Am I Being Paid Right?

[kiwi_kid]

I have just been made an offer for a position (middle management) with a large multinational insurance company. The position is based in Bangkok, with the following key requirements:

- MBA from top tier B-school in Europe/Australia/US

- around 5 years experience

I have been offered:

- USD $25,000 base salary per year

- Accommodation for 2 years

- USD$1000 relocate allowance

I am not sure if this is the right kind of money for an MBA graduate in Thailand. The figure seems pretty low, given that they only want western grads with western experience.

Anyone have an idea whats the right ballpark? any website that gives salary range for MBA grads working thailand?

cheers!

[Jai Dee]

The salary quoted does seem a bit on the low side... however they say they want someone with only 5 years minimum experience?

Most working expats here have a healthy 20 or more years of experience under their belts... that's why their work permit applications are hassle-free. They can fill a role that the Thais cannot, and their experience is a sought after commodity.

Strange one...

[tuky]

1,020,661 THB and 47 satang per year, 2 years accom and just over 40k baht relocation.

Wow, I do not know what the market is like in insurance but it seems like you would be on a better wicket staying at home?

Was there any mention of per-diem, living away from home allowance of any sort?

[kiwi_kid]

no mention of living away allowance, coz i will be treated like a local.

[tuky]

The experience will be great!!!

[LazyCat]

Maybe it's not that much but it's a good ammount of monay in Bkk... most farangs don't have a salary like this...only those who were hired from abroad, and are treated like farangs ....

I guess my friends that were working in quite a big international firm on mid-hi management got much less than that...

besides if the accomodations are paid by the company you won't spend much here anyways...

I think it is a quite a good deal for a person who will be enjoing the living in Thailand!

[kidtongue]

I have just been made an offer for a position (middle management) with a large multinational insurance company.  The position is based in Bangkok, with the following key requirements:

- MBA from top tier B-school in Europe/Australia/US

- around 5 years experience

I have been offered:

- USD $25,000 base salary per year

- Accommodation for 2 years

- USD$1000 relocate allowance

I am not sure if this is the right kind of money for an MBA graduate in Thailand.  The figure seems pretty low, given that they only want western grads with western experience. 

Anyone have an idea whats the right ballpark?  any website that gives salary range for MBA grads working thailand?

cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Surely someone is having a go at you? Insead grads, fresh, are starting at an average of $140,000/yr +. Or maybe this is a troll?

Oh well, TiT and surely you won't have any problem explaining to the next employer why the experience was worth a 75% pay cut and justifies as 400% pay increase when you go back to the world.

[lomatopo]

Three questions:

1.) You mention base salary. This usually implies some sort of additional incentive pay based on your, and/or the firm's performance. Have any additional bonuses been mentioned?

2.) What is the "accommodation" allowance? This could be the deciding factor? If it's a cot for your office then pass; if it's 80,000 THB per month go for it.

3.) What other options are you considering?

In the U.S.A. the salary range, inclusive of bonuses, for this position would be 65,000 ~ 95,000 USD per annum.

[kiwi_kid]

i do know that the average salaries are int he range of USD$100k but thai salaries are not even remotely cloe to this due to cost of living parity adjustments. I am not a troll!

1.) You mention base salary. This usually implies some sort of additional incentive pay based on your, and/or the firm's performance. Have any additional bonuses been mentioned?

only additional incentives are free accommodation, 2 months salary as retention bonus at the end of the year and a 15% performance bonus.

2.) What is the "accommodation" allowance? This could be the deciding factor? If it's a cot for your office then pass; if it's 80,000 THB per month go for it.

there is no allowance as such for accommodation. i will be given a simple flat to live in.

3.) What other options are you considering?

i am waiting to hear back from couple of final round interviews. expected salary around AUD$90k.

[lomatopo]

3.) What other options are you considering?

i am waiting to hear back from couple of final round interviews.  expected salary around AUD$90k.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well you got an MBA so you should be able to come up with all the numbers, and factor in the intangibles, to make an informed decision.

Based on just the numbers you've presented I'd have a hard time making a case for taking a position for 50% less in total remuneration. Sure you can make some of that up on 'cost-of-living', but why?

(I compared the base salary, + 15%, + 2 months pay retention bonus, plus 10,000 THB per month for an apartment, vs. 90,000 AUD.)

[tuky]

90k AUD is 2,742,183.77 THB

What about tax?

[Jai Dee]

Very good question tukyleith...

Why would someone come to Thailand and earn 1/3 of what they could in (presumably) Australia?

Even if the tax rate was as much as 50%... they'd still be in front financially back in Oz.

Something smells...

[Jim 50]

Usually you are paid a premium to locate overseas, yes? Is this company run by Thais? If locals are runing the co and you will be treated like a local then give them a pass. Just because there is cheap &lt;deleted&gt; in Thailand does not mean they should pay you less.

[solo siam]

Sounds pretty generous to me for Thailand, If you wont do it I bet there would be a few who would.

In regards to salary drop, multiply the PPP of your salary to the diference between the country you are leaving (or going to afterwards) and Thailand.

Thailands PPP per capita is almost 4 times its GDP per capita, so you would expect salaries to be somewhere in teh region of 25-30% of what you would get in say the US.

When you leave Thailand and get a new job in a western country, your salary whilst in Thailand will have no bearing on what you get offered at your new place.

[Digger]

For an expat salary its very low. For a local hire salary, its on the high side + they are throwing in further bonuses, accomodation and presumably healthcare???. I think it depends where you are in your career plan. If you want to do it for 2 years as a stepping stone to something better, perhaps within the same firm, it might be good experience. If you want it to look good on your resume, I would suggest Thailand is one of the worst places you could show. It would carry more weight if its HKG or Singapore.

As an example, I have employed Thai MBA's at salaries around 75,000 baht per month in BKK with little in the way of the benefits you describe. Thai's generally do not make for good International/regional staff so that may be why they just want to bring in low paid expats.

I'd be asking more questions, specifically, what are the next steps after 2 yrs in BKK, where will this role be leading, How important is Thailand in this companies structure (and for most MNC's Thailand is a tiny element). On a personal compensation basis I would be asking about healthcare and specifically what company provides it, what exclusions/limitations on cover are there?, How is pension contributions handled?, specifically what accom is on offer, pictures, size, location to office etc.

Once you have those facts you should be in a better position to decide.

[Dakhar]

What is your school loan status? I ask because if you are paying 550 USD a month for school loans, that will take a significant chunck out of your income in Thailand.

A million baht a year is really considered GOOD pay, but you may want to think about carrer goals etc.

[TRIPxCORE]

For Thailand and for Thai people, that is very good money. College grads here and even MBA's are not paid vast sums of money because this is a 3rd world country. If it is not enough for you, which only you can decide, then stay in AU or another 1st world country and make better money. Simple as that.

[SDH]

I have just been made an offer for a position (middle management) with a large multinational insurance company.  The position is based in Bangkok, with the following key requirements:

- MBA from top tier B-school in Europe/Australia/US

- around 5 years experience

I have been offered:

- USD $25,000 base salary per year

- Accommodation for 2 years

- USD$1000 relocate allowance

I am not sure if this is the right kind of money for an MBA graduate in Thailand.  The figure seems pretty low, given that they only want western grads with western experience. 

Anyone have an idea whats the right ballpark?  any website that gives salary range for MBA grads working thailand?

cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know about MBA grads but for a Thai to get a visa card they need to have a salaried position that pays a minimum of 30 k/baht a month...That's a whooping 731 US/d a month, this is for up and comers as I've been told a visa is very hard to get in Thailand. Now I've got no idea what middle management is anymore so.....

[think_too_mut]

90k AUD is 2,742,183.77 THB

What about tax?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In 1998. I was on 90K A$ and was taking home 5300A$ per month. That was before GST (VAT tax reform), now could be 5500A$ per month.

That's roughly 165K baht. Had I had to pay the rent for the place I was paying off morgage for, that would be cost of about 50K baht.

I would take the position offered only if the company could show me a path through their organization I can use to advance.

That would shield me from "why Thailand?" questions in the futire.

[haha]

my 2 cents...

I worked for blue shield of california for about 9 years. so, I know a little about insurance companies.

first off, if your monthly compensation is about 2500 dollars a month, you are somewhere in the 28% something tax bracket. ..this is a guess.

that being the case, your gross monthly income (again, I'm guessing here) is about 3500 dollars a month or 40k+ us dollars a year.

for many jobs in the insurance business, this is good pay. the only exceptions at the mid-level would be if you are an actuarial or a sales person.

20 years ago, actuarials who passed the "exams" were commanding 100k+ us dollars a year. who knows what it would be now?

as for the sales reps who sold on commission, their monthly take is an entirely different story.

40k+ us dollars a year is good pay for your average mid-level insurance person back in the states.

coupled with the fact that you will be living in thailand, your money goes a long way here.

personally, I would take the job because I like thailand. but that is me. everybody is different.

on the other hand, if you are an actuarial, and young, you might be hurting your job career by moving here. ..going from 100k+ to 40k+ is a big difference. in this situation, I would rather work at home, and take long vacation in thailand.

it's not unheard of for people to take sabbaticals, so, that is an option you could do to try the job out while still keeping your old job.

we had people who took 6 months off at blue shield for varioius reasons. maybe you could do that just to "test" the waters. nobody needed to know.

for the curious out there...

in the 9 years I worked at blue shield, I started as a rater doing manual rates for 100+ and small groups via ten-key. developed a computer program in dbase/foxbase/foxpro that automated the manual rating process for all health, catastrophic, drug, life. amd dental plans at blue shield which than lead to the automation of the underwriting process at blue shield.

my job titles went from rater to underwriter, network administrator, programmer to systems analyst during the years at blue shield.

...long history.

happy to be living thailand now where it doesn't cost an arm or a leg to have a good time.

[GuestHouse]

Full expat deals in Thailand work out at around $180K, inclusive of salary, uplift for overseas location, local living allowances, vacation flights home, medical insurance, pension payments (uplifted) - School fees increase this figure.

Settling in allowances are generally around $1.5K but to this you need to add shipping allowances, usually around an extra $1.5K.

The deal you are being offered is a pittence and my own experience is that the deal above (engineering deal) left me feeling like a pauper when I met people working in finance on the real financial industry deal.

Oh and don't forget work permits and visas, these should be clearly stated in your T&Cs.

[kiwi_kid]

I had a chat with the CEO last night. I eluded to him about the low pay. He brushed it off saying its still above what a Thai grad would get. he is on an expat deal and so are all the farangs in the office.

My biggest concern is that i wont be able to save enough in the first couple of years to pay off my students loan.

secondly, i will become an "asia expert", which means it may not be easy for me to come back to australia/nz.

the job is great, the career advancement superb, and i will learn a truck load. but its limited to thailand/asian markets.

may be its early days to go and work in asia??

[GuestHouse]

My feeling is, given that you are young, presumably want to capitalize on your education and NEED security for the future, the best advice would be work elsewhere, earn real money and holiday in Thailand.

I left Thailand at precisely the point my employers started talking about ‘local deals’.

I spent a part of today reviewing my pension provisions/savings and investments – things are looking up for early retirement.

Having done my porridge, but also having earned some coin, I get to choose later in life.

And believe me, I know when we are younger we want to have the good times now – but it doesn’t get any easier when we get older. The fact is I’m really looking forward to calling in the investments.

Investments you can’t afford to make on $25K a year.

[Jim 50]

I had a chat with the CEO last night.  I eluded to him about the low pay.  He brushed it off saying its still above what a Thai grad would get.  he is on an expat deal and so are all the farangs in the office.

My biggest concern is that i wont be able to save enough in the first couple of years to pay off my students loan.

secondly, i will become an "asia expert", which means it may not be easy for me to come back to australia/nz.

the job is great, the career advancement superb, and i will learn a truck load.  but its limited to thailand/asian markets.

may be its early days to go and work in asia??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You could take the job for 6 months. You will make OK money compared to locals and expat teachers, learn alot about BKK and have a good time to boot. But for your future earning potential you will need to get back to AU, don't get stuck in BKK earning a pittance.

[chonabot]

Very good question tukyleith... 

Why would someone come to Thailand and earn 1/3 of what they could in (presumably) Australia?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would happily come and work in Thailand on 33% of my current salary, but the wife would not.....

[Dakhar]

My biggest concern is that i wont be able to save enough in the first couple of years to pay off my students loan.

secondly, i will become an "asia expert", which means it may not be easy for me to come back to australia/nz.

The school loans I can understand, I can understand those objections.

Any how, being and Asian expert, I would think would be a plus. When you look at the growth of China, which is not going to stop any time soon. You could be making huge bucks. Retire young, and live anywhere you want, Aus, NZ.. etc.

I wish I had an MBA, those degrees give people a lot of job options.

For me, I just have to dig in, save the bucks and wait until I can afford to live/retire in Thailand. I hope to do that in 2 years. Estimated date, Feb of 2008!

[steveromagnino]

Kiwi Kid

For starters, I'd say the salary is a little on the light side; and especially if you are working for all farang here, you stand the risk of never becoming invaluable and also not really seeing much of Thailand... so you need to make this decision on the basis of is the money right, rather than a i want to see the world decision.

For big money, Kiwis usually go to the UK and save like crazy. Bear in mind that the student loan scheme won't have a write off once you live abroad. So you need to save a lot quickly to pay it back, or the interest will accumulate mighty quick.

At the moment, with that sort of experience and an MBA, you'd probably be looking at a salary of at least double the Thai salary, at least. You can ignore many of the postings about INSEAD etc simply because as a NZer you may not be able to get the work permit and so on to work in USA/France etc.

Regarding tax, if you are here more than 181 days, you are a non-resident for tax purposes, and only pay tax here, which is indeed something like 28%.

Now, Thai people with that experience earning that much.... many of my Thai friends are in that situation, MBA/Masters from USA/England; 5 years experience, and they are earning around that amount; some less some a lot more... so this is not a massive salary by local standards. Bear in mind that they also have the benefits of:

- free place to live (parents usually)

- they eat local food and don't need to eat steak all the time

- know how to get around/have car

and your 25k USD starts to look not so hot.

I used to earn about that here, and even with all my family connections and stuff, it is not that easy to save money. You will burn through cash when family come over; friends come visit; you have to go back home once a year/twice a year etc - on $25k USD especially if you cannot speak Thai (and I can) and eat the local food etc you won't be getting ahead; don't see that you could easily pay off your student loan. I think anything from about $35k USD a year, and you are living a reasonably decent life, with some money left over.

Bear in mind, a business job here requires status symbols; suits, ties, shoes, briefcase etc - all those "image" things you cannot be wearing copies and rubbish - although I am coming at this from working in an industry where appearances are kind of important. Not all industries would be like this, but I am not sure.

I know how NZers don't really like Asia, but that is the Radio Pacific geriatrics and general middle NZ; for business the reality is that NZ is totally part of Asia and needs people who know what is going on. Depending on the industry this could be more or less relevent; I think you need to look at your indsutry to see; for instance retail banking Asia knowledge not that I could see be useful; investment banking, Asia knowledge really important.

Jai Dee - you ask why would someone come to Thailand and earn 1/3 what they could in Aussie?!

Well, my friend, I think the answer is that in Australia they have to pay Kiwis 3 times more, in order to compensate for the excessive number of f&*king Aussies all over the place!!

No worries though, I think 1/2 of New Zealand is living in Sydney on benefits these days

More seriously, I would say if you could earn decent money in Australia, you could afford to pop up here for weekends, holidays, and life would not be so bad. Certainly career perspectives in NZ, simply, suck, unless you want to start your own business and then it is much harder to start something in NZ than Australia....

OK, what a ramble!~ hope something helps.

[Jai Dee]

Jai Dee - you ask why would someone come to Thailand and earn 1/3 what they could in Aussie?!

Well, my friend, I think the answer is that in Australia they have to pay Kiwis 3 times more, in order to compensate for the excessive number of f&*king Aussies all over the place!!

No worries though, I think 1/2 of New Zealand is living in Sydney on benefits these days    

Good one Steve!!!

[think_too_mut]

My biggest concern is that i wont be able to save enough in the first couple of years to pay off my students loan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does not the loan repayment kick in when you start earning over certain amount? 38K or something?

[samran]

It all depends on how you spend your money....

USD$ 25K works out to about 83K per month before tax. Roughly 65K/month after tax.

Not great, but your accomodation is paid for. A healthy mix of Farang food on weekends and Thai during the week, going out on the piss once a week (but not the girls), cable TV and aircon at night, plus a few holidays here and there through out the year should average out to about 30K per month.

It means you could potentially save around 35K per month, which is more than NZD$1200 per month. Not bad all considered, plus the asian experince thrown in. Its doable if you are a good saver and you aren't tempted by the girls.