Pheu Thai voters on efforts to facilitate Thaksin's return

[longtimepassed]

I think the lady in the OP sums up who gets it........

Noranat Nongnapat Thammapeera, self-employed: Why are they so obsessed about the Thaksin issue? Most news reports try to link everything to Thaksin

We could turn that round to pose a very interesting question "Why is Thaksin so obsessed with Thailand, he tries to link everything to his downfall there". There are those who dont want him bought back quietly and forgiven. They havent forgottemn what he did the first time.

Edited September 19, 2011 by longtimepassed

[longtimepassed]

The law is the law; whether we like it or not.

Section 6 of the Criminal Procedure Code, which says a person convicted of a crime who is more than 60 years old and who has received a sentence of no more than three years may appeal for a royal pardon.

Under Section 265 of the code, when a pardon is granted, the punishment must not be imposed.

The previous director-general, Chartchai Suthiklom, had been accused of stalling the appeal process, letting the 3.5 million petition signatures, 35 boxes in all, gather dust in a room. The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) submitted the petition seeking a royal pardon for Thaksin in August, 2009. Any punishment for this blatant obstruction?

Standard procedure by police and the Bangkok elite (and its lackeys) to prevent the law from being applied. I.E. Investigations into the deaths of people in the Wat after the rally had been dispersed, assassination of Seh Dang, the sluggish police reaction after the gambling dens had been publicly exposed, the partial search warrants destined to block access to the gambling venues...

HaHa... what nonsense, it reads that , the person to appeal has to have served at least half of his or her sentence, also has to admit their guilt... and as for the three and a half million signatures, it has been established that over one and a half million of them were fake and made up names... Thaksin will go down in history with the likes of Adolf Hitler and Stalin... and what are you if not a "lackey"

Reasonableness check...

2 million signatures were verified, the remaining 1 1/2 million were not verified. This is not the same thing as "faked". Please try to imagine "faking" 1.5 signatures and you'll see rather quickly that is a very unlikely scenario.

not at all tiansford old chap 1.6 million scribbles can be done very quickly by 2 million people - imagine the scene in the Isan red village "you vill sign your namen und scribble on the next line", another flawed red shirt argument !!! NEXT!!

Edited September 19, 2011 by longtimepassed

[tlansford]

The law is the law; whether we like it or not.

Section 6 of the Criminal Procedure Code, which says a person convicted of a crime who is more than 60 years old and who has received a sentence of no more than three years may appeal for a royal pardon.

Under Section 265 of the code, when a pardon is granted, the punishment must not be imposed.

The previous director-general, Chartchai Suthiklom, had been accused of stalling the appeal process, letting the 3.5 million petition signatures, 35 boxes in all, gather dust in a room. The United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) submitted the petition seeking a royal pardon for Thaksin in August, 2009. Any punishment for this blatant obstruction?

Standard procedure by police and the Bangkok elite (and its lackeys) to prevent the law from being applied. I.E. Investigations into the deaths of people in the Wat after the rally had been dispersed, assassination of Seh Dang, the sluggish police reaction after the gambling dens had been publicly exposed, the partial search warrants destined to block access to the gambling venues...

HaHa... what nonsense, it reads that , the person to appeal has to have served at least half of his or her sentence, also has to admit their guilt... and as for the three and a half million signatures, it has been established that over one and a half million of them were fake and made up names... Thaksin will go down in history with the likes of Adolf Hitler and Stalin... and what are you if not a "lackey"

Reasonableness check...

2 million signatures were verified, the remaining 1 1/2 million were not verified. This is not the same thing as "faked". Please try to imagine "faking" 1.5 signatures and you'll see rather quickly that is a very unlikely scenario.

not at all tiansford old chap 1.6 million scribbles can be done very quickly by 2 million people - imagine the scene in the Isan red village "you vill sign your namen und scribble on the next line", another flawed red shirt argument !!! NEXT!!

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

Edited September 20, 2011 by tlansford

[hammered]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

Ages ago my wife wanted to sign a petition for something. It required ID card and copy of house papers to be verified or copied or the signature would be invalid. I suspect the reason for the 1.5 million here is something similar. If you want to gather millions of signatures you need to have a well trained and organised group taking them. It is highly likely that a lot of village level signatures would have been taken incorrectly or people who didnt have the needed copy/paper still insisting on signing.

[Buchholz]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

B.) With the demand from Red Shirt Leader Thida to re-verify all the petitions, then I'm sure the present government will showcase that, in fact, all the petition signers were legitimate.

Quite why they have been otherwise silent on the discovery that so many entries were invalidated is rather revealing... but we'll find out, in however long it takes to reverify 3.6 million entries, what the ultimate situation was.

.

[Buchholz]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

Ages ago my wife wanted to sign a petition for something. It required ID card and copy of house papers to be verified or copied or the signature would be invalid. I suspect the reason for the 1.5 million here is something similar.

Similar experience on documents required with family members signing a petition and wouldn't be surprised to learn that many of the invalidated signatures were that way because there was no documentation that actually backed up that each individual signature on the petition actually belonged to a individual, legally-entitled, living Thai.

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[hammered]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

Ages ago my wife wanted to sign a petition for something. It required ID card and copy of house papers to be verified or copied or the signature would be invalid. I suspect the reason for the 1.5 million here is something similar.

Similar experience on documents required with family members signing a petition and wouldn't be surprised to learn that many of the invalidated signatures were that way because there was no documentation that actually backed up that each individual signature on the petition actually belonged to a individual, legally-entitled, living Thai.

.

It wouldnt surprise me if there some of those too. I wouldnt expect the that to explain the whole 1.5 million though. This must be the largest petition ever tried in Thailand and there are going to be loads of errors for a multitude of reasons. 2 million verified signatures is a gigantic amount already and achieving that is a staggering organizational feat. Remember that BJT wanted to gather signatures for an amnesty 9non-Thaksin iirc) last year and they stated that if 100K people signed up the Dems should also support the plan. 2 million is a big statement and there are a potentially another million or so that are real but unverified too

[Buchholz]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

Ages ago my wife wanted to sign a petition for something. It required ID card and copy of house papers to be verified or copied or the signature would be invalid. I suspect the reason for the 1.5 million here is something similar.

Similar experience on documents required with family members signing a petition and wouldn't be surprised to learn that many of the invalidated signatures were that way because there was no documentation that actually backed up that each individual signature on the petition actually belonged to a individual, legally-entitled, living Thai.

.

It wouldnt surprise me if there some of those too. I wouldnt expect the that to explain the whole 1.5 million though. This must be the largest petition ever tried in Thailand and there are going to be loads of errors for a multitude of reasons. 2 million verified signatures is a gigantic amount already and achieving that is a staggering organizational feat. Remember that BJT wanted to gather signatures for an amnesty 9non-Thaksin iirc) last year and they stated that if 100K people signed up the Dems should also support the plan. 2 million is a big statement and there are a potentially another million or so that are real but unverified too

It's also potentially not 1 more than the 2 million that were verified. While still a large number, in the context of what was promised at the time just before turn in, it's a mockery. Even if all 3.6 million are all actually verified, it still falls far short of what was said then:

August 4, 2009

The Nation

The red shirts have scheduled August 17 as the date they will present to the Royal Palace their petition seeking a royal pardon for ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra, organisers said yesterday.

"Signers of the petition have exceeded five million. Name checks will likely be completed around August 15 or 16, so the petition date is set for August 17," said organiser Veera Musigapong.

,

Edited September 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[Buchholz]

It was a time the Reds were flying high with highly grandiose and inflated petition pledges... this one was just 3 days after the pardon petition was turned in.

It fizzled out to nothing as I recall...

Red Shirts to collect 10 million names to impeach premier

BANGKOK, Aug 20 (TNA) - A key leader of anti-government United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) said on Thursday that the group will collect ten million signatures to impeach Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajijva, accusing him of malpractice in office.

Key UDD Red Shirt leader Jatuporn Prompan, a member of parliament (MP) from the opposition Puea Thai Party, said the UDD activists will discuss over the group's plan to oust the Democrat-led coalition government and unseat Mr Abhisit from his post, charging that the Oxford graduate has "inappropriate behaviour".

Edited September 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[rubl]

I keep on seeing a reference to 1.6M signatures as being unverified. That suggests they've been ignored on purpose.

Well all 3.6M signatures have been verified. 2.0M accepted, 1.6M containing irregularities of a kind invalidating them.

UDD acting leader Ms. Thida has asked for a re-verification. No problem, will do. Hope you don't mind waiting a bit for the re-verification to complete. Don't call us, we'll call you.

BTW as to suggestions some signatures might be fake, no doubt but probably less than 1% or so. Happens in any petition. If organizers were really bent on cheating, they could have asked all signers to submit TWO signatures

[Buchholz]

I keep on seeing a reference to 1.6M signatures as being unverified. That suggests they've been ignored on purpose.

Well all 3.6M signatures have been verified. 2.0M accepted, 1.6M containing irregularities of a kind invalidating them.

UDD acting leader Ms. Thida has asked for a re-verification. No problem, will do. Hope you don't mind waiting a bit for the re-verification to complete. Don't call us, we'll call you.

BTW as to suggestions some signatures might be fake, no doubt but probably less than 1% or so. Happens in any petition. If organizers were really bent on cheating, they could have asked all signers to submit TWO signatures

Somewhere just in the 13 days between the article on Veera's statement and actual turn-in, the Reds themselves lost more than 1.4 million signatures before the verification even began.

From "exceeded five million" to 3.6 million at turn-in.

Maybe Red Shirt Leader Thida could ask Red Shirt Leader Veera to include the missing signatures for her new re-verification.

.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Buchholz

[longtimepassed]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

One thing Ive noticed reading your posts tiansford - In the words of Nai Bevin - "you dont listen very well do you"?

Point A - well done you can deal with big numbers now - good chap!!

Point B - thats less than one each EASILY done - and the people verifying signatures DID notice thats why they said 1.6 million had irregularities did you not know that or do your red tinted glasses get in the way of everything in your daily life? Try and remember you camps mantra and chant it daily - "truth today".

Edited September 20, 2011 by longtimepassed

[TAWP]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

Ages ago my wife wanted to sign a petition for something. It required ID card and copy of house papers to be verified or copied or the signature would be invalid. I suspect the reason for the 1.5 million here is something similar. If you want to gather millions of signatures you need to have a well trained and organised group taking them. It is highly likely that a lot of village level signatures would have been taken incorrectly or people who didnt have the needed copy/paper still insisting on signing.

And a group of village heads signing up every member citizen of a Red Village might not get every number right, hence the high number of 'non-verifiable' signatures.

But it looked good when they were shipped in in those boxes...

[Buchholz]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

Ages ago my wife wanted to sign a petition for something. It required ID card and copy of house papers to be verified or copied or the signature would be invalid. I suspect the reason for the 1.5 million here is something similar. If you want to gather millions of signatures you need to have a well trained and organised group taking them. It is highly likely that a lot of village level signatures would have been taken incorrectly or people who didnt have the needed copy/paper still insisting on signing.

And a group of village heads signing up every member citizen of a Red Village might not get every number right, hence the high number of 'non-verifiable' signatures.

But it looked good when they were shipped in in those boxes...

Now, if only, just one of those signatures in the box was from Thaksin or his offspring.

But then, the Reds have never been known to be ones that follow the law.

.

[Ricardo]

And a group of village heads signing up every member citizen of a Red Village might not get every number right, hence the high number of 'non-verifiable' signatures.

But it looked good when they were shipped in in those boxes...

OMG, 1.6 million Red-Shirts may be missing, this is another story for RA !

[tlansford]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

One thing Ive noticed reading your posts tiansford - In the words of Nai Bevin - "you dont listen very well do you"?

Point A - well done you can deal with big numbers now - good chap!!

Point B - thats less than one each EASILY done - and the people verifying signatures DID notice thats why they said 1.6 million had irregularities did you not know that or do your red tinted glasses get in the way of everything in your daily life? Try and remember you camps mantra and chant it daily - "truth today".

whatever

[tlansford]

A.) 1.5 million is a huge number.

B.) If there had been deliberate fraud for nearly half of the signatures, do you not think that would have been noticed by the people verifying the signatures? And if it had been noticed, as the petition was big news 2 years ago and strongly opposed by the party in charge at the time, don't you think that the gov't would have exposed the fraud to discredit the petition?

But you (and others here) feel that 1.5 million signatures were "faked and made up" as Bakseedaa so concisely put it.

If you want to believe in a very unlikely scenario, that is your choice.

Ages ago my wife wanted to sign a petition for something. It required ID card and copy of house papers to be verified or copied or the signature would be invalid. I suspect the reason for the 1.5 million here is something similar. If you want to gather millions of signatures you need to have a well trained and organised group taking them. It is highly likely that a lot of village level signatures would have been taken incorrectly or people who didnt have the needed copy/paper still insisting on signing.

And a group of village heads signing up every member citizen of a Red Village might not get every number right, hence the high number of 'non-verifiable' signatures.

But it looked good when they were shipped in in those boxes...

Now, if only, just one of those signatures in the box was from Thaksin or his offspring.

But then, the Reds have never been known to be ones that follow the law.

.

the intent of the petition was for "the Thai people" to petition the king.

[Buchholz]

Ages ago my wife wanted to sign a petition for something. It required ID card and copy of house papers to be verified or copied or the signature would be invalid. I suspect the reason for the 1.5 million here is something similar. If you want to gather millions of signatures you need to have a well trained and organised group taking them. It is highly likely that a lot of village level signatures would have been taken incorrectly or people who didnt have the needed copy/paper still insisting on signing.

And a group of village heads signing up every member citizen of a Red Village might not get every number right, hence the high number of 'non-verifiable' signatures.

But it looked good when they were shipped in in those boxes...

Now, if only, just one of those signatures in the box was from Thaksin or his offspring.

But then, the Reds have never been known to be ones that follow the law.

the intent of the petition was for "the Thai people" to petition the king.

Unfortunately for them, the content was requesting a Royal Pardon, for which pre-existing laws do not allow for it to be legally requested for by a mob.

.

[rubl]

the intent of the petition was for "the Thai people" to petition the king.

I really appreciate you emphasizing 'the Thai people'. If the UDD / red-shirts involved in the petition intended to represent 'the Thai people' we wouldn't have had a petition. IMHO

[tlansford]

- snip -

And a group of village heads signing up every member citizen of a Red Village might not get every number right, hence the high number of 'non-verifiable' signatures.

But it looked good when they were shipped in in those boxes...

Now, if only, just one of those signatures in the box was from Thaksin or his offspring.

But then, the Reds have never been known to be ones that follow the law.

the intent of the petition was for "the Thai people" to petition the king.

Unfortunately for them, the content was requesting a Royal Pardon, for which pre-existing laws do not allow for it to be legally requested for by a mob.

.

"mob" ? 2 million signatures is not a mob, is it? You're not exaggerating ?

Again, the intent of this action at the time (my understanding) was based on hundreds of years of Thai tradition and the special relationship between the Thai people and the King allowing the people to address a grievance directly to the King. Obviously a modern adaptation of this tradition. (btw, I neither defend nor object to the petition... ) If indeed, this was the intent of the petition, then logically they would not have the need to include a family signature.

You tend to be very well informed, so if you feel that the petition was not submitted under this pretense, then I'd like to hear more.

But aaallll of this is just speculation on our parts, and irrelevant at this point, as the petition exists and the next steps will be taken... let's see what happens.

[geriatrickid]

The people have spoken.

If the sentiments of the people are distressing, I suggest you consider the option of fleeing. As I respect the people of Thailand, I shall carry on. I predict that this Christmas season will be the busiest in the past 5 years and the foreigners return to Thailand. With some luck, perhaps the much beloved Mr. Thaksin will be home for Christmas too.

[rubl]

The people have spoken.

If the sentiments of the people are distressing, I suggest you consider the option of fleeing. As I respect the people of Thailand, I shall carry on. I predict that this Christmas season will be the busiest in the past 5 years and the foreigners return to Thailand. With some luck, perhaps the much beloved Mr. Thaksin will be home for Christmas too.

'the people' have spoken?

I see a continuing economical problem in the USA and Europe which will put a real stress on tourist targets. If 'with some luck' k. Thaksin is home for Christmas I predict a disastrous low number of tourists. Just like you have yours, this is my opinion, dear Gkid.

[tlansford]

The people have spoken.

If the sentiments of the people are distressing, I suggest you consider the option of fleeing. As I respect the people of Thailand, I shall carry on. I predict that this Christmas season will be the busiest in the past 5 years and the foreigners return to Thailand. With some luck, perhaps the much beloved Mr. Thaksin will be home for Christmas too.

re : Christmas holiday season, I hope you are right ! It's been a quiet season on Koh Tao...

[Buchholz]

Now, if only, just one of those signatures in the box was from Thaksin or his offspring.

But then, the Reds have never been known to be ones that follow the law.

the intent of the petition was for "the Thai people" to petition the king.

Unfortunately for them, the content was requesting a Royal Pardon, for which pre-existing laws do not allow for it to be legally requested for by a mob.

Again, the intent of this action at the time (my understanding) was based on

You tend to be very well informed, so if you feel that the petition was not submitted under this pretense, then I'd like to hear more.

But aaallll of this is just speculation on our parts, and irrelevant at this point, as the petition exists and the next steps will be taken... let's see what happens.

Yes, we await the re-verification that Red Shirt Leader Thida has requested on 3.6 million or the "exceeded 5 million" signatures (whichever number it is), which should be completed whenever.

The intent of the action was to request a Royal Pardon.

They did this in the form of a petition.

A petition is not the proper form to request a Royal Pardon.

As for learning more, I'd suggest the original mega-thread on this topic as well as a read of the petition itself.