Whatever Happened To

[bkkjames]

Guess you never been to Washington Square. But anyways, our debating this won't change things. Only Chuwit can change things!

Cheers

[Insight]

I personally reckon Chewit Park will become a big pick-up joint. A bit like Lumpini Park, but more catered for Westerners...

What ever magic there was down that stretch of Sukhumvit has well worn off for me by now. Maybe it's the renegade attitudes of the girls working in what's remaining of the beer & gogo bars, or maybe it's the pretentious crowd that homes in on the likes of The Bed & Q-Bar. Either way, in my opinion the place doesn't just doesn't cut it anymore.

[WhiteShiva]

I have seen unfortunate evolution of Sukhumvit over the last 6 years and quite frankly one of the main reasons people stayed  at the Landmark, Marriot, Sheraton, Westin was because of the raw atmosphere of the area. Those other visitors coming here for strict business purposes probably headed for the Hyatt, Sukhothai, Banyan Tree, Four Seasons etc due to their proximity to the main cbd area of Bangkok.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sukhumvit has several multinational and large Thai companies operating in the area, good shopping, ease of access to airport via highway, close to subway and skytrain, an abundence of good restaurants - both Thai and foreign, many embassies located in the area, etc, etc.

Are you honestly so deluded that you think guests at the Mariott, Sheraton, Novotel or the Westin stay there because of ease of access to go-go and beer bars? I think you need to mix with a different crowd....

[bkkjames]

What I think will be interesting to see over the next few years is what happens to the condominium / serviced apartment market in the whole Nana / lower Sukhumvit area.

There will be those that believe that prices will continue to go up in lieu of Bangkok's increasing traffic woes and its relatively convenient location to the BTS /MRT. I don't think so.

I personally think that this area in going to be in for a bit of a price shock. If they continue to build 5* hotels and luxury condos like the pace its going now, then inevitably the surrounding shops and restaurants will go more and more upscale.

Will this mean that the area (that is now filled will expat owners / renters) will gradually move away from this area to be replaced by high-heeled Thais or Japanese a la Thonglor? I don't think so en masse. But at the same time I don't see why foreigners will continue to pay larger and larger rates for grade b and c condos / apartments in this area either. Plus if we continue to make this area more and more filled with generic shopping / dining / entertainment options, I don't think the thousands of expats who chose this area because of its personality will continue to see it as a desirable place which suits their lifestyles.

I am a little close to the residential property market and I can tell you that most of the units being purchased along Sukhumvit are being done so by mostly Thai and some foreign investors who are hoping to rent these places out to foreigners.

For these type of renters (big budget), what for them is the appeal of this little stretch of Sukhumvit? Pollution, traffic, bar girls and drug dealers? This area is not Luang Suan, Rajadamri, Ruamrudee or even Rama 3 / Riverside.

I know some people believe that Thailand is heading towards "Elite Card type" holiday makers and longstay millionaires but in reality these folks don't really hang out for very long in Bangkok and certainly not along this stretch of Sukhumvit. They head for the hotels such as the Oriental, Shangri la, Peninsula where the air is a little more breathable to watch the river flow by etc.

Maybe we can open a night safari or big shopping mall on the corner of Asoke and Sukhumvit. This will no doubt attract millions of new high-end tourists to visit this part of Bangkok.

Sad to say but the more expensive and generic Bangkok becomes the less reason why people from Singapore, HK, Japan and Europe will want to visit here. We once had a competitive niche which was its unique rawness and compelling Thai way of doing things that wasn't Singaborean or as fast paced as HK. Some people call it progress and it's a good thing for Thai people. (Which Thai people I wonder?)

I tend to think that a new (not so red) star is rising in the region which will re-capture the imagination and fascination of foreign travellers, the ones like me that fell in love with this country only to see it slowly becoming another tall no-foam double hazzlenut latte with a side of fashion city.

I hope I am wrong.

[taxexile]

Guess you never been to Washington Square

i know it well , and i've never seen asians hanging out with service girls there.

they go IN to the massage parlours there , but do not hang around outside making fools of themselves.

what exactly have you noticed in soi 22 and its environs that you think i should be aware of?

[bkkjames]

"Are you honestly so deluded that you think guests at the Mariott, Sheraton, Novotel or the Westin stay there because of ease of access to go-go and beer bars? I think you need to mix with a different crowd." quoting whiteshiva

Well mate, I know 2-4 GM's of the hotels you speak of and I can tell you that a large percentage of female thai id cards get left with reception throughout any given night.

Perhaps the delusional one is he who really believes that these hotels are full of nothing but families of 4 or businessmen who like the great restaurants and shopping you speak of between suk 1 and 21.

[dek_shai_khing]

bkkjames.

Well mate, I know 2-4 GM's of the hotels you speak of and I can tell you that a large percentage of female thai id cards get left with reception throughout any given night.

Large percentage ? Can you expand on that ? The three hotels in question have 1300 rooms between them. How many female ID cards do they witness left with reception a night ?

[rio666uk]

bkkjames.

Well mate, I know 2-4 GM's of the hotels you speak of and I can tell you that a large percentage of female thai id cards get left with reception throughout any given night.

Large percentage ? Can you expand on that ? The three hotels in question have 1300 rooms between them. How many female ID cards do they witness left with reception a night ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1 or 2 i would imagine

[bkkjames]

That's funny mate. Let me make a guess. 1000 girls at Nana + 600 at Cowboy plus too many hanging around the streets and bar beers, nana disco - katoeys = at least 2000, take that number and divide by 1300 rooms (assuming they are fully booked of course) = 1.5 id cards per room per night.

This is the kind of math TAT uses when it says that tourist numbers to Bangkok next year will reach 15 million because of the new airport. Do you they really think 4 million extra people will come here next year just to see that? It's bound to be a circus but I wouldn't call it Disneyland yet.

Me thinks that all of those tourists who really wanted to come to Thailand this year, somehow managed to get a flight into Don Muang. I don't think too many were told by their travel agents back home "I am sorry, the airport at Bangkok is fully booked until mid 2006."

Cheers

[ProfessorFart]

Rome was not built in a day. What you are witnessing now in Bangkok is the turning point towards what Singapore & Hong kong resembles today. If i had said the same about China 5-10 years ago would you have offered the same reply ? China stands more of an argument against your 'educated population with decent amounts of disposable income'. They have a reputed 30 million starving. Have you seen Shanghi lately ?

Shanghai is yet another major World financial centre (Along with your previous examples of Hong Kong and SIngapore) and has been since the 19th Century. Its rapid growth into 21st century modernity can be put down to the fact that it is the financial centre of the Worlds next major market place.

Bangkok is not even on the same scale in the financial world as Shanghai.

I'm glad you used the word probablyand may because that statement has no foundation. One could argue the point of why Dubai is doing so well with tourist, its certainly not camels & deserts.

Try Oil and massive duty free reductions on gold as well as being very accessible and affordable from Europe.

My statement has had more foundation than all of your examples thus far. You have displayed a poor grasp of even a basic knowledge of the cities you have used as examples and as to why they are modern cities today.

Maybe not. However what it will do is create an enviroment that will set it along the path of the asian countries such as the ones mentioned. Buildings already in motion such as The Paragon, the new airport, Central world Plaza. New luxury accomadation being built alone on the Sukhumvit is easy enough for any layman to see which way the winds blowing in Bangkok. Even yourself ProfessorFart made this reply to a thread on this same forum about exactly of what we are speaking of here, and i qoute you..

QUOTE

Sadly it looks like those days are numbered and BKK is heading the same way as Singapore; soon to be a procession of malls, faceless chain hotels, and 'upmarket' aircon bars with all the ambience of a goldfish bowl.

And what exactly is your point? I have said that they will carry on and do it anyway regardless of there being any true potential market for such places.

Well purely on that assumption, can you tell me who is filling these high end hotels that are already built, not to mention the ones being such as...

This is part of the trouble. BKK's existing top end hotels are struggling with occupancy rates and have been for many years now. Just why more and more are springing up is anyones guess. I wonder again who indeed is going to fill all these new rooms if they can't even fill the existing rooms.

[ProfessorFart]

We all have our stand-by rat holes, we just hope we never have to use them, 

(ie, the "Grand Inn" on Soi 3, ya got love an elevator that stops between floors

Its always been a useful standby for me especially one Christmas eve when I just couldn't handle the idea of not being in BKK and arrived at 3PM and couldn't find a room for less than 2500B for love nor money.

But it is this range and versitility which makes Bangkok such a popular city. If people want luxury for 3000B+ they can have it. If they want mid range comfort in a small hotel they can have it, if they want bottom end doss house, they can have it. Were everything catering for non luxury market expunged form Bangkok who would visit? and more importantly once they'd seen Wat Pra Kaew, who would stay?

Thailand can't afford to price itself out of the market here.

[RDN]

I personally reckon Chewit Park will become a big pick-up joint. A bit like Lumpini Park, but more catered for Westerners...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just like Benjasiri Park next to the Emporium.

[dek_shai_khing]

Shanghai is yet another major World financial centre (Along with your previous examples of Hong Kong and SIngapore) and has been since the 19th Century. Its rapid growth into 21st century modernity can be put down to the fact that it is the financial centre of the Worlds next major market place.

Well hurrah for that. Although you interpreted my reply wrong, that is exactly what i was getting at. A country that has poverty all around with illiteracy, & poor wage per capita, can still build luxury hotels. Bangkok whilst of course not on the same scale in the financial world as Shanghai, can still be capable of building luxury hotels. And like i said, ' what you are witnessing is the turning point that will see Thailand on a path similar to what Singapore/Hong Kong have managed to achieve over a forty year period.

Try Oil and massive duty free reductions on gold as well as being very accessible and affordable from Europe.

Iraq is very acceessible and affordable from Europe, but i think it lacks the luxury of hotels & malls that Dubai attracts the tourist to.

My statement has had more foundation than all of your examples thus far. You have displayed a poor grasp of even a basic knowledge of the cities you have used as examples and as to why they are modern cities today.

When you misinterpret my replies you may be forgiven into thinking this.

And what exactly is your point? I have said that they will carry on and do it anyway regardless of there being any true potential market for such places.

My point was to try to extol the fact to the forum that Thailand has numerous luxury hotel building structures in progress that will eclipse the thought of a few cockroach infested areas of Bangkok being lost to a little luxury.

This is part of the trouble. BKK's existing top end hotels are struggling with occupancy rates and have been for many years now. Just why more and more are springing up is anyones guess. I wonder again who indeed is going to fill all these new rooms if they can't even fill the existing rooms.

Tell me, these existing top end hotels that you keep going on about that are supposedly struggling for many years, why have they not gone into liquidation ? Surely they are not being subsidised ! I mean they can never run at a loss can they ? Lets throw a few of their names up, and you tell me how long they have been..errr running at a loss. The Oriental, The Shangri La, The newly revamped Banyan tree, The newly built peninsular..do i really have to go on ?

Maybe your problem with understanding this professorFart is you are suffering with Miami hotel tunnel vision. Brought on by the thought of that any hotel that has the audacity to charge 100's of $$ for a room that supplies a degree of comfort for their hard earned money, may just sound a tad capitalist to you.

[bkkjames]

Wow, you guys are really too serious. What started out as as thread about thinking back about the "good old days" has turned into a debate about turning Bkk into a financial / tourist hub of Asia.

Realistically speaking, as the long as the status quo vis-a-vis corruption at all levels remains where it is, Bangkok will never achieve its oft-spoken "hub" status, be it financial, manufacturing, tourism, fashion.

As for the comment about Orientel , Shangri-la etc, no one is arguing this fact that they do very well, we were talking about Sukhumvit road.

When you have the 3 largest hotel brands operating in the area (6 Continents Group = Intercon, Holiday and coming soon Crowne Plaza), along with Accor (Sofitel, Novotel) and Starwood (Sheraton, Westin), they have massive resources due to their own internal GDS systems which virtually guarantees a steady flow of bookings. However, this comes back to the original traveller, why would they want to stay in such an area?

As an earlier poster said, this area (early Sukhumvit) has easy access to the Silom Sathorn business districts via bts/mrt but the Hyatt, Plaza Athenee, Four Seasons, Sukhothai are located much nearer if this was the criteria.

Maybe its just me but perhaps some of these travellers liked the atmosphere of this part of Sukhumvit (once the working day ended)? With all this (dirty, disgusting bar beers, girls) atmosphere disappearing to be replaced by fast food chains and hi-end boutiques, I really wonder if this area will continue to hold its appeal. Perhaps it will attract the more affluent luxury traveller but me thinks they won't see the appeal of stairing out at concrete buildings and traffic pollution or Chuwit Park when they could be having afternoon high tea at the Oriental, Shang or Penninsula.

Just take a long look at the single males piling out of the Sheraton, Marriot, Landmark etc at 8pm on any given night to head out to where? I don't think they are jumping the skytrain to Siam or Emporium to pick up a new dress for their wives back in London, Frankfurt or Singapore.

Anyways Guys,, it's been a lovely long debate but I think it's time that we move on to other thoughts? Afterall, I don't think I am going to change your opinion and I know you won't change mine. But it was fun to exchange ideas and views.

Cheers

James

[WhiteShiva]

Well mate, I know 2-4 GM's of the hotels you speak of and I can tell you that a large percentage of female thai id cards get left with reception throughout any given night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A large percentage of what? The number of guests? I doubt it, having myself stayed at these hotels in the past. Sure, it happens that guests take slappers back, but a large percentage - me thinks not.

So you know 2-4 GMs of the 4 hotels I mentioned. I somehow get the impression you are not very good with numbers....

Perhaps the delusional one is he who really believes that these hotels are full of nothing but families of 4 or businessmen who like the great restaurants and shopping you speak of between suk 1 and 21.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"Just take a long look at the single males piling out of the Sheraton, Marriot, Landmark etc at 8pm on any given night to head out to where? I don't think they are jumping the skytrain to Siam or Emporium to pick up a new dress for their wives back in London, Frankfurt or Singapore."

Perhaps they are going out for dinner, movies, bowling, shopping, drinks with coworkers in a decent bar, visitng friends. Sure, a few of them partake in the naugthy nightlife, but don't you just think there may be other reasons for people leaving their hotel rooms than to shag slappers?

Dunno about you, but if I have an important meeting the next day, the last think on my mind is to go out getting hammered and bringing a flossy back for a late-night orgy.

If you honestly think the seedy areas of Sukhumvit is the reason people stay in these hotels, tell me this - who do so many foreign couples and families prefer to stay in the Sukhumvit area? Because of easy access to beer bars and hookers? What about the Thai people living there - are they all bar owners and prostitutes?

I still think you need to mix with a different crowd. You seem to have a twisted outlook on life in Bangkok in general, and Sukhumvit in particular.

[bkkjames]

You are talking about the sukhumvit area between 1 and 21 right? Cause I am.

Do you really see that many families wandering up and down this area at night because if you do, please send me the name of your eye doctor and person who supplies you with your prozac.

As far as guys not going out for a drink etc when they have a meeting in the morning, give me a break mate, you obviously need to come out of your little fantasy world and step into a bar in the area during weekdays, be it the Huntsman, Gullivers, Nana Plaza, Soi Cowboy or the Beer Garden on Soi 7. But according to you these single guys with ties on are just going out to dinner or a movie.

But I guess with a name like Whiteshiva, you are the all-knowing spiritually white god from India that knows more than anyone else. Should be called White 'full of" shiva.

[taxexile]

talking of cockroach infested dives , does anybody remember the "boston inn" the "malaysia hotel" and the "blue fox coffeeshop" in soi ngam duplee in the eighties.

aaaah happy days.

[WhiteShiva]

You are talking about the sukhumvit area between 1 and 21 right? Cause I am.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I pretty much figured that out -and you spend most of your time in the bars in this area as well, I take it.

Do you really see that many families wandering up and down this area at night because if you do, please send me the name of your eye doctor and person who supplies you with your prozac.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am living in an estate outside Bangkok with more than 300 houses/families. You don't see families walking up and down the streets in this area at night either. Can you name even one place in Bangkok where you see families walking up and down the road at night? So what is your point?

As far as guys not going out for a drink etc when they have a meeting in the morning, give me a break mate, you obviously need to come out of your little fantasy world and step into a bar in the area during weekdays, be it the Huntsman, Gullivers, Nana Plaza, Soi Cowboy or the Beer Garden on Soi 7. But according to you these single guys with ties on are just going out to dinner or a movie.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you need to read posts before repling to them. I have never said that guys don't go out for drinks in Sukhumvit- whatever gave you that idea? Ah - now I understand your query about eye doctors and Prozac. Try Bumrungrad Hospital - it is located in Soi 1 - so no need to leave your little comfort zone.

In fact - Bumrungrad Hospital is yet another reason why some people, visitors as well as residents, prefer to stay in the area - good quality healthcare!

But I guess with a name like Whiteshiva, you are the all-knowing spiritually white god from India that knows more than anyone else. Should be called White 'full of" shiva.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well it is certainly more appropriate than bkkjames, because you seem to know very little about the city from which you take you name.

[bkkjames]

Yet again your ignorance as to reality has shown itself. In one posting your talking about all the families staying at all these hotels and the next you say that you don't see them walking around your housing estate in the boonies either. Which is it?

Get your story straight man.

Do I spend time in these bars and this area of Sukhumvit...yes I do mate. Is there something wrong with that? (quite frankly, I don't care what you think)

Unlike you who prefers to make generalizations based on assumptions and certainly without any first hand knowledge, I have lived in this area over the last many years. Now if you want to post a thread about all the tourists not going to the bars in the area but instead perhaps looking at your housing estate, you have every right to. Sounds like another TAT marketing campaign, Unseen Tourists.

You remind of the foreigners from overseas that constantly complain about prostitution in Thailand (because it's so open) yet when you go back home we don't see you standing at the steps of your city hall demanding to close down all the strips clubs, massage parlours and drug dens.

Anyways, I am tired of talking to you. I think I will go have a beer in my favourite bar tonight. Feeling like joining me...sorry I forgot you are way above us Sukhumvit scum.

[dek_shai_khing]

BKKjames..

Yet again your ignorance as to reality has shown itself. In one posting your talking about all the families staying at all these hotels and the next you say that you don't see them walking around your housing estate in the boonies either. Which is it?

Perhaps they cannot be in two places at once.

[WhiteShiva]

Yet again your ignorance as to reality has shown itself. In one posting your talking about all the families staying at all these hotels and the next you say that you don't see them walking around your housing estate in the boonies either. Which is it? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was simply pointing out that just because you don’t see families walking around in the middle of the night in Sukhumvit road, you cannot automatically conclude that there are none staying in the area. You make it sound as if the only reason anyone would want to stay in this area is the presence of beer bars and go-gos. And I simply pointed out to you that although this may very explain the presence of a few sad individuals, the great majority of the population, be they tourists, expats or locals have entirely other motives for choosing said location.

Unlike you who prefers to make generalizations based on assumptions and certainly without any first hand knowledge, I have lived in this area over the last many years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I lived in Sukhumvit for more than 7 years. Why? Initially because I didn’t know Bangkok and it was within walking distance from my place of work – a multi-national company (yes they do exist in Sukhumvit). I stayed on because I didn’t have a car (this was in the pre-skytrain days), and enjoyed being able to walk to restaurants and shops. I have been to several bars in lower Sukhumvit, but it never was my favourite place to hang out.

A few years ago I married, and my Thai wife was delighted to stay in Sukhumvit, as it was within walking distance from her office in Asok. Yes – another multi-national company in the area. No more being stuck in traffic jams for hours for her.

Only when my wife got pregnant did we decide to more away from the city.

So I think I know the Sukhumvit area pretty well, having both lived and worked there.

BTW - Our condo had in excess of 30 floors, and I doubt if there were more than half a dozen farangs living there. Mostly Thai families, but also Indians (quite a few embassy staff) and Japanese. Never saw anyone bring slappers in. And yet your theory is that all these people chose to live in Sukhumvit simply because of the seedy nightlife. Or do you still stick to your statement that families don't live in the area?

You remind of the foreigners from overseas that constantly complain about prostitution in Thailand (because it's so open) yet when you go back home we don't see you standing at the steps of your city hall demanding to close down all the strips clubs, massage parlours and drug dens.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, it is only the farang-oriented prostitution that is open, and in my opinion, Thailand would be a better place if this kind of “entertainment’ was restricted to certain areas. I’d say keep it in Patpong, Cowboy and Nana, and the city would be better off. No need to display this kind of activities in plain view of everyone on a main street. I think us farangs have a lot to learn from the Thais and Japanese in that respect.

Secondly, my home country has to my knowledge only two strip joints, no massage parlours and no drug dens (at least not to my knowledge - been a few while since I have been there), so I have very little to complain about – apart from lack of strip joints, I guess.

Anyways, I am tired of talking to you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, it must be embarrassing to make yourself look like a complete newbie, especially when you have lived here for “the last many years”. Which together with your statement of knowing 2 to 4 GMs gives me the impression that accuracy and alertness are not your stronger points. I am sure you are a fun fellow to party with, though. And we all know where to find you…..

I think I will go have a beer in my favourite bar tonight. Feeling like joining me...sorry I forgot you are way above us Sukhumvit scum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By now means, I do visit Sukhumvit from time to time. Even for drinks! If nothing else, it has a great affect on whatever inferiority complexes I might have….

And take care in your favourite bar - we wouldn't like you to fall off your bar chair and be run over by a bus.

[bkkjames]

Thanks for the kind words Mr White, you are a gentleman and a scholar

I will try not to fall off my bar stool and get hit by a bus tonight but if I do, I guess I will have blame it on bad Karma right?

Until we have a chance to exchange pleasantries again, I remain.

Sincerely yours,

Drunk as a skunk,,,bkkjames

[ProfessorFart]

Well hurrah for that. Although you interpreted my reply wrong, that is exactly what i was getting at. A country that has poverty all around with illiteracy, & poor wage per capita, can still build luxury hotels. Bangkok whilst of course not on the same scale in the financial world as Shanghai, can still be capable of building luxury hotels. And like i said, ' what you are witnessing is the turning point that will see Thailand on a path similar to what Singapore/Hong Kong have managed to achieve over a forty year period.

OK, you are not able to grasp the basic concept here. In order for a city to become an economic powerhouse a la Singapore, Hong Kong or Shanghai it needs a stable financial base. Bangkok doesn't have this. Even cities like Addis Ababa and Mogadishu have luxury hotels. They are merely buildings one finds in cities the world over and bear no reflection upon a nation's wealth or status.

What is going to fuel this 'turning point' you speak of? Please enlighten me.

I fail to see how building shopping malls and hotels signifies a turning point.

Just look at the skeletons of half completed buildings that were all over Bangkok after 1997 for evidence of the fact that people build in hope more often than in knowledge.

Iraq is very acceessible and affordable from Europe, but i think it lacks the luxury of hotels & malls that Dubai attracts the tourist to.

This statment is utter dribble therefore the less said about it the better.

Tell me, these existing top end hotels that you keep going on about that are supposedly struggling for many years, why have they not gone into liquidation ? Surely they are not being subsidised ! I mean they can never run at a loss can they ? Lets throw a few of their names up, and you tell me how long they have been..errr running at a loss. The Oriental, The Shangri La, The newly revamped Banyan tree, The newly built peninsular..do i really have to go on ?

Maybe your problem with understanding this professorFart is you are suffering with Miami hotel tunnel vision. Brought on by the thought of that any hotel that has the audacity to charge 100's of $$ for a room that supplies a degree of comfort for their hard earned money, may just sound a tad capitalist to you.

All of the above hotels are parts of major international chains, which, if you know about the concept of chains, the stronger links suppoort the weaker links.

Explain why in 2001 the managements of major hotels in Bangkok regularly held meetings addressing the problems of less than 50% occupancy rates.

A part of their solution was to offer attractive packages to residents (both Thai and Foreign) in order to try and fill their rooms. This is still an ongoing problem. Personally if I had shares in a hotel chain and I knew they were building in Bangkok I would be asking for the CEO's head.

Under occupancy is still a big problem for hotels in Bangkok. I fail to see how building more can help.

FYI, I have stayed in what are supposed to be Bangkok's best hotels on many occasions in the past. Personally I found them bland, sterile, poor value for money (the Oriental was a complete let down) and somehow distant from the city outside. I much preferred (and still do) staying in places which make me feel as though I am in Bangkok.

[ProfessorFart]

Perhaps they are going out for dinner, movies, bowling, shopping, drinks with coworkers in a decent bar, visitng friends. Sure, a few of them partake in the naugthy nightlife, but don't you just think there may be other reasons for people leaving their hotel rooms than to shag slappers?

Sadly for WS and many of those who see themselves as being in the '3rd stage of expathood' and above such activities (despite probably having ran Nana Plaza ragged in their early days in Thailand) many men still do come to BKK to shag slappers.

Like it or not the accessibility of women (not just BGs) in Bangkok will always be a bigger draw than any shopping mall or 5* hotel. That is a fact and is probably what drew many of you to Bangkok too.

I know some people believe that Thailand is heading towards "Elite Card type" holiday makers and longstay millionaires but in reality these folks don't really hang out for very long in Bangkok and certainly not along this stretch of Sukhumvit. They head for the hotels such as the Oriental, Shangri la, Peninsula where the air is a little more breathable to watch the river flow by etc.

A very well put point BKKJames. I wonder how many of these 'elite card' tourists there are out there to fill Dek Shai Khing's malls and hotels??

Maybe its just me but perhaps some of these travellers liked the atmosphere of this part of Sukhumvit (once the working day ended)? With all this (dirty, disgusting bar beers, girls) atmosphere disappearing to be replaced by fast food chains and hi-end boutiques, I really wonder if this area will continue to hold its appeal. Perhaps it will attract the more affluent luxury traveller but me thinks they won't see the appeal of stairing out at concrete buildings and traffic pollution or Chuwit Park when they could be having afternoon high tea at the Oriental, Shang or Penninsula.

Again, nicely put James. I wonder how many people were drawn to Sukhumwit because of the special atmosphere there is there? Remove that and what do you have left?

[Heng]

What's &lt;deleted&gt;' hiliarious were all the folks saying the park would never be built. Mostly the same folks making all kinds of off the wall predictions about everything from the economy to politics on this thread.

[bkkjames]

Well I would like to report from my outings last nite down the classy area of Sukhumvit, that A, I saw no families of 4 shopping at 8pm and B, Chuwit Park is getting closer to completion...how do I know, all the freelancers lining up outside with their id cards negotiating for their own areas within the park with the security guards.

I wonder if Chuwit Park will have a washroom or will everyone just pee on the nearest tree? Perhaps they will run back to their hotel.

Mr White, I would also like to report that I had a few drinks, didn't fall of my stool and I am on time for my 9:45 am meeting.

Who ever said that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I love Bangkok!

[RDN]

... all the freelancers lining up outside with their id cards negotiating for their own areas within the park with the security guards....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wonder if my old apartment is still available in Soi 13? Nah, that hike up the pedestrian walkway was a killer. Better to get somewhere on the south side.