Legendary British Farmer Joe Loses Water-Tight 30-Year Lease In Thailand

[webfact]

Farmer Joe loses water-tight 30-year lease in Thailand

Published by Andrew Drummond

His children are in government care in Britain and his land has all but already been gobbled up by his Thai wife.

Legendary turkey farmer Joe Stanyer, who used to supply Thailand’s best hotels with their Christmas bird, has now been told that the last patch of land he has in Hua Hin, which he acquired on a 30-year lease, was also obtained illegally.

This story could suspend one’s belief so much so that even social workers from Redbridge Council in Essex want to check it out.

And to do so, while Britain seems to be plummeting into a double-dip recession, they say they have announced that they are sending over a case officer to investigate.

They may be suspicious that 'Farmer Joe' far from being impoverished 'Farmer Joe' is making hay in Thailand, so social security sleuths are expected any day from the land of Wayne and Sharon.

Once Joe Stanyer, 58, was a prosperous business man. His turkeys sold every year under the ‘Farmer Joe’ brand in Bangkok and he continued to expand until the giant CP group, to cut a long story short, put him out of the running.

His wife left him and then sold most of the 22 rai turkey farm - bought in 2000 for 2 million Thai baht and held in her name - and did not pay him a penny. That left him with a small 6 rai patch of land on which he had built the family home. To safeguard this he took out a 30-year lease from his wife at a cost of 436,000 Thai baht.

But now his wife wants this land too and has taken him to court to prove successfully, it appears, that the lease he signed is void. Joe Stanley insists that another land-use clause was illegally added to the lease prior to the hearing.

Now Mr. Stanyer has had to sign a new lease, and pay up another 300,000 baht plus 12,000 baht each month for the 6 rai on which his only remaining... [more...]

Source: http://www.andrew-drummond.com/view-story.php?sid=431

-- andrew-drummond.com 2011-08-22

[KhunBJ]

Depressing .. but not unique ... actually always had the impression that farang was not allowed to be involved in any kind of farming or agricultural business in general

[bunnaag]

To whom it may concern:check your 30 year leases!

[Atoosa07]

why i am not surprised can't believe your wife your lawyer you local cops, so where do you stand in the land of smiles.......in a pile of s**t.....

pack your bags and go home at least you know what the law says and if your lawyer lies he will be diss-bared. I am sure the Thai lawyer will continue to work doing the same all to Thais or frangs

[houseinbkk]

Depressing .. but not unique ... actually always had the impression that farang was not allowed to be involved in any kind of farming or agricultural business in general

Be good if they were then you could get 2 litres of decent tasting milk for (1 pound) 49bht, just as you can in England.

[Humphrey Bear]

My take on some of the remarks :-

A foreigner cannot be an agricultural worker, but he can own a business (with the requisite Thai partners). So he should be OK there.

With the 'added' clause in his lease - should take a notarised photocopy of any legal document when it is signed (including the back of each page!)

To go up against a Thai business in the same field is asking for trouble - look at the way Chang took Carlsberg to the cleaners. And you're not as clever as Carlsberg, however bright you think yourself.

I went broke in Thailand - I'm slowly recovering in Vietnam. Much better place to be - apart from missing the sleaze.

[jackdawson]

i can't figure out who's the turkey in this story

and in today's other results it was thailand 1 and the UK 0

but look at it this way , at least the turkeys get a get out of jail free card

[rayinkrabi]

For what its worth..I recall being told (when I took my lease out here many years ago) that this was NOT legal between a married couple..so maybe this chap didn't do his homework in the first place? and then his comment that he didn't know what it was he was signing? sorry, but sounds like he was a bit naive or 'slack' to say the lease (pun intended).

[Oliver Reed]

Children back home in England in government care?..Britain heading for double dip recession?..Thanks to amongst others, people like farmer Joe who shirk their responsibilities and pile them on to the over burdened welfare state..Karma for you Joe, as a farmer, you are now reaping what you sow...no pun intended

[yom07]

To whom it may concern:check your 30 year leases!

To whom it may concern: check your wife !

[tragickingdom]

One cannot win from the Mafia. Charoen Pokhand, major sponsor of the Democrat Party and Yellow Shirt and partly to blame for the Southern Unrest is in bed with criminals like Suthep. Though investing themselves heavily abroad these people are anti competitive and greedy. This guy simply joins the large army of poor Thai farmers and People who have lost their land and access to the sea because of CP. I wonder however how this man could run a farm in the first place. Farming is one of those professions that foreigners are officially not allowed to do. Maybe he lost his mojo when he lost his money and could no longer pay the police, prosecutors and upstanding Thai judges?

Thailand is a good country to retire. If you like to do business, opt for Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam or even China. You might have a tiny chance that you will find the law on your side there.

[denishuahin]

I'm not a Lawyer but i think this a far better agreement, much cheaper to set up and it's for your life.

Usufruct Agreements in Thailand

Usufruct contracts are governed by sections 1417 to 1428 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand. A usufruct is a right granted by the owner(s) of the land/house in favor of a usufructuary whereby this person has the right to possess, use and enjoy the benefits of an immovable property (section 1417 CCCT). The usufructuary has the right to manage the property (sect 1414 CCCT). It can be on a piece of land, on a house or on both of them.

[Skorz]

I'm not a Lawyer but i think this a far better agreement, much cheaper to set up and it's for your life.

Usufruct Agreements in Thailand

Usufruct contracts are governed by sections 1417 to 1428 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand. A usufruct is a right granted by the owner(s) of the land/house in favor of a usufructuary whereby this person has the right to possess, use and enjoy the benefits of an immovable property (section 1417 CCCT). The usufructuary has the right to manage the property (sect 1414 CCCT). It can be on a piece of land, on a house or on both of them.

I tried to get a usufruct stamp (yes, one exists) from the lands department in Koh Samui. My wife was present and fully supported the stamp as it made our marriage 'equal' and took pressure off her from her mother who was taking a very keen interest in our assets. The land officer (the big boss in the office might I add) refused to issue one to us despite both parties asking and our land title being clear, undisputed chanote in my wifes name. His reasoning was that she shouldn't trust me because I was farang and a usufruct stamp was going against the interests of the country.

Seriously.

[Boater]

I really think the topic title should be changed to

British Farmer loses Land Lease on his Farm after NOT reading the contracts and being Screwed over by his Ex Wife

the title is suggesting that the 30 year lease term can infact be revoked, but in this case it is being revoked because he was screwed over and didnt read the contracts, could happen to anyone, anywhere if you do not use the correct lawyer and look at your contracts

To whom it may concern:check your 30 year leases!

To whom it may concern: check your wife !

spot on

Edited August 22, 2011 by thaiphoon
Quote repaired

[Soutpeel]

Another case of screwing the farang? I think a high percentage of the Thai population don't know the difference between right and wrong, or simply don't have any morals.

My take on this: foreigners have few rights in Thailand. Keep renting and you can't go far wrong. Don't buy anything you can't put in your name.

Some people just don't get the message and keep coming back for more?

Maybe citing the old saying "dont invest more in Thailand, that you are prepared to walk away from" is approriate at this juncture....

[FOODLOVER]

Another case of screwing the farang? I think a high percentage of the Thai population don't know the difference between right and wrong, or simply don't have any morals.

My take on this: foreigners have few rights in Thailand. Keep renting and you can't go far wrong. Don't buy anything you can't put in your name.

Some people just don't get the message and keep coming back for more?

So True! Reducing exposure daily.

[pepi2005]

.. and we find ourselves with the usual associations:

3rd world country ...

scams ...

lawlessness ...

ripoffs ...

lies ...

[manarak]

I suppose the initial lease was made void because all legal agreements between husband and wife can be cancelled incase of divorce.

The land was put in his wife's name, I wonder why he did this? It would have been safer in the name of his company, and the company could have granted him and his children joint usufruct, problem solved.

The title of this thread is factually wrong - the lease was not watertight.

The rest of the text is polemic and leads the reader to think that the law was bent, but the main message here, and I say this for Andrew Drummond, is for expats to cut no corners when it comes to legal matters.

Necessary steps are:

- extensive personal research on the legal situation (marriage law, land law, commercial law, etc.) and past cases. This would have revelaed the need for extreme caution as well as the existence of solutions (i.e. usufruct).

- also do extensive personal research on who your legal counsels will be. If we are talking big business, it is even preferable to use a lawyer office plus an international controlling/consulting office(like KPMG) which has skilled staff that can control what the lawyer does.

- do not sign important documents without having them translated into English by a trusted translator (for example one that is accredited with your embassy). In some cases, like commercial contracts, it is also allowed to to add the clause that incase of disagreement, the English version of the contract will prevail. Probably not possible in all cases.

[jalansanitwong]

Any farang that puts 22 rai of land in the name of a Thai wife is insane. Do you think she married that old goat for love and companionship ? Thais marry all farang for money...nothing else.

[Swiss1960]

Too bad for him... but my lawyer told me two things about buying property which I think this guy did not follow

1) Never believe in the lawyer of your partner, always hire your own lawyer to double check, officially translate and have official photocopies

2) Never let your Thai wife have the papers of your property, whether land or appartment, even if in her name, as that is exactly what you end up: She sells it away and you end up on the street with nothing in his pocket...

[F1fanatic]

I sincerely hope the UK is not sending out a government officer to "investigate his case"!

The UK has far more important things to worry about than wasting money sending an official to Thailand. If they don't believe whatever claim he is making then they should just turn his claim down and tell him to go back to Thailand.

[millwall_fan]

One cannot win from the Mafia. Charoen Pokhand, major sponsor of the Democrat Party and Yellow Shirt and partly to blame for the Southern Unrest is in bed with criminals like Suthep. Though investing themselves heavily abroad these people are anti competitive and greedy. This guy simply joins the large army of poor Thai farmers and People who have lost their land and access to the sea because of CP. I wonder however how this man could run a farm in the first place. Farming is one of those professions that foreigners are officially not allowed to do. Maybe he lost his mojo when he lost his money and could no longer pay the police, prosecutors and upstanding Thai judges?

Thailand is a good country to retire. If you like to do business, opt for Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam or even China. You might have a tiny chance that you will find the law on your side there.

Our Former Prime Minister K. Abhisit's father is a director and major shareholder of CP foods.

[Xonax]

One can wonder where he originally met his Thai wife. She was obviously in it for the money only, and unfortunately you keep hearing this kind of story over and over again. One can only imagine, that he met her in a bar, and had to pay her for sex the first time or two.

[Boater]

I suppose the initial lease was made void because all legal agreements between husband and wife can be cancelled incase of divorce.

The land was put in his wife's name, I wonder why he did this? It would have been safer in the name of his company, and the company could have granted him and his children joint usufruct, problem solved.

The title of this thread is factually wrong - the lease was not watertight.

The rest of the text is polemic and leads the reader to think that the law was bent, but the main message here, and I say this for Andrew Drummond, is for expats to cut no corners when it comes to legal matters.

Necessary steps are:

- extensive personal research on the legal situation (marriage law, land law, commercial law, etc.) and past cases. This would have revelaed the need for extreme caution as well as the existence of solutions (i.e. usufruct).

- also do extensive personal research on who your legal counsels will be. If we are talking big business, it is even preferable to use a lawyer office plus an international controlling/consulting office(like KPMG) which has skilled staff that can control what the lawyer does.

- do not sign important documents without having them translated into English by a trusted translator (for example one that is accredited with your embassy). In some cases, like commercial contracts, it is also allowed to to add the clause that incase of disagreement, the English version of the contract will prevail. Probably not possible in all cases.

The title of this thread is factually wrong - the lease was not watertight.

Exaclty, and all this will do is send a negative ripple into the property market, it should concentrate more around

1) Dont always trust your partner

2) ALWAYS use a indepentant lawyer

[osiboy]

I suppose the initial lease was made void because all legal agreements between husband and wife can be cancelled incase of divorce.

The land was put in his wife's name, I wonder why he did this? It would have been safer in the name of his company, and the company could have granted him and his children joint usufruct, problem solved.

The title of this thread is factually wrong - the lease was not watertight.

The rest of the text is polemic and leads the reader to think that the law was bent, but the main message here, and I say this for Andrew Drummond, is for expats to cut no corners when it comes to legal matters.

Necessary steps are:

- extensive personal research on the legal situation (marriage law, land law, commercial law, etc.) and past cases. This would have revelaed the need for extreme caution as well as the existence of solutions (i.e. usufruct).

- also do extensive personal research on who your legal counsels will be. If we are talking big business, it is even preferable to use a lawyer office plus an international controlling/consulting office(like KPMG) which has skilled staff that can control what the lawyer does.

- do not sign important documents without having them translated into English by a trusted translator (for example one that is accredited with your embassy). In some cases, like commercial contracts, it is also allowed to to add the clause that incase of disagreement, the English version of the contract will prevail. Probably not possible in all cases.

The necessary steps are ; DONT INVEST IN THAILAND, there is no justice for foriegners here, when will we learn ? .... when we are brought down to the same level maybe !

[osiboy]

For what its worth..I recall being told (when I took my lease out here many years ago) that this was NOT legal between a married couple..so maybe this chap didn't do his homework in the first place? and then his comment that he didn't know what it was he was signing? sorry, but sounds like he was a bit naive or 'slack' to say the lease (pun intended).

so why would a lawyer let him sign it ?????....... surely your lawyer is there to protect your interests ??........., its not naivity , hes been ripped off by his thai wife and the lawyer ,.,... so whats new ? TIT.... dont invest !

[Rimmer]

Two posts that are quotes only removed from view

[TechnikaIII]

To whom it may concern:check your 30 year leases!

To whom it may concern: check your wife !

Better:

Check the woman before you make her your wife, and embark upon that journey over deep waters where no farang is allowed to swim.

Never let members of her family take the helm, and keep your personal lifeboat stocked with rations.

[GooEng]

.. and we find ourselves with the usual associations:

3rd world country ...

scams ...

lawlessness ...

ripoffs ...

lies ...

yeah, gettting a bit dull innit? we all know that this place is a nest of vipers, why anyone would invest in any substantial business here is beyond me ....

[stanley2550]

A couple of days ago I read that Thailand was trying to change it's image from being known as the sex captial of the world by eliminating prostitution. It seems to me that their priorities are backwards. Land Fraud, police fraud, attorney fraud. Behind the fluff of a modern infrastructue, sky trains, subways, big malls, etc. It is still a 3rd world country. Corruption here will never go away.

ps

even the new woman priminster is facing charges from the security exchange commision here...ain't that a laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ad infinetum. They can't change and thats the bottom line. There is no ifs ands or buts about it. You have to remember always you are a Foreigner with absolutely no rights.

At least in the western world there is the rule of law. it may not be perfect, but its a dam sight better than what you get here.