UN receives Palestine's bid to become Member State

[Wallaby]

Horse manure.

63% of Americans support Israel over the Palestinian Arabs and only something like 2% of Americans are Jews.

gallup.com/poll

Have a real vote not a poll & see.....Then you can make claims.

So far you can only claim x% of those who took or knew about the poll say xx

Till then the poll is closer to manure than reality

If you look at the poll mentioned they only asked just over 1000 people. How many people in the US? Hardly a comprehensive poll.

But then again, you have to expect it from people who are desperate to find any sort of justification for their warped minority view.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Wallaby

[Jingthing]

The history of the document at this link. The wording was changed. That is the only point I am making. Jewish State was lined through.

http://the-truth-voice.blogspot.com/2010/05/harry-trumans-recognition-of-state-of.html

Nice try at backtracking. What you presented does not prove Truman "rejected" recognizing the Jewish state of Israel as you asserted before. He edited a document. The phrase Jewish state remained in the document. Case close.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

It is not hateful bashing when it is the truth.

That sounds like it is your opinion. It is not too late to attend a logic class (and world history might come in handy as well).

No not my opinion, it is the view of the majority of the world. The majority of nations in the UN want a Palestinian State.

Jump up and down and spit the dummy out all you want, your view is a minority, live with it.

I think it is very true that the majority of the world wants a two state solution. The majority of Americans want that. It is certainly common to both support Israel AND support a two state solution. Frankly, I am not sure either way if the majority of Israelis want that, too many are too happy with the status quo, but the majority of global Jews who tend to more liberal than Israelis do want that.

I also think it is clear the majority of Palestinians do NOT want a two state solution. They refuse to abandon the demand for Palestinian right of return into Jewish Israel while at the same time propose a new Arab state called Palestine which is racist, Jew-free. They elect the Hamas regime in Gaza openly dedicated to destroying Jewish Israel and also endorsing genocidal rhetoric. What do you imagine Jews think of their Jewish state being turned into a majority Arab state? Do the math. That would be the end of Israel. The UN ploy is a show. Both sides need to enter GOOD FAITH NEGOTIATIONS and both sides need to give up key demands (Palestinians need to give up right of return, Jews need to give up settlements) for their to be any hope of real peace and a real two state solution.

Support or opposition for this current Abbas led UN recognition bid is not the same thing as support or opposition for a two state solution.

Do you seriously imagine President Obama, recently affectionately called America's First Jewish president by New York Magazine, is AGAINST a real two state solution?

Edited September 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

If you look at the poll mentioned they only asked just over 1000 people. How many people in the US? Hardly a comprehensive poll.

Are you really serious? I think you better do a little research on how polls work.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Steely Dan]

[You like history,

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”

David Ben-Gurion

This is a fake quote and the second time today that you have posted false imformation. I have little doubt that the other quote is false too.

Media Monitors (http://www.mediamonitors.net)

An article archived on the Media Monitors Web site is filled with questionable assertions and bogus quotes (some of which were debunked in Part I.) The following quote (which also appears on the MIFTAH Web site) was attributed to Israeli Northern District Commissioner Israel Koenig, supposedly from his controversial report on Israeli Arabs in Galilee:

We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=775

Summary: Fabricated quote, false source

Kind of appropriate when arguing the case of a fake national identity seeking to usurp the one secular democracy in the region with a racist theocracy to match most of the OIC coming to think of it. There's democracy for you, a majority as Wallaby might say.

[Scott]

Several posts deleted. If you are going to use a quote then credit the quote and provide a link.

I suggest a re-read of the OP. The post is certainly not about the United States and certainly not about polls.

Please stay on-topic.

[Jingthing]

Amid these dark days for Israel and historically increasing isolation, it's heartening to hear a country as historically important to both Muslims and Jews, which historically hosted a golden age of Islam and pushed out all her Jews on boats or worse, now has officially recognized Israel as the homeland of the Jewish PEOPLE. Fantastic. There is still hope.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/spain-recognizes-israel-as-jewish-homeland-for-first-time-1.386587

Spain’s Foreign Minister Trinidad Jimenez presented a new policy for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on Saturday, declaring Israel as the homeland of the Jews for the first time and saying that the issue of Palestinian refugees should be solved in such a way that it does not compromise Israel’s current demographic makeup of a Jewish majority.

Jimenez’s speech before the United Nations General Assembly is particularly dramatic in light of the fact that Spain is considered the leading EU country to support Palestinian rights. Adopting such a pro-Israel stance may lead to other countries to follow suit.

People biased solely towards the Palestinians, you simply cannot avoid the issue of the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state (as in Jewish PEOPLE, not religion) or the never dropped demand of Palestinians for their right of return to the state of Israel.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Steely Dan]

Amid these dark days for Israel and historically increasing isolation, it's heartening to hear a country as historically important to both Muslims and Jews, which historically hosted a golden age of Islam and pushed out all her Jews on boats or worse, now has officially recognized Israel as the homeland of the Jewish PEOPLE. Fantastic. There is still hope.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/spain-recognizes-israel-as-jewish-homeland-for-first-time-1.386587

Spain’s Foreign Minister Trinidad Jimenez presented a new policy for the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on Saturday, declaring Israel as the homeland of the Jews for the first time and saying that the issue of Palestinian refugees should be solved in such a way that it does not compromise Israel’s current demographic makeup of a Jewish majority.

Jimenez’s speech before the United Nations General Assembly is particularly dramatic in light of the fact that Spain is considered the leading EU country to support Palestinian rights. Adopting such a pro-Israel stance may lead to other countries to follow suit.

People biased solely towards the Palestinians, you simply cannot avoid the issue of the recognition of Israel as a Jewish state (as in Jewish PEOPLE, not religion) or the never dropped demand of Palestinians for their right of return to the state of Israel.

Interesting. Spain of late like Italy has been benefiting considerably from North African cultural enrichment leading to rampant crime and attacks on unaccompanied women out at night. Perhaps the Spaniards are belatedly realizing some of the issues Israel has to deal with.

[chuckd]

Everybody knows Israel is a Jewish state, first and foremost. That's what it was designed to be and that's what the UN made it to be.

Those that claim otherwise are delusional, despite all the protestations being made that they are against the Israeli government and not the Jews.

...and that, Sirs and Madams, is my honest opinion.

Before all the attacks come, please remember I lived five years in Iran and over 30 years in Saudi Arabia. I earned my opinion and did not arrive at it by reading a newspaper or watching some news media.

Edited September 25, 2011 by chuckd

[Jingthing]

Everybody knows Israel is a Jewish state, first and foremost. That's what it was designed to be and that's what the UN made it to be.

Those that claim otherwise are delusional, despite all the protestations being made that they are against the Israeli government and not the Jews.

...and that, Sirs and Madams, is my honest opinion.

Before all the attacks come, please remember I lived five years in Iran and over 30 years in Saudi Arabia. I earned my opinion and did not arrive at it by reading a newspaper or watching some news media.

Good points. Keep in mind that over 90 percent of global Jews support the continued existence of Israel as a homeland for the Jewish people. If you know Jews, you know that normally you can't get one percent of them to agree who makes the best bagel, so that statistic tells a lot. That means you can't have serious talks with Israel if you hold onto the demand for Palestinian right of return into Jewish Israel.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Scott]

If I recall correctly, this thread is about Palestine's bid to become a member....

[up-country_sinclair]

Several posts deleted. If you are going to use a quote then credit the quote and provide a link.

My post is gone so I assume that's directed at me. Sorry, I thought someone posted a link to the transcript of the speech already.

Let me try again.

Abbas made many great points during his historic speech on Friday, but what was particularly momentous is that someone finally articulated at the UN what Israeli policy in East Jerusalem amounts to: ethnic cleansing.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4126571,00.html

[Jingthing]

Abbas made many great points during his historic speech on Friday, but what was particularly momentous is that someone finally articulated at the UN what Israeli policy in East Jerusalem amounts to: ethnic cleansing.

The Abbas speech was extremely inflammatory overall and stereotypically tailored to the general UN anti-American, anti-colonialist, pro third world point of view. He was playing to that crowd. He wowed them. So what?!? Anyway, I am assuming people of good will want there to be a Palestinian state with their capital in East Jerusalem living side by side with the Jewish state of Israel, yes? Yet this Abbas continues to maintain the Palestinians can never recognize Israel as a Jewish state and continues to demand Palestinian right of return into Israel which means he is pushing for a majority Arab Israel (and then just guess what the next step would be). Do you see the disconnect there? I would also like to see a real peace loving Palestinian leader welcome some Jews to live in their new state. I think that is the only fair thing to do, considering Israel includes 20 percent Arabs.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

Here is what Abbas' partner had to say on the matter. Why should a government that includes a terrorist organization be given anything anyway?

Meanwhile, Hamas said Friday that Palestinians should liberate their land, not beg for recognition at the United Nations, firmly rejecting President Abbas' quest for statehood. Speaking hours before Abbas was due to ask formally that the UN recognize a Palestinian state, senior Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh said this would not bring independence.

"Our Palestinian people do not beg for a state. ...States are not built upon UN resolutions. States liberate their land and establish their entities," Haniyeh said

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4126571,00.html

[Scott]

Off-topic post deleted.

[Jingthing]

I think everyone knowledgeable about the history of Israel knows that some of the early activists there could indeed be labeled terrorists (against both the British colonialists and Arabs). Now Israel is an established nation state and it also true that Hamas can reasonably also be labeled terrorists ... today. That's where we are at now. So now what? Two states living in peace or endless war? Lots of established countries started messy. Do we just say they shouldn't exist anymore because of historical sins? What would you propose the millions of Jewish citizens of Israel do now in recognition of some of the sins done to create their state? Launch boats? Take a suicide pill?

Yes it is true that some early Israeli terrorists are now national Israeli heroes. Same on the other side with Arafat, etc. Mao is still a hero in China. Again, so now what?

Edited September 25, 2011 by Scott
portion edited out/Scott

[koheesti]

^

Of course you know that's what I meant. But in what proponents of current Israeli policy must see as truly discouraging times, I can understand how one would need to claim even the most minor of to 'victories'.

The Israeli people need to rise up and demand elected leaders who can find a new way forward. The current govt. is beholden to the most radical hard liners, and have put a barricade in front of any path towards peace.

The Israel problem will never be solved with extremists like Netanyahu dictating policy.

It wouldn't hurt the situation if the Palestinians also rose up and demanded their leadership find a new way forward. The current government is beholden to their outside leaders, Iran and Syria.

Sadly, any Palestinian who tried would be murdered by his own.

[koheesti]

Reality check - if Palestine becomes an independent state with 1967 borders giving Israel an indefensible 9-mile wide strip the Palestinians will surely attack, the Israelis will certainly retaliate, destroy the Palestinian military and take back every cm2 they had given up plus much, much more but only after thousands and thousands of Palestinians (+ Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians and whoever else joins in) and it will be a generation or two before relations become as good as they are today. So the anti-semites should be careful what they wish for.

[koheesti]

If you look at the poll mentioned they only asked just over 1000 people. How many people in the US? Hardly a comprehensive poll.

You don't know how polling works, do you?

[Jingthing]

Reality check - if Palestine becomes an independent state with 1967 borders giving Israel an indefensible 9-mile wide strip the Palestinians will surely attack, the Israelis will certainly retaliate, destroy the Palestinian military and take back every cm2 they had given up plus much, much more but only after thousands and thousands of Palestinians (+ Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians and whoever else joins in) and it will be a generation or two before relations become as good as they are today. So the anti-semites should be careful what they wish for.

Pretty much so based on the current Palestinian positions, Abbas and Hamas more so. So don't be surprised that Israel doesn't wish to suffer a painful attack like that in the first place. That's why credible security measures are also a key condition for Israel to ever go for a peace deal.

[Scott]

One post has been deleted. Please don't specifically post material that is meant solely to bait other posters and take the thread off-topic.

Stay on topic.

[flying]

Nice to see these Israeli's state their pro Palestine Statehood opinion in Tel aviv

In the same spot Israel declared their Independence.

Nice breath of fresh air outlook by some.

Edited September 26, 2011 by flying

[Jingthing]

Nice to see these Israeli's state their pro Palestine Statehood opinion in Tel aviv

In the same spot Israel declared their Independence.

Nice breath of fresh air outlook by some.

Yes, democracy and free speech is a good thing.

Compare to Hamas/Gaza where the terrorist government there which actively promotes genocide of Jews didn't even let their people listen to the Abbas speech.

You also totally distort the issue of this minority protest. They are favoring the Abbas led UN recognition bid that avoids directly talking to Israel. That isn't by any stretch of the imagination the same thing as supporting Palestinian statehood in general (though NEGOTIATION with Israel). A MUCH BIGGER group of Israelis support the latter.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[Wallaby]

Whats the big deal about free speech? If that was a pre requesite then oz would still not be a country as it isn't in our consititution. We can't just go in public and say whatever we want, we have laws against certain speeches, ie: holocaust denial, hate speech etc. We do have common law that gives a certain freedom of speech but it isn't in the constitution and can be legislated against. We even have a movement that wanted to tell people to stop buying from an Israeli shop in oz but it was illegal to do so.

I also think the problem some on here have is that history is written by the victor, that does not mean it is correct history.

A condition of Palestinian statehood, as mentioned by many, is that Palestine must acknowledge Israel's right to exist ie: a condition. However, when Palestine wants a condition (stop building settlements) before it agrees to peace talks Netanyahu says there should be no conditions. Why does Israel consider it ok to put a condition on Palestine but consider it ok to tell Palestine they can't have conditions.

Israel simply does not want a level playing field, does not want Palestine to be a state, period.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Wallaby

[Pakboong]

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is responsible for the inability to reach a peace deal that would end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, former U.S. President Bill Clinton said on Thursday.

Speaking on the sidelines of the Clinton Global Initiative conference in New York, the former U.S. president was quoted by Foreign Policy magazine as claiming that Netanyahu lost interest in the peace process as soon as two basic Israelis demands seemed to come into reach: a viable Palestinian leadership and the possibility of normalizing ties with the Arab world."

I am not a Bill Clinton fan but I do not consider him to be stupid.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/bill-clinton-netanyahu-isn-t-interested-in-mideast-peace-deal-1.386222?

[Wallaby]

"Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is responsible for the inability to reach a peace deal that would end the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, former U.S. President Bill Clinton said on Thursday.

Speaking on the sidelines of the Clinton Global Initiative conference in New York, the former U.S. president was quoted by Foreign Policy magazine as claiming that Netanyahu lost interest in the peace process as soon as two basic Israelis demands seemed to come into reach: a viable Palestinian leadership and the possibility of normalizing ties with the Arab world."

I am not a Bill Clinton fan but I do not consider him to be stupid.

http://www.haaretz.c...-deal-1.386222?

It is sad when one has to be 'out of office' before he/she can state the bleeding obvious. Just shows you how scared the politicians are of the jewish lobby, instead of doing/saying what is right.

[Jingthing]

Like I said, responsibility is on both sides.

Why should Israel accept a Palestine with a terrorist government in Gaza openly advocating genocide of Jews and a government in the west bank who won't abandon their demand for right of return for Palestinians into Israel which would make Israel yet another Arab country?

I like Bill Clinton too but he is not always right.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/sources-quartet-push-for-peace-talks-weakened-by-issue-of-israel-as-jewish-state-1.386779

The issue of whether and how to suggest that Israel should be a Jewish state ultimately sank diplomatic efforts by the Mideast Quartet to draft a substantive statement to revive peace talks, sources familiar with the matter said.

The sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Israel and the Palestinians - and their effective proxies in the negotiations, the United States and Russia - remain too far apart on that issue and others.

Edited September 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

It is sad when one has to be 'out of office' before he/she can state the bleeding obvious. Just shows you how scared the politicians are of the jewish lobby, instead of doing/saying what is right.

Could it be that the American people actually support the right of Israel to continue to exist as a Jewish (it's capitalized) state because they actually believe in those values?

Edited September 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[Pakboong]

"Netanyahu proved Israel doesn't want peace

Netanyahu shows to the world that Israel wants neither an agreement nor a Palestinian state, and for that matter not peace, either."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/netanyahu-proved-israel-doesn-t-want-peace-1.386558

[Orac]

It is sad when one has to be 'out of office' before he/she can state the bleeding obvious. Just shows you how scared the politicians are of the jewish lobby, instead of doing/saying what is right.

Could it be that the American people actually support the right of Israel to continue to exist as a Jewish (it's capitalized) state because they actually believe in those values?

How come this arguement has moved from Palestinians rights to statehood to the existance of Israel as a Jewish state. As you stated earier:

'So now what? Two states living in peace or endless war?'

If this is either/or choice then lets go for two states. As far as a demands for right of return, I can't see how this would change as it would still be a decision that Israel would have to make which, as you state, is not going to happen.

This biggest issue that I would see would be expansion of settlements on Palestinian territory as I assume statehood would give them more protection from international judicial bodies.

Maybe I do not fully understand the implications of statehood for Palestine - are there other issues not being addressed that are being missed such as access to the large oil/gas reserves in the region???