U.S.A. Threatened With Most Overtly Ant-Gay President In History

[Jingthing]

s/b anti-gay, not ant-gay; ant-gay that's kind of funny, maybe a new kind of chic ant farm

Actually, Bachman could also qualify for that honor, but her campaign is fading. Perry looks to have an excellent chance at the republican nomination, and of course Obama being weakened by a historically bad economy, this could definitely happen.

When people claim the tea party is only about deficits, don't you believe them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/rick-perry-is-no-libertarian/2011/08/30/gIQA6IsbqJ_story.html

In the book’s most talked-about passage, he likens homosexuality to alcoholism. “Even if an alcoholic is powerless over alcohol once it enters his body, he still makes a choice to drink,” Perry writes. “And, even if someone is attracted to a person of the same sex, he or she will makes a choice to engage in sexual activity with someone of the same gender.”

Imagine those words crossing Bush’s lips. Or these: “The radical homosexual movement seeks societal normalization of their sexual activity. . . . They must respect the right of millions in society to refuse to normalize their behavior.”

[tombkk]

Wow. I only judge from the bit you have posted, as the link won't open. If anybody likens homosexuality to alcoholism, I would think he has experience with the two. I do know men who describe having sex with men as a vortex they need to stay away of lest it sucks them in.... all descriptions for closet homosexuals.

Men who are really straight do not feel threatened by gays.

[endure]

I always find it remarkable that a supposedly secular country gets its knickers in such a twist over religion. If any prospective politician tried pulling the religious bullshit in the UK he'd lose his deposit and get laughed out of town.

[Jingthing]

I always find it remarkable that a supposedly secular country gets its knickers in such a twist over religion. If any prospective politician tried pulling the religious bullshit in the UK he'd lose his deposit and get laughed out of town.

It's not really remarkable considering the cultural differences. It is very annoying though.

[endure]

What about the 'separation of church and state'? In the UK we actually have an Established church - the Church of England is the 'official' church and its unelected Bishops take part in making the law in the House of Lords but we never get the hysteria over religion that you get in the US

[Jingthing]

What about the 'separation of church and state'? In the UK we actually have an Established church - the Church of England is the 'official' church and its unelected Bishops take part in making the law in the House of Lords but we never get the hysteria over religion that you get in the US

The vast majority of Americans believe in God and identify with a religion. You can't say the same thing about the vast majority of Europeans. Like I said, it's a cultural difference. The American right wing actively challenges the separation of the Christian God and state; instead they maintain that the founding fathers intended a Christian nation.

[endure]

What about the 'separation of church and state'? In the UK we actually have an Established church - the Church of England is the 'official' church and its unelected Bishops take part in making the law in the House of Lords but we never get the hysteria over religion that you get in the US

The vast majority of Americans believe in God and identify with a religion. You can't say the same thing about the vast majority of Europeans.

Hello? Ever heard of the Vatican? Over a BILLION members? Or Protestantism in Northern Europe?

[SteeleJoe]

What about the 'separation of church and state'? In the UK we actually have an Established church - the Church of England is the 'official' church and its unelected Bishops take part in making the law in the House of Lords but we never get the hysteria over religion that you get in the US

The vast majority of Americans believe in God and identify with a religion. You can't say the same thing about the vast majority of Europeans.

Hello? Ever heard of the Vatican? Over a BILLION members? Or Protestantism in Northern Europe?

There are over a billion Catholics in Europe?

I think statistic would (somewhat unfortunately, to my mind) support Jingthing's posit: an overwhelming majority of Americans identify themselves as religious and the same is not so in Europe. Pointing out the fact that there are religious people in Europe doesn't change that.

As for "hysteria" -- well that's just loaded and pejorative rhetoric to me.

Religion is politicized in the US. Almost entirely as a means to gain votes but also by some in the hopes of advancing a religious agenda. But it that is very contentious and creates controversy and news precisely because the US has separation of church and state and the majority of the people -- even many of those whom are religious -- generally recognize that and are in favor of it.

So it's a battle between those two opposing forces. Hysteria? Uhhhmmm...if you say so.

[endure]

The title of the thread was "U.S.A. Threatened With Most Overtly Ant-Gay President In History "

Hysteria? I think so.

[endure]

What about the 'separation of church and state'? In the UK we actually have an Established church - the Church of England is the 'official' church and its unelected Bishops take part in making the law in the House of Lords but we never get the hysteria over religion that you get in the US

The vast majority of Americans believe in God and identify with a religion. You can't say the same thing about the vast majority of Europeans.

Hello? Ever heard of the Vatican? Over a BILLION members? Or Protestantism in Northern Europe?

There are over a billion Catholics in Europe?

No but hyperbole deserves its own response.

[David006]

..."religion" is just used like a "race card"...

Religion is politics...because it's the quintessential "untouchable" among rights and freedoms..

wonder what would happen if, for instance, homosexuals started a "religion" which clearly identifies with same sex union...

Interestingly the old testament would seem to condone sodomy...along with rape,child abuse,genocide,slavery etc" in the name of and under instruction from "the lord" ...

rights and freedoms?....even Lincoln pre civil war, stated, when debating outlawing slavery, that he did not intend to give the black man "equality" to the white man....not something they teach in US schools I bet!

[SteeleJoe]

The title of the thread was "U.S.A. Threatened With Most Overtly Ant-Gay President In History "

Hysteria? I think so.

Yes, I know the title of that thread. It remains unclear to me how that equates to or is an indication of a state of uncontrolled excitement or extreme fear over religion.

...hyperbole deserves its own response.

Perhaps it does. Does it deserve a response that is relevant? Because yours wasn't as far as I can work out. And which hyperbole were you referring to anyway? I didn't see it. (Other than the "hysteria" nonsense).In any case, apparently the bulk of my previous post doesn't deserve a response...

[tombkk]

..."religion" is just used like a "race card"...

Religion is politics...because it's the quintessential "untouchable" among rights and freedoms..

wonder what would happen if, for instance, homosexuals started a "religion" which clearly identifies with same sex union...

Of course there is the Metropolitain Community Church, which is a Christian denomination that welcomes gays and lesbians. When I had contact with some members, the idea of same-sex marriage was not on the table yet, but I can well imagine that they are in favour of it.

But that's not a new religion you are asking for. My answer is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Yes my friends, the FSM is our friend: http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/139500

The only problem is that in a secular state, it depends on the law and not the religion whether marriage has the effect that you pay less taxes as a couple than as individuals, can visit each other in hospital of you are really sick, or are considered a spouse in inheritance disputes.

[endure]

..."religion" is just used like a "race card"...

Religion is politics...because it's the quintessential "untouchable" among rights and freedoms..

wonder what would happen if, for instance, homosexuals started a "religion" which clearly identifies with same sex union...

Of course there is the Metropolitain Community Church, which is a Christian denomination that welcomes gays and lesbians. When I had contact with some members, the idea of same-sex marriage was not on the table yet, but I can well imagine that they are in favour of it.

In the UK there's also the Society of Friends (the Quakers), the Unitarians and Liberal Jews who successfully petitioned for civil partnerships to be held in places of religious worship - a practice which was forbidden when the Act was first passed.

[LeCharivari]

What about the 'separation of church and state'? In the UK we actually have an Established church - the Church of England is the 'official' church and its unelected Bishops take part in making the law in the House of Lords but we never get the hysteria over religion that you get in the US

But its still only 26 out of around 800, as well as the present (and previous) Chief Rabbi and four Muslims one of whom (Lord Waheed Alli) is openly and actively gay and who led the repeal of Section 28, the lowering of the age of homosexual consent, the Civil Partnership Act and the right for Civil Partnerships to be held in places of worship that you referred to.

Unfortunately another Muslim peer is currently suspended for fiddling her expenses and Catholic clerics can't sit in the House of Lords as they aren't allowed to do so by Canon (not British) law - Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor had to turn down a life peerage even though he was retired as Archbishop of Westminster.

[Jingthing]

The title of the thread was "U.S.A. Threatened With Most Overtly Ant-Gay President In History "

Hysteria? I think so.

I don't think so at all. I think perhaps you don't know much about USA presidential history. First of all, it was only in modern times when gay was even an issue discussed by politicians. So how can presidents who said nothing in the public record on the issue at all be included? So all of the oldies are out of this worst president for gays competition. So we are starting in more modern times when gay has become actually a very visible public issue. I don't know of any past president who said said anything in the public record that comes even close to as bad as what Perry (and Bachmann) has said. So instead of insulting with your presumptions of hysteria, NAME the specific president and quotes which are indeed worse.

Next ...

[endure]

The previous Chief Rabbi was no friend to gays:

"Homosexuality is a disability and if people wish to have it eliminated before they have children - because they wish to have grandchildren or for other reasons - I do not see any moral objection for using genetic engineering to limit this particular trend. It would be like correcting many other conditions such as infertility or multiple sclerosis.

Lord Jakobovits, former chief rabbi, July 1993"

Someone ought to have told him that it wasn't just Jews who rode the trains to Auschwitz.

[Jingthing]

Bad rebbe! Bad rebbe!

But he's gone now and was hardly the leader of the free world, as Americans so delightfully describe our presidents.

Right now, we've got a live threat on our hands, the Rick Perry character. Actually if ANY republican gets elected (ignoring the oddball Ron Paul who has no chance) it will be a huge setback for gay rights in America just based on even one potential right wing supreme court appointment alone.

[endure]

It's not just us he's after. I read in the Times that he wants to repeal Roe v. Wade too.

[Jingthing]

It's not just us he's after. I read in the Times that he wants to repeal Roe v. Wade too.

Of course! The American right wing "social issues" or "culture wars" as Fox News likes to put it includes a predictable package.

Hostile to the science of global warming

Christian teaching in public schools

Anti-gay rights

Anti-abortion rights

Bizarrely in favor of promoting unhealthy obese making eating habits, deep fried butter, etc.

Opposing teaching evolution as science or at least teaching watered down fake Christian pseudo-science as an equal alternative in science classes

Making history books reflect right wing ideology, wiping out any history or people that doesn't fit the message

In favor of cutting any government money for the ARTS even though that has never been more than a tiny fraction of one percent of total spending

Putting Ronald Reagan on American money and Mount Rushmore

[Ijustwannateach]

It doesn't make it any less scary what the consequences could be, that it is also ridiculous. I'm not one to stand up for the silliness of Americans OR the silliness of people in other countries. One could say that part of the reason the US is so bizarre about religion is that we were founded on religious inanity. Because of our financial and military clout, that inanity has echoes all over the world; NGOs have found that our homophobic, religious silliness has financial teeth.

I keep hoping that the continuing failure of all the conservative administrations (basically everyone during my lifetime) to provide financial and economic security for American families will lead to their discredit; but unfortunately our education is too far behind for reality to matter anymore, apparently.

It will take very dark days for Americans to wake up; and I think they are on the way.

[isanbirder]

Perhaps all of us, not only Americans, should realise that the polarisation of homophobia is in part due to the increased visibility of gays. When people didn't see us, they didn't talk about us so much.

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't have become so visible, just that we should understand that it has the effect of driving those most opposed to us further away still.

Things have progressed fast, generally in our favour, but don't expect the road forward to be without potholes every now and then.

[tombkk]

It's not just us he's after. I read in the Times that he wants to repeal Roe v. Wade too.

Of course! The American right wing "social issues" or "culture wars" as Fox News likes to put it includes a predictable package.

Hostile to the science of global warming

Christian teaching in public schools

Anti-gay rights

Anti-abortion rights

Bizarrely in favor of promoting unhealthy obese making eating habits, deep fried butter, etc.

Opposing teaching evolution as science or at least teaching watered down fake Christian pseudo-science as an equal alternative in science classes

Making history books reflect right wing ideology, wiping out any history or people that doesn't fit the message

In favor of cutting any government money for the ARTS even though that has never been more than a tiny fraction of one percent of total spending

Putting Ronald Reagan on American money and Mount Rushmore

What you are describing doesn't sound like a sophisticated and developed country. But sure, it is up to the citizens of any country to choose their leaders.

The problem is that the president of the US is the most powerful person in the world. And therefore, it would be fair and correct if he or she is elected by the population of the whoe world, rather than only by the Americans. Think about it.

Of course, the last issue in your list (about what face to put on American money or some mountain) is something nobody outside of the US cares about. You are free to make your own decisions.

[SteeleJoe]

The problem is that the president of the US is the most powerful person in the world. And therefore, it would be fair and correct if he or she is elected by the population of the whoe world, rather than only by the Americans. Think about it.

OK, thought about it -- no offense but...that is truly one of the dumbest, most absurd ideas I've ever heard.

(And it would be neither fair nor correct )

[Jingthing]

Of course, the last issue in your list (about what face to put on American money or some mountain) is something nobody outside of the US cares about. You are free to make your own decisions.

I wouldn't mind seeing the gipper on a two dollar bill but Rock Hudson may be more apt.

[tombkk]

The problem is that the president of the US is the most powerful person in the world. And therefore, it would be fair and correct if he or she is elected by the population of the whoe world, rather than only by the Americans. Think about it.

OK, thought about it -- no offense but...that is truly one of the dumbest, most absurd ideas I've ever heard.

(And it would be neither fair nor correct )

[tombkk]

Of course, the last issue in your list (about what face to put on American money or some mountain) is something nobody outside of the US cares about. You are free to make your own decisions.

I wouldn't mind seeing the gipper on a two dollar bill but Rock Hudson may be more apt.

Let's take a vote...

[Ijustwannateach]

Jingthing presents an accurate picture of the agendas of the right-wing fascist sector of American politics, which naturally doesn't depict America in a very sophisticated light- but neither do many agendas of the nationalist/fascist parties of most European nations. I think our particular and unique stupidity is our hangup publicly on a toxic combination of sex, religion, and politics- which, though it is primarily a right-wing agenda, and would not likely be raised by left-wing groups in the absence of those influences, is forced into public discussion even by more sensible types elsewhere on the US political spectrum because of the clout of those morons. As I mentioned before, just because it is ridiculous doesn't mean it's not dangerous- having the number of nuclear missiles that we do, in a country so eminently unsuited for international power, is another example. So it seems to me that blaming the messengers (such as Jingthing) simply because the content of the warning is ridiculous is somewhat missing the point of the warning.

I mean, the last time we had fascist right wing idiots in charge, the UK wound up in a ridiculous Iraqi war.

[endure]

I mean, the last time we had fascist right wing idiots in charge, the UK wound up in a ridiculous Iraqi war.

The last time you had fascist right wing idiots in charge the UK had a gormless arse-licking poodle for a Prime Minister.

[LeCharivari]

The previous Chief Rabbi was no friend to gays:

"Homosexuality is a disability and if people wish to have it eliminated before they have children - because they wish to have grandchildren or for other reasons - I do not see any moral objection for using genetic engineering to limit this particular trend. It would be like correcting many other conditions such as infertility or multiple sclerosis.

Lord Jakobovits, former chief rabbi, July 1993"

Someone ought to have told him that it wasn't just Jews who rode the trains to Auschwitz.

Wow, I'd never realised that.