Legendary British Farmer Joe Loses Water-Tight 30-Year Lease In Thailand

[slipperx]

It's too easy - lease or no lease. Just copy the farangs passport, forge his signature on that (just copy the signature on the passport copy), forge a signature on a Power of Attorney and go cancel the lease. Simple

It happened that way to me - http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/396496-four-ways-to-lose-your-property-in-thailand/

[KKK]

I'm not a Lawyer but i think this a far better agreement, much cheaper to set up and it's for your life.

Usufruct Agreements in Thailand

Usufruct contracts are governed by sections 1417 to 1428 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand. A usufruct is a right granted by the owner(s) of the land/house in favor of a usufructuary whereby this person has the right to possess, use and enjoy the benefits of an immovable property (section 1417 CCCT). The usufructuary has the right to manage the property (sect 1414 CCCT). It can be on a piece of land, on a house or on both of them.

I tried to get a usufruct stamp (yes, one exists) from the lands department in Koh Samui. My wife was present and fully supported the stamp as it made our marriage 'equal' and took pressure off her from her mother who was taking a very keen interest in our assets. The land officer (the big boss in the office might I add) refused to issue one to us despite both parties asking and our land title being clear, undisputed chanote in my wifes name. His reasoning was that she shouldn't trust me because I was farang and a usufruct stamp was going against the interests of the country.

Seriously.

Oh yeah like you was going to build and store nuclear missiles on the land...jeezus what a paranoid land officer. Bet he's quite happy owning a piece of farangland though. Two faced git.

[manarak]

I'm not a Lawyer but i think this a far better agreement, much cheaper to set up and it's for your life.

Usufruct Agreements in Thailand

Usufruct contracts are governed by sections 1417 to 1428 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand. A usufruct is a right granted by the owner(s) of the land/house in favor of a usufructuary whereby this person has the right to possess, use and enjoy the benefits of an immovable property (section 1417 CCCT). The usufructuary has the right to manage the property (sect 1414 CCCT). It can be on a piece of land, on a house or on both of them.

I tried to get a usufruct stamp (yes, one exists) from the lands department in Koh Samui. My wife was present and fully supported the stamp as it made our marriage 'equal' and took pressure off her from her mother who was taking a very keen interest in our assets. The land officer (the big boss in the office might I add) refused to issue one to us despite both parties asking and our land title being clear, undisputed chanote in my wifes name. His reasoning was that she shouldn't trust me because I was farang and a usufruct stamp was going against the interests of the country.

Seriously.

The usufruct would probably have been cancelled in case of divorce, so it was of no use to you anyway.

BUT: usufruct is fully legal and the land office has to register it. Maybe the big boss just wanted a contribution for helping him build his new villa. But I do think the administrative court would order the land office to register the usufruct.

A good article on the subject:

http://www.bangkoklawonline.com/faq/what-is-a-right-of-usufruct-in-thailand.html

[Siripon]

One cannot win from the Mafia. Charoen Pokhand, major sponsor of the Democrat Party and Yellow Shirt and partly to blame for the Southern Unrest is in bed with criminals like Suthep. Though investing themselves heavily abroad these people are anti competitive and greedy. This guy simply joins the large army of poor Thai farmers and People who have lost their land and access to the sea because of CP. I wonder however how this man could run a farm in the first place. Farming is one of those professions that foreigners are officially not allowed to do. Maybe he lost his mojo when he lost his money and could no longer pay the police, prosecutors and upstanding Thai judges?

Thailand is a good country to retire. If you like to do business, opt for Cambodia, Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam or even China. You might have a tiny chance that you will find the law on your side there.

CP were one of the main contributors to Thaksin's Thai Rak Thai party.

Wantana Muangsook, a son-in-law of Dhanin was a minister in Thaksin's government.

People like Dhanin, the head of CP contribute to both main parties usually to ensure there are no problems when governments change

Edited August 22, 2011 by Siripon

[crazykopite]

why i am not surprised can't believe your wife your lawyer you local cops, so where do you stand in the land of smiles.......in a pile of s**t.....

pack your bags and go home at least you know what the law says and if your lawyer lies he will be diss-bared. I am sure the Thai lawyer will continue to work doing the same all to Thais or frangs

That says it all then end of argument if they looked into the finances of the last PM and his family I am sure there would be many red faces.

[Bakseedaa]

One can wonder where he originally met his Thai wife. She was obviously in it for the money only, and unfortunately you keep hearing this kind of story over and over again. One can only imagine, that he met her in a bar, and had to pay her for sex the first time or two.

WoW...Dont men always pay.... ?

[rafish]

I suppose the initial lease was made void because all legal agreements between husband and wife can be cancelled incase of divorce.

The land was put in his wife's name, I wonder why he did this? It would have been safer in the name of his company, and the company could have granted him and his children joint usufruct, problem solved.

The title of this thread is factually wrong - the lease was not watertight.

The rest of the text is polemic and leads the reader to think that the law was bent, but the main message here, and I say this for Andrew Drummond, is for expats to cut no corners when it comes to legal matters.

Necessary steps are:

- extensive personal research on the legal situation (marriage law, land law, commercial law, etc.) and past cases. This would have revelaed the need for extreme caution as well as the existence of solutions (i.e. usufruct).

- also do extensive personal research on who your legal counsels will be. If we are talking big business, it is even preferable to use a lawyer office plus an international controlling/consulting office(like KPMG) which has skilled staff that can control what the lawyer does.

- do not sign important documents without having them translated into English by a trusted translator (for example one that is accredited with your embassy). In some cases, like commercial contracts, it is also allowed to to add the clause that incase of disagreement, the English version of the contract will prevail. Probably not possible in all cases.

Again, just one more time, This is Thailand and FYI no title is secure for foreigners regardless of lawyers, copies, notorized or not. The wife plain and simple beat him out of it and the Thai legal system, sad as it may be, let her. Again, just for you..."check the wife!"

[thailandadam]

There are things I've learned in Thailand (through other people's lessons):

Rent it.

Never outlive your usefulness; don't buy something outright for the full balance.

In order to make a small fortune, you must bring a large fortune.

You're welcome to invest in Thailand, just don't plan on taking it out.

This takes care of most things in the land of smiles...

[kevbap]

My take on some of the remarks :-

A foreigner cannot be an agricultural worker, but he can own a business (with the requisite Thai partners). So he should be OK there.

With the 'added' clause in his lease - should take a notarised photocopy of any legal document when it is signed (including the back of each page!)

To go up against a Thai business in the same field is asking for trouble - look at the way Chang took Carlsberg to the cleaners. And you're not as clever as Carlsberg, however bright you think yourself.

I went broke in Thailand - I'm slowly recovering in Vietnam. Much better place to be - apart from missing the sleaze.

good luck Humphrey, been looking at Vietnam myself as its not essential for my business to be in Thailand!

[BlackJack]

I'm not a Lawyer but i think this a far better agreement, much cheaper to set up and it's for your life.

Usufruct Agreements in Thailand

Usufruct contracts are governed by sections 1417 to 1428 of the Commercial and Civil Code of Thailand. A usufruct is a right granted by the owner(s) of the land/house in favor of a usufructuary whereby this person has the right to possess, use and enjoy the benefits of an immovable property (section 1417 CCCT). The usufructuary has the right to manage the property (sect 1414 CCCT). It can be on a piece of land, on a house or on both of them.

I dont like the sounds of this part "until the end of your life."

[JohnAllan]

Depressing .. but not unique ... actually always had the impression that farang was not allowed to be involved in any kind of farming or agricultural business in general

Be good if they were then you could get 2 litres of decent tasting milk for (1 pound) 49bht, just as you can in England.

Actually, you can get decent tasting milk - Meiji . . .

[jamora]

Any farang that puts 22 rai of land in the name of a Thai wife is insane. Do you think she married that old goat for love and companionship ? Thais marry all farang for money...nothing else.

What about farangs marrying Thais for money?

[true blue]

Depressing .. but not unique ... actually always had the impression that farang was not allowed to be involved in any kind of farming or agricultural business in general

Be good if they were then you could get 2 litres of decent tasting milk for (1 pound) 49bht, just as you can in England.

Actually, you can get decent tasting milk - Meiji . . .

meiji milk okay,bit phang though,(compared to uk)lol.

[smileydude]

i hope anybody thinking of investing in infesting corrupt countries like thailand will think again after reading this, its not about the lease and if it was' legal' its about greedy thais stealing all they can from foreigners , bleeding them dry , ...looks like his x wife was not content with being rescued from wherever the gutter was he dragged her from, no doubt she will be at the temple now thanking buddha for her '' good fortune "................DONT INVEST IN THAILAND !!................. land of stealing. There are lots of thai kids that need foster parents , farang are welcome ,.............ANYONE INTERESTED IN HELPING ???

Wow, somebody here in Thailand must have really stuck it to you considering your attitude towards thais and the country in general.

True, Thailand has those cons and thai wives just looking to make an easy killing especially targeting those homely farangs who upon disembarkation off the plane have women all over them, fall into the ego trap that he's gods gift to women and loses all common sense on how to handle his money.

But the point is cons and thieves exist everywhere. If you want to do business in any country you have to do your homework, but even then there is no guarantee it will succeed or you will not be cheated. Its a fact of life of all businesses that you have to be aware of the risks and take precautions.

As for marriages YOU chose your own partner based on your OWN logic and wisdom and sometimes the brain that hangs below your belt so venture at your own risk.

You have no one else to blame except yourself. Don't show others how idiotic you are by blaming a whole country or nationality for your woes.

Nevertheless no matter how naive someone is no one deserves to be cheated and I feel sorry for Joe and hope he finds a way out of this mess.

Peace

Edited August 22, 2011 by smileydude

[SAffer]

Depressing .. but not unique ... actually always had the impression that farang was not allowed to be involved in any kind of farming or agricultural business in general

Be good if they were then you could get 2 litres of decent tasting milk for (1 pound) 49bht, just as you can in England.

Hear hear

[Danlo]

Another fool who didnt cover his arse.

[Arkady]

It is not at all clear from the story what happened in legal terms but an agreement between man and wife can be annulled by a court, if one party can produce evidence that it was an unfair agreement forced on them through the undue influence exercised by the spouse in the marital relationship. It sounds like some fraud was also involved in the form of doctoring agreements after the event. At the time of the original transaction in 2000 he could easily have purchased the land through a company which he would have needed to conduct the business anyway. He was insane to purchase it in the name of a Thai hooker.

Usufructs have some advantages over leases, as they can be life long and for nil consideration which reduces the tax burden to virtually nil, but they are subject to the same risks of being voided between man and wife and being fraudulently doctored as leases.

The real story for the UK tabloids will not be yet another naive farang being robbed by a Thai prostitute he was foolish enough to marry but the social workers getting a trip to Thailand on the taxpayer, if they are really so bold to try such a scam. They are not experts on Thai law and cannot read or speak Thai. What could they possibly achieve by travelling to Thailand?

[AngelofDeath]

There are so many encounters of this nature happening in Thailand. Now I'm wondering if I should retired in Thailand in the future and whether I should be marrying a Thai wife.

On the other hand, bad news sell. Is there a ratio of successful relationshi between farang and Thai to farangs scammed by their wives? Imagine working so hard to retire in peace, and one day you wake up and "boom", this thing happen.

[SAffer]

I certainly wouldn't want to retire here, or be married to a Thai lady.

I couldn't think of a more boring scenario.

[oz93666]

Any farang that puts 22 rai of land in the name of a Thai wife is insane. Do you think she married that old goat for love and companionship ? Thais marry all farang for money...nothing else.

to be fair I don't think Thais discriminate here..... one example, the 45 year old brother of my (Thai) girlfriend recently married a very cute 23year old Thai girl, he has a lot of rubber trees making about 200,000Bht every month, she made it very clear that if he doesn't give her a good part of this to her and her side of the family every month then she's off back to mummy.....

[JarekN]

Now seriously, if someone really screws you like that, why not take bit of money and give it to the right people so that they can take care of the ex-wife? I don't see Japanese men getting screwed like this cause any girl that would do so knows that her life would soon come to an end... It's mostly white guys who are stupid enough to trust the girl in the first place, second fail to get the right legal advise and third let them get away when it all goes down... You are in Asia, people here DO NOT live by the same rules like back home... They have very limited respect towards you (if any) and most wouldn't think twice about screwing you over very small amount of money. Grow a set of balls and deal with it, if enough people do so they'll think twice about screwing foreigners over..

Edited August 22, 2011 by JarekN

[thaihome]

When his wife bought the land, he very likely signed a document at the land office that basically said the money used to purchase the land was not martial property and he had no claim to it.

Did he think that was a meaningless document?

Did he not know that a contract between a husband and wife is not binding and this is true in many jurisdictions?

I do indeed feel sorry for Farmer Joe and plight he has found himself in.

I do object the tone of the article making it seem like he bears no responsibility for what happened. Everything comes back to choices he made. The idea of blaming “Thailand” for it just shirking that responsibility. Something that seems to be very prevalent in this day and age.

A 30 year lease or usufruct is very good, but they only protect you from your wife’s relatives in case she dies. They give you nothing to protect you from your wife if she decides she wants a divorce and to keep the assets which you have plainly stated are not yours.

TH

[jakhoeblal]

Very sad. I saw and hear about these stories many times

However, many times I have to conclude, that the Thai (wife) is much smarter than the farang. Farangs looks many times so stupid

[OzMick]

Depressing .. but not unique ... actually always had the impression that farang was not allowed to be involved in any kind of farming or agricultural business in general

Be good if they were then you could get 2 litres of decent tasting milk for (1 pound) 49bht, just as you can in England.

Actually, you can get decent tasting milk - Meiji . . .

meiji milk okay,bit phang though,(compared to uk)lol.

If you were still getting B80 for a quid, it would be cheap. Blame the right people.

[blabla1]

I don't know much, but what i did,is put down a small deposit for a house and got her to take out a 30 year loan, if i leave she can't pay it, if she gets a new farang, i'll beat the shit out of him, if she leaves, I'll pay her a small monthly allowance, in 30 years ,she can do what she wants hehehehehehe, small investment, i'd say, unfortunately, she loves me and has to suffer for the egoistic ,thieving,ungrateful antics of her fellow species here in Thailand....

[Sydebolle]

Well, if you cannot legally own it then it is not yours. And illegally adding paragraphs to inked deals is nothing new here. This country is heading full steam for the shoots. I for one sold all my assets and live in rented property; business is no longer conducted here as I just had it with this slime of local yocals screwing everything alien. It is time that this manure learns a lesson; come time it will eventually happen. What a pitty for such a beautiful country.

[RedQualia]

Have the 30 year lease. Have the usufruct. Had been planning on putting the deed to the land in my wife's name, so that she could inherit it were I to die. Disappointed to read here that the usufruct could be voided in the event of a divorce, but of course, good to know BEFORE actually transferring the deed to my wife's name.

I'll talk with a lawyer about it a bit more, but it would appear that there's no way to allow her to inherit the land/house without this risk. If anyone has information to the contrary, please do let me know.

Thanks

[Nip]

For all those who have bought or intend to buy houses in Thailand with 30 year + leases. Only last week I spoke with a Chief Prosecutor and his comment on leases was? If challenged in a court of law they will not stand up cos they are unquestionably a means to circumvent Thai law. Also if you buy a house from a builder what happens if that builder goes out of business and the banks seize the assets of the company including the leases? What happens if the builder sells his business? Leases are a very dangerous option! I believe there are 7 cases at the moment in Samui where foreigners have bought properties there and third parties are trying to null and void the leases for being illegal?

[JohannaScott]

I'm sure at one time this sort of scam got so out of hand, especially in Pattaya, that it was decided that if the foreigner could prove the purchase had been made with his/her own money (i.e. bank transfer), that he/she would have to sell the land and get their money back since they are not allowed to own land. I'm not sure what happens when they are married to a thai but I think they are entitled to 50/50 share of both profit/debt.

[p_brownstone]

This has to be a joke - really!?

"Legendary turkey farmer Joe Stanyer, who used to supply Thailand’s best hotels with their Christmas bird"

"Legendary"? I've been here almost 40 years and never heard of the chap. However I've bought U.S. Butterball type Turkeys in Villa for years - when the Thai family wants to experience a really "Farang Christmas".

(However in the last few years I have bought locally produced Turkey thighs, breast etc. from Villa which are produced locally but I'd never consider their Producer as a "Legend"!)

Plus :

" This story could suspend one’s belief so much so that even social workers from Redbridge Council in Essex want to check it out"

I don't think 1 in 1,000 of "social workers from Redbridge" could find Thailand on a Map - not cheating using Google of course.

Patrick