Gay Tourists

[endure]

Even more drastically against the rules is bullshit posted to attack gays, even gay tourists (for whom I have little fondness personally myself).

Why do you have 'little fondness' for people who are gay and who happen to visit Thailand as tourists? What's specifically wrong with gay folks who visit Thailand as tourists that doesn't apply to non-gay tourists? Do you believe that the fact that you live and work in Thailand makes you superior to those who work elsewhere but choose to spend their holidays in Thailand?

[Ijustwannateach]

I split this to a new topic because it was off-topic in its original context.

^I am not fond of gay tourism (generally, with specific exceptions of course) because of the behaviour of many gay tourists, if you must know.

Naturally, I am perfectly neutral towards tourists who 'happen to be gay' and are simply here as genuine tourists, seeing sights, going shopping, hanging out on the (normal) beaches, etc.

However, I do not like the reputation that a great number of them give gay male foreigners (in general) of being whoremongers. I do not like the publicly observable fact that much of the time they wind up in the association of Thai prostitutes or other mercenary types and display this pretty much cluelessly within and outside the gay tourist environment. I do not like the gay tourist Thaiglish argot, or the venues set up for gay tourists, or the Thais who work in them.

It is even worse when people who are NOT gay tourists continue this kind of lifestyle in perpetuity as gay expats, but I have at least seen some of them escape that bubble.

For those of us who are not participating in the gay tourist facade, the gay tourist reputation gives us a very high entry barrier in dealing with 'normal' Thais (as, for one example, jdinasia points out here), which is- in my own perhaps deluded opinion- the whole point of engagement with another country and its people. I am not particularly concerned by whether this makes me 'superior' or not, but I feel free to dislike those who make this more troublesome with their own activities.

[sbk]

Is there a difference between gay sex tourists and straight sex tourists (other than the obvious customer base) ?

[isanbirder]

Is there a difference between gay sex tourists and straight sex tourists (other than the obvious customer base) ?

Exactly the same. Many of the straight farangs who retire here are also whoremongers though they describe themselves, coyly, as mongers. And it shows just as much.

[rodentwarrior]

Sex tourists bring nothing, I say again, nothing to this beautiful Country.

Well, erm, except for employment, and money, and help for the folks upcountry and.........

Anyway it's disgusting and should be made illegal. I shall order it banned hence forth.

[LeCharivari]

There is a simple solution for anyone who finds " the gay tourist environment ... or the venues set up for gay tourists" so "troublesome" - don't go to there!! Going there then complaining about it is like going to the beach and complaining because it's sandy! Of course these places are full of ".. gay tourists ...Thai prostitutes or other mercenary types ..etc, etc" - that's who they are set up for and by!

These people, expat and Thai, very seldom go outside their own small "zone" and seldom do anyone else any harm or have any affect on anyone else inside or outside that "zone", and they do each other a great deal of good in an often symbiotic way.

I have never made any secret of being gay and am with my Thai partner 90% of the time when I go out, but I have never had any problem whatsoever in dealing with "normal" Thais or met any sort of "entry barrier" to any level of Thai society, whether it is running into the occasional Mom or Thanpuying I know or being singled out by some Thai singer at a local concert as the only white face there and asked if my Thai partner and I have been together long. I take them at face value and they do me (us) the same courtesy.

Blaming "gay tourists" for whatever real or imagined "barriers" there are in Thailand is like complaining that "everyone hates me because I'm gay / black / Jewish / American / working class / upper class / old / young / fat etc, etc" when that isn't the reason at all.

[LeCharivari]

Is there a difference between gay sex tourists and straight sex tourists (other than the obvious customer base) ?

The same but different, I suppose.

Straights often seem to be younger, but I have never really understood why - surely they can't all have problems getting sex at home, while young gays can get as much as they want?

Straights seem less inhibited about getting "close" anywhere, whether its while waiting for the cashier in the supermarket or over the table playing pool, but maybe that's down to their Thai partners as much as their own inhibitions.

Gays seem to be less into drinking sessions and ending up face-down in the street and more into a quiet drink and ending up face-down in bed (metaphorically speaking).

Straights don't seem worried about how old/experienced their partners are, while most gays seem to prefer at least some element of youthful athleticism.

Gays seem to stick to their own "zones" on the beach, while straights don't seem to worry about making fools of themselves anywhere.

[endure]

I like Thailand because it doesn't subscribe to the Puritanical moral judgements of the west. It's rather unnerving to find that the Puritans are alive and well in Prathet Thai.

[sbk]

Gays seem to stick to their own "zones" on the beach, while straights don't seem to worry about making fools of themselves anywhere.

lol

Well, endure I guess it depends, many Thai people disapprove of the sex industry and many Thai women I know are offended that they are automatically considered to be prostitutes, I doubt the same is thought of all gay Thai men. Additionally, at least in my experience, sex workers are considered near the very bottom of the social ladder so that, to me at least, doesn't scream acceptance.

[Ijustwannateach]

I like Thailand because it doesn't subscribe to the Puritanical moral judgements of the west. It's rather unnerving to find that the Puritans are alive and well in Prathet Thai.

You don't get it (try re-reading the above message). What they do is their business and I don't care as long as it doesn't affect me by proxy. Thai people are doing the same things, I'm quite aware. The difference is that the Thais are clueful enough not to flout it out in public and have people start avoiding them. I'm not bashing sex tourists because they are generally immoral but because they are crassly and perhaps wilfully unaware of the cultural taboo lines they are crossing publicly. This does not reflect well on gay foreigners in Thailand.

And it was the Victorians who were super uptight about sex, not the Puritans. For example, The Scarlet Letter was written in the social mode of Victoria, only disguised as a Puritan story. If you had ever been part of a real Thai community, you might have been surprised how important and fragile reputation can be in village life.

[endure]

I like Thailand because it doesn't subscribe to the Puritanical moral judgements of the west. It's rather unnerving to find that the Puritans are alive and well in Prathet Thai.

You don't get it (try re-reading the above message). What they do is their business and I don't care as long as it doesn't affect me by proxy.

I'm sorry but I don't understand this. Why should the actions of some perfect stranger who has nothing in common with you apart from the fact that they're 'farang' affect the way that your Thai friends regard you?

[Ijustwannateach]

I am not concerned about how my real friends perceive me- they know how I am. The problem is in meeting new, normal Thais (who likely have never had a foreign acquaintance before, and would have no special reason to make one- in other words, most of the real gay Thais in the entire nation) and the effects that tourists have on their perception of foreigners. People who don't visit real venues in Thailand won't recognise these effects, however, because they think tourist places are 'normal':

Any foreigner who goes into almost any 'real' gay venue will quickly be approached by the small but always-present group of prostitutes and moneygrubbers endemic in all such places, almost universally speaking the pidgin English which characterises them ('Where you go?' 'What hotel you stay in?' 'You take care me?'). Many foreigners don't realise this- partly because, unfortunately, many of them expect to be paying for whatever Thai company they manage to acquire- and don't recognise it as a bad sign.

Often the foreigners who visit such places can only find them because of commercial company. When they almost uniformly come into them with the prostitute friends, everyone in the place knows it (obvious to the prostitutes, but not the foreigner), and it immediately creates a damping effect on any other foreigner trying to meet real Thais- why would they want to hang out with people who always bring or hang out with prostitutes?

Other foreigners present at the same time, even without compensated 'friends', usually don't know how to behave- for example, they behave they way tourists would in Silom or Pattaya or other such unreal places, because they assume that this is 'normal'- immediately put off the Thais and add to the 'let's not be associated with the clueless foreigners' effect mentioned above.

It would be challenging enough to learn to engage with such environments without the perceptions engendered by gay tourists and the gay tourist scene, but those perceptions add to the difficulty unnecessarily and in my view, to the disadvantage of those foreigners who are trying to meet and socialise with real gay Thais.

Furthermore, the presumptions about foreigners and their habits extends beyond the entertainment scene into daily life, because the kind of gay Thais going to real gay Thai venues are also the kind that you would meet working in real jobs in real life. And why would they want to hang out with the kind of people that everyone always sees going out with prostitutes?

[LeCharivari]

I like Thailand because it doesn't subscribe to the Puritanical moral judgements of the west. It's rather unnerving to find that the Puritans are alive and well in Prathet Thai.

You don't get it (try re-reading the above message). What they do is their business and I don't care as long as it doesn't affect me by proxy. Thai people are doing the same things, I'm quite aware. The difference is that the Thais are clueful enough not to flout it out in public and have people start avoiding them. I'm not bashing sex tourists because they are generally immoral but because they are crassly and perhaps wilfully unaware of the cultural taboo lines they are crossing publicly. This does not reflect well on gay foreigners in Thailand.

I'm a bit lost by this one too, endure - even if "sex tourists ... are crassly and perhaps wilfully unaware of the cultural taboo lines they are crossing publicly" I don't see how this affects anyone else (tourist or expat) unless they are behaving in a similar way. I find it rather difficult to believe that Thai people (or at least those I have met) are all so naive and narrow-minded that they brand all foreigners as the same just because of the behaviour of some, particularly when that behaviour is so identifiable (over the top hugging and kissing, a mini thong with a maxi stomach, etc).

If I go out looking like a football hooligan or a lager lout and I behave like one, I expect that Thais will recognize me as one and treat me accordingly.

If I behave like a sex tourist (gay or straight, both are equally identifiable), again I am sure I will be recognized as one and treated accordingly (for better or worse).

If I don't behave like a sex tourist, but I make no secret of being gay (I walk together with my partner, we are obviously "an item", etc), I not only don't see why I should be "avoided" like a sex tourist, but I never have been.

I just can't accept that Thais are any less able to distinguish between a "sex tourist" (gay or straight) and a "regular" tourist or expat, and that the behaviour of the former is taken as any sort of reflection of the latter - maybe, as we increasingly seem to, IJWT and I simply move in different circles.

[endure]

Wot LC said. Growing up gay in the west taught me that people who make assumptions based on generalities (he's gay - he's a farang - she's black) without making the effort to get to know that gay/farang/black person better aren't worth the candle anyway.

[LeCharivari]

I am not concerned about how my real friends perceive me- they know how I am. ..etc, etc

So many bizarre points - so many questions (and answers):

The problem is in meeting new, normal Thais (who likely have never had a foreign acquaintance before, and would have no special reason to make one- in other words, most of the real gay Thais in the entire nation) and the effects that tourists have on their perception of foreigners.

Let's be realistic here - most Thais have met foreigners and tourists in some form or another, and most "real gay Thais" in "any 'real' gay venue" will either have "had a foreign acquaintance before" or they will have a friend who has, from whom they have heard all the lurid details. This may have been true 30 years ago or more, but today? Hardly any chance.

Many foreigners don't realise this- partly because, unfortunately, many of them expect to be paying for whatever Thai company they manage to acquire- and don't recognise it as a bad sign.

Maybe they "expect to be paying for whatever Thai company they manage to acquire" because they are aware that in Thailand the custom and tradition has ALWAYS been that whoever is the richest pays, regardless of whether they are farang or Thai, and their holiday budget usually makes them better off than most Thais they are likely to meet in ""any 'real' gay venue" (although some rich Thais do "slum it" occasionally). This is only a "bad sign" to those who choose to avoid the custom.

Any foreigner who goes into almost any 'real' gay venue will quickly be approached by the small but always-present group of prostitutes and moneygrubbers endemic in all such places, almost universally speaking the pidgin English which characterises them ('Where you go?' 'What hotel you stay in?' 'You take care me?').

So if they are not "prostitutes and moneygrubbers" they can speak either fluent English, or none at all in these "'real' gay venues"? I never even got that as a greeting in any commercial Thai gay bar.

People who don't visit real venues in Thailand won't recognise these effects, however, because they think tourist places are 'normal':

Well, if they "don't visit real venues" (the ones you go to) then they aren't going to cause anyone any problem there, are they?

Often the foreigners who visit such places can only find them because of commercial company. When they almost uniformly come into them with the prostitute friends, everyone in the place knows it (obvious to the prostitutes, but not the foreigner), and it immediately creates a damping effect on any other foreigner trying to meet real Thais- why would they want to hang out with people who always bring or hang out with prostitutes?

If "any other foreigner trying to meet real Thais" there (such as you) doesn't "always bring or hang out with prostitutes" then this can't be the reason why they don't want to "hang out" with them (or you). Maybe there's some other reason.

Other foreigners present at the same time, even without compensated 'friends', usually don't know how to behave- for example, they behave they way tourists would in Silom or Pattaya or other such unreal places, because they assume that this is 'normal'- immediately put off the Thais and add to the 'let's not be associated with the clueless foreigners' effect mentioned above.

As above. Why should this be a problem for anyone who does "know how to behave" and who is clearly not a "clueless foreigner"? Surely being the only clued-in foreigner present in a sea of clueless and offensive sexpats should make you stand out and be a valuable catch?

... why would they want to hang out with the kind of people that everyone always sees going out with prostitutes?

No reason at all - maybe anyone who looks and behaves like "the kind of people that everyone always sees going out with prostitutes" could avoid all these problems by simply not looking and behaving like them.

.... the kind of gay Thais going to real gay Thai venues are also the kind that you would meet working in real jobs in real life.

Some of us do "meet and socialise with real gay Thais" when they are "working in real jobs in real life" or when they are doing all the various things that "normal Thais" do every day. We don't need to go to "real gay Thai venues" to meet them.

Edited September 12, 2011 by LeCharivari

[kek]

Furthermore, the presumptions about foreigners and their habits extends beyond the entertainment scene into daily life, because the kind of gay Thais going to real gay Thai venues are also the kind that you would meet working in real jobs in real life. And why would they want to hang out with the kind of people that everyone always sees going out with prostitutes?

Please can you give us the names of a few "real gay Thai venues" so that the wholesome and moral members of this board can experience them?

Khrap Omm :jap:

[LeCharivari]

Additionally, at least in my experience, sex workers are considered near the very bottom of the social ladder so that, to me at least, doesn't scream acceptance.

Agreed, sbk, but someone has to be at the bottom otherwise no-one could be at the top.

Personally, though, I don't think that justifies those of us who were born fortunate enough to never have to consider that as a career option vilifying them at at every opportunity.

[sbk]

I don't see anyone here vilifying sex workers. What I do find sad is the need for justifying using another human being as a commodity that is prevalent on these forums.

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, first a reply to Endure:

Of course, the ones who wouldn't meet me because they are too suspicious of the way other foreigners act, I never meet. However, cultivating a good reputation over time has cumulative awards. Was in a pub, for example, not long ago. Some clueless moneyboy who probably didn't hang out there often came up to try to get my attention, rather too quickly, obviously, and insistently. A waiter came by and noticed this guy (I was pretending to count ice cubes and very pointedly not looking at the guy, but he wasn't taking the hint) and shooed him away, saying 'he doesn't do that'. So instead of being one of the GENERAL group of foreigners who do (as generally perceived), I have become an INDIVIDUAL to him by way of my behaviour.

Otherwise,

I find the amount of projection and the intense negative interest focussed on me to be quite illuminating. For the record:

1. I have not once villified sex workers in any way. If pointing out the real way in which they are perceived and positioned in Thai society is supposed to be 'villification' then I am afraid readers who believe this need to get back to Gumdrop Mountain where they will be safe.

2. I have not even villified gay tourists (in general, with a specific exception).

3. I have not even villified gay sex tourists across the board, again with a specific exception.

4. I have not claimed superiority. I am sure there are many other people doing what I do, here and in other countries, much better than how I know to do it here, or even how I can do it ever. It is simply trying to meet real people and date them (at least by local standards; dating style here isn't quite the same as back home).

5. I have not made any comments related to morality. My comments are directly related to real social stigmas of which I have seen the effects attached to me, as a foreigner in the real gay Thai world, because of the effects of the bad public behaviors (by Thai standards) of a particular type of gay tourist or sexpat.

6. I have not even claimed that sex tourists bring nothing to the country, though I find it somewhat delusional when johns start claiming to be social workers. In most countries, the damage that prostitution does to economically disadvantaged people leads them to NEED social workers.

What I have done is replied to Endure's question about what exactly I dislike about a particular group of gay tourists, who happen to be sex tourists, and that is what I mainly see them doing (I don't see the well-behaved ones who hang out on beaches and do real tourist stuff because I work and I'm not usually in those places, but I take for granted that they do exist). I have pointed out what real effects it has, and pointed out that people who don't go to real non-tourist gay places won't probably know about those effects.

So that's what I've done and what I haven't done on this thread. I would suggest that posters try to reply to the topic (which is what they like or don't like about GAY TOURISTS IN THAILAND) rather than wasting their time projecting inaccurately and most likely defensively on me.

Several specific replies are now in the offing:

SBK, thanks for being one of the few posters here who seem to understand my point of view. I would suppose it comes of spending most of your teensy, weensy, eensy bit of time here hanging out with real Thais. You probably also know a thing or two about how Thais perceive foreigners based on their main experience of them being with tourists. Or maybe we're both just making it all up.

LCV, I do not care about your opinions of my posts even on this thread, much less any other, for reasons I have already expressed elsewhere. However, this is not a topic about me. This is not going to become a topic about me (past this post, unless people want warnings). And finally, this is certainly not going to become a topic for you to stalk me about my posts in other topics (especially topics in which I have already indicated I am not interested in further engagement with you), or some kind of bizarro 'in my world the word book means jackrabbit and that it is the only meaning it can have' analysis of my posts in other topics looking for inconsistencies that largely reside inside your own head, or possibly appear because you have taken the posts out of context of their original topics (who'da thunk). I am deleting all of your above material quoting my posts in other topics. You are welcome to post things referencing things I have written in other threads within those threads, where I will also promise to ignore them, but please keep yourself within this thread to the confines of posts within this thread. That goes for other threads as well.

Kek, I have the feeling your heart's in the right place and know you've been a good poster on here for awhile...

but I would rather chew off my own legs than start posting to an anonymous forum the Thai places I like to hang out. If you get to the point where you can speak and read a bit of Thai and function socially in Thai nightlife (the kind with groups sitting/standing around tables) and enjoy it, you'll find your way easily enough.

And with that, I invite those who are actually continuing to discuss the topic (which is not me or my posts on other threads) to continue their discussion of GAY TOURISTS (WHAT'S NOT TO LOVE?). I'm sure there are other compelling things to like about them (don't everybody all post at once, now), and I might even have one or two other types of pet peeve about them that I haven't even talked about yet.

[LeCharivari]

.... What I do find sad is the need for justifying using another human being as a commodity that is prevalent on these forums.

But human beings are used as "a commodity" everywhere, every day, by everybody. They're called "assets" or "personnel" or "resources" or "staff", or "manpower" or "boots on the ground" or a "surge" - anything, usually, but people.

My point is that we are all "commodities" - that's what we all choose to be as soon as we get paid for providing a service. Some of us use our minds, some our bodies, and most a combination of the two to make the most of our assets and our skills.

To some people spending their day cleaning toilets, mucking out stables, mixing cement, planting rice, filleting fish, fighting fires or fighting wars, or even moderating an internet forum, is their idea of hell; to others it is their dream job and they wouldn't be happy doing anything else. As long as they are happy with it and they are doing it of their own free will (and, at least ultimately, causing the minimum harm to others) who are we to judge them or their clients?

There is no "need" to justify using another human being as a commodity - we all do it every day every time we pay for any service. When the people offering a service do so by choice they have already justified what they are doing to themselves, whether it's a Traffic Warden handing out parking fines or a prostitute giving someone a good holiday. Personally, I don't believe I am in any moral position to question someone else's choice about how they make a living as long as it does no harm to others.

The only time anyone "needs" to justify what they or anyone else does is when the accusation is made that a particular group are being "troublesome" and making things "difficult" and "challenging" for others here. In this case the accusation appears baseless as only one poster appears to have experienced any such problems.

What I "love" about gay tourists is that they are a constant source of amusement not only to me but to so many Thais - they are enjoying themselves and they want everyone around them to enjoy themselves too, and they don't really care if you are laughing at them or with them. They are there for fun, to make the most of their holiday without any complications and without upsetting anyone else, and most important of all they haven't forgotten what they are and they're not trying to be anything else.

What I love most of all is that they don't affect me and I don't affect them, as I never have to see them unless I want to. There are plenty of gay Thais around me (probably 20 or so that I can recall within a two minute drive, although I've never thought about it before), but I can't recall ever seeing a single gay farang let alone a gay tourist anywhere around here at all - maybe it's the pig farm!

What's "not to love"? Personally the sight of those thongs, g-strings, whatevers, on some people is just too much and sadly they are usually on the wrong people (probably one of the many reasons why I haven't been to Dongtan beach for well over 10 years), but there are plenty of better, closer beaches where I have yet to see any farangs at all.

[kek]

It is even worse when people who are NOT gay tourists continue this kind of lifestyle in perpetuity as gay expats, but I have at least seen some of them escape that bubble.

Those of you in 'relationships' really should not preach to single guys as if you have a monopoly on morals and behavior. Whatever happened to freedom of choice?

In my experience it is those in relationships that are living the lie; not the confirmed single men. In over a decade of visiting innumerable bars and clubs all over Thailand I cannot think of one Thai/Farang relationship I have met that has been 100% faithful. I have met scores of Thais and Farangs who have asked me not to mention to their partners that I met them on the beach or in Babylon or DJ Station and have introduced the person that is the focus of their attention as 'just a friend'.

Single guys are not disadvantaged or socially inept. We cherish our freedom and independence and enjoy the sexual variety that these qualities of life allow. Furthermore, whether we have met our companion for the night in a gogo bar, a pub or on-line we know that our conscience is clear; that we have not cheated on our closest friend.

Prostitution is available the world over but in Thailand it is a real pleasure to partake in the breadth and depth of the experience. If it's not your cup of tea then don't go to those places that cater for it but please don't preach to those of us who enjoy it. We may know where your partner has been – but do you?

[LeCharivari]

Those of you in 'relationships' really should not preach to single guys as if you have a monopoly on morals and behavior. Whatever happened to freedom of choice?

In my experience it is those in relationships that are living the lie; not the confirmed single men. In over a decade of visiting innumerable bars and clubs all over Thailand I cannot think of one Thai/Farang relationship I have met that has been 100% faithful. I have met scores of Thais and Farangs who have asked me not to mention to their partners that I met them on the beach or in Babylon or DJ Station and have introduced the person that is the focus of their attention as 'just a friend'.

Single guys are not disadvantaged or socially inept. We cherish our freedom and independence and enjoy the sexual variety that these qualities of life allow. Furthermore, whether we have met our companion for the night in a gogo bar, a pub or on-line we know that our conscience is clear; that we have not cheated on our closest friend.

Prostitution is available the world over but in Thailand it is a real pleasure to partake in the breadth and depth of the experience. If it's not your cup of tea then don't go to those places that cater for it but please don't preach to those of us who enjoy it. We may know where your partner has been – but do you?

Kek, I echo your sentiments entirely, even though my own experience does not quite mirror your own. Unless I have misread your post, though, I think that you may have got the wrong end of the stick as to which of us doing the preaching is in a relationship and who isn't - and it may even be the reverse of what you have assumed.

I don't want to misrepresent anyone so I will leave it for other posters to say what relationships they are in (or not in) and whether this affects their view of what there is (or isn't) to love about gay tourists, if they want to.

Believe me, I support your freedom of choice and find nothing wrong with your morals or behaviour at all - my choice is a monogamous relationship, as it works for me, but that doesn't mean either that it works for everyone else (it doesn't) or that I find anything wrong with your "morals and behaviour" or your choice - I don't.

As long as what anyone does is done by consenting adults and doesn't affect others - and I don't think that your behaviour and those who behave similarly, whether gay tourists or gay expats, does have any adverse affect on others except in their own minds - I can't see how anyone can object justifiably in the 21st century.

I have a Civil Partnership with a Thai which could not be better or stronger and which gives me all the "sexual variety" I can handle! We have been together for several years and I can assure you that I have been "100% faithful" throughout and I believe that he has too (although obviously I can't prove it, nor am I interested in finding out).

I would be the first to admit that this is unusual (even very unusual) but as I know of others (OK, a couple of others!) I know that it can and does happen occasionally. I can understand why you have taken offence here and I don't blame you, but any such offence certainly wasn't meant on my part (and I apologise if I offended you) so please don't knock those of us in relationships just because of one individual's view (who may or may not even be in a "relationship").

[LeCharivari]

Furthermore, the presumptions about foreigners and their habits extends beyond the entertainment scene into daily life, because the kind of gay Thais going to real gay Thai venues are also the kind that you would meet working in real jobs in real life. And why would they want to hang out with the kind of people that everyone always sees going out with prostitutes?

Please can you give us the names of a few "real gay Thai venues" so that the wholesome and moral members of this board can experience them?

Khrap Omm :jap:

Kek, now that there are a few more details here about these "real gay Thai venues" that were mentioned elsewhere the penny has finally dropped (sorry, sometimes I am a bit slow) and these sound like what are known as "cruising bars" (or koosing bars colloquially) and they are popular among those cruising for casual sex (or at least cheap sex, as they are also frequented by those at the very bottom end of the commercial sex trade).

I was first taken to one in the backstreets of Bangkok about 25 years ago, and little had changed the last time I visited one about 15 years ago. You won't find them outside the cities, but I am surprised that "gay tourists" would find their way into them, as they are not only well off the beaten track but known for "rough trade" (as the equivalents are in the West) and hardly the place that anyone who does not know their way around would feel at home.

I wouldn't recommend "experiencing" them personally, however much "sexual variety" you enjoy, but each to his own. If you really must experience "real" Thailand I believe some are to be found around the disco near the Naval base in Sattahip where some of Pattaya's more "experienced" lady boys go to of a Friday night - so friends of friends tell me, of course.

I may be wrong (again), but if "koosing bars" = "real gay Thai venues" I don't think you'll find much to love about any "gay tourists" you'll find there.

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, to continue to clear things up, since the topic continues to drift back to me: I am not in a relationship, and I am not particularly monogamous at the moment. I am not preaching to those who wish to employ prostitutes who are consenting adults, etc. on any kind of moral basis (though I do have issues personally with the ethics of some forms of prostitution which are not at all part of the topic here- this is NOT a straightforward pro-prostitution vs. anti-prostitution issue that I am trying to discuss). I am complaining that those people who appear publicly in places where socialising with prostitutes is not publicly endorsed really do cause problems for those who don't, and most of those people who do are, I believe, tourists or only recently expats, and that's my beef with tourists.

At this point, I think any further explanation is just repeating myself (even this message is really just repeating myself). So if I'm not getting the point across, I guess I'll give up and encourage people to re-read my messages.

[kek]

I am not fond of gay tourism (generally, with specific exceptions of course) because of the behaviour of many gay tourists, if you must know.

I am complaining that those people who appear publicly in places where socialising with prostitutes is not publicly endorsed really do cause problems for those who don't, and most of those people who do are,

I have some sympathy for Ijustwannateach because the public behavior of some farang, be they tourist or resident, is not acceptable in Thai society, or indeed in any polite environment. In particular I am talking about public displays of affection – kissing, fondling, groping etc. (I must point out that a quick peck on the cheek or holding hands is NOT what I'm talking about).

I was in a pub a few weeks ago and a couple were there engaged in activities that frankly, would be more suitable for the bedroom or on the set of a porn movie. Prolonged deep kissing; hands down shirts and inside underwear, crotch groping etc. Over the years I have seen this from time to time in straight and gay establishments, in pubs, clubs and restaurants, even on the sky train; mainly between farang couples but occasionally with Thai/farang liaisons. Even in gogo bars it makes me feel uncomfortable - am I expected to watch; or do I turn to face the wall or leave the bar?

What are these people trying to prove? I have no objection to whatever activities they consensually want to engage in the privacy of a short-time room or a 5 star pad ... but in public I cringe.

As far as socializing with prostitutes in public establishments, I have no problem – indeed how am I to know what profession they are? Most Thai prostitutes I have known are usually unfailingly polite when sober – they may be badly educated and lack ambition but most are better behaved than their farang consorts.

[LeCharivari]

I have some sympathy for Ijustwannateach because the public behavior of some farang, be they tourist or resident, is not acceptable in Thai society, or indeed in any polite environment. In particular I am talking about public displays of affection – kissing, fondling, groping etc. (I must point out that a quick peck on the cheek or holding hands is NOT what I'm talking about).

I was in a pub a few weeks ago and a couple were there engaged in activities that frankly, would be more suitable for the bedroom or on the set of a porn movie. Prolonged deep kissing; hands down shirts and inside underwear, crotch groping etc. Over the years I have seen this from time to time in straight and gay establishments, in pubs, clubs and restaurants, even on the sky train; mainly between farang couples but occasionally with Thai/farang liaisons. Even in gogo bars it makes me feel uncomfortable - am I expected to watch; or do I turn to face the wall or leave the bar?

What are these people trying to prove? I have no objection to whatever activities they consensually want to engage in the privacy of a short-time room or a 5 star pad ... but in public I cringe.

As far as socializing with prostitutes in public establishments, I have no problem – indeed how am I to know what profession they are? Most Thai prostitutes I have known are usually unfailingly polite when sober – they may be badly educated and lack ambition but most are better behaved than their farang consorts.

I agree to a certain extent, kek, but in my experience here I don't think these "activities" are so widespread that they are seen in any way as typical of farang tourists or residents, except in those areas and bars given over to those activities - Sunee Plaza, Boyztown, Walking Street and the "koosing" bars, for example. Away from those areas most Thais I know are intelligent enough not to judge all farangs by the lowest common denominator.

[Ijustwannateach]

I am not fond of gay tourism (generally, with specific exceptions of course) because of the behaviour of many gay tourists, if you must know.

I am complaining that those people who appear publicly in places where socialising with prostitutes is not publicly endorsed really do cause problems for those who don't, and most of those people who do are,

I have some sympathy for Ijustwannateach because the public behavior of some farang, be they tourist or resident, is not acceptable in Thai society, or indeed in any polite environment. In particular I am talking about public displays of affection – kissing, fondling, groping etc. (I must point out that a quick peck on the cheek or holding hands is NOT what I'm talking about).

I was in a pub a few weeks ago and a couple were there engaged in activities that frankly, would be more suitable for the bedroom or on the set of a porn movie. Prolonged deep kissing; hands down shirts and inside underwear, crotch groping etc. Over the years I have seen this from time to time in straight and gay establishments, in pubs, clubs and restaurants, even on the sky train; mainly between farang couples but occasionally with Thai/farang liaisons. Even in gogo bars it makes me feel uncomfortable - am I expected to watch; or do I turn to face the wall or leave the bar?

What are these people trying to prove? I have no objection to whatever activities they consensually want to engage in the privacy of a short-time room or a 5 star pad ... but in public I cringe.

As far as socializing with prostitutes in public establishments, I have no problem – indeed how am I to know what profession they are? Most Thai prostitutes I have known are usually unfailingly polite when sober – they may be badly educated and lack ambition but most are better behaved than their farang consorts.

I also cringe at the behaviours you mention, Kek- though they are not particularly what I was on about. I would add to your list- maybe things we could call 'party-fouls'- overly aggressive (and overly quick) flirting, inability to read subtle signs of rejection, lack of understanding about the 'tone' of the place (what sorts of activities are socially endorsed in a particular place at a particular time- this can change in the same place depending on the time or state of inebriation, for instance)- if you're in a dancing place, dance. If you're in a drinking place, drink. If you're in a karaoke place, sing. Eat and converse at restaurants. The Thai context for some of these places makes them perhaps a bit alien for foreigners, but if you can't learn to enjoy them- and really enjoy them- it will be easy for others to see and not particularly rewarded.

But I stand by my opinion that it is pretty darn obvious in MOST instances when foreigners, tourists in particular, go out with commercial types. And it is common enough an association between foreigners and Thais that it give foreigners a reputation. It is from a complex of appearance, behaviour, context, and social factors that most Thais make these judgements, and though they may be wrong once in a blue moon, usually they are correct. The 'which is more likely' principle is a good common sense measure for such judgements.