Israel's Netanyahu says Palestinian statehood bid at UN will fail

[Jingthing]

My support is about Israel's right to EXIST and keep it's Jewish identity.

The Palestinian Authority and (to the best of my knowledge) everyone posting on this thread has long recognized Israel's right to exist. But you're being disingenuous with the "Jewish identity" bit. Netanyahu is demanding what no previous Israeli govt. has put forward: that Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state. If Netanyahu was truly interested in peace he would drop this toxic rhetoric from the negotiations. But he's not, and that's why Israel finds itself so isolated from the nations of the world.

No, it's you being disingenuous. Its about the Palestinians DROPPING the right of return demand. They have never done that. They must do that if they hope for peace. Otherwise, you can have all the UN shows you want, there never will be two states living in peace.

Has Israel lost the international PR war? Yes, big time, and I largely blame the Netanyahu government. But this need for the Palestinians to drop the right of return demand is much bigger and much more persistent than one Israeli administration.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[dave111223]

Honestly, I think Americans would tend to know more where Gaza is than the difference between Thailand and Taiwan. Israel is in the US news most everyday.

Again i'm kind of confounded a bit...why would Israel be in the news everyday in the US when only 2% of the population are Jewish?

Not really going anywhere with this, but it's just a strange thing to think about, that Americans would be so much more familiar with Israel than Taiwan and Thailand?

Edited September 20, 2011 by dave111223

[Jingthing]

Honestly, I think Americans would tend to know more where Gaza is than the difference between Thailand and Taiwan. Israel is in the US news most everyday.

Again i'm kind of confounded a bit...why would Israel be in the news everyday in the US when only 2% of the population are Jewish?

Not really going anywhere with this, but it's just a strange thing to think about, that Americans would be so much more familiar with Israel that Taiwan and Thailand?

I don't really believe you are confounded so I won't dignify this one with a reply. (Jerking my chain comes to mind.) Cheers. Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

Again i'm kind of confounded a bit...why would Israel be in the news everyday in the US when only 2% of the population are Jewish?

Israel is one of Americas main allies, but haven't we been warned about baiting?

[dave111223]

I don't really believe you are confounded so I won't dignify this one with a reply. (Jerking my chain comes to mind.) Cheers.

Not really jerking your chain, it's just kind of a strange fact to consider. And you seem to have an answer for everything, so I was just wondering what you thought of that anomaly?

[Jingthing]

I don't really believe you are confounded so I won't dignify this one with a reply. (Jerking my chain comes to mind.) Cheers.

Not really jerking your chain, it's just kind of a strange fact to consider. And you seem to have an answer for everything, so I was just wondering what you thought of that anomaly?

Maybe you lost your copy of the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Leave it alone. Don't act dumber than you really are, it's not flattering. Don't ask me again, not playing in your sandbox on this one, snookums.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[dave111223]

Again i'm kind of confounded a bit...why would Israel be in the news everyday in the US when only 2% of the population are Jewish?

Israel is one of Americas main allies

It just brings me back the point about the Fareed Zakaria show, which although Jingthing pointed out i did not watch the entire thing, the part that i watched had a decidedly biased position.

Maybe there is a general media bias towards the issue in the US?

Italy, Ireland, England; all major US allies and a lot of Americans that trace back to coming from these countries yet i would not expect to see them on the news in the US "almost every day" (or maybe there are? It's been 5 years since i was in the US?) But it just seems like a disproportionate about of media coverage and if it's anything like what i saw on GPS i can assume it has a bias?

I just feel like if they saw all the same scenes that i saw, how did 63% like it?

Also what's with all the threats and condescension around here? I think these are valid things to consider?

Edited September 20, 2011 by dave111223

[Ulysses G.]

It just brings me back the point about the Fareed Zakaria show, which although Jingthing pointed out i did not watch the entire thing, the part that i watched had a decidedly biased position.

So your biased position is that it had a biased position?

[dave111223]

It just brings me back the point about the Fareed Zakaria show, which although Jingthing pointed out i did not watch the entire thing, the part that i watched had a decidedly biased position.

So your biased position is that it had a biased position?

I suppose it depends on your definition of bias.

Personally I see a bias as when you go into a situation with predetermined mindset because of your past experiences, upbringing, nationality, religion, race etc..

Whereas I formed an opinion based on events that i saw and had no pre-existing mindset before seeing them. I had already formed this opinion before watching the GPS show, which you could therefore say i was already biased by that time. And the show did not conform to my opinion. However I feel that the people talking on the show were all talking from a position of bias similar to first kind.

And i would not consider these forms of "bias" to be of the same ilk.

Edited September 20, 2011 by dave111223

[Ulysses G.]

Everyone who does not agree with your opinions is "biased". I get it.

[dave111223]

Everyone who does not agree with your opinions is "biased". I get it.

For example on the show they would continue to use language which would be far too extreme or insulting for an objective observer to use.

Saying "this is just plain dumb and boneheaded", "stupid" that kind of thing and the way they said it was fairly obvious that they were emotionally vested in the situation.

I mean i can understand someone saying something like "it's a poor decision" or "it will not have a positive result", but what objective person would use specifically insulting language about one of the parties? Especially in a case like this is not so clear cut.

Edited September 20, 2011 by dave111223

[Jingthing]

Folks, decide for yourselves.

It was an EXCELLENT show indeed.

The consensus which I think is shared by informed people all over the world (of any "bias") is that the current Abbas bid in the UN will most certainly NOT result in Palestinian statehood.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/18/fzgps.01.html

Start at this string --

ZAKARIA: It's been a tarred few days in the Middle East. An Egyptian mob burned Israel's Embassy in Cairo. Israel's ambassadors to both Egypt and Turkey have been forced out and the Arab World is coalescing around proposals to vote for Palestinian Statehood in New York this coming week.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

Everyone who does not agree with your opinions is "biased". I get it.

For example on the show they would continue to use language which would be far too extreme or insulting for an objective observer to use.

Saying "this is just plain dumb and boneheaded", "stupid" that kind of thing and the way they said it was fairly obvious that they were emotionally vested in the situation.

I mean i can understand someone saying something like "it's a poor decision" or "it will not have a positive result", but what objective person would use specifically insulting language about one of the parties? Especially in a case like this is not so clear cut.

Perhaps 'poor decision' repeated for decades would be considered boneheaded, just a thought.

[dave111223]

Anyway I think we all want to see the same thing in the end, that is peace for both Israel and Palestine; and just differ in our opinions of the best course of action to achieve it.

[up-country_sinclair]

I do not see any members referring to anyone posting here as anti-Semitic.

I didn't notice that either.

Maybe you should pay closer attention--to your own posts.

Maybe you lost your copy of the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

This is exactly what I was referring to on the previous page. This thread (and others on related topics) are littered with veiled implications that some posters are anti-Semites. Disagreeing with the policies of the current Israeli regime does not make one an anti-Semite. And to be quite frank, it's offensive that one is forced into a position to make such a statement.

[geriatrickid]

I'm not interested in your resume, dude, I was talking about your post, which was not the post of an objective person. You have the right to your opinion, but to claim you aren't promoting the Palestinian side doesn't wash.

I said that i had no affiliation with either side, but now due to events that i have seen unfold within recent years that I have formed an opinion which is sympathetic to the Palestinians; I still don't understand how i am "not an objective person" I have absolutely zero pre-existing biases or views that would make me nonobjective on the issue.

I believe that still makes me a "neutral" person (as i have no background affiliation)...however a neutral person who has formed an opinion.

If one looks at events and forms an opinion which is not on the Israeli side does that automatically qualify someone as "not objective"?

I'm sure that if i were to go back through a history lesson you'd show me all the injustices etc...I'm sure there were, but as I said my opinion is based on the last few years of events, as seen on CNN and BBC, as prior to that i really had no knowledge of the issues at all as so cannot draw any opinions for past events which go beyond my scope.

And honestly i feel that if you look too much at what happened 50 years ago, what happened 100 years ago, what happened 1000 years ago those events will always cloud your view of the current climate. I wasn't even alive when most of the stuff you are talking about happened.

Ok. Instead of a rehash of alleged abuses, please provide an example of how the PLA for the past few decades has invested in the development and advancement of the Palestinian arabs. How can these people organize and build a state no if for the past two generations there was an inability to build anything let alone lay the foundation for a state. They cannot even get a consistent policy or consensus together on statehood and what it means. The failure to achieve statehood now, is in the best interests of the Palestinian arbas because all they will create is a failed state. The baby will be still born. Show me what the arabs achieved with all the billions they received in aid. Fully equipped greenhouses and functioning agricultural facilities were turned over to the arabs when the israelis left Gaza. What became of those assets? Money was poured intto funding schools and hospitals. Why then are the seriously ill still sent to Israel (and not to Egypt or Jordan). Where are the community colleges? Where is the collective of thinkers, of scientists of creators. All that the arabs have focused on has been negativity and destruction. Show me something positive and longlasting that will outlive a generation or two. In Israel's difficult startup years the money went to helping others, of sacrificing for the good of all, why has this never been seen in the Palestinian arab territories. I call this the asian immigrant recipe for success. Look at most asian immigrants to the west. The parents and elders pour everything into the children especially in respect to education and cultural activities. Other cultures do the same. And yet, one does not see that in the Palestinian territories. I don't think sending a child off to go kaboom quite qualifies as a sacrifice to the improvement of society.

[Ulysses G.]

There have been numerous anti-Semitic posts in this forum since it started as well links to WW2 anti-Semitic propaganda and silly conspiracy theories about Jews. In fact, there have been some of these type of posts deleted in just the last few days.

It is pretty obvious that some posters are anti-Semitic, but, thankfully, the mods have been pretty good about silencing the more blatant ones.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[up-country_sinclair]

It is pretty obvious that some posters are anti-Semitic, but, thankfully, the mods have been pretty good about silencing the more blatant ones.

Again, more veiled implications. Who, exactly, are you referring to (blatant or otherwise)?

By the way, resorting to this level of smear only proves that you've lost the debate.

EDIT to provide further support. This is a perfect example of what I'm referring to.

I do not see any members referring to anyone posting here as anti-Semitic.

It is pretty obvious that some posters are anti-Semitic

Edited September 20, 2011 by up-country_sinclair

[Ulysses G.]

I do not understand your point - there are no veiled implications. I have not specified anyone in particular and I am not attempting to. I have merely stated that there have been a number of anti-Semitic posts on this forum and that is a fact.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Anyway I think we all want to see the same thing in the end, that is peace for both Israel and Palestine; and just differ in our opinions of the best course of action to achieve it.

That's really off. All? When the majority of Palestinians want the Jews to leave Israel in one way or another (including genocide if need be) and won't ever abandon their demand for right of return, and also when the extreme right winger Israelis (I feel NOT the majority) believe Palestinians don't ever deserve their own state, no, I think it's totally cracked to say ALL.

This brings up the issue of the two state solution. It is a myth that everyone believes in that or thinks it is even possible at this stage. Maybe it isn't even possible anymore; I guess history may tell. There are people who I think have good will who promote the idea of a SINGLE Palestine, multicultural state, which of course would be a large majority Arab. They think Jews and Arabs can live in peace in such a state. Personally, I don't see it and find the idea hopelessly naive and idealistic. But if it ever happened and it worked, I can think of worse outcomes to this mess.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Disagreeing with the policies of the current Israeli regime does not make one an anti-Semite.

Agreed. But it doesn't NOT make you one either. It's a case by case. Hint -- suggesting Jewish control of the media (outside Israel) is traditional code for antisemitism. It's all in the Protocols ...

Next ...

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

Up Country

Sadly anything you say is falling on deaf ears, it really is pointless mate. What we are seeing on these threads at the moment is a minute snapshot of what is played out on a daily basis from Israel to Palestine. I agree with you in that you need no loyalty to one side or the other to see that Palestinian people are kept in nothing more than an open prison.

Geriatrickid

You said how can the Palestinians organize and build a state now, if for the past two generations there was an inability to build anything let alone lay the foundation for a state. Well please answer me how they actually are supposed to build anything? They are not permitted to have cement! Its not allowed by Israel. Try building or repairing houses and infrastructure destroyed by tanks and hellfire missiles without cement. How about their resources? Thousands of acres of 100-200 year old Olive Groves, the only income for many families, and the Israeli's just come along and cut all the trees down. Its out of spite, nothing else.They cannot even fish their own waters. How can you build a state when Israel dismantled and destroyed the Police Force and the excuse for a Military, and does not even permit a police force anymore. And then, the very people whose grandparents were ousted from the ghetto's of Warsaw and subject to the Holocaust, many of whom's forebears were locked away behind the Iron Curtain for ever, come along and build a 15 meter high wall through 400 miles of countryside, cutting villages literally in two. If all that happened where you live Geriatrickid, I reckon you would be mighty pissed. Would you be fighting? dam_n sure you would. Would you be hurling rocks and stones and rockets and suicide bombers? If that's what it took you would. A suicide bomber and a hellfire missile deliver about the same explosive charge. The only difference being the means of delivery. One way is via a 25 million dollar war machine from the finest US inventory, the other way is the only way they have left. They are both abhorrent, they are both immoral, and they both kill innocent people indiscriminately (I am an ex military pilot with war experience by the way)..

The only way forward to quote John Lennon, is give peace a chance. Let the people free and let them build their homes, stop stealing what is left of their land, then let the world judge them and hold them responsible for their actions. What you cannot sanction is the current oppression that is so clear to anyone with an unbiased open eye. I am convinced 100% of all those poor Men women and children, led to their massacre by the Nazi's would say of this situation now if they had a voice, 'you cannot do this to these people, it is inhumane, do not de-humanise them'. They were similarly sealed off in the ghettos until the point of starvation. By the way before any of you jump on the outrage soap box, that's not anti semitic, it's history.

For Up-Country

Having said what I said to you at the beginning, I don't know why I have just written all that from the heart, because it will fall on the same deaf ears don't you think? Still we try fella, but lets not hold our breath.

Now how long before the man who always jumps on the outrage bus come in? 10 minutes and counting.

I don't know if there really is a God, but if there really is, I feel pretty sure he is the calibre of individual that will shit all over anyone that had the arrogance to kill another in his name.

Edited September 20, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[Jingthing]

What you cannot sanction is the current oppression that is so clear to anyone with an unbiased open eye. I am convinced 100% of all those poor Men women and children, led to their massacre by the Nazi's would say of this situation now if they had a voice, 'you cannot do this to these people, it is inhumane, do not de-humanise them'. They were similarly sealed off in the ghettos until the point of starvation. By the way before any of you jump on the outrage soap box, that's not anti semitic, it's history.

The Palestinians aren't starving. Their leaders will tell you that themselves. In fact, the west bank economy is booming. Trying to paint a picture of the situation for Palestinians being equivalent to millions of Jews being forced into gas chambers by Nazis is by definition antisemitic. Stop it. Also, don't you dare presume to speak for those victims of mass genocide. Such as a biased person as you acting like you "know" 100 percent exactly what they would say, do you realize how crazy that assertion is? They lost everything already and to use them as tools for your antisemitic rant is beyond the pale.

Don't get me wrong. The Palestinians have very serious and valid grievances. Their frustration about their situation is totally understandable. Is there a big problem in the region? You betcha.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

What you cannot sanction is the current oppression that is so clear to anyone with an unbiased open eye. I am convinced 100% of all those poor Men women and children, led to their massacre by the Nazi's would say of this situation now if they had a voice, 'you cannot do this to these people, it is inhumane, do not de-humanise them'. They were similarly sealed off in the ghettos until the point of starvation. By the way before any of you jump on the outrage soap box, that's not anti semitic, it's history.

The Palestinians aren't starving. Their leaders will tell you that themselves. In fact, the west bank economy is booming. Trying to paint a picture of the situation for Palestinians being equivalent to millions of Jews being forced into gas chambers by Nazis is by definition antisemitic. Stop it. Also, don't you dare presume to speak for those victims of mass genocide. They lost everything already and to use them as tools for your antisemitic rant is beyond the pale.

Jingthing

The outrage bus came early.

Shooting from the hip again, labeling me anti-semitic, i call that a personal attack. Your inability to rationalize and comprehend the written word, either literally or in metaphor, is superceded only by your inability to ever see two sides of any story that has ever been published on this forum.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing

The outrage bus came early.

Shooting from the hip again, labeling me anti-semitic, i call that a personal attack. Your inability to rationalize and comprehend the written word, either literally or in metaphor, is superceded only by your inability to ever see two sides of any story that has ever been published on this forum.

Nice try. I didn't call you anything. I called your RANT something. I don't know YOU. I know what you posted and the content is objectively antisemitic based on guidelines published by the European Union. I stand by the charge and I am confident I am correct.

Either modern Israeli policies are equivalent to Nazi Germany or not. You clearly asserted they are. I know they aren't.

People complain posts are labeled antisemitic. What do you EXPECT when you post blatantly that way? Why shouldn't you be called out?

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

Jingthing

Further to my last you seem to be an awfully confused person when it comes to the 'definition of anti semitism.

Just for you the definition is :

One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

Now please show where I fit into that description, or have the decency and balls to shut up and apologise.

Next.......

What guidelines are they Jingthing.? As you always shout ...LINK! Evidence! REFERENCE!

Edited September 20, 2011 by GentlemanJim

[Jingthing]

I have already posted the EU link several times in my posting history. I am not your search service. I wasn't referring to a dictionary definition. I was talking about a much more detailed guideline to determine antisemitic content in the context of modern politics. If you don't want to post antisemitic content in future, desist in asserting that the policies of modern Israel are equivalent to the actions of Nazi Germany. Can you do that?

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

Up Country

Point proved I think!

On planet Jingthing the West Bank is booming. (Is that the West Bank of the River Thames you meant Jingthing?)

[Jingthing]

On planet Jingthing the West Bank is booming.

I just checked into that. I may have been wrong. But they ain't starving and it's not a concentration camp either.

Edited September 20, 2011 by Jingthing

[GentlemanJim]

I have already posted the EU link several times in my posting history. I am not your search service. I wasn't referring to a dictionary definition. I was talking about a much more detailed guideline to determine antisemitic content in the context of modern politics.

Well I am not going back through 28000 posts now am I. You are so full of BS it is unbelievable. But you think everyone else you deem appropriate is your search service. Thats ok is it? Well before labeling me anything (because you never mentioned the word RANT), best you stick to a dictionary definition rather than some made up content of some made up guideline that you cannot be bothered to post. It still stands! Personal attack!!

Next.......

(That is so irritating isn't it !)