red shirts sound rather Maoist. Equality means equal opportunity, which is a great thing, not equal reality or results. It's not realistic to brainwash people into thinking a street sweeper and a brain surgeon are the same.

Several red leaders are ex-communists.

[atyclb]

perhaps paying the street sweeper a working wage that allows him to take care of his family would be a good start

As interesting as that sounds that is the basis of socialism or communism and that is what is wrecking the Western economies right now. One of the reasons that America is no longer the steel producing king of the world was 13 weeks of vacation per year for steelworkers. Unions started with a minimum wage and soon accelerated to include benefits that eventually broke the industry.

Get the streets cleaned for the wage that people will do the job. If Thais don't want to clean them then Burmese will.

If you want to rise on the social ladder guarantee education for everyone and let them work their way up. There are many good jobs available for educated people who can actually add and subtract and show up for work on a regular basis.

Sooner or later everyone will realize it is a global economy. Hard work and education will be the eventual keys to success. Let the market work, regulation rarely works. Don't bail out the bankers and don't subsidize the garbage workers. Let them both enjoy the fruits of their labor.

you are so wrong - seems to me you are a product of capitalist brain washing. But it's not your fault having been bombarded by a media - that's owned and controlled by who - oh yes the capitalists who have failed us miserably - but they don'yt have to worry that they have destroyed the world economy for pure greed commiting the fraud of the century for which no one goes to jail in the US - they are already filthy rich.

Why do you think the "happiest" people - and the "happiness index" confirms that every year - live in countries like Denmark, Sweden and others with a "social market economy" - because the everage Joe does not want riches - all he wants is a fairly normal education, a fairly normal life - to take care of his loved ones and to go to bed at night not thinking about how he will struggle tomorrow to provide for his family and survive another day!

Good to hear someone say it. Thank you

Hmmm, sure seems the only thing the average Joe's of Denmark and Sweden want to do is Live In Pattaya.

[atyclb]

perhaps paying the street sweeper a working wage that allows him to take care of his family would be a good start

"Now lords will rule and the poor will toil

And tear their hands as they tear the soil

But a day will come in this dawning age

When an honest man sees an honest wage"

Van Diemens Land

[TAWP]

Some parents are making their young children look down on poor people like street sweepers by inculcating the idea that they should study hard in order to avoid becoming a street sweeper, said red-shirt co-leader and Pheu Thai MP Wiphuthalang Phattanaphumthai. "They make children hate street sweepers from early childhood. But how can Bangkok survive if all street sweepers stop working for a day?"

We would survive just fine if the less educated people stopped throwing their garbage everywhere.

That is right, I said it.

Back home we have no manual street-sweepers and people in general don't litter much.

Here I see motocy drivers, taxi-drivers and everyone of lower income levels throw their garbage, including full bags directly from their houses, where-ever they feel like, including other peoples yards (outside the fence). They think it is a SEP - Someone Else's Problem - once it leaves their hands.

[TAWP]

perhaps paying the street sweeper a working wage that allows him to take care of his family would be a good start

As interesting as that sounds that is the basis of socialism or communism and that is what is wrecking the Western economies right now. One of the reasons that America is no longer the steel producing king of the world was 13 weeks of vacation per year for steelworkers. Unions started with a minimum wage and soon accelerated to include benefits that eventually broke the industry.

Get the streets cleaned for the wage that people will do the job. If Thais don't want to clean them then Burmese will.

If you want to rise on the social ladder guarantee education for everyone and let them work their way up. There are many good jobs available for educated people who can actually add and subtract and show up for work on a regular basis.

Sooner or later everyone will realize it is a global economy. Hard work and education will be the eventual keys to success. Let the market work, regulation rarely works. Don't bail out the bankers and don't subsidize the garbage workers. Let them both enjoy the fruits of their labor.

you are so wrong - seems to me you are a product of capitalist brain washing. But it's not your fault having been bombarded by a media - that's owned and controlled by who - oh yes the capitalists who have failed us miserably - but they don'yt have to worry that they have destroyed the world economy for pure greed commiting the fraud of the century for which no one goes to jail in the US - they are already filthy rich.

Why do you think the "happiest" people - and the "happiness index" confirms that every year - live in countries like Denmark, Sweden and others with a "social market economy" - because the everage Joe does not want riches - all he wants is a fairly normal education, a fairly normal life - to take care of his loved ones and to go to bed at night not thinking about how he will struggle tomorrow to provide for his family and survive another day!

Nonsense, if you think living 80 year under socialist rule made people happy then you are severely deluded.

There is a reason we have as of late voted the socialists out of power in several elections in a row - or why I and several of my countrymen has no problem with leaving and living elsewhere with no feeling or need to move back.

[adder]

I think that it is world wide.

Not exactly.

In the USA, Switzerland and most of Europe, at birth, in theory I agree, everybody is equal.

It's in theory of course but it already makes a difference in people mind

The USA now that is funny

[Thakkar]

[<snip>

Here I see motocy drivers, taxi-drivers and everyone of lower income levels throw their garbage, including full bags directly from their houses, where-ever they feel like, including other peoples yards (outside the fence). They think it is a SEP - Someone Else's Problem - once it leaves their hands.

This is wrong and inexcusable. But even more pernicious are the rich doing things like driving in monster SUV's whose production and use create more pollution, waste and environmental degradation than a poor person can do in an entire lifetime. The damage from the SUV (and the rich person's entire lifestyle thus embodied) is not as immediately visible, so suck on that you poors!

The poor at least have the fig leaf excuse of being uneducated. What's the educated rich guy's excuse?

Edited August 21, 2011 by Thakkar

[TAWP]

[<snip>

Here I see motocy drivers, taxi-drivers and everyone of lower income levels throw their garbage, including full bags directly from their houses, where-ever they feel like, including other peoples yards (outside the fence). They think it is a SEP - Someone Else's Problem - once it leaves their hands.

This is wrong and inexcusable. But even more pernicious are the rich doing things like driving in monster SUV's whose production and use create more pollution, waste and environmental degradation than a poor person can do in an entire lifetime. The damage from the SUV (and the rich person's entire lifestyle thus embodied) is not as immediately visible, so suck on that you poors!

The poor at least have the fig leaf excuse of being uneducated. What's the educated rich guy's excuse?

If you think SUVs pollute more than old cars from the -70is - that hippies seem to like to drive - then perhaps you need to check the exhaustion charts again.

An SUV might be over-sized etc, but they are more common to be bought in numbers in the US than here. Most people I know with money buy Merc or above...unless they are farangs.

[atyclb]

[<snip>

Here I see motocy drivers, taxi-drivers and everyone of lower income levels throw their garbage, including full bags directly from their houses, where-ever they feel like, including other peoples yards (outside the fence). They think it is a SEP - Someone Else's Problem - once it leaves their hands.

This is wrong and inexcusable. But even more pernicious are the rich doing things like driving in monster SUV's whose production and use create more pollution, waste and environmental degradation than a poor person can do in an entire lifetime. The damage from the SUV (and the rich person's entire lifestyle thus embodied) is not as immediately visible, so suck on that you poors!

The poor at least have the fig leaf excuse of being uneducated. What's the educated rich guy's excuse?

At KFC over time I have seen all levels of Thai society eating fried chicken. Seems they believe KFC is high class food so I have yet to see a Thai not use a knife and fork, albeit struggle to eat. Must demonstrate a polite and upscale image while eating a perceived upscale food.

I have very very rarely seen any Thai show the polite courtesy of dumping their tray disposables in the trash and leaving it on the top of bin. When given the opportunity, even the poor will dump on the poor.

[atyclb]

If the theme of the OP is correct and every person in a democracy should have a vote and their choice respected, then perhaps we need a new set of checks and balances in place. Democracy is designed to work with an informed populace who can make rational choices for the future of their country.

In Thailand at the moment, a large percentage of the population is uneducated, often ill- or mis-informed, and on the lower economic rungs of society which leads them to vote for vote-buying politicians offering populist policies which offer quick gratification. Ill-equipped to know that these policies are unrealistic, unfunded, and may well do harm to the country in the long run, the populace accepts them at face value, which leads us to the situation we have now.

The government is stuck with their campaign promises. At best they may cause economic damage. At worst, they could burst a dam of resentment, much of which they agitated to destabilise the previous government, that will do huge damage to the country.

Checks and balances - this is difficult because of the nature of the electorate. Some form of censorship to prevent the broadcasting of deliberate political lies - but who decides what is a lie? Political parties being forced to reveal policies for costing and academic scrutiny - to what avail if the people can't understand the reasoning behind criticism, and the propaganda machine tells you that it will make you rich. In short, how do you keep politicians honest?

The long term answer of course is education of the population. It seems it is not an objective of this government.

A very excellent post.

If I may add something, there is also the "frustration factor" in that some educated people also supported YL and not because of vote buying.

[anterian]

n England I have a friend, retired now, but he was a local council worker, an unskilled Irishman paid a minimum wage to drive a council truck and repair potholes. But he kept going on courses, chainsaw operative, pneumatic drill operative, deicing and road gritting techniques, at the end of each course he received a certificate, plus an increase in salary.

The point I am making is that he was actively encouraged by his employers, the Council, to improve his skills and status and income, he had pride in his job and in his certificates. This is what Thailand needs to do.

[animatic]

I think that it is world wide.

Not exactly.

In the USA, Switzerland and most of Europe, at birth, in theory I agree, everybody is equal.

It's in theory of course but it already makes a difference in people mind

Sorry to burst your bubble of supposition there is still too much of this in USA and Europe, just not as much as here. Still a real presences in many corners of those areas. Born to uneducated parents you get the chance to become better educated, but if you don't then there is still a looking down on by many. Sad, but this is part of human social interactions. No matter what amount of education is attained, some never seem to get smart enough not to look down on others.

Edited August 21, 2011 by animatic

[animatic]

It's somewhat amazing that they needed a seminar of inteligencia to know this is so...

[anterian]

n England I have a friend, retired now, but he was a local council worker, an unskilled Irishman paid a minimum wage to drive a council truck and repair potholes. But he kept going on courses, chainsaw operative, pneumatic drill operative, deicing and road gritting techniques, at the end of each course he received a certificate, plus an increase in salary.

The point I am making is that he was actively encouraged by his employers, the Council, to improve his skills and status and income, he had pride in his job and in his certificates. This is what Thailand needs to do.

[Thakkar]

[<snip>

Here I see motocy drivers, taxi-drivers and everyone of lower income levels throw their garbage, including full bags directly from their houses, where-ever they feel like, including other peoples yards (outside the fence). They think it is a SEP - Someone Else's Problem - once it leaves their hands.

This is wrong and inexcusable. But even more pernicious are the rich doing things like driving in monster SUV's whose production and use create more pollution, waste and environmental degradation than a poor person can do in an entire lifetime. The damage from the SUV (and the rich person's entire lifestyle thus embodied) is not as immediately visible, so suck on that you poors!

The poor at least have the fig leaf excuse of being uneducated. What's the educated rich guy's excuse?

If you think SUVs pollute more than old cars from the -70is - that hippies seem to like to drive - then perhaps you need to check the exhaustion charts again.

I'm not clear as to your point. Wouldn't it be better if life style choices, especially by people who should know better, were made on the basis of which was least damaging as opposed to just less damaging?

An SUV might be over-sized etc, but they are more common to be bought in numbers in the US than here. Most people I know with money buy Merc or above...unless they are farangs.

We all live on the same planet. Damaging the "US environment" is just as inexcusable as damaging the "Thai environment".

[atyclb]

"Children are being 'taught to acquire an elitist approach against the poor'

Bias in society against poor people with low education poses a major barrier for the acceptance of equal political rights in Thailand, a symposium concluded yesterday"

Street Sweeper Bias

Hmmm, someone I know busted his butt in university and medical college as he dreaded the option of becoming an "English teacher"

Edited August 21, 2011 by atyclb

[Bakseedaa]

I think that it is world wide.

Not exactly.

In the USA, Switzerland and most of Europe, at birth, in theory I agree, everybody is equal.

It's in theory of course but it already makes a difference in people mind

everyone is equal at birth , unless their parents are stupid and poor, lazy and uneducated, black or dark skinned ... of course society is prejudiced against those peoples.. do you want them living next door to you..?

[tlansford]

perhaps paying the street sweeper a working wage that allows him to take care of his family would be a good start

As interesting as that sounds that is the basis of socialism or communism and that is what is wrecking the Western economies right now. One of the reasons that America is no longer the steel producing king of the world was 13 weeks of vacation per year for steelworkers. Unions started with a minimum wage and soon accelerated to include benefits that eventually broke the industry.

Get the streets cleaned for the wage that people will do the job. If Thais don't want to clean them then Burmese will.

If you want to rise on the social ladder guarantee education for everyone and let them work their way up. There are many good jobs available for educated people who can actually add and subtract and show up for work on a regular basis.

Sooner or later everyone will realize it is a global economy. Hard work and education will be the eventual keys to success. Let the market work, regulation rarely works. Don't bail out the bankers and don't subsidize the garbage workers. Let them both enjoy the fruits of their labor.

what garbage i hope you have someone to clean this crap up for you

Your reply is a flame. It is impolite and rude. If you don't agree with me, no problem but have the courtesy to tell us all why.

well, KerryK, I guess it is because your comments are just plain wrong. Granted that it is also your opinion and you have a right to that. On the other hand, that fact that your statement is wrong is not an opinion.

First - a living wage is not the basis of communism. Neither is it the basis of socialism.

A living wage is, however, humane.

Secondly, steel production left the USA because of very different reasons. These are the same reasons that jobs continue to go to other countries today. It has NOTHING to do with vacation or even the nominal wages. It has everything to do with the fact that capital is mobile and people are not. It has everything to do with lack of worker protections, lack of environmental protections, and lack of human rights in other parts of the world. It has to do with examples such as this one - in Thailand they want to RAISE the minimum wage to a whopping $10 / day - these are market imbalances that do not even protect highly skilled engineers in the USA today as their jobs started long ago to go to Taiwan, then India and China.

And finally, the market doesn't work without regulation and it never has - there is no such thing as a "free market" and there never was. All markets are regulated, it is just a question of how the market is regulated and (for some of us) a question of whether or not the market is regulated in a way that is fair.

Best regards,

Tom

[RickBradford]

Well, Chinese society has been prejudiced against the stupid, the lazy, uneducated and poor for millennia. It seems to be the secret of their success -- it creates pressure to move up socially through education and hard work

Every time they have let the underclasses run things, they usually end up killing tens of millions of their own citizens (the Great Chinese Famine, for example, between 36m and 45m starved) or finding other ingenious ways (the Cultural Revolution) to send their country toppling backwards.

When success is rewarded and failure penalised, you get growth and endeavour; when success is penalised and failure rewarded, you get modern Britain.

Everyone needs to be given the opportunity to better themselves, and then be left to get on with it (or not)

[mccw]

Of course it has nothing to do with the Thai soap operas having everyone in a minor job or the criminals having dark skin and a northern accent.

With the heroes having fair skin. With manners and actions befitting spoilt brats.

Too true Chang.... way too true. Sad isn't it????

Yet they all desperately want to be that which they despise

[parryg]

Some of you are really missing the point with this one, PTP are merely on the side of the working class, they have no intention of keeping them down, they are simply defending the one man - one vote policy, whereas the elite if they had their way would take away the poor villagers' right to vote and only allow those with a degree to vote, thereby increasing their chance of winning a general election. PTP are pointing out that we are all valuable whether we sweep roads or perform brain surgery, and hi-so children should not look down on the working class.

It is the elite that are more likely to burn books and abolish education for the poor in an attempt to keep them in their place, Thailand is society driven so much that they (The elite) believe if they educate the poor and pay them a proper days wage, the elites' bank balance will dwindle, the divide gap will shrink and the elite will no longer look so hi-so - AND THEY DON'T WANT THAT!!

[Thakkar]

[<snip>

Here I see motocy drivers, taxi-drivers and everyone of lower income levels throw their garbage, including full bags directly from their houses, where-ever they feel like, including other peoples yards (outside the fence). They think it is a SEP - Someone Else's Problem - once it leaves their hands.

This is wrong and inexcusable. But even more pernicious are the rich doing things like driving in monster SUV's whose production and use create more pollution, waste and environmental degradation than a poor person can do in an entire lifetime. The damage from the SUV (and the rich person's entire lifestyle thus embodied) is not as immediately visible, so suck on that you poors!

The poor at least have the fig leaf excuse of being uneducated. What's the educated rich guy's excuse?

At KFC over time I have seen all levels of Thai society eating fried chicken. Seems they believe KFC is high class food so I have yet to see a Thai not use a knife and fork, albeit struggle to eat. Must demonstrate a polite and upscale image while eating a perceived upscale food.

I have very very rarely seen any Thai show the polite courtesy of dumping their tray disposables in the trash and leaving it on the top of bin. When given the opportunity, even the poor will dump on the poor.

Firstly, why are you spending so much time at KFC?

On not clearing the tables: With respect, perhaps there is some backwards thinking on your part.

This is just conjecture on my part, but here's what I think:

In the West, labor is expensive and Westerners have been subtly trained by corporations to clear the tables at, what in the West, are cheap joints, as a condition for the bargain-priced foods. In Thailand, KFC is a 'classy' place—price-wise at least. If patrons aren't expected to clear up at 40 baht fried rice places, why would they feel compelled to clear up after an 80 baht KFC meal? To my mind, they are being entirely rational and it's not a case of 'the poor dumping on the poor' at all.

An aside: there are better places than KFC to people watch, though I confess that the scents at KFC can be enticing.

T

[tlansford]

I feel that it is interesting that some people on the forum are apparently doing their best to pretend that they really don't understand the points raised in this op-ed.

That said, the 2 items that stand out to me are

1) the point about universal suffrage, and

2) the lese majeste laws

Along with the 3rd item where the TV star pointed out the perspective of the far-right part of the Thai society.

The points about voting rights and lese majeste are pertinent issues.

"You are elite or serf not by birth but from your consciousness. It is a threat to the democratic system," he said, at the symposium on myths about lowly educated poor Thais being stupid and a drag on Thai society.

The meeting was organised by Thailand Mirror, a liberal group of red shirts, at the October 14 Monument. The event comes at a time when some formally educated Thais who are disappointed by the latest general election results began asking whether Thailand should continue to accept the concept of universal suffrage or not.

Attachai Anantamaek, former TV star and an active red-shirt member, said those who looked down on poor and less educated people were "extreme right wing conservative". He said society should recognise that those with higher educational qualification are not necessarily smarter, as others could also learn to be wise through their life experience and from discussing and deliberating issues with others.

The panel also discussed the role of lese majeste law in hampering freedom of political speech and concluded that more efforts were needed to push for the amendment if not for the abolition of the law so people can discuss real politics openly.

[kerryk]

well, KerryK, I guess it is because your comments are just plain wrong. Granted that it is also your opinion and you have a right to that. On the other hand, that fact that your statement is wrong is not an opinion.

First - a living wage is not the basis of communism. Neither is it the basis of socialism.

A living wage is, however, humane.

Secondly, steel production left the USA because of very different reasons. These are the same reasons that jobs continue to go to other countries today. It has NOTHING to do with vacation or even the nominal wages. It has everything to do with the fact that capital is mobile and people are not. It has everything to do with lack of worker protections, lack of environmental protections, and lack of human rights in other parts of the world. It has to do with examples such as this one - in Thailand they want to RAISE the minimum wage to a whopping $10 / day - these are market imbalances that do not even protect highly skilled engineers in the USA today as their jobs started long ago to go to Taiwan, then India and China.

And finally, the market doesn't work without regulation and it never has - there is no such thing as a "free market" and there never was. All markets are regulated, it is just a question of how the market is regulated and (for some of us) a question of whether or not the market is regulated in a way that is fair.

Best regards,

Tom

Thanks for the nice reply. My point was by altering the minimum wage you are not really changing anything. You are just taking from the rich to give to the poor. This eventually upsets the rich and they raise the prices. Minimum wage legislation taken to its logical conclusion is to pay everyone based on humanity rather than performance. When the chief Engineer has the same standard of living as the factory sweeper the society rebels. If the minimum want was static it would work but the poor keep wanting more, like cell phones, fans and TV. And tomorrow who knows what they may think is necessary to basic living necessities. Does health care include access to an MRI or artificial heart or penis implants? Do you know?

As far as the steel thing, if the US had illegally guarded it patents, and spent the money to rebuild Pittsburgh instead of Japan after WWII it still might have the business even though the wages and vacations were so high.

In the end analysis you can socially engineer all you want but the only real advance you can give the poor that amounts to anything is education. Provide a quality education to all through college and let the lazy ones starve.

Some idiots may judge a society by how it treats animals I judge it by how it treats its children as far as free and quality education. Make room, board and tuition through college available to everyone and if they flunk out so be it.

[sfgiantfan]

I have lived in Thailand for only 6 years and have taught English conversation for 4 years in Both Bangkok and up country near Lampang.

Bangkok: I taught both English conversation and Drama to m1-3 12-14 year olds. My former students all came from upper middle class and wealthy backrounds. I found some of them to be outstanding students with well above average English conversation skills. Many of them after school attended English school and or had tutors. On the other hand most of them were spoiled, condesending brats, most had a ''I am better than you' attitude towards not only the western teachers but the Thai teachers as well. During parent teacher meetings many of the parent's held the same attiude and would not even consider the fact little ''lek'' could do anything wrong...bless her heart.

a few of my former students came in smelling like booze and cigarettes, And while i can't prove it I do suspect some of them had a yaa-baa problem as well.

Upcountry: English conversation skills are lacking and I would think 1-3 years behind those I taught in Bangkok..But most are charming, funny and very very polite. Some if not most come from poor farmer backrounds.

The parents helped me settle in and even let me borrow a motorcycle until I could purchase one of my own. They found me a place to live ( i did not want school govt housing) and gave me a extra bed for my kids.

After school these students don't have the time to take extra english courses as many help mom and dad with eithe the farm or store.

Yes many of the Dad's do drink but not as much as one might think. And while the students here lack academic skills they are for the most part years ahead of my former students when it comes to being decent caring human beings. One of reasons I stayed in Thailand 'it's the people silly' Thais are well known for being friendly caring people and I am glad at least in some part sof Thailand that tradition still exists.

i

[tlansford]

well, KerryK, I guess it is because your comments are just plain wrong. Granted that it is also your opinion and you have a right to that. On the other hand, that fact that your statement is wrong is not an opinion.

First - a living wage is not the basis of communism. Neither is it the basis of socialism.

A living wage is, however, humane.

Secondly, steel production left the USA because of very different reasons. These are the same reasons that jobs continue to go to other countries today. It has NOTHING to do with vacation or even the nominal wages. It has everything to do with the fact that capital is mobile and people are not. It has everything to do with lack of worker protections, lack of environmental protections, and lack of human rights in other parts of the world. It has to do with examples such as this one - in Thailand they want to RAISE the minimum wage to a whopping $10 / day - these are market imbalances that do not even protect highly skilled engineers in the USA today as their jobs started long ago to go to Taiwan, then India and China.

And finally, the market doesn't work without regulation and it never has - there is no such thing as a "free market" and there never was. All markets are regulated, it is just a question of how the market is regulated and (for some of us) a question of whether or not the market is regulated in a way that is fair.

Best regards,

Tom

Thanks for the nice reply. My point was by altering the minimum wage you are not really changing anything. You are just taking from the rich to give to the poor. This eventually upsets the rich and they raise the prices. Minimum wage legislation taken to its logical conclusion is to pay everyone based on humanity rather than performance. When the chief Engineer has the same standard of living as the factory sweeper the society rebels. If the minimum want was static it would work but the poor keep wanting more, like cell phones, fans and TV. And tomorrow who knows what they may think is necessary to basic living necessities. Does health care include access to an MRI or artificial heart or penis implants? Do you know?

As far as the steel thing, if the US had illegally guarded it patents, and spent the money to rebuild Pittsburgh instead of Japan after WWII it still might have the business even though the wages and vacations were so high.

In the end analysis you can socially engineer all you want but the only real advance you can give the poor that amounts to anything is education. Provide a quality education to all through college and let the lazy ones starve.

Some idiots may judge a society by how it treats animals I judge it by how it treats its children as far as free and quality education. Make room, board and tuition through college available to everyone and if they flunk out so be it.

Hi KerryK - well, I won't go back to the minimum wage item, because we probably won't agree there.

On the other hand, education is absolutely important. Studies have drilled-down on this data discovered, in fact, that it is the education of the girls and young women in a society which consistently drives the standard of living within a country. This has been verified in many studies.

As an American living in France, I shake my head over the fact that higher education for my niece in a local branch of a State university costs more per year than the tuition at a grande ecole in France. Not to mention that universities in France are usually free; eg : go to the French version of Purdue University (a top-flight engineering school for our foreign friends) and you will pay 0€.

I just visited a university in Bangkok, and although not at all expensive by American standards, it was obviously more expensive than universities in most of Europe and was truly expensive for a Thai person.

Anyway, education is critical, on the other hand, the point made in the seminar mentioned in this op-ed is that an education doesn't make you a better, more deserving member of society; nor does the inverse, being a person of little formal education, make you a less valuable member of society. I agree with that position.

[rubl]

Cut anything before the anyway. Check the original post

...

Anyway, education is critical, on the other hand, the point made in the seminar mentioned in this op-ed is that an education doesn't make you a better, more deserving member of society; nor does the inverse, being a person of little formal education, make you a less valuable member of society. I agree with that position.

Agreed, education is critical. Back in Europe my mother's further education was considered less important than that of her brothers who would have to work, earn a living, with girls just marrying, staying home taking care of the family. Only about 50 - 60 odd years ago. Thailand still shows similar attitudes. Will take a while to get over it. As a whole societies tend to be ultra conservative, even small changes may need forceful nudges. Keep pushing should be the motto !