Israeli ministers meet to discuss Israel-Turkey crisis

[Jingthing]

Why they would be complicit in 1967 is a mystery to me.

I have a hunch you know why

Same yesterday/Same today

Many of us don't speak tin foil hat lingo, so please don't have a private conversation here, spell it out.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Jingthing

[Scott]

this is moving in a direction that will result in closure.

[Pedzie]

Let's hope common sense will prevail and Turkey-Israel relations will go back to being normal.

But, does Erdogan have common sense ?

Jem

Does Netanyahu or the Israeli government have any sense?

Israel appears to revel in stirring up anti-Israeli sentiment with it's neighbours

How can you stir something up which was always boiling and actively looking for an excuse to erupt? Israel kept a really low profile during the so called Arab spring but to no avail due to Islamic extremists and their leftard allies doing all they could to embroil Israel.

And the years before the arab uprising.....?

[Pakboong]

We often hear of the "Special" nature of the relationship between the USA and Israel. The nature of that relationship is completely relevant to this and most of the similar topics on these subjects. Just how "Special" is extremely important to any conclusions one might have regarding the problems in the middle east today and historically.

I for one, am connected to this relationship by birth and by my profession before retirement. It was not an option, I became part of it all and that was simply that. I am an American and am connected to this "Special" relationship what ever it is.

[Pedzie]

We often hear of the "Special" nature of the relationship between the USA and Israel. The nature of that relationship is completely relevant to this and most of the similar topics on these subjects. Just how "Special" is extremely important to any conclusions one might have regarding the problems in the middle east today and historically.

I for one, am connected to this relationship by birth and by my profession before retirement. It was not an option, I became part of it all and that was simply that. I am an American and am connected to this "Special" relationship what ever it is.

How isolated will Israel be when the American empire finally falls? And fall it will, like every other empire before it...

Again I'm not anti Israel or anti US for that matter, yes there is a major problem with Islamic extremists that Israel has to deal with on a daily basis but don't you think the issue of the Palestines causes a lot of the tension, Israel has illegally stolen land from these poor people and ignored countless UN resolutions. My point is Israel is doing itself no favours by continuing to stir up hatred towards itself, the shooting of the Turkish activists was really the final straw for Turkey, and Israel will not apologise??

I know this is off topic kinda, but something need said

[geriatrickid]

Turkey is seeing just how far it can push things and it is about to get a smack in the chops. There is a growing segment that believes Turkey is trying to create a crisis for the EU by using its position in Nato to provoke a confrontation with Israel. The critical issue isn't really Israel but the status of the illegal occupation of Cyprus by Turkey. It is rather hypocritical for anypne seeking to excuse Turkey's behaviour in this matter to ignore the continued occupation of Cyprus. How is it that Turkey is described as a liberator for Gaza but the ongoing illegal activities in Cyprus is ignored? This is how Turkey is hitting back at the EU and Greece on Cyprus.

In the event that Turkey has a confrontation with Israel, many European countries will be delighted, particularly if Turkey gets its nose bloodied. Austria has consistently fought the entry of Turkey into the EU and it has had tacit support from Spain and Germany. Countries that had previously suffered at the hands of Turkish colonial expansionists don't want anything done to assist Turkey. Bulgaria, Romania, Greece all want Turkey contained. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia played both sides of the conflict; Put Nato and the EU into a struggle, and keep Turkey off balance so it doesn't act as a friend to former Russian republics seeking greater power and a stronger muslim presence. Even Iran, might sleep a little easier if Turkey was knocked off balance for a bit.

There is a perception in the middle east and the region that the USA is finished and no longer has any clout. In financial crisis and wracked bypetty political arguments the USA is seen as weak and crippled. This is why so many people are pushing the envelope. The great equalizer isn't able to balance things the way it used to. Unfortunately for all those assuming that the USA is out of the picture, they are wrong. Very wrong. The Greek Anerican community may be smal, but it is a fully integrated community and it has clout. Along with the Christian community and those of EUropean heritage from the region, there is a sizeable segment of the USA population that is not fond of Turkey. Having Israel on board as a friend acted to blunt those concerns, particularly since the Jewish American community had close relations with Greek American community particularly in the area of social service delivery and charities. It is not uncommon to see there be common support of various charities. The leaders of those charities are usually the ones that also lobby for the the respective states. The Greeks are now saying, we told you so. The Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians are saying we told you so. The fears of Germany and Austria that they would be swamped with Turkish workers had there been EU membership granted to Turkey are somewhat relieved and they have no interest in seeing Turkey move away from being disliked.

The conflict has far bigger political ramifications than just a dispute between Turkey and Israel. It is in effect a proxy dispute between the European region hostile to Turkey and Turkey itself. It is an attempt to see just how far the USA can be pushed away in respect to the ongoing conflicts in Syria and with Iran. This dispute is going to have some odd bedfellows as it progresses and the dark horse will be Putin's Russia. Does the former KGB spymaster gamble on the fight or does he draw a line in the border to re-establish Russia's regional clout. Watch Mr. Putin to get a sense of where this is all going.

[Pedzie]

Turkey is seeing just how far it can push things and it is about to get a smack in the chops. There is a growing segment that believes Turkey is trying to create a crisis for the EU by using its position in Nato to provoke a confrontation with Israel. The critical issue isn't really Israel but the status of the illegal occupation of Cyprus by Turkey. It is rather hypocritical for anypne seeking to excuse Turkey's behaviour in this matter to ignore the continued occupation of Cyprus. How is it that Turkey is described as a liberator for Gaza but the ongoing illegal activities in Cyprus is ignored? This is how Turkey is hitting back at the EU and Greece on Cyprus.

In the event that Turkey has a confrontation with Israel, many European countries will be delighted, particularly if Turkey gets its nose bloodied. Austria has consistently fought the entry of Turkey into the EU and it has had tacit support from Spain and Germany. Countries that had previously suffered at the hands of Turkish colonial expansionists don't want anything done to assist Turkey. Bulgaria, Romania, Greece all want Turkey contained. I wouldn't be surprised if Russia played both sides of the conflict; Put Nato and the EU into a struggle, and keep Turkey off balance so it doesn't act as a friend to former Russian republics seeking greater power and a stronger muslim presence. Even Iran, might sleep a little easier if Turkey was knocked off balance for a bit.

There is a perception in the middle east and the region that the USA is finished and no longer has any clout. In financial crisis and wracked bypetty political arguments the USA is seen as weak and crippled. This is why so many people are pushing the envelope. The great equalizer isn't able to balance things the way it used to. Unfortunately for all those assuming that the USA is out of the picture, they are wrong. Very wrong. The Greek Anerican community may be smal, but it is a fully integrated community and it has clout. Along with the Christian community and those of EUropean heritage from the region, there is a sizeable segment of the USA population that is not fond of Turkey. Having Israel on board as a friend acted to blunt those concerns, particularly since the Jewish American community had close relations with Greek American community particularly in the area of social service delivery and charities. It is not uncommon to see there be common support of various charities. The leaders of those charities are usually the ones that also lobby for the the respective states. The Greeks are now saying, we told you so. The Hungarians, Romanians and Bulgarians are saying we told you so. The fears of Germany and Austria that they would be swamped with Turkish workers had there been EU membership granted to Turkey are somewhat relieved and they have no interest in seeing Turkey move away from being disliked.

The conflict has far bigger political ramifications than just a dispute between Turkey and Israel. It is in effect a proxy dispute between the European region hostile to Turkey and Turkey itself. It is an attempt to see just how far the USA can be pushed away in respect to the ongoing conflicts in Syria and with Iran. This dispute is going to have some odd bedfellows as it progresses and the dark horse will be Putin's Russia. Does the former KGB spymaster gamble on the fight or does he draw a line in the border to re-establish Russia's regional clout. Watch Mr. Putin to get a sense of where this is all going.

I agree with lots you have mentioned here, the fears of Germany&Austria about Turkey entering the EU, Turkey is at least 10 years off from even being considered for entry into the EU, by this time the EU will hopefully be finished, and when I mentioned the 'end of the American empire' I did not for one minute mean that America simply falls away as the worlds only superpower, there is stuff going on that neither you or me or anyone else hears about in the controlled media, the current debt crisis that has nearly crippled the US and EU has simply been designed to happen by the greedy shadowy globalist elite who control the puppets that are Obama&Cameron and most other EU leaders. Things will eventually get that bad that there will only be one answer, the emergence of the new world economy and world bank. The creation of the EU was the first step in all this and was planned decades ago. When president Bush was in power he doubled America's debt during his tenure, he also held secret talks with the leaders of Mexico and Canada about making all of the Americas a 'free trade zone' The same way the EC now the EU was set up!! If this New World Order does happen then lots of the petty arguing between nations like Turkey-Israel etc will simply become irrelevant.

America...in it's present form simply can't continue on it's present path, in a few years it's national debt will be the size of it's GDP, The US government knows this, president Obama is mearly a puppet doing as he is told as I mentioned, and what he has been told is not in the nations best interest, the US government has been taken over by wall street and the military industrial complex, you only have to look at Obama's administration to see this with the likes of Timothy Geigner as treasury chief and Bernanke as head of the federal reserve which of course is really a privately owned bank!! It isn't the American peoples!!

As for Russia, it doesn't really have much clout (in the political world anyway) The country is basically mafia controlled, yes it still has major natural reserves like oil&gas, it's economy is in a mess and the country is tied so much to the US dollar, no-one really uses the the rouble.

As crazy as all this may sound but it looks like most of the developed world will morph into 1 economy with 1 central bank etc, even EU leaders are talking about more integration to solve the debt crisis, I sincerely hope the NWO order does not happen. what are the options though? All this has been planned for decades it's hard to see another way out.

I have forgotten to mention 1 other thing, China, my grandfather told me when i was 13 that that yellowman will rule the world one day, we shall see...

[Steely Dan]

http://www.debka.com/article/21311/

Military tension is building up among Greece, Turkey and Israel as Cyprus prepares to start exploratory drilling for gas offshore Monday, Sept. 19 in the face of threats from Ankara. All three have placed their air and sea forces in a state of preparedness along with the Cypriot army.

It's fascinating to watch megalomaniacs in action, they all share the same traits and Erdogan fits the bill perfectly. The grandiosity he displays in appointing himself leader of the Arab world is one sign. The scapegoating of those who oppose him is another. The narcissistic rage when thwarted and fondness for litigation make a compelling case. But the most defining characteristic of all is they all over reach themselves and come unstuck due to their own actions.

Had Turkey played a moderate game from 2003 when Erdogan came to power a settlement of the Cyprus issue might have resulted, which would not only have removed one of the main obstacles to Turkish accession to the E.U. Furthermore the enormous gas and oil reserves in Cypriot waters might have been shared out amicably seeing as until recently Turkey and Israel had good relations, but now it's all gone up in smoke.

Now we have the prospect of Israeli-Cypriot oil exploration starting Monday. The rig is owned by Noble energy a U.S firm, but Israel and Greece quite rightly judge Erdogan unstable enough to self immolate rather than suffer a bruised ego so Israeli planes already sit at Greek airports ready to attack Turkey from two directions if the Turks are foolish enough to invade Cyprus (again).

The death of the nine militants are a modern day simile to the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, in other words a pretext for an existing powder keg - which is a gas field large enough to supply the entire U.S economy. Yet I notice the resident tinfoil hat wearers seem so preoccupied by a friendly fire incident back in 1967 that they have taken the death of the nine activists at face value. Perhaps they should adjust their antennae.

So briefly if I may.

Israel have played a very smart game. They feared Obama would throw them under a bus if given a chance and Turkey have been trying to prise Washington away from supporting Israel. The military and oil/exploration agreements with Greece and Cyprus were clever in that Turkey would put itself on collision course with the E.U if they attacked Cyprus. They have also been ignoring Turkish provocation and telling Erdogan basically to grow up. Being ignored may be just enough to tip Erdogan over the edge into doing something really stupid like attacking Cyprus, which would then force Obama to come off the fence in support of it's own oil firm (Noble energy) and in a stroke bang goes Obama's outreach policy to the Islamic world.

Obama is due to meet Erdogan Wednesday, why does the drilling start Monday and not wait a couple of days till Obama can directly tell Erdogan to wind his neck in?

[Pakboong]

Minor crisis last night. My wife insists that I not wear my tinfoil hat to bed. While I was asleep, she trashed my favorite. Thankfully, I have more.

She simply does not understand the problem.

[Steely Dan]

Tick, tick, tick.

http://disasteremergencysupplies.com/snafu/2011/09/drumbeats-of-war-war-on-monday/

[johna]

The Israeli troops were attacked after the boarded the ships in International waters ( 75 miles offshore)

The crews of the flotilla fought back in self defense, 19 of them were murdered and more than 30 injured.

Perhaps you could tell us how many Israelis were killed and injured?

You have a strange idea of what self defense means, not to mention 9 were killed not 19, but don't let facts get in the way of a good story.

So the answer to my question is no Israeli's were killed or injured.

[Jingthing]

So the answer to my question is no Israeli's were killed or injured.

Really? Evidence please.

Ten of the commandos were also wounded, one of them seriously

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

[metisdead]

Off topic posts have been removed. As Scott stated, if it continues, this topic will soon be closed.

[geriatrickid]

Tick, tick, tick.

http://disasteremerg...-war-on-monday/

A very interesting commentary. However, what is not mentioned is that Turkey just signed an agreement with the USA in respect to the positioning of US systems to defend against Iranian missiles. Is this Turkey's attempt to bargain with the USA?

[johna]

So the answer to my question is no Israeli's were killed or injured.

Really? Evidence please.

Ten of the commandos were also wounded, one of them seriously

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

Thanks for the info, but only one Israeli storm trooper was seriously injured, My deepest sympathies.

[Steely Dan]

Tick, tick, tick.

http://disasteremerg...-war-on-monday/

A very interesting commentary. However, what is not mentioned is that Turkey just signed an agreement with the USA in respect to the positioning of US systems to defend against Iranian missiles. Is this Turkey's attempt to bargain with the USA?

I'm sure Turkey are trying to prize Israel from U.S protection, indeed with Erdogan behaving as he is any guarantees the U.S makes to Israel about including them in the missile shield have to be regarded as null and void. Anyway if Erdogan has the psychological makeup I postulated then I think the time from now till immediately after the 23rd will be fraught with danger.

[koheesti]

So the answer to my question is no Israeli's were killed or injured.

Really? Evidence please.

Ten of the commandos were also wounded, one of them seriously

http://en.wikipedia....a_flotilla_raid

Thanks for the info, but only one Israeli storm trooper was seriously injured, My deepest sympathies.

That's what happens when thugs attack highly trained commandos.

[Wallaby]

That's what happens when thugs attack highly trained commandos.

And there you have the joke of the day.

[geriatrickid]

That's what happens when thugs attack highly trained commandos.

And there you have the joke of the day.

I do not think attempting to inflict fatal blows with sharpened steel rods is hardly peaceful. Had the protestors not attacked and not fired upon the IDF, no one would have been shot in self defense.

[GentlemanJim]

That's what happens when thugs attack highly trained commandos.

And there you have the joke of the day.

I do not think attempting to inflict fatal blows with sharpened steel rods is hardly peaceful. Had the protestors not attacked and not fired upon the IDF, no one would have been shot in self defense.

But why should they not have attacked the IDF? I thought any unauthorized boarding of a ship in international waters was termed piracy. The IDF had no right or jurisdiction to board the vessel. So I guess the question is just which side were the armed thugs?

Anyway all of our various retorts to each other are irrelevant, a much bigger game is afoot, a game which could get very ugly, very quickly.

[flying]

Would it be hard for those cheerleaders who constantly trot out videos to realize it looks like/smells like one sided propaganda?

It has been said numerous times only one side is allowed to even have videos because everything audio/video belonging to the ship was confiscated.

So please pack up the entertainment & realize no matter how many times

you would like to show one side of the story it is akin to a kangaroo court.

If ever the pirates/IDF would like to present the confiscated videos the other side took then perhaps....like that is going to happen....

we could call it an objective presentation searching for the truth.

But........

Until then Kangaroo court adjourned

Edited September 19, 2011 by flying

[johna]

That's what happens when thugs attack highly trained commandos.

No it was Israeli troops who were clearly the thugs here, attacking the flotilla in international waters murdering 9 people, and injuring more than 30.

The crew fought back in self defense.

[Steely Dan]

Here's Michael Coren who has things absolutely right as usual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94dCpnUC85c&feature=player_embedded

[Steely Dan]

No it was Israeli troops who were clearly the thugs here, attacking the flotilla in international waters murdering 9 people, and injuring more than 30.

The crew fought back in self defense.

Funny how several other ships were boarded which had real peace activists on and nobody was injured at all on them, but just the Turkish one filled with hate mongering Hamas activists caused any problems, but don't let mere facts get in the way of your prejudices.

[flying]

Here's Michael Coren who has things absolutely right as usual.

Of course he does.....See he even says so

His latest book, Why Catholics are Right, was published in 2011.

Then again Coren's father was Jewish as was he....then Coren himself became a Catholic....

Then he renounced being a Roman Catholic after he was called on some things he said...Then he again became a Catholic & wrote a book on Catholicism.

Yeah he must be right...such a stable guy.

Bright on other subjects too!

Michael Coren wrote a column in 2006 titled "Why is AIDS so special?" in which he said "At its most simple, stop fornicating."

Zealots..... where would we be without them

Edited September 19, 2011 by flying

[Steely Dan]

Here's Michael Coren who has things absolutely right as usual.

Of course he does.....See he even says so

His latest book, Why Catholics are Right, was published in 2011.

Then again Coren's father was Jewish as was he....then Coren himself became a Catholic....

Then he renounced being a Roman Catholic after he was called on some things he said...Then he again became a Catholic & wrote a book on Catholicism.

Yeah he must be right...such a stable guy.

Zealots..... where would be be without them

I guess that means the invasion of Cyprus, the Armenian genocide (and it's denial) and the recent Neo-Ottomanism never happened then and Turkey are not being hypocritical having a hissy fit about international law infringements

[flying]

Turkey are not being hypocritical having a hissy fit about international law infringements

Sticking with the topic I will say +1

As far as I can see & given the evidence *allowed* in the kangaroo court...Yes Turkey should be more

than upset at the loss of life on their ship as well as it being aggressively boarded 60-75 miles out at sea

in International waters.

I also see their further statement that the next will be escorted by a military ship as a normal reaction.

Not unlike the skipper of the USS Liberty requesting a battleship/destroyer escort for even them even then to travel through similar waters.

Sadly neither the USS Liberty nor the Turkish ship had escorts & both received basically the same treatment in International waters.

More sadly is that neither incident were ever properly investigated.....IMHO

Edited September 19, 2011 by flying

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted

[Steely Dan]

Turkey are not being hypocritical having a hissy fit about international law infringements

Sticking with the topic I will say +1

As far as I can see & given the evidence *allowed* in the kangaroo court...Yes Turkey should be more

than upset at the loss of life on their ship as well as it being aggressively boarded 60-75 miles out at sea

in International waters.

I also see their further statement that the next will be escorted by a military ship as a normal reaction.

Not unlike the skipper of the USS Liberty requesting a battleship/destroyer escort for even them even then to travel through similar waters.

Sadly neither the USS Liberty nor the Turkish ship had escorts & both received basically the same treatment in International waters.

More sadly is that neither incident were ever properly investigated.....IMHO

I can't comment on the Liberty except to suspect it's off topic. As for the Mavi Marmara it was investigated by the UN approved Palmer report which both Israel and Turkey agreed to be bound by, that's until the report found the blockade of Gaza to be legal whereupon Turkey declared the report 'null and void'.

[flying]

I can't comment on the Liberty except to suspect it's off topic. As for the Mavi Marmara it was investigated by the UN approved Palmer report which both Israel and Turkey agreed to be bound by, that's until the report found the blockade of Gaza to be legal whereupon Turkey declared the report 'null and void'.

I was not implying the Liberty was on topic just that the two incidents were fairly identical so perhaps on topic after all?

Both ships were attacked OUTSIDE of the Gaza Blockade limits. Both incidents resulted in deaths to those being attacked.

Neither of which were at war with Israel

Call it precedent

As for the findings of blockade of Gaza to be legal.....That is a situational dance... as it in reality has not been questioned.....at this time

What has been questioned however is the aggressive boarding of a ship in International waters...OUTSIDE of the Gaza Blockade

Unless of course you are defining the blockade of Gaza to include International waters outside the policing area surrounding Gaza?

If so then be clear & just say so. Be clear & say the Israelis rule the seven seas if they deem fit.

Otherwise lets call the Gaza Blockade what it is. x nautical miles wide & x nautical miles long. At this time considered legal to police within those dimensions.

Also I would not be 100% sure that the whole mess is resolved in any sector nor that the blockade will continue to be considered legal.

U.N. experts say Israel's blockade of Gaza illegal

PS: the pacifier is an appropriate touch

Edited September 19, 2011 by flying