Longer Trains Desperately Needed On The BTS Sukhumvit Line

[exalll]

I'm with you. The BTS, with all its faults is a far cry better than several Asian systems I've been on.

I'm new in Bangkok and just bought a 45 trip pass for 900 baht. That's $0.66 for a trip from Bearing to anywhere the BTS goes. What a deal.

At least that's the way the nice lady explained it to me when I bought the card- or maybe my understanding of the local English dialect needs some refining?

I think you'll find the 45 trips have to be taken in 30 days (or the calendar month, I forget which). So this doesn't work for me as I often have to travel on business and so cannot be sure I will be in Bangkok more than 10-15 working days per month. So I have a stored value ticket - no discount, but takes away the hassle of buying individual tickets.

[markdoj]

As I said earlier.... I am just telling you the facts from working in the engineering of trains field for 12 years. The original comments were why have this and that. I just told the reasoning. Regarding extra trains. Yes, you would need to add all trains used in the rush hour, as not to would defeat the object. You have approx (and this is an informed guess) 11 trains every 3 minutes. So, every train is used during this time.

We can all complain about what is happening, but I have a certain amount of knowledge, which is probably a little more than 'TiT' - Things are moving forward. Anyone who has used the underground system in London will be more than impressed by the system here in Thailand. Remember; This country is a third world country which is evolving. We have to give it time. London has had a rail system for 100 years plus and it is still a nightmare.

Mark.

[p_brownstone]

In all fairness, I'd choose the BTS over the New York Metro any day. Dirty, dangerous, and really crowded. Jai Yen Yen.

I'm with you. The BTS, with all its faults is a far cry better than several Asian systems I've been on.

I'm new in Bangkok and just bought a 45 trip pass for 900 baht. That's $0.66 for a trip from Bearing to anywhere the BTS goes. What a deal.

At least that's the way the nice lady explained it to me when I bought the card- or maybe my understanding of the local English dialect needs some refining?

Did she tell you the "45 trip Pass" expires in 30 days? Use it or lose it is, I believe, the phrase.

Patrick

[jimbeam1]

I find it so unbelievable, that they find it necessary to mess up a success?

I tried to board the other day at Udon Suk, midweek 11.30 in the morning. Carriage was packed, as I was trying to get in, I waited for someone with a child to board first, doors started to close on me, I had to put my arms out to force them open again. It is not just rush hour that they need extra carriages but all day.

jb1

[markdoj]

It is quite possible that engineering limitations are the problem. Adding an extra idler car to a 3 car unit won't work if the motors don't provide enough torque to get a fully laden 4 car unit moving.

The stations are designed for a 6 car train (probably a double 3??) but they may have bought cheaper circuit breakers for the initial demand. While upgrading to higher amperage breakers with what are essentially plug-in units is fairly simple, finding the funding and/or motivation might not be.

The BTS is designed for 6 car sets with two push me pull you motor units. I found that the trains were less crowded than previously as the were operating the trains at maximum frequency with the next train visible in the previous station. On one occasion last Friday, they appeared to reduce the frequency perhaps to enable the passenngers to be packed in to make them feel more at home as they are used to be packed in like sardines when travelling on the bus.

The BTS SkyTrain system is designed to handle a maximum of 50,000 passengers per hour per direction. This is achieved when the 6-car trains (the maximum that the platforms are built to accommodate) run at a headway of approximately 2 minutes. Current peak hour capacity (as of 30 October 2010) as measured by 'peak loading' is approximately 19,000 passengers [per hour per direction] for both morning and evening peak hours on the Sukhumvit Line. The peak loading capacity for BTS SkyTrain – Silom Line is approximately 11,000 passengers for both morning and evening peak hours. BTS Group continues to invest in additional rolling stock and improvements in the signaling system in order to accommodate anticipated growth in ridership.

The last I heard from my mole inside BTS, is that the additional carriages delivered by Siemens to enable BTS to run 4-car sets, are still in the port at Laem Chabang, due to some technicalities between Siemens and BTS

Very informative Mate..... You see, this man has knowledge, not just complaints.

[lomatopo]

The last I heard from my mole inside BTS, is that the additional carriages delivered by Siemens to enable BTS to run 4-car sets, are still in the port at Laem Chabang, due to some technicalities between Siemens and BTS

"Technical difficulties" like, perhaps, they haven't paid the bill...

Or...haven't paid the proper tea money to someone to release them from customs limbo...

BTW, the above comment certainly seems to suggest that BTS continues to have plans to run 4-car sets on the Sukhumvit line...

http://www.siemens.com/press/en/pressrelease/?press=/en/pressrelease/2010/mobility/imo201011005.htm

Berlin, Germany, 2010-Nov-22

Bangkok Mass Transit System Public Company Limited (BTSC) has placed a EUR42 million order with Siemens Mobility for another 35 trailer cars for the Thai capital’s elevated rapid transit system, BTS Skytrain. Train service on the Sukhumvit Line is to start gradually from the end of 2012.

The newly ordered trailer cars are to be put into service successively on the Sukhumvit Line as of the end of 2012 and lengthen the trains already in operation from 3-car to 4-car multiple units. This increase in capacity is necessary in order to cope with the dramatic rise in ridership. Currently, the BTS system transports about 460,000 people per day on the Sukhumvit Line. Each car has 4seats and standing room for 240 persons. The 750 V DC power supply comes from the conductor rail. The trailer cars are to be pre-assembled at the Siemens plant in Vienna, Austria and undergo final assembly in Bangkok. The delivery of these cars is to continue into 2013.

Edited September 5, 2011 by lomatopo

[ArtinBangkok]

I read some time ago that the Siemens train cars that were replaced on the Silom line by the new Chinese train cars would be moved to the Sukhumvit line. What are those train cars being used for now?

[lomatopo]

I read some time ago that the Siemens train cars that were replaced on the Silom line by the new Chinese train cars would be moved to the Sukhumvit line. What are those train cars being used for now?

Some, but perhaps not all, of the 12 3-car Siemens sets previously used on the Silom Line are currently being used on the Sukhumvit Line.

Edited September 5, 2011 by lomatopo

[Arkady]

loads of trains and carriages sat at Mochit terminal not being used. Maybe should change the trains from the Silom line to Sukhumvit line as they are longer, but the door closing sound is horrendous.

I heard from an engineer many months ago who was testing the new trains ordered from China to save a lot of money compared to the original ones that were produced in Germany by Siemens. Apparently they were such poor quality they were virtually unusable. Maybe they are the ones sitting at Morchit. Now it seems they have had to place a new order with Siemens to rectify the error of greed.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Arkady

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Berlin, Germany, 2010-Nov-22

Bangkok Mass Transit System Public Company Limited (BTSC) has placed a EUR42 million order with Siemens Mobility for another 35 trailer cars for the Thai capital's elevated rapid transit system, BTS Skytrain. Train service on the Sukhumvit Line is to start gradually from the end of 2012.

Thanks for the good and direct info, Loma... As said above, obviously BTS does have what they think is a workable plan for incorporating 4-car train sets into Sukhumvit Line service... So going from 3 to 4 doesn't seem to be an operational problem (as opposed to having enough car stock).

Unfortunately, it would seem the initial arrival to line service of any of those news cars is more than a year away.... And in the meantime???

BTW, note the date of the Siemens announcement re the BTS order for new cars.... November 2010.... almost a year ago. So clearly discussions and planning for that were underway well before.

Edited September 5, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[MaxYakov]

This BTS train crowding was obvious long ago. Thai are not capable of planning and ignored repeated observations for many years before. If I'm not mistaken BTS was acquired by the media company that does the advertising on the BTS stations and cars, so longer cars would provide additional channels for more advertising revenue. Together with added fares and additional advertising, this would be the business plan for purchasing additional cars, plus the Thai scheme of kickbacks to merchants at Emporium and Paragon should be more than enough funding and cash flow for at least two additional cars on each train. However, it will take the Thais another ten years to figure out how to split up the money and therefore never getting around to even thinking about customers, risk, and mass transit. Anyway, the elite all drive to work and around shopping so they would never be found dead in a BTS train no matter three or five car length. - noitom

Yes well it's a good job all elite around the world don't think the same way

Here is Michael Bloomberg supposedly worth $ 5.5 Billion but it doesn't stop him from using Public transport.

Yes. There is also article and a picture of Bloomberg being picked up at his home in the morning with two (probably armored) Surburban SUVs with both uniformed police and personal bodyguards to take him to an express station ... on the mornings he has time to take the subway, of course. Where are the bodyguards in your subway-seated picture? What would you do if you had 5.5 billion? What is more plausible? Always ask this: Yes ... but is it true?

Edited September 5, 2011 by MaxYakov

[SantiSuk]

Wow. How about making a call to the operators of the BTS line for some real news. That would have been a smart idea for a "freelance writer."

Here are opportune parts where he could have sought comment from BTS operators:

as BTS has made no recent mention of it. WHY NOT CALL THEM and ASK WHY?

so BTS may be reluctant to expand their service. WHY NOT ASK THEM?

Perhaps they have plans but have not announced them. This article is just a rant.

Actualy, I think this DOES constitute investigative reporting in Thailand!

Asking questions to those in power is futile.

So we just ask questions to one another and hope.

And hope.

And hope.

But it's not like a journalist is going to get to the bottom of anything here.

But one of the things that journalists are useful for is reporting the crass statements and evasiveness of managements and bureaucrats. Apparently they don't try even to do that (out of misplaced cultural deference I guess). I say apparently as I do not yet read Thai and rely on rants from westerners to know how things are - also pretty ineffective I reckon.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I read some time ago that the Siemens train cars that were replaced on the Silom line by the new Chinese train cars would be moved to the Sukhumvit line. What are those train cars being used for now?

Some, but perhaps not all, of the 12 3-car Siemens sets previously used on the Silom Line are currently being used on the Sukhumvit Line.

Which kind of reinforces the question.... if BTS has already ordered NEW trains from Siemens to go to 4-car sets on the Sukhumvit line for the future, why can't they add some of the extra cars that were taken out of service on the Silom line (when replaced by the new Chinese cars) and use those now to go to 4-car sets on the Sukhumvit line????

I think Loma's correct that some of the former Silom-Siemens trains/cars were moved over to the Sukhumvit line already as part of the service expansion... But I never got the sense that ALL of them had been moved over.

BTW, I'm not a critic of the BTS...in fact...just the opposite. I've always thought the BTS operation and service is one of the best things about Bangkok....

However, they are a new organization now with new ownership and perhaps new priorities and management. They need to continue earning their passenger's praise through good service and decision-making, and not fritter way the good reputation they had earned based on past performance.

Edited September 5, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[plumeria]

Self-absorbed writing.

Comments from a few experts might have been helpful

And likely the root of the problem is maximization of profit.

It probably also reflects of lack of vision and forward thinking by the city's and country's logistics experts.

But I am not so sure because there are some very highly trained and highly educated Thais involved in the city planning.

People, trains, times are all measurable and manageable factors that easily fit any modelling software.

In other words, there is no good reason for this problem and it's easily solved and avoided.

Certainly they have plenty of usage statistics to detect trends and extrapolate where it's going.

In my opinion, that makes the problem intentional.

And that begs the question, who profits from the problem?

Somebody is benefiting from the situation.

Expose that and maybe the problem will evaporate.

Edited September 5, 2011 by plumeria

[markdoj]

Berlin, Germany, 2010-Nov-22

Bangkok Mass Transit System Public Company Limited (BTSC) has placed a EUR42 million order with Siemens Mobility for another 35 trailer cars for the Thai capital's elevated rapid transit system, BTS Skytrain. Train service on the Sukhumvit Line is to start gradually from the end of 2012.

Thanks for the good and direct info, Loma... As said above, obviously BTS does have what they think is a workable plan for incorporating 4-car train sets into Sukhumvit Line service... So going from 3 to 4 doesn't seem to be an operational problem (as opposed to having enough car stock).

Unfortunately, it would seem the initial arrival to line service of any of those news cars is more than a year away.... And in the meantime???

BTW, note the date of the Siemens announcement re the BTS order for new cars.... November 2010.... almost a year ago. So clearly discussions and planning for that were underway well before.

Something I do know about: It takes a minimum of 18 months from order to delivery and testing of rolling stock, unless there is absolutely no changes to the design; this could be signalling, linespeed, etc. So, once again..... Thailand has not done that badly.

[plumeria]

Sometimes it's good to employ people rather than automate to the hilt and put more people out of work.

I agree with everything the writer of the article has to say, and with all of the subsequent replies. But while we're on the subject, could something be done to make the purchasing of a BTS ticket more efficient? I feel like I'm in a casino slotting ridiculous amouts of coins just for a one-way pass. And no change machines? Again waiting in line to see a real person who doles out change? How about upgrading the ticket machines to accept 20,50 and 100 baht notes? That might make the ride experience a lot less frustrating. Thanks for reading.

The have those machines but only at some stations and only one machine in the station. If they had them they would have to reduce staff and companies in Thailand thrive on saying they have so many people working for them, makes them feel important.

[SantiSuk]

They can always adopt the UK approach to train and tube capacity management. Put the prices up. I recall the furore about 5 years ago when some bureaucrat let it slip out that pricing was being used to deliberately cap growth in passenger numbers. 150 baht for a single stop journey on BTS anyone?

[plumeria]

TiT! For technical problems, read CHEAP! Which is possibly why they are on the Silom line rather than the Sukhumvit one. MRT is eminently more efficient than BTS, but sadly, not always conveniently located. But BTS might already have extended trains in mind. Thai planning is paramount. After all, they took several decades of planning before building Suvarnabhumi, and they almost got it right.

But my concern is not the overcrowding per se. It is what happens when - not if - there is a major - or even a minor - incident on the track. Just how well trained and prepared are BTS staff? Do they actually receive ANY training in preparation for such an incident [accident]? Just how many injuries might be sustained or, heaven forbid, lives lost, while BTS was fiddling? Or are we expected to rest assured that it will never happen?

Your questions are what the hack-journalist SHOULD have asked BTS and other experts instead of writing an editorial pretending to be a news report.

There are more useful questions and observations in this thread than the original article.

A smart journalist would read TVF, cull out all the good ideas, and use that as the skeleton of some good reporting and then add some meat to the bones by getting qualified comments from relevant people.

But I caution anyone against the common assumption that Thais and Thailand are inferior or less thoughtful than any other country. Just because you can't read all the Thai media and current Thai thinking does not make them any less bright. Don't let challenges in communication be misunderstood as any reflection on abilities, IQ, preparedness, professionalism. Sure there are shortcomings but it's the same old thing as anywhere else. The only difference is here people speak Thai (well mostly?)

Edited September 5, 2011 by plumeria

[heykki]

Well, the Sukhumvit line has capacity for 5 cars per train... But as previously mentioned, it will "soon" be extended from 3 to 4 along with better efficiency (one can hope). And hey, you can always take a bus/taxi.

[plumeria]

The article is spot on.

Travelling by BTS is becoming more and more of nightmare and why they do not add more cars is beyond me. It can't be that much more expensive to run a train with 4 instead of 3 cars - a bit more maintenance cost but that should be about all.

Same reason you hear about boats capsizing that are way over maximum occupancy. The operators are not losing any money by packing more passengers on; they only stand to gain more money in ticket sales. Running more boats (or trains) would only be extra overhead for them.

Right. Good point.

But let's point out ferries capsize in Europe too ... Thailand is not so different than everywhere else.

[plumeria]

*complainer*

-my trip starts from Onnut to Plenchit, i would climb to the rooftop of the train if they allow, so that I can take the train right away it comes. and clock in ON TIME.

-the train driver drives like ''Khon Kab Tuk Tuk ''(bangkok tuk tuk driver). i feel like im in the rollercoaster everytime I take the train. life is full of dangerous! (( well, if it's about the track problem, i would not blame the driver)

*comparison*

anyone here experience subway and public transportation service in japan? IMO, they have good service even in rush hour and it way more convenience and safer.

Anyone seen the Seoul system? Very impressive.

[impulse]

Did she tell you the "45 trip Pass" expires in 30 days? Use it or lose it is, I believe, the phrase.

Patrick

Patrick and other helpful posters, Thanks for the good info.

I think she told me it expires, but working in the Exchange tower right above Asoke plus exploring a new city, I've had it a week and used up about half of the 45 trips. Even if I have to burn a few, it still beats the wait at the machines each trip. Maybe when the novelty wears off I'll go to the stored value cards...

[plumeria]

This BTS train crowding was obvious long ago. Thai are not capable of planning and ignored repeated observations for many years before. If I'm not mistaken BTS was acquired by the media company that does the advertising on the BTS stations and cars, so longer cars would provide additional channels for more advertising revenue. Together with added fares and additional advertising, this would be the business plan for purchasing additional cars, plus the Thai scheme of kickbacks to merchants at Emporium and Paragon should be more than enough funding and cash flow for at least two additional cars on each train. However, it will take the Thais another ten years to figure out how to split up the money and therefore never getting around to even thinking about customers, risk, and mass transit. Anyway, the elite all drive to work and around shopping so they would never be found dead in a BTS train no matter three or five car length. - noitom

Yes well it's a good job all elite around the world don't think the same way

Here is Michael Bloomberg supposedly worth $ 5.5 Billion but it doesn't stop him from using Public transport.

Yeah, right. Bloomberg was actually "using" public transport and it wasn't for PR purposes.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Something I do know about: It takes a minimum of 18 months from order to delivery and testing of rolling stock, unless there is absolutely no changes to the design; this could be signalling, linespeed, etc. So, once again..... Thailand has not done that badly.

Mark, unfortunately, you're missing my main point...which was not to complain about the slowness of the new rail cars arrival..since I know such things always take time, probably moreso in Thailand...

But rather, to highlight, based on the details in the Siemens announcement posted above, that contrary to the supposed impediments you've cited above.... that BTS obviously has been planning since more than a year ago to move to 4 car trains on the Sukhumvit line... It's not just something that's cropped up unexpectedly in the wake of the Bearing expansion opening...

Obviously BTS thought they could make that move back then and thus ordered the new rail cars to allow it. The question is...in the meantime, what about the spare Siemens rail cars that were removed from service on the Silom line, and why, assuming they're available, they couldn't be used NOW to go to at least some 4 car trains.

[plumeria]

Wow. How about making a call to the operators of the BTS line for some real news. That would have been a smart idea for a "freelance writer."

Here are opportune parts where he could have sought comment from BTS operators:

as BTS has made no recent mention of it. WHY NOT CALL THEM and ASK WHY?

so BTS may be reluctant to expand their service. WHY NOT ASK THEM?

Perhaps they have plans but have not announced them. This article is just a rant.

I suppose that would depend on how much work he really wanted, and how much time he had, to sit on the end of a phone for thirty minutes while Thais on the other end try to decide which, if any of them, is qualified to give an answer. Before deciding none of them.

This is Thailand. Or hadn't you realised?

I can't understand how a person (IN YOUR TOTALLY HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION) answering the phone then discussing among coworkers who is qualified to give a good answer makes them somehow racially inferior. It's a really inappropriate comment/conjecture, in my opinion.

Make up something in your own mind then make a generalization and bash Thais. What nonsense.

[plumeria]

not only are the trains overcapacity since they added thebearing extension, the sukhumvit line is now failing altogether on what seems to be a daily issue, it just happened again yesterday they start saying there is a delay on the loudspeaker and that re-????? work is being done and that trains will now only come EVERY 10 MINUTES, so not only are the BTS management not adding more trains/carages they are unable to operate the system they have and they keep fuc_king up the cycle of trains they have on-tracks.

Now THAT kind of information should have been mentioned in the wannabe writer's article and ANSWERED by qualified people.

[plumeria]

In reply to you both:

Regarding the airport link ridership: Studies are done years in advance and are for a period of maybe 50 years. This is to enable a station to be used and not extended. I too think that the stations on the airport link are VERY big and over engineered for their purpose. However; the study was probably done years ago, when tourism was rising steadily and had been over the past 10 years. Since then we have seen tourism fall significantly, for many reasons. Some of which are Thailand's own doing. Airport Sieges, Bangkok riots etc. Some financial, which are the world's doing; such as the in crease of petrol and travellers cancelling or changing holidays to cheaper alternatives.

Who could have predicted this?

As I said..... Its probably a 50 year plan, maybe more. We would not like to see families displaced more than once, when land is required, would we?

Regarding headway.

Im not sure what the lengthy of route is on the BTS Maybe 20km or 15? As I said; Ive only used it, not worked on it.

You have 11 trainsets travelling between stations maybe 1km apart (approx) An average train is moving at 50km/hour (again Im not totally sure of this figure. So, by the time a train leaves a section, another train enters it..... This is the headway. Generally trains are required with a head way of 3 minutes to maintain journey times. So, to add a car will impact on that time. To add 11 cars per route each way will add 11 times that time.

I dont know the details but I would imagine there would be an overall journey time increase of upward of 10 minutes. This again is an estimate. I dont have details.

As I have also said; I dont work for BTS, so have nothing to gain by defending them.

From my own point of view; I am glad that Bangkok is expanding its services. I believe outside of Hong Kong, Singapore etc. the plans are the best in the world. Certainly first rate and I look forward to having them all open soon.

The issue with no information forthcoming is a Thai cultural thing...... I run a business here too, this is an issue for me daily, Im afraid.

I hope this helps?

Mark.

You understood everything correctly. Headway is the MAIN concern here.. something the public barely considers when they criticize any rail systems.

Especially for Airport Link. This is why frequency isn't really an option, especially when the trains are running on higher speeds, headway becomes more and more important. For those who complain that Airport Link needs more train, all I can say is that technically it can add only 2 more trains per hour and that's the maximum. Headway cannot be lower than 5 minutes for each train for the system, and you'll have to keep in mind that Express trains are also running on the very same track as the local Cityline trains.

The 50-year plan has been done for Airport Rail Link and the only solution is to add more and more cars to each train. The plan was that they will not increase the frequency at all, but they will run 4 car trains in the near future after the arrival of 2 more trains. After that, they will run a 4+3 car train in rush hours. (7-car train). If that isn't enough in 30 years? Then they will use 4+3+3 car trains. Hence why the stations are so massively long.

Thanks so much for these THOUGHTFUL and useful comments and observations. I was getting nauseous from all the simplistic racial bashing and mindless dribble. These types of comments and observations are the reason I come to read TVF. Thanks again ...

[normac44]

It is quite possible that engineering limitations are the problem. Adding an extra idler car to a 3 car unit won't work if the motors don't provide enough torque to get a fully laden 4 car unit moving.

The stations are designed for a 6 car train (probably a double 3??) but they may have bought cheaper circuit breakers for the initial demand. While upgrading to higher amperage breakers with what are essentially plug-in units is fairly simple, finding the funding and/or motivation might not be.

Good thinking and exactly right. Also adding extra cars to the train requires a longer platform for the passengers to get off.Several weeks ago I was in Auckland,New Zealand who are hosting the Rugby World Cup.

They put a lot of extra carriages on a train to test the system and when the train stopped at the platform station many of the people at the rear carriages had no way of getting of and some of them fell out of the carriages.

They thought the 10 or 12 carriage train was a good idea but how do the people get off?.

[plumeria]

As I said earlier.... I am just telling you the facts from working in the engineering of trains field for 12 years. The original comments were why have this and that. I just told the reasoning. Regarding extra trains. Yes, you would need to add all trains used in the rush hour, as not to would defeat the object. You have approx (and this is an informed guess) 11 trains every 3 minutes. So, every train is used during this time.

We can all complain about what is happening, but I have a certain amount of knowledge, which is probably a little more than 'TiT' - Things are moving forward. Anyone who has used the underground system in London will be more than impressed by the system here in Thailand. Remember; This country is a third world country which is evolving. We have to give it time. London has had a rail system for 100 years plus and it is still a nightmare.

Mark.

So much great comment but please allow me to correct you about Thailand is a "THIRD WORLD COUNTRY".

Hanging on to that term when Thailand is not truly 3rd world enables it to get better loan conditions from the IMF and other global funding sources but this is not a third world country.

Like the other member said, have you been on the NY Metro?

When is the last time you were in the USA? -- the new "3rd World" in so many ways, including infrastructure, health, etc, etc, etc.

[plumeria]

Wow. How about making a call to the operators of the BTS line for some real news. That would have been a smart idea for a "freelance writer."

Here are opportune parts where he could have sought comment from BTS operators:

as BTS has made no recent mention of it. WHY NOT CALL THEM and ASK WHY?

so BTS may be reluctant to expand their service. WHY NOT ASK THEM?

Perhaps they have plans but have not announced them. This article is just a rant.

Actualy, I think this DOES constitute investigative reporting in Thailand!

Asking questions to those in power is futile.

So we just ask questions to one another and hope.

And hope.

And hope.

But it's not like a journalist is going to get to the bottom of anything here.

But one of the things that journalists are useful for is reporting the crass statements and evasiveness of managements and bureaucrats. Apparently they don't try even to do that (out of misplaced cultural deference I guess). I say apparently as I do not yet read Thai and rely on rants from westerners to know how things are - also pretty ineffective I reckon.

The rants are pretty useless but there is some GREAT info contained in these posts. More than enough to write a far better article than the one on which this is based.

That's ignorant hogwash that you can't ask any Thai mover and shaker or VIP questions. Just not true. But just like ANYWHERE ELSE, the quality of the question and the intelligence of the person asking it has a LOT of influence on the answer.

And then the answers have to be analyzed. It just takes a bit of work and a bit of thought. This guy was not trying to be "investigative". Minimum work and maximum number of words. There are more facts and useful info in this thread than you'll find in the newspaper and not all comments are by "foreigners".