The End Of Buddhism In Thailand.

[fabianfred]

by Fabian Frederick Blandford on Thursday, 01 September 2011 at 04:07

One of the monks at our temple posted a sign on the wall of the Sala saying how he was afraid that the Buddhist

religion was in danger of disappearing from the Lanna culture and asking what could be done to stop it.

Nothing......(IMHO). Religion, as everything, is subject to impermanence. Religion is people..... the understanding, faith, belief of people, so as they misunderstand, disbelieve, lose faith and respect, the religion deteriorates and eventually disappears.

Buddha said that as long as there was no false Dhamma then the true Dhamma would survive. As long as there are those who teach and practice the Four Foundations of Mindfulness there will be Stream-enterers and thence Arahants.

People who ordain as monks and novices, not out of desire to practice, desire to escape Samsara, but because it is an easier life than working, and with a desire for the offerings made by lay-followers, are false monks, false novices. Making no effort to practice or to keep the Vinaya they do not know the true Dhamma by personal experience, but only what is learned from others. They are a bad example to other monks and novices and the good lay-people lose respect for them. The good monks who wish to practice and keep the Vinaya are few in number. The false monks, seeing the good monks practice and keeping the Vinaya will feel annoyed, knowing inside that they should be doing the same, but lazyiness has been allowed to run for too long, the defilements have been allowed to have their way, so change is too difficult. The sight of the good monks will be a thorn in the side of the false monks. The good monks will feel uncomfortable surrounded by those unwilling to practice and keep their precepts. The false monks will enjoy making a noise and playing music, the distractions of lay-people who know nothing of mindfulness, and when the good monks complain that they cannot find peace and quiet the false monks will say to them "you are the minority here, if you desire peace and quiet then go elsewhere". So the good monks will be driven from the temples ruled by the false monks, to seek peace and quiet in the forests and jungles.

The false monks will teach people the false Dhamma, saying, "there is no need to trouble yourself and sit in meditation for a long time and be uncomfortable. Just make merit with many offerings and do some chanting with us and you will be assured a place in heaven...". The way to Nibbana, the way to escape Samsara, to escape suffering will not be taught, until eventually Nibanna is disbelieved or thought of as something only for Buddhas. The lay-people who are lazy will enjoy this false Dhamma, it being easier to practice and more pleasant to their ears.

The few lay-people who wish to hear the true Dhamma, to learn how to practice the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, the way to Nibbana, will find it difficult to meet the good monks who no longer inhabit the temples but live in the forests and jungles.

The ordinary Thai villagers are not rich, but are also not so poor as to have nothing to eat. They might be considered poor when judged by Western standards but they believe themselves to have 'enough to live on'. They enjoy life's small pleasures and generally live in hope of a better future. Thailand has embraced the consumer ethic and so has a 'higher standard of living' than surrounding Laos, Cambodia, Burma. The danger is that when we live at a certain standard we find it difficult to fall to a lower level. The more we enjoy life's pleasures the more attached to them we become.

During the IMF period at the end of the 1990's many rich businessmen could not stand to lower their life-styles and committed suicide after their businesses collapsed.

If we are comfortable and enjoying life we do not seek an escape, we hope for a better rebirth to carry on enjoying life. The small pleasure we enjoy and the smallsufferings we put up with. Practicing, doing the hard work required to escape rebirth, is seen as too difficult.

Not too many kilometers away from here in Fang, in Burma, on the borders with Thailand, many Shan and Karen people have had their lives turned upside-down, destroyed, by the persecution of the Burmese Army. For 60 years they have been fighting for freedom in their own lands. Driven to escape from their burning villages, shot, raped, imprisoned, forced to be porters or child soldiers, unpaid, unfed, abused, tortured, they have fled into the jungle, living rough with no food or medicines, watching their children and relatives die, until they could bear no more and had to enter Thailand, to leave their beloved homelands.

They are happy just to be able to survive, even if the only work they get is underpaid, or just living in refugee camps sustained by donations and charities. The desire for life, for existence, overcomes all other desires, and is the most difficult desire to give up. To seek Nibbana, the deathless state, escape rebirth, we need to be dis-satisfied with continued existence.... bored with suffering.... the constant round, the continual cyle of life and death. These Burmese people can not see any future for a better life. No sign that the repressive Government of Burma will change or allow change.... little hope that they will be able to return to their homelands and be simple farmers as before. They have known great loss and suffering, and continue to live in hardship with the constant dear of being forced to return to Burma by the Thai government, where they know they can expect only slavery or death. They are bored with life and the suffering it brings, so they are still very faithful to their Buddhist religion. It brings them some comfort and hope for an eventual release.

In Mae Sot is a school for Shan children, and every day they practice meditation for half an hour, once in the morning as school opens, and once in the afternoon before school closes. One hour each day....putting to shame many monks and novices here in Thailand, who should feel shy about their bettered by a bunch of schoolkids.

My teacher Luang Por Jaran at Wat Amphawan, Singhburi says that in 100 years Buddhism will have disappeared from Thailand.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Fred.

Living on the inside of life as a Monk in Thailand you must have observed many undesirable practices.

I'd say there would be two categories of Monks with lives as you described.

Those who fully know the destructive impact of their actions and those who are ignorant to the consequences of their actions.

Will the Karma of Monks in the second category generate much Duka or will it be tempered by their ignorance of what they do?

In my observation, I can see how a Monk can quite easily fall for the trappings and ego status of his position.

Impressing lay people looking for an exorcism, or to assist an earth bound being who appears in their dreams to move to the next re birth for an envelope stuffed with notes.

If a faithful Monk , practicing Vipassana for over a quarter of a century , can succumb to the temptations of cheese and chocolate what hope have the lay people and uneducated Monks have in adhering to appropriate practice.

Even with correct knowledge of the path, overcoming the 5 hindrances must be more difficult than scaling Mt Everest.

1. Sensual desire (kamacchanda),
2. Ill-will (byapada),
3. Sloth and torpor (thina-middha),
4. Restlessness and remorse (uddhacca-kukkucca),
5. Sceptical doubt (vicikiccha).

Those who you described must have an element of each of these confronting them.

Edited September 1, 2011 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

who succumbed to the temptation of cheese and chocolate, pray tell...... I have been known to crave both (but not in the same sandwich). Did they cause the unfortunate to disrobe then...?

Of course, the practice is difficult....and boring...but one has to realise that it is far easier than continual rebirth and consequent suffering.

Even ignorant monks and novices know what the precpets mean, so if they decide to break them they cannot say "oh well, all the others were doing the same too.."....zero excuse IMHO......

another reason why the Buddha said that associating with bad friends is so dangerous.

[Xangsamhua]

FabianFred:

My teacher Luang Por Jaran at Wat Amphawan, Singhburi says that in 100 years Buddhism will have disappeared from Thailand.

Your comments are very insightful and thoughtful, Fred. You seem to agree with Luang Por Jaran, but do you mean that Buddhism will disappear (within 100 years?) in Thailand or that the present form of "Buddhism" here will be gone? Do you believe that the Dhamma will not be heard and practised or that the Sangha in its present form will have become extinct?

The Sangha of renunciates has been historically both the refuge for those seeking escape from samsara and the vehicle for teaching Dhamma to the laypeople, but as you say, it is not and does not have to be permanent. There are different ways of being Sangha than the way it is in Thailand, or, with some variation, in other Theravada countries. Lay people are no longer dependent on the Sangha for teaching, and if what you say is true about conscientious monks being a minority in their temples, then the Sangha is no longer a supportive refuge. I suspect though that authentic Dhamma will still attract thoughtful people in Thailand and elsewhere, especially if the next 100 years sees further population pressure, the drying up of resources, economic breakdown, war and civil strife, ethnic and religious hostility, increasing temperatures, water shortages and various kinds of pollution.

Not only will the current ossified structures of Buddhism dissipate over the next few decades, but so will much else of what Thais take for granted and have come to expect. Life might just not be as good as it is now, except for those who subsist on what they grow and produce and continue to do so. Small communities living on Buddhist and self-sufficiency principles may be the envy of others in 100 years' time. I'm thinking of the Asoke communities, if they can maintain their coherence and cohesion after Samana Photirak passes on. Others, within the mainstream of Thai Buddhism, but not attached to the structures, may in a similar fashion come together in small sanghas around the country practising Buddhist principles and keeping the flame of Dhamma alive, but they won't be detached communities of male renunciates, dedicated full time to a separated life and dependent on the laity for their sustenance. They'll be broader and more democratic, in which everyone, women and men, will play productive and mutually supportive roles.

Anyway, we really have no idea of what Thailand will be like in 100 years' time or if there will even be a Thailand. I'm not even sure, despite what I've said above, that there will be any kind of coherent Dhamma being taught and exemplified then, but I suspect there will be at least pockets, and if the next century brings real suffering on a wide scale, Dhamma may be sought after equally widely.

[IMA_FARANG]

fabienfred:

I saw your post this morning,was going to reply,then decided to see what others replied before I made any comment. Only two comments in 12 hours! I'm surprised at that,

Anyhow...since I'm not a monk or even a THAI Buddhist...but of different tradition...all I can say is:

Don't lose heart (I don't think you will). Even within a century or so after the Buddha died there were those who spoke of "these degenerate days" and the "end of Buddhisim" coming soon. And, even then, some monks were called "lazy rice bags and useless wearers of robes". The same things were said, then.

But Buddhisim didn't end then...and I don't think it will now, either.

The reason then was the same as it will be now...because even if only 1 in a 100 hears the Dharma, and responds...the Sangha will be maintained.

The Form may change, but its heart will not change...no matter what the language is, the practice that is used, or any of these externals...the heart will still be there.

Perhaps since it is from another Buddhist teaching tradition you won't recognise this saying, but I'll risk it anyway:

"For this reason, and this reason alone, did the world honored one appear in this earthly plane; to spin the great Wheel of Dharma, so that all sentient beings might see it, and by that seeing overcome the cycle of life and rebirth by their understanding.

(I hope that qoute doesn't sound to "mushy")

[rockyysdt]

who succumbed to the temptation of cheese and chocolate, pray tell...... I have been known to crave both (but not in the same sandwich). Did they cause the unfortunate to disrobe then...?

His name will never be uttered by my lips.

Seriously, I envisaged a conscientious Monk who spends most of his life in a forest setting, practicing full time, and achieving pinnacles of experience along the sixteen stages of anapanasati, would have reached a stage where craving chocolate would easily be dismissed as an attempt by the mind to fool one into fueling their attachment to craving.

If after a quarter of a century of dedicated practice one acts on the thoughts of simple craving then how far behind are we in achieving any level of progress.

I liken it to attempting to empty an ocean with a teaspoon.

Of course, the practice is difficult....and boring...but one has to realise that it is far easier than continual rebirth and consequent suffering.

Even ignorant monks and novices know what the precpets mean, so if they decide to break them they cannot say "oh well, all the others were doing the same too.."....zero excuse IMHO......

another reason why the Buddha said that associating with bad friends is so dangerous.

Although one should never become attached to or seek such experiences, wouldn't the experiences of rapture, bliss, and other states along the way, remove any thought of boredom and light the way, make desire for cheese and chocolate quite pedestrian in comparison?

Edited September 1, 2011 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Your comments are very insightful and thoughtful, Fred. You seem to agree with Luang Por Jaran, but do you mean that Buddhism will disappear (within 100 years?) in Thailand or that the present form of "Buddhism" here will be gone? Do you believe that the Dhamma will not be heard and practised or that the Sangha in its present form will have become extinct?

Not only will the current ossified structures of Buddhism dissipate over the next few decades, but so will much else of what Thais take for granted and have come to expect.

Perhaps the version of Buddhism dying off is the one consisting of practices and beliefs which bear no resemblance to what the Buddha actually taught.

Th version I speak of is the one which is operated, as other religions, with the exaltation of a supreme being, advancement through lucky charms, blessings, misguided merit making and superstition, and generation of wealth through the sale of worthless objects, fortune readings and exorcisms.

Like most religions in the 21st century, as people become more educated, affluent and connected to mass marketing, consumerism is becoming the new religion to new generations.

I don't think this form of Buddhism is very important.

Buddhism which is anchored in the four noble truths and eight fold path,rooted in Dharma, and whose ranks are growing with the likes of Fred, will continue to grow.

Genuine regular practice of Dharma is the key.

Edited September 1, 2011 by rockyysdt

[RickThai]

When life is good, it is easy to ignore religion and spirituality, but all things change.

Thank you for the thought-provoking post.

Rick

[huli]

I've taken a lively interest in this Forum and especially Fabian Fred's postings. I like to hear from a fellow farang, a monk who is "walking the walk" not just "talking the talk", as they say. I live in Chiang Mai with my Thai wife who has roots in Fang, so I guess that makes his postings especially interesting for me as well.

I thought I'd like to put my 2 cents out there in reply for what it's worth as I have a few impressions.

The first I would like to mention is that the idea that something good or very good will go away from this earth soon seems to be a fairly common idea. Think about the people who fret about their country, the environment, armageddon, the family, or ample food, as examples. I'm not saying anything or everything might have an ending, just that it is common for humans to envision such. Along this line, conceiving the end of Buddhism in Thailand, seems just another concept or idea to fret over. Losing something we cherish is obviously one of the common sources of suffering, not that I am in any position to advise FF, quite the contrary. This does not address the truth of the matter, just the idea of worrying about it.

I would respectfully note that the sign was posted by a monk at FF temple, and this monk just happened to do so. It started as an idea, and the monk chose to take it further by posting it. Now, his idea has a life of its own, and has to be accepted or rebutted.

I'm not in any position to judge the extent that fake monks are diluting real Buddhist monks, but I don't doubt some men who are down and out would find provision of food, shelter, clothing and medicine to be a good deal in exchange for keeping enough precepts to get by. It seems like a stretch to expect these fake monks to take over whole temples and drive out the real monks. If the lay people saw that the monks were breaking the precepts openly and substantially, I think they would quit giving offerings or participating in such a temple.

I would suggest that Buddha's teaching has enough inherent value as a counterpoint to materialism/selfishness that it will always be sought after by those whose mind is far above the water in the lotus pond, to borrow a simile.

Although predictions of the future can be made, and then be correct or not, it doesn't seem like worthwhile to stress about such a thing. I understand that a respected monk has made this prediction, but really, is it his role to be a soothsayer? If he does have such powers, did Buddha say to use them?

Those of us on this Forum believe Buddhism offers a tremendous value to mankind. We want to promote Buddhism, and not see people get lost in attachment. So, we are concerned to see Buddhist values marginalized. But, to predict Buddhism will be gone from Thailand in 100 years seems overly and unnecessarily pessimistic.

[fabianfred]

The older generations, what my teacher Supawan Green calls 'The Enlightening Culture' didn't have the distractions of consumerism and TV so they were more devout in their practice. Now they have those things and are easily seduced by them. The gradual deterioration of the quality of new monks who ordain simply for the custom and ritual will naturally have an effect too.

As I said before, there are more than 300 temples in Chiangmai province without any monks in residence, and over 400 in Chiangrai province, and probably similar across the country, although I might suspect the poorer Issan to be better than average. Often poor people have more faith.

I don't think LP Jaran elaborated upon the reasons for loss of Buddhism here so i cannot guess. He also predicted that one day the Thai people will have no homeland. I tried to imagine why this might be and came up with this idea...... We all know how the breakup of communism in Eastern Europe cause a flood of people breaking away from their former countries with their new found freedom, and being quite a burden upon the richer Nations in Western Europe. One day, inevitably, communism in China will end, and this could cause a tidal wave of Chinese to swamp the surrounding countries...perhaps dislodging the Thais or diluting them into insignificance.

just an idea....anyone else have any?

Edited September 2, 2011 by fabianfred

[dutchguest]

Will Buddhism disappear?

Certainly in its present form. Only the form can change. The essence, truth is eternal.

We see a tendency that society and science take over the role of religion. Education, charity etc. become more and more a wordly affair. Superstitions cannot survive in a scientific, rational mind. But I.m.o. buddhism, as thaught by the Buddha, is rather scientific, in some ways even going deeper and being more scientific then the present level of academic science. The exploration of the inner world goes much further and deeper and is more scientific then the present state of affairs in academic scientific psychology. Concerning the outer world (academic) science is the way to go. So I.m.o. there will be a slow integration of buddhism, religion and science and what name we give this child is not so relevant. The search to overcome suffering and find its causes will never end.

Will Thailand still exist over 100 year?

Who knows. Certainly not in its present form. There is a globalisation going on that has the tendency to unify the whole world and make the role of seperate countries less important. New technology, television, internet, airplanes make it a small world that is changing very quickly at the moment. To survive economically countries, e.g. in europe and south east asia, combine forces and give away some autonomy to supra-national organisations. This tendency will I.m.o. become stronger and stronger so that national autonomy will slowly disappear. Just like in the past the autonomy of the Lanna kingdom has been taken over by the national Thai state.

[spacedcowboy]

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

As a westerner I have been constantly been bombarded by consumerism technological distractions and a life of wealth and abundance since the day I was born.

However the realisation that these distractions weren't the answer to more a skillful way of living, which I eventually discovered through Buddhism and the practice of meditation led to wisdom.

My point being these disraction played a major motivation in propelling me forward to a more aware way of being.

I therefore know the majority of people that I speak to are becoming more aware that this consumerism driven abundant lifestyle will never provide true lasting happiness and therefore I believe the practice of meditation and the study of Buddhism will only increase.

[fabianfred]

The trouble is, that by the time people realise that consumerism does not bring happiness there will be few opportunities left to meet the true Dhamma and be taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Learning from a book is hardly possible since you cannot ask a book questions and get advice from it. Real teachers will become more difficult to find.

The globalisation coming about is not done to make everyone one big happy family, but for business purposes. One currency, one nation policies are engineered by the global elite who desire only control and power.

[Xangsamhua]

The trouble is, that by the time people realise that consumerism does not bring happiness there will be few opportunities left to meet the true Dhamma and be taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Learning from a book is hardly possible since you cannot ask a book questions and get advice from it. Real teachers will become more difficult to find.

Some time ago I raised the question of whether, in a post-oral age, the teacher-student/guru-luuksit relationship was the best one or the only one for a student of Dhamma.

There was only one response, from Sabaijai, so maybe the question is not one of interest or was asked at the wrong time. However, Fred has now expressed concern that, as Buddhism declines in Thailand we will be left without teachers who can guide us and answer our questions, and suggests that this is a better way to learn than by reading. Having never had a guru, a teacher of this kind, I can't disagree, but I wonder if the unavailability of gurus is such a loss.

There are other sources of explanation and instruction readily available now - not only books, but online journals, blogs and forums. I sometimes visit a forum that has "resident teachers" (i.e. ordained Zen priests online for substantial periods each day) and have asked significant questions that have been answered by the teachers, whose responses have then led to substantial comment by other members. The teachers are authoritative, but not the sole voice, and are at times challenged.

Reading books should also not be a one-way process. The reader can and should respond to the author at all points along the journey, clarifying, investigating, referring, reflecting, and so on. Google and Wikipedia, though one must be careful in using these sources, too, are helpful and make the follow-through in reading so much easier than before. A good author will also provide plenty of references and sources to both back up what he/she is saying and enable further study.

And, provided the author is still alive , there's no reason why one can't contact him/her and ask questions. I did so a few months ago when reading Joanna Essen's Right Development, about the Srisa Asoke Buddhist community in Sisaket. I noticed a couple of printer's errors in the book and wrote to ask her what should have been there. She responded very quickly and this led to three or four helpful and pleasant emails on her work. Authors can be easily contacted these days. In fact, some have their own websites and invite comment to which they will respond.

[bankei]

Hi Fred

Buddhism will be around for a lot longer than another 100 years I think. There have been 'bad' monks around since the time of the Buddha. What about the monk who kept a pet monkey for sexual pleasure because it was forbidden to have sex with women.

Even just after the Buddha died there was a dispute in Vesali regarding 10 points of vinaya (from memory). Also, monks were not supposed to handle money, but archeaological evidence shows some monks were counterfeiting currencies in their monasteries in ancient India (from Schopen).

There will always be good and bad monks and the bad will always out number the good.

[spacedcowboy]

The trouble is, that by the time people realise that consumerism does not bring happiness there will be few opportunities left to meet the true Dhamma and be taught the Four Foundations of Mindfulness. Learning from a book is hardly possible since you cannot ask a book questions and get advice from it. Real teachers will become more difficult to find.

The globalisation coming about is not done to make everyone one big happy family, but for business purposes. One currency, one nation policies are engineered by the global elite who desire only control and power.

In my experience good teachers are far and few between, getting access to the "good" teachers (and I am aware there are some) for advice on the Four Foundations has been problematic for me, this is just my experience.

I have therefore relied heavily on any resource including books which provide answers to burning questions, because that was all that was available at the time, not ideal I know but you make the best of what you have got.

I have made and will continue to make mistakes but like the saying goes "meditation is just one long series of mistakes." and these mistakes become more apparent, quicker and with developing awareness

My understanding to date has been and is achieved experentially with minimum input from a teacher versed in instructing in the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and it works for me, like I say I would love to have had a teacher but hey its all worked out ok in the end.

Actually that reminds me of my first time in a Monastery, I arrived looking for some really in depth profound advice from the Abbot and all I ever got in advice was "just follow the breath, just follow the breath" frustrating at the time but makes me smile now.

[sabaijai]

The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.

As a westerner I have been constantly been bombarded by consumerism technological distractions and a life of wealth and abundance since the day I was born.

However the realisation that these distractions weren't the answer to more a skillful way of living, which I eventually discovered through Buddhism and the practice of meditation led to wisdom.

My point being these disraction played a major motivation in propelling me forward to a more aware way of being.

I therefore know the majority of people that I speak to are becoming more aware that this consumerism driven abundant lifestyle will never provide true lasting happiness and therefore I believe the practice of meditation and the study of Buddhism will only increase.

I was going to write something similar. Consumerism can lead to nibbida, and it has in many westerners, including, I would guess, in the case of Fabian Fred and many other westerners who have ordained.

So personally I wouldn't despair. Indeed, it seems like a form of aversion, worrying about whether Buddhism will not survive. The truth never dies.

[patient]

There is another type of disease here in the West - and it goes by the name 'secular Buddhism'. The beliefs are not consistent amongst its different adherents but include things such as:

- Buddha 'needed' to repeat his experience of enlightment ie once achieved it was lost and that was why he 'needed' to keep practicing

- Enlightment/nibbana is an ongoing process not an achievement - ie the goal is the 4th enobling truth ie 8 fold path and not ceasation of suffering

- suffering causes craving - not the other way around

- there is no rebirth - atheist view or...

- there may be rebirth - agnostic view. Those parts of the suttas discussing rebirth are dismissed as the Budda merely 'fitting in' with current believes of the day.

- no rituals or believes or faith only what can be seen and experienced for oneself - rationale is in the Kālāma Sutta - taken out of context it seems

- it seems the essence of the secular Buddhist practice is meditation; dana and sila are of much less importance - to me this is like an upside pryamid

- rejection of monastic way of life as it is seen as lacking in a social contribution as well as institutional religion/corrupt - definitely elements of validity there-(but is there a need to throw out the baby with the bath water?). I think it reflects our western sensibilities - we feel discomfort in bowing down to someone or generally treating someone as 'superior' because we were brought up in a 'democratic world where we are all equal'.

I am sure I have failed to express these points accurately (and definitely not completely) as it is from memory - look up Stephen Batchelor et al to get a more correct picture. There are a fair few blogs out there holding forth on secular or skeptical Buddhism.

These beliefs are gaining popularity with western Buddhists (and more widely).

Psychology seems to have fallen in love with mindfulness practice and rejected the other elements of Buddhism. Secular Buddhism's 'take what we like and leave the rest that doesn't fit our beliefs' reflects a similiar attitude. For example, we are relatively wealthy in the West (in general!) and the idea of dana is difficult to practice - there is so much we can spend our money on and that is why we pay taxes: "the govt takes care of the poor it is not our individual responsibility" - we have lost the habit of generosity outside of the family it seems. Further the idea of sila is difficult to practice given free choice is a deeply loved and key democratic freedom.

I feel that certain historical Buddhist ideals are being undermined here in the West in a most lethal way - into a socially and ideologically palatable version - protestant/secular Buddhism.

Without doubt there are good intentions and ideals behind this new approach: "We are hoping to practice Buddhism without the baggage" - I interpret this to mean without cultural biases but it overlooks our own Western biases especially the intellectualism and therapisation (is that a word?) of Buddhism. While it is important to acknowledge the good intentions it seems to me that much of it is offered and discussed based on ignorance/conceit and limited experience without regard to the wisdom of past and present teachers particularly if they happen to wear robes (in some quarters monasticism is fought with a passion because in part of its corruption and corrupting influence as well as the power/dominance hierarchy).

It feels like the pendulum has swung from the extreme forms of ritual beliefs in the (historical) East to a dry intellectual/skeptical/protestant extreme in the West. Although clearly elements of each are mixing today eg East is becoming more 'scientific/rational' with rising education and living standards.

I hope the general theme in this post is clear if not the details - i leave that to the reader to investigate further if they are interested... there are lots of blogs on this out there ready to be Googled.

And apologises to anyone if i offend you with my strong language/tone-my own feelings are corrupting the case I was seeking to make here

[fabianfred]

Nice post patient. You describe well many of the current Western attitudes.

I was talking to my fellow farang monk here yesterday and I said that so many of the problems in the West come about because of the largly held beliefs of Christianity or Atheism. Both of those religions consider that we have a single life. This causes people to consider this lifetime of extreme importance and preciousness. They have thus got to be sucessful or at least have as good a time as possible. IMHO it leads to selfishness. Christians go around forcing their religion on the world because they think it is superior and have gods given right to do so, causing untold damage and suffering in the process, thinking they are doing gods work and earning themselves salvation.

Destruction of nature with no thought of the future state of the planet is also a consequence.

Non-belief in rebirth leads to a very short-sighted view and exaggerated idea of the importance of oneself and ones right to do as one pleases without any comebacks.

[weary]

What about the love, smiles and laughs?

[chutai]

Non-belief in rebirth leads to a very short-sighted view and exaggerated idea of the importance of oneself and ones right to do as one pleases without any comebacks.

Belief in actual rebirth isn't that helpful as it can neither be proven nor disproven. It was , however, a useful tool in helping maintain the rigidity of the caste system in India.

For myself, I prefer the more practical view, that each time that we become attached to something or someone we are reborn in the present. See : Ajahn Sumedho (amongst others) "The Mind And The Way."

Perhaps a far better way to promote acting in a more mindful way lay not in blind faith concerning rebirth , but a belief in consequential actions ,i.e karma. :jap:

[fabianfred]

I believe that karma and rebirth are intertwined and cannot be seperated by believing in one and not the other.

Just reading a sutta where the Buddha allows a Brahmin and his wife to refer to him as their son. Afterwards he is questioned by his Bikkhus as to why when he already knew his father and mother. He replied that the Brahmin was his father in 500 previous existences, his uncle in 500 existences and his grandfather for 500 existences,and the Brahmins wife was his mother, aunt and grandmother each for 500 existences. Thus he was brought up by this Brahmin during 1500 states of existence and by his wife during 1500 states of existence.

This sounds very much like actual rebirth to me. So how can I call myself a follower of a teacher whose word I doubt??

[sabaijai]

Off topic rant about the growth of Islam, and a response to that post, has been removed. Please stick to the topic, ie "The End of Buddhism in Thailand."

[Xangsamhua]

There is another type of disease here in the West - and it goes by the name 'secular Buddhism'. The beliefs are not consistent amongst its different adherents but include things such as:

- Buddha 'needed' to repeat his experience of enlightment ie once achieved it was lost and that was why he 'needed' to keep practicing

- Enlightment/nibbana is an ongoing process not an achievement - ie the goal is the 4th enobling truth ie 8 fold path and not ceasation of suffering

- suffering causes craving - not the other way around

- there is no rebirth - atheist view or...

- there may be rebirth - agnostic view. Those parts of the suttas discussing rebirth are dismissed as the Budda merely 'fitting in' with current believes of the day.

- no rituals or believes or faith only what can be seen and experienced for oneself - rationale is in the Kālāma Sutta - taken out of context it seems

- it seems the essence of the secular Buddhist practice is meditation; dana and sila are of much less importance - to me this is like an upside pryamid

- rejection of monastic way of life as it is seen as lacking in a social contribution as well as institutional religion/corrupt - definitely elements of validity there-(but is there a need to throw out the baby with the bath water?). I think it reflects our western sensibilities - we feel discomfort in bowing down to someone or generally treating someone as 'superior' because we were brought up in a 'democratic world where we are all equal'.

I am sure I have failed to express these points accurately (and definitely not completely) as it is from memory - look up Stephen Batchelor et al to get a more correct picture. There are a fair few blogs out there holding forth on secular or skeptical Buddhism.

I suppose I'm sympathetic to "secular buddhism", at least insofar as I understand their position (i.e. from reading a blog, some of Stephen Batchelor's writing and transcripts of his interviews, and some Zen seems quite secular at times), but only up to a point, and I can understand committed Buddhists' lack of sympathy.

I hadn't really heard of items 1-3 as secular buddhist beliefs, but the others - skepticism about the rebirth-karma connection, opposition to ritual (at one with the Buddha on this) and monasticism, and a focus on meditation as a form of mental self-improvement - seem familiar from what I've read. My sympathy, I guess, rests in my preference for tentativeness and loose connectedness rather than belief and commitment, which seem to be the essence of religion. It's not that I think belief and commitment are wrong per se - and congratulations to whoever believes in and is committed to that which is actually true and worthwhile - but when I reflect on my own religious beliefs and commitments at any point in my life I judge now that they were not justified, that for me a belief is always based on insufficient knowledge, understanding and wisdom. Hence I'm now very open to the possibility (likelihood) that I may be wrong in my judgements and conclusions.

So good luck to the secular buddhists who've found direction in their life through the Buddha's teaching, but don't commit to the whole package, especially the non-empirical bits, and extra especially if, like Stephen Batchelor, they think the Buddha was ambivalent about karma-driven rebirth. (Others would argue that karma was a core, if not the core, teaching the Buddha proclaimed, but skeptical people are wary of proclamation.)

I wonder though why one would label oneself as a "secular buddhist" and have a blog or website about it, in which you complain that committed Buddhists won't give you the time of day even when you're sitting in the same hall doing the same meditation practices. Why not just call yourself a meditator, even if you're doing it, not with a view to attainment of nirvana, either in the here and now or lifetimes hence, but to be calmer, more insightful and so on, so life will be happier and more successful in this birth?

We've discussed on this forum already what it is that makes one a Buddhist as opposed to a non-Buddhist, and a variety of views have been presented, but unless one has taken refuge formally in the triple gem, either publicly or privately, I think it would be presumptuous to claim the name "Buddhist" and apply it to yourself. One can respect and admire the Buddha. One may acknowledge the Buddha as a great influence on one's thinking, but unless one takes refuge in a dharma that is based upon karma and rebirth, one is simply "inclined to Buddhism" (as a popular Australian prime minister described himself in the 80s).

One can acknowledge the Buddha's influence in one's pacifism, agrarian socialism, centrism, philosophical idealism or whatever - all of which are secular philosophies - but to present oneself as a "secular buddhist" seems a bit arrogant, stepping into another's space without permission.

[fabianfred]

nice post Xangsamhua :jap:

[patient]

Yes i agree, well said Xangsamhua.

[rockyysdt]

Mindfulness is now becoming mainstream in our society, no longer being the preserve of the Buddhist.

With science beginning to endorse its benefits, many psychologists, sports trainers, medical professionals, & teachers now teach Mindfulness & Concentration.

The thrust of the Mindfulness they teach is to learn to live in the present, and to let go of worries of the past and fears of the future, whilst letting unhelpful thoughts come and go without attachment.

Perhaps this will help the eventual end of Buddhism or more specifically ending many of the reasons to practice Buddhism.

Is Buddhism mindfulness and concentration (the essence of our improvement ) cobbled together with a religion (karma, re birth, realms)?

There are many systems in the market place which are similarly packaged:

1. Weight loss products must be taken with improved diet, exercise. Is it the product or the diet/exercise which achieves the benefits?

2. Irritable Bowel products should be accompanied with improved diet, exercise, & yoga/relaxation techniques. Is it the product or the diet/exercise/yoga which achieves the benefits?

If it is then will non religious mindfulness, now entering the mainstream, erode many of the reasons why many have turned to Buddhism.

Can a practice yielding the benefits of mindfulness minus the beliefs (karma, re birth, many lives) be more attractive to the populous, particularly amongst those who are wary of religion, and erode the need to become a Buddhist?

Edited September 18, 2011 by rockyysdt

[EliBuchen]

Everything is impermanent even the Shakyamuni's doctrine predicted to last 5000 years after his passing. As a kid when I read the sun was going to implode I think thats the word , i felt so sad though it will be a few billion years before that happens.

Another Buddha will manifest to turn the wheel of dharma, so for now lets practise diligently whilst there are good teachers still around.

[fabianfred]

Mindfulness is now becoming mainstream in our society, no longer being the preserve of the Buddhist.

With science beginning to endorse its benefits, many psychologists, sports trainers, medical professionals, & teachers now teach Mindfulness & Concentration.

The thrust of the Mindfulness they teach is to learn to live in the present, and to let go of worries of the past and fears of the future, whilst letting unhelpful thoughts come and go without attachment.

Perhaps this will help the eventual end of Buddhism or more specifically ending many of the reasons to practice Buddhism.

Is Buddhism mindfulness and concentration (the essence of our improvement ) cobbled together with a religion (karma, re birth, realms)?

If it is then will non religious mindfulness, now entering the mainstream, erode many of the reasons why many have turned to Buddhism.

Can a practice yielding the benefits of mindfulness minus the beliefs (karma, re birth, many lives) be more attractive to the populous, particularly amongst those who are wary of religion, and erode the need to become a Buddhist?

Can you still call it a pizza without cheese?

You say these others are teaching mindfulness and how to stay in the present. I'm very doubtful that they are anything like the real thing.

Trying to be mindful for a few minutes whilst relaxing in your office chair...or even meditating....then carrying on with your ordinary lifestyle isn't going to get you to Nibbana.

Even for a monk with all the time available....it isn't easy to be mindful every moment of the day.

Without the support of what you call the religious side of it.....it is too easy to give up when the going gets tough.

People do not turn to Buddhism for mindfulness.....they mostly know nothing about it until they study Buddhism.

[rockyysdt]

Mindfulness is now becoming mainstream in our society, no longer being the preserve of the Buddhist.

With science beginning to endorse its benefits, many psychologists, sports trainers, medical professionals, & teachers now teach Mindfulness & Concentration.

The thrust of the Mindfulness they teach is to learn to live in the present, and to let go of worries of the past and fears of the future, whilst letting unhelpful thoughts come and go without attachment.

Perhaps this will help the eventual end of Buddhism or more specifically ending many of the reasons to practice Buddhism.

Is Buddhism mindfulness and concentration (the essence of our improvement ) cobbled together with a religion (karma, re birth, realms)?

If it is then will non religious mindfulness, now entering the mainstream, erode many of the reasons why many have turned to Buddhism.

Can a practice yielding the benefits of mindfulness minus the beliefs (karma, re birth, many lives) be more attractive to the populous, particularly amongst those who are wary of religion, and erode the need to become a Buddhist?

You say these others are teaching mindfulness and how to stay in the present. I'm very doubtful that they are anything like the real thing.

Trying to be mindful for a few minutes whilst relaxing in your office chair...or even meditating....then carrying on with your ordinary lifestyle isn't going to get you to Nibbana.

Even for a monk with all the time available....it isn't easy to be mindful every moment of the day.

Without the support of what you call the religious side of it.....it is too easy to give up when the going gets tough.

Re reading my post, it sounds like I'm anti Buddhist.

Far from it, I'm continuing to travel, practice and explore.

My post wasn't to compare the quality of mindfulness taught by non Buddhist practioners but to address the OP which talks of the end of Buddhism.

If a major reason to turn to Buddhism is removed, those turning to a practice which changes the way we think and live would be removed.

The question, why do most turn to Buddhism, is very interesting.

Some turn to Buddhism so they can reach Nirvana, but for many others, the reasons must be numerous.

People do not turn to Buddhism for mindfulness.....they mostly know nothing about it until they study Buddhism.

This one often worried me. Do many turn to Buddhism in an attempt to solve their many and varied life problems, but then become influenced with metaphysical teaching?

Can you still call it a pizza without cheese?

Europeans have long known the wonders of cheese-free pizza made with fresh and flavorful ingredients.

The potential of cheese-less pizza is finally getting the attention it deserves.

Last, but not least, taste buds can open up to a whole new range of flavor options when cheese is removed.

The pizza dough is the canvas to create flavorful masterpieces.

Edited October 1, 2011 by rockyysdt