The (Near) Imminent Collapse Of The (Southern ) Euro

[theblether]

Considering this thread is about the possible demise of the Euro

it seems to be straying a long way off course.............

In an attempt to bring it back to the subject.

This week's Telegraph weekly world edition (Nov. 30 - Dec. 6) has a story on p. 2 headlined "Prepare for collapse of euro, Foreign Office tells embassies". British embassies in the eurozone have been told to draw up plans to help British expatriates through any collapse of the single currency, amid renewed fears for Italy and Spain.... British ministers privately warned that the break-up of the euro, once almost unthinkable, is now increasingly plausible... Diplomats are preparing to help Britons abroad through a banking collapse and even riots arising from the crisis... The Treasury confirmed that contingency planning for a collapse was under way, and a senior minister has now disclosed the extent of the Government's concern, saying Britain is planning on the basis that a euro collapse is just a matter of time... Britons [abroad may be] unable to access bank accounts or even withdraw cash, facing rioting and social unrest".

Can someone explain to me how a EURO collapse would affect my Sterling money? Surely would have no effect on my ability to exchange Sterling for baht. If it gets that bad, many of us here will be in the deep doo doo. Perhaps I am misreading this post.

Anyway, sooooooo glad I cashed my Euros months ago. Not often I make the right decision when it comes to exchanging money ( changed my Sterling at 46 in 1996- rats ).

The chances are that a Euro collapse will result in a strengthening of sterling as it will be seen as a safe haven, gold will go dancing up in price again and the $ too.How long it will last for I don't know. Confidence is the key, if the Germans decided to re-issue the DM I reckon that currency will be very well received, the German public would rejoice and the German economy would start to soar again.

The Euro collapse is not a universal doom and gloom picture, the strong European economies will re-balance within months, and the weak ones will go to the wall. It may unleash a new round of competition as some of the weaker European states will be using weak and under-valued currencies which will then make their exports cheaper, hence hurting the low wage competitive advantage of the Asian economies including Thailand.

It's Alice in Wonderland economics.

[StreetCowboy]

So practically, how would this actually work then?

Would there be a transition period, when shops in Greece would be required to quote prices in Euros and - let's call the new currency drachmas - while in Germany they might quote in Euros and DM. The Greek government would convert thier debt into Drachmas; everyone with a Euro bank balance will convert it into DM if they can, the drachma will plummet in value as people try to offload the sovereign debt and any balances that they have and interest rates in Greece will soar.

Probably most foreign business will be done in foreign currency as no-one wants to take the risk on the drachma... and all the Greek debt that the German and other banks hold will become worthless.

So why would anyone support that, in preference to retaining the Euro, free international trade and price stability, while Greece defaults on its debt. Whether they default by being unable or refusing to pay, or by converting the debt into a worthless currency makes little difference to the banks, but retaining a stable currency makes a big difference for anyone trading with Greece. And the Greeks will have to suffer deflation in Euros (in real money) which would be exactly the same as gross inflation in their worthless currency (which would still represent deflation in real money).

It seems strange to be talking about the collapse of the Euro, when it is so strong against its peers...

Although I suppose it is also strange to see the dollar retain its position in world trade despite the US trying to devalue the currency in order to inflate away its debts.

SC

[theblether]

So practically, how would this actually work then?

Would there be a transition period, when shops in Greece would be required to quote prices in Euros and - let's call the new currency drachmas - while in Germany they might quote in Euros and DM. The Greek government would convert thier debt into Drachmas; everyone with a Euro bank balance will convert it into DM if they can, the drachma will plummet in value as people try to offload the sovereign debt and any balances that they have and interest rates in Greece will soar.

Probably most foreign business will be done in foreign currency as no-one wants to take the risk on the drachma... and all the Greek debt that the German and other banks hold will become worthless.

So why would anyone support that, in preference to retaining the Euro, free international trade and price stability, while Greece defaults on its debt. Whether they default by being unable or refusing to pay, or by converting the debt into a worthless currency makes little difference to the banks, but retaining a stable currency makes a big difference for anyone trading with Greece. And the Greeks will have to suffer deflation in Euros (in real money) which would be exactly the same as gross inflation in their worthless currency (which would still represent deflation in real money).

It seems strange to be talking about the collapse of the Euro, when it is so strong against its peers...

Although I suppose it is also strange to see the dollar retain its position in world trade despite the US trying to devalue the currency in order to inflate away its debts.

SC

Your right in every point and it is a doomsday scenario but as Astral pointed out earlier it's been taken seriously enough to warrant government planning. In effect Greece would be reduced to a basket case, where the shopkeepers will be giving you various prices based upon various different currencies. We Asia travellers are familiar with this as there is a hunger in the secondary Asian economies for hard foreign cash, preferably dollars.

[Spee]

\Your right in every point and it is a doomsday scenario but as Astral pointed out earlier it's been taken seriously enough to warrant government planning. In effect Greece would be reduced to a basket case, where the shopkeepers will be giving you various prices based upon various different currencies. We Asia travellers are familiar with this as there is a hunger in the secondary Asian economies for hard foreign cash, preferably dollars.

The Greece economy is not a basket case already?

If anything, I would suggest that the potential upside to the problems is that the size and scope of the debt problems is not that large in relative terms (for example, compared to the debt problems of other larger EU economies, or even the largest debt of the largest economy, the US).

I would say there is not a downside to the so-called "grey market" where shopkeepers would accept the USD or the UK pound versus some local currency that has no value outside of the country. This has been and remains a fairly widespread practice. Many years ago, I worked in Romania with the Romanian Leu as the local currency, which is more or less worthless outside of Romania. It was very common practice in nightclubs and restaurants to pull out a USD $100 bill if running short on Leu. The same is true around US military bases worldwide, where there is a dual currency (e.g., the Japanese Yen and local shops and stores also accepting the USD).

My biggest fear is the inevitable inflation from the run-amok printing presses of the US Fed, and the impact that it, and the similarly run-amok deficit spending of the US government. These problems are large enough to impact the entire world. The US debt is growing at such a rate that only a month or two debt is larger than the entire debt of some of these troubled European economies.

If the US government continues to run rampant on debt growth, it would seem inevitable that gold prices will continue to spiral upwards. How will this affect Thailand, where gold plays such a large part in both the economy and the society. What else will happen is anyone's guess.

[gregb]

So practically, how would this actually work then?

Would there be a transition period, when shops in Greece would be required to quote prices in Euros and - let's call the new currency drachmas - while in Germany they might quote in Euros and DM. The Greek government would convert thier debt into Drachmas; everyone with a Euro bank balance will convert it into DM if they can, the drachma will plummet in value as people try to offload the sovereign debt and any balances that they have and interest rates in Greece will soar.

Probably most foreign business will be done in foreign currency as no-one wants to take the risk on the drachma... and all the Greek debt that the German and other banks hold will become worthless.

So why would anyone support that, in preference to retaining the Euro, free international trade and price stability, while Greece defaults on its debt. Whether they default by being unable or refusing to pay, or by converting the debt into a worthless currency makes little difference to the banks, but retaining a stable currency makes a big difference for anyone trading with Greece. And the Greeks will have to suffer deflation in Euros (in real money) which would be exactly the same as gross inflation in their worthless currency (which would still represent deflation in real money).

It seems strange to be talking about the collapse of the Euro, when it is so strong against its peers...

Although I suppose it is also strange to see the dollar retain its position in world trade despite the US trying to devalue the currency in order to inflate away its debts.

SC

Why would they support that? Because the Greeks can't print Euros, and after a default they can't borrow Euros. And they can't pay for their social services any more. Where do the Euros come from to run the country if they remain in the currency? They already can't pay their debt and are being kept alive through accounting tricks. An overt default won't change anything but their credit rating.

Staying with the Euro means unacceptable austerity to the Greek people. Dumping the Euro means they can return to a currency they have control over. You are correct that unless they clean up their act, which they won't, it means inflation in their local currency is heading their way. But that is still off in the future. In the short run, it means all the social programs will be funded once again, and at very little cost to the average citizen.

I would ask a different question. Given the exceedingly dismal picture that would be required to stay in the Euro, why would anyone support not taking the deal behind door #2?

[roamer]

So practically, how would this actually work then?

Would there be a transition period, when shops in Greece would be required to quote prices in Euros and - let's call the new currency drachmas - while in Germany they might quote in Euros and DM. The Greek government would convert thier debt into Drachmas; everyone with a Euro bank balance will convert it into DM if they can, the drachma will plummet in value as people try to offload the sovereign debt and any balances that they have and interest rates in Greece will soar.

Probably most foreign business will be done in foreign currency as no-one wants to take the risk on the drachma... and all the Greek debt that the German and other banks hold will become worthless.

So why would anyone support that, in preference to retaining the Euro, free international trade and price stability, while Greece defaults on its debt. Whether they default by being unable or refusing to pay, or by converting the debt into a worthless currency makes little difference to the banks, but retaining a stable currency makes a big difference for anyone trading with Greece. And the Greeks will have to suffer deflation in Euros (in real money) which would be exactly the same as gross inflation in their worthless currency (which would still represent deflation in real money).

It seems strange to be talking about the collapse of the Euro, when it is so strong against its peers...

Although I suppose it is also strange to see the dollar retain its position in world trade despite the US trying to devalue the currency in order to inflate away its debts.

SC

Why would they support that? Because the Greeks can't print Euros, and after a default they can't borrow Euros. And they can't pay for their social services any more. Where do the Euros come from to run the country if they remain in the currency? They already can't pay their debt and are being kept alive through accounting tricks. An overt default won't change anything but their credit rating.

Staying with the Euro means unacceptable austerity to the Greek people. Dumping the Euro means they can return to a currency they have control over. You are correct that unless they clean up their act, which they won't, it means inflation in their local currency is heading their way. But that is still off in the future. In the short run, it means all the social programs will be funded once again, and at very little cost to the average citizen.

I would ask a different question. Given the exceedingly dismal picture that would be required to stay in the Euro, why would anyone support not taking the deal behind door #2?

Does it matter who supports either deal ? A lot of currency traders out there are already flicking through the new Porsche brochures, and no doubt their bosses are doing likewise with yacht brochures. For some folk chaos creates opportunity.

[theblether]

\Your right in every point and it is a doomsday scenario but as Astral pointed out earlier it's been taken seriously enough to warrant government planning. In effect Greece would be reduced to a basket case, where the shopkeepers will be giving you various prices based upon various different currencies. We Asia travellers are familiar with this as there is a hunger in the secondary Asian economies for hard foreign cash, preferably dollars.

The Greece economy is not a basket case already?

If anything, I would suggest that the potential upside to the problems is that the size and scope of the debt problems is not that large in relative terms (for example, compared to the debt problems of other larger EU economies, or even the largest debt of the largest economy, the US).

I would say there is not a downside to the so-called "grey market" where shopkeepers would accept the USD or the UK pound versus some local currency that has no value outside of the country. This has been and remains a fairly widespread practice. Many years ago, I worked in Romania with the Romanian Leu as the local currency, which is more or less worthless outside of Romania. It was very common practice in nightclubs and restaurants to pull out a USD $100 bill if running short on Leu. The same is true around US military bases worldwide, where there is a dual currency (e.g., the Japanese Yen and local shops and stores also accepting the USD).

My biggest fear is the inevitable inflation from the run-amok printing presses of the US Fed, and the impact that it, and the similarly run-amok deficit spending of the US government. These problems are large enough to impact the entire world. The US debt is growing at such a rate that only a month or two debt is larger than the entire debt of some of these troubled European economies.

If the US government continues to run rampant on debt growth, it would seem inevitable that gold prices will continue to spiral upwards. How will this affect Thailand, where gold plays such a large part in both the economy and the society. What else will happen is anyone's guess.

It's nothing like the basket case it will be after the artificial lung of Euro Bailout money is withdrawn. On the rest of your post +1

[JurgenG]

It seems the troubles of the UK in Europe are over.

Should we stay or should we go ? The 17 members of the Euro zone have answered. You go !

It seems Mr cameron has been instrumental in the collapse of the latest talks. But it was a short victory because an agreement was found between the 17 countries of the Euro zone, with the other countries free to join if they wish so.

We have now an agreement that will include 23 of the 27 countries of the European Union. Only Hungary has opted out, while the Czech Republic and Sweden want first to consult with their parliaments.

So at the end Merkozy has won and Cameron is out. Not so bad after all.

Edited December 9, 2011 by JurgenG

[theblether]

It seems the troubles of the UK in Europe are over.

Should we stay or should we go ? The 17 members of the Euro zone have answered. You go !

It seems Mr cameron has been instrumental in the collapse of the latest talks. But it was a short victory because an agreement was found between the 17 countries of the Euro zone, with the other countries free to join if they wish so.

We have now an agreement that will include 23 of the 27 countries of the European Union. Only Hungary has opted out, while the Czech Republic and Sweden want first to consult with their parliaments.

So at the end Merkozy has won and Cameron is out. Not so bad after all.

I'm finding it hard to interpret your post.......are you happy that the UK has refused the sanction the agreement or not? and why?

[JurgenG]

It seems the troubles of the UK in Europe are over.

Should we stay or should we go ? The 17 members of the Euro zone have answered. You go !

It seems Mr cameron has been instrumental in the collapse of the latest talks. But it was a short victory because an agreement was found between the 17 countries of the Euro zone, with the other countries free to join if they wish so.

We have now an agreement that will include 23 of the 27 countries of the European Union. Only Hungary has opted out, while the Czech Republic and Sweden want first to consult with their parliaments.

So at the end Merkozy has won and Cameron is out. Not so bad after all.

I'm finding it hard to interpret your post.......are you happy that the UK has refused the sanction the agreement or not? and why?

Of course not, I'm not happy. The UK belongs to Europe, historically, geographically and economically. Mr Cameron should be seated next to Ms Merkel and Mr Sarkozy to lead the European Union through this crisis.

But you can't join a club with the aim to destroy it. You're in or you're out. Obviously Mr Cameron doesn't want to be in, then he should face the consequences.

The main point of contention is Mr Cameron's request that the UK financial sector be excluded from the agreement. To which Mr Sarkozy rightly answered the financial sector is the responsible of the current crisis so it can't be excluded.

It now seems that the UK will be the only nation not signing the agreement, further isolating themselves inside the European Union. Some in the UK seem to believe that the "special relationship" with the USA will protect them, I personally don't think so but ultimately it's the UK choice.

[notmyself]

Not being part of the Euro let the UK act quickly while the Eurozone debated for 2 years making things worse.

[boE governor] Sir Mervyn said that the UK's banks were among the strongest in the world, with tier 1 capital ratios - an internationally respected measure of a bank's strength - at well above 12%.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-15984291

GBP may take a hit if the Euro goes tits up but will be the first to gain strength.

[MarkyM3]

Did anyone seriously expect Mr Cameron to sign up to an agreement to implement a Tobin tax that will:

a. be 80-85% derived from the City of London given its position as a leading financial centre.

b. not globally co-ordinated so that places like New York, Singapore and Hong Kong which are not subject to such a tax flourish at the UK's expense.

I'm sure the other Eurozone leaders fancy the idea of the UK bailing them out by the back door but thankfully Mr Cameron isn't that stupid. Aside from the fact his own MP's would force him out of his job in no time at all.

No co-incidence that Norway and Switzerland are two of the smartest and richest countries in Europe by never getting involved in EU membership. Are they any "less" European??

Edited December 9, 2011 by MarkyM3

[theblether]

The Euro

Just because your in a crowd it doesn't mean your safe

[theblether]

It seems the troubles of the UK in Europe are over.

Should we stay or should we go ? The 17 members of the Euro zone have answered. You go !

It seems Mr cameron has been instrumental in the collapse of the latest talks. But it was a short victory because an agreement was found between the 17 countries of the Euro zone, with the other countries free to join if they wish so.

We have now an agreement that will include 23 of the 27 countries of the European Union. Only Hungary has opted out, while the Czech Republic and Sweden want first to consult with their parliaments.

So at the end Merkozy has won and Cameron is out. Not so bad after all.

I'm finding it hard to interpret your post.......are you happy that the UK has refused the sanction the agreement or not? and why?

Of course not, I'm not happy. The UK belongs to Europe, historically, geographically and economically. Mr Cameron should be seated next to Ms Merkel and Mr Sarkozy to lead the European Union through this crisis.

But you can't join a club with the aim to destroy it. You're in or you're out. Obviously Mr Cameron doesn't want to be in, then he should face the consequences.

The main point of contention is Mr Cameron's request that the UK financial sector be excluded from the agreement. To which Mr Sarkozy rightly answered the financial sector is the responsible of the current crisis so it can't be excluded.

It now seems that the UK will be the only nation not signing the agreement, further isolating themselves inside the European Union. Some in the UK seem to believe that the "special relationship" with the USA will protect them, I personally don't think so but ultimately it's the UK choice.

Excuse me, garbage. The UK has not set out to destroy the European Union or the Euro.

The conversation last night went along the lines of............" Do exactly what we have decided Mr Cameron or your a very bad man ".

It reminded me of a certain movie.

Cameron was right to say no thanks to these deluded Euro maniacs.

[theblether]

Ok, Ok, I confess I'm coming across as looking a bit obsessive on this thread, however!! Have a look at this..................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16107949

Last months UK exports were an all time high, as in ever.......as in never before ever before has the UK exported more.........and let me tell you something else..........it's the third time this year the UK has broken it's all-time export record.

To all you guys out there who are taking pleasure in the demise of the UK ......... get it right up ye !!

ps......just wait to see our exports rocket even further next year

[roamer]

Personally I would have much preferred that Dave had signed up to the treaty.

Would have triggered a referendum on the EU in the UK and probably several other countries to boot.

[JurgenG]

Personally I would have much preferred that Dave had signed up to the treaty.

Would have triggered a referendum on the EU in the UK and probably several other countries to boot.

I agree with you, a referendum would be great, We already know what the result will be that's why there won't be any referendum.

You remark actually demonstrates the problem of the UK. Many in the UK hope several other countries will join them on the way out. They don't want to be in but they're afraid to be left out. The only solution is to destroy the European Union.

An other point. The financial sector the UK is so proud about, for most of the other nations of the European nation, that's the real problem, the cause of all our current troubles.

Anyway I don't think what the UK want or doesn't want will have any incidence on the future of the European Union, it's just annoying distraction. They will be sidelined and that will be it.

[theblether]

Personally I would have much preferred that Dave had signed up to the treaty.

Would have triggered a referendum on the EU in the UK and probably several other countries to boot.

I agree with you, a referendum would be great, We already know what the result will be that's why there won't be any referendum.

You remark actually demonstrates the problem of the UK. Many in the UK hope several other countries will join them on the way out. They don't want to be in but they're afraid to be left out. The only solution is to destroy the European Union.

An other point. The financial sector the UK is so proud about, for most of the other nations of the European nation, that's the real problem, the cause of all our current troubles.

Anyway I don't think what the UK want or doesn't want will have any incidence on the future of the European Union, it's just annoying distraction. They will be sidelined and that will be it.

I'm sorry Sir, you are wrong.

There is no guarantee that the Euro will survive. At least 6 of the current Euro members are either insolvent or technically insolvent. In the next 12 months Italy alone has to flip 290 billion Euros worth of loans. They are being charged a market premium as they are too risky a bet.

So let's look at the mathematics, and let's have a look at the figures................

The Germans have stated that the Euro rescue fund will be capped at 500 billion Euros, not a penny more.

The German 10 year bond rating is 2.08%

The UK 10 year bond rating is 2.16%

The Italian 10 year bond rating is hovering around 7%

The market is asking for virtually a 5% premium already from Italy, as they do not think the Italian economy is sustainable.

The Spanish bond rating is just over 6%, for the same reason.

The Italians could not balance their books when they were paying around 3 to 4 % ratings, what chance do you think they have of balancing the books at the new rates? None.

What's the relevance?

As I said, the Germans have imposed a 500 Billion limit to the Euro bailout fund.

In the next 12 months alone the Italians must flip 290 billion Euros of debt, and the Spanish must flip 120 billion Euros of debt. That's before you have to look at additional bailouts for Greece, ( definite ) Ireland ( possibly ) Portugal?? ( probable ) ........ and sundry other shocks on the horizon.

You just carry on without us........some parties are not worth being invited to.

ps

Shock news just in!! The UK are signatories to the Lisbon Treaty!! amongst other things that guarantees free trade within the European Union, and free passage for UK citizens!!

Could it be, possibly, just maybe!! that we will be able to take the best benefits from EU membership and leave the rest to you?????

pps

Shock news part 2

The group of 26 are not allowed by law to use any of the EU assets to promote their grouping, they are not allowed to use EU officials or to discuss any issue that may impact upon the Lisbon Treaty agreement.

Could it be your going to a party, and not only do you all turn up without a drink, you find that the venue door has been slammed in your face????

Idiots

[roamer]

Personally I would have much preferred that Dave had signed up to the treaty.

Would have triggered a referendum on the EU in the UK and probably several other countries to boot.

I agree with you, a referendum would be great, We already know what the result will be that's why there won't be any referendum.

You remark actually demonstrates the problem of the UK. Many in the UK hope several other countries will join them on the way out. They don't want to be in but they're afraid to be left out. The only solution is to destroy the European Union.

An other point. The financial sector the UK is so proud about, for most of the other nations of the European nation, that's the real problem, the cause of all our current troubles.

Anyway I don't think what the UK want or doesn't want will have any incidence on the future of the European Union, it's just annoying distraction. They will be sidelined and that will be it.

Another factor, the single largest employer in the City is Deutsche Bank, can't see that sitting so happily with Merkel, likewise the French banks with Sarkosy. I think its unrealistic not to expect some sort of reaction.

[JurgenG]

Personally I would have much preferred that Dave had signed up to the treaty.

Would have triggered a referendum on the EU in the UK and probably several other countries to boot.

I agree with you, a referendum would be great, We already know what the result will be that's why there won't be any referendum.

You remark actually demonstrates the problem of the UK. Many in the UK hope several other countries will join them on the way out. They don't want to be in but they're afraid to be left out. The only solution is to destroy the European Union.

An other point. The financial sector the UK is so proud about, for most of the other nations of the European nation, that's the real problem, the cause of all our current troubles.

Anyway I don't think what the UK want or doesn't want will have any incidence on the future of the European Union, it's just annoying distraction. They will be sidelined and that will be it.

Another factor, the single largest employer in the City is Deutsche Bank, can't see that sitting so happily with Merkel, likewise the French banks with Sarkosy. I think its unrealistic not to expect some sort of reaction.

Of course there will be reaction, but if the European countries stick together, and I believe they will, it should be manageable.

[theblether]

Personally I would have much preferred that Dave had signed up to the treaty.

Would have triggered a referendum on the EU in the UK and probably several other countries to boot.

I agree with you, a referendum would be great, We already know what the result will be that's why there won't be any referendum.

You remark actually demonstrates the problem of the UK. Many in the UK hope several other countries will join them on the way out. They don't want to be in but they're afraid to be left out. The only solution is to destroy the European Union.

An other point. The financial sector the UK is so proud about, for most of the other nations of the European nation, that's the real problem, the cause of all our current troubles.

Anyway I don't think what the UK want or doesn't want will have any incidence on the future of the European Union, it's just annoying distraction. They will be sidelined and that will be it.

Another factor, the single largest employer in the City is Deutsche Bank, can't see that sitting so happily with Merkel, likewise the French banks with Sarkosy. I think its unrealistic not to expect some sort of reaction.

Of course there will be reaction, but if the European countries stick together, and I believe they will, it should be manageable.

Yeh, they'll stick together and watch their entire financial market migrate to London.

I don't think you have grasped the concept that the Lisbon Treaty has been a self inflicted wound of the Eurozone countries........they have guaranteed free trade with the UK and they can do nothing about mass migration of company headquarters from places like Frankfurt to London.

Happy days!!......Bring it on......High Value companies moving to London in their droves and swelling the UK taxpayers coffers!!

[JurgenG]

I agree with you, a referendum would be great, We already know what the result will be that's why there won't be any referendum.

You remark actually demonstrates the problem of the UK. Many in the UK hope several other countries will join them on the way out. They don't want to be in but they're afraid to be left out. The only solution is to destroy the European Union.

An other point. The financial sector the UK is so proud about, for most of the other nations of the European nation, that's the real problem, the cause of all our current troubles.

Anyway I don't think what the UK want or doesn't want will have any incidence on the future of the European Union, it's just annoying distraction. They will be sidelined and that will be it.

Another factor, the single largest employer in the City is Deutsche Bank, can't see that sitting so happily with Merkel, likewise the French banks with Sarkosy. I think its unrealistic not to expect some sort of reaction.

Of course there will be reaction, but if the European countries stick together, and I believe they will, it should be manageable.

Yeh, they'll stick together and watch their entire financial market migrate to London.

I don't think you have grasped the concept that the Lisbon Treaty has been a self inflicted wound of the Eurozone countries........they have guaranteed free trade with the UK and they can do nothing about mass migration of company headquarters from places like Frankfurt to London.

Happy days!!......Bring it on......High Value companies moving to London in their droves and swelling the UK taxpayers coffers!!

What you don't seem to understand is what the European Union tries to achieve is to protect its members from the excess of the financial markets and by strict regulation make sure that some country don't borrow beyond their means. If London wants to be a safe haven for vultures ... But if the European succeed in drying up the market for toxic financial products, and they will, I don't know what money will fill the UK taxpayer coffers

Beside, the UK will now be in the same position with the European Union that it is with the USA, a partner with a "special relationship" but with no say on what's going on. It's like this old joke "Journalist : Mr Blair, what do you think of the situation ? Mr Blair : I don't know, I haven't call Washington yet. "

Ultimately, we will never be enough thankful to London and the financial services sectors. The European Union will get out of this crisis stronger and economically and politically more integrated, a task that would have takes 10, 20 or even 50 years without this crisis.

[Naam]

Yeh, they'll stick together and watch their entire financial market migrate to London.

I don't think you have grasped the concept that the Lisbon Treaty has been a self inflicted wound of the Eurozone countries........they have guaranteed free trade with the UK and they can do nothing about mass migration of company headquarters from places like Frankfurt to London.

Happy days!!......Bring it on......High Value companies moving to London in their droves and swelling the UK taxpayers coffers!!

and then the clever milkmaid lived happily ever after on that remote island... as long as her wet dreams lasted

[Naam]

Excuse me, garbage. The UK has not set out to destroy the European Union or the Euro.

The conversation last night went along the lines of............" Do exactly what we have decided Mr Cameron or your a very bad man ".

It reminded me of a certain movie.

Cameron was right to say no thanks to these deluded Euro maniacs.

the correct version what happened:

Cameron joined the party with a long list of demands benefitting exclusively the Yewnighted Queendom. then the representatives of the EU countries voted and said "no thanks Cameron!" but they were too polite to publish what they actually thought of some deluded maniac.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Naam

[lannarebirth]

I was in Ireland last year, and was astounded that a whole nation could be so greedy.

IMO the whole debacle was completely self inflicted, and I found it hard to have any sympathy for a country that spent borrowed money to build massive vanity projects in Dublin, while doing nothing to make the life of the poorest better.

I fully understand why Britain is bailing them out, as if they don't, the UK will be flooded with penniless Irish moving over to look for work.

I fully agree with your first paragraph. Whoever lent them that money deserves to get stiffed.

[lannarebirth]

IMO this crisis is a good thing, it will strengthen the Euro zone

A lot a needed measures that will never have been accepted during good times are now passed. The German are now able to impose some well needed discipline, with a liitle help from the French. They play hard ball but I think it's going to pay off at the end. Don't forget, it's the only country in Europe with the experience of the integration of two opposite economies, East and West Germany. And, as now, strong opposition from abroad from countries that was not so happy to see a reunified Germany back.

And we got rid of Berlusconi !

The problem with what the Germans are trying to impose is, it is absolutely not what their Euro partners originally agreed to.

[theblether]

I was in Ireland last year, and was astounded that a whole nation could be so greedy.

IMO the whole debacle was completely self inflicted, and I found it hard to have any sympathy for a country that spent borrowed money to build massive vanity projects in Dublin, while doing nothing to make the life of the poorest better.

I fully understand why Britain is bailing them out, as if they don't, the UK will be flooded with penniless Irish moving over to look for work.

I fully agree with your first paragraph. Whoever lent them that money deserves to get stiffed.

+1 The Irish thought they could ride the Euro Gravy Train forever........countries don't go from centuries of poverty to being swashing in money overnight. The exception to that being countries that discover oil or minerals, neither of which the Irish did. Unfortunately the Irish fell into a trap head first.

Edited December 11, 2011 by theblether

[theblether]

Excuse me, garbage. The UK has not set out to destroy the European Union or the Euro.

The conversation last night went along the lines of............" Do exactly what we have decided Mr Cameron or your a very bad man ".

It reminded me of a certain movie.

Cameron was right to say no thanks to these deluded Euro maniacs.

the correct version what happened:

Cameron joined the party with a long list of demands benefitting exclusively the Yewnighted Queendom. then the representatives of the EU countries voted and said "no thanks Cameron!" but they were too polite to publish what they actually thought of some deluded maniac.

Your very clever........now to prove how clever you are please educate everybody as to this big list of demands that the UK made.......to make it easy for you I've prepared a list......

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

etc etc You get the idea......you fill them in......I can't wait

[rgs2001uk]

I was in Ireland last year, and was astounded that a whole nation could be so greedy.

IMO the whole debacle was completely self inflicted, and I found it hard to have any sympathy for a country that spent borrowed money to build massive vanity projects in Dublin, while doing nothing to make the life of the poorest better.

I fully understand why Britain is bailing them out, as if they don't, the UK will be flooded with penniless Irish moving over to look for work.

I fully agree with your first paragraph. Whoever lent them that money deserves to get stiffed.

+1 The Irish thought they could ride the Euro Gravy Train forever........countries don't go from centuries of poverty to being swashing in money overnight. The exception to that being countries that discover oil or minerals, neither of which the Irish did. Unfortunately the Irish fell into a trap head first.

No mention of, The Double Irish?

[theblether]

@ Jurgeng

You, Sir, are joking.

Germany was the first country to break the covenant the last time, because they couldn't stick to the limits. There is no chance whatsoever of all the 17 Eurozone countries sticking to these new limits. If they do not do so the German proposal is to fine them.........a nutter proposal. If the country is in financial trouble you don't fine them, you help them.

There's going to be riots and blood on the streets of Europe when people realize what is being asked of them here........they will have to ask German permission to spend money. Therefore the first casualty is democracy.........Italy has lost it's democratic status already.

This Euro fiasco is a German invention..........based upon fear, fear of themselves, and they are going to cause Europe to fracture through their rank stupidity.

If you think I'm wrong........let's make a date to come back to this subject on April Fools Day. That's only three months away.........