British Birth By Descent - 2 Scenarios

[sequin]

Hi All

I'm British (born there, both parents British) and about to give birth to a son in a few months in Bangkok. His father is Thai and we are already married.

I've been checking in advance that all is fine for him to get British nationality, which I have been assured by various sources that is guaranteed as he would get it through me. I was very confident with it all, so much so that I just came back from a trip to England feeling fine about my decision to give birth in Bangkok, not England (as was just as possible...)

OK, so here's the dillema.... yesterday I asked at the Embassy if there was any down side or difference to giving birth in Thailand versus England in terms of my son's rights? They said there was no problem for him getting nationality but he would be British by Descent which means his children (my grand children) would have no rights to be British if they were not born in the UK. If I go back to the UK to give birth, so he will not have 'the descent bit' which means his children would be British natural too (although 'by descent', if born outside the UK)

Here are a couple of possible scenarios for my future which I'd like to check out, along with a 3rd hypothetical one....

1. Say I have my son in Bangkok and he grows up mainly in Thailand - so, as per the rules, am I right to believe that if he has a baby with a non-British passport holder (that doesn't/ can't have the baby in the UK) - that his child (my grandchild) will not be British? For example, he has a baby with a Thai woman who gives birth in Bangkok (which let's be honest, is quite likely if he grew up here)

2. Say my son and I move back to England a few months after he is born and he grows up, studies and lives full-time in England for the rest of his life. As per the rules so, even he spends his entire life (except for the first few months) in the UK, so his own child still cannot be British (if the mother is not British or gives birth there?) For example, he has a baby with a French woman who wants to go home to have the baby - so that baby wouldnt be British?

3. Say you are a British woman travelling overseas for a gap year and you found out you're pregnant (non-British father) and you happen to hear that Bangkok has some great hospitals and you'd prefer to give birth there.... So even you are permanently living in the UK (except for this gap year trip), will work in the UK when you return and be living the rest of your life there, so the mere fact you deliver a baby (say a girl) not in the UK means your child is only British by descent therefore cannot pass British nationality on if she too had a baby overseas in the future and has spent her whole life in the UK too?

Hope anyone on here can help me, I'm not sure I'm a really understanding this and I'm panicking that I have made an error by coming back to Bangkok to give birth.........

[samran]

Basically what you have outline is correct from my understanding.

The only rights I can think of to the UK your overseas born grandchild (GC)will have in the above circumstances are:

- automatic rights to live and work there if the GC happens to be born to someone who can pass down EU or British nationality to you GC.

- the GC can go back to live in the UK anyway as a minor on dependent family visa and after 5 years will be naturalised as 'british other than by descent'

- the grandchild if born to a Commonwealth citizen (eg aust, NZ, Malaysian, Canadian) will have a right to an 'ancestry' visa to live in the UK and naturalise after 5 years

- if the child would otherwise be stateless I believe that there may be options for the GC to be granted British citizenship

So it isn't the end of the world to have the baby in BKK, though your child will have to make some strategic choices later in life with regards to where he/she has their child

[BlueScouse]

This may muddy the waters a bit but I found this bit

•Children born outside the UK to British parents who were also born outside the UK, but who have a grandparent born in the UK can currently be registered as British within twelve months of the child's birth. This period will be extended so that the child can be registered at any time before the age of eighteen years.

From this website.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2009-09-12/uk/changes-to-british-nationality-law-from-january-2010.htm

I have also been wondering about my childrens ability to pass on their British nationality,if they ever want to.However both are Thai born and show no signs of wanting to even visit UK.

[MANICMINER]

This is part of the 'Earned citizenship' scheme which was supposed to be introduced this summer, but it was a policy come up by the previous Labour government, and i believe it was scrapped by the current government.

In response to the OP, the whole descent thing was so you could only pass citizenship down one generation, so your child will have British citizenship, but your grandchildren will not automatically get it, so in that respect, you may have made a mistake in giving birth in Thailand. The only way your grandchildren can get citizenship, is if they are born in the UK, or your child marries another British citizen who did not get the citizenship by descent only. There are some exceptions, but i believe they apply to people who work in embassies abroad.

This may muddy the waters a bit but I found this bit

•Children born outside the UK to British parents who were also born outside the UK, but who have a grandparent born in the UK can currently be registered as British within twelve months of the child's birth. This period will be extended so that the child can be registered at any time before the age of eighteen years.

From this website.

http://www.workpermi...anuary-2010.htm

I have also been wondering about my childrens ability to pass on their British nationality,if they ever want to.However both are Thai born and show no signs of wanting to even visit UK.

[lonewolf99]

Your child has the possibility to have both Thai and UK passports.

The child will have to leave and return from Thailand on his Thai passport. And arrive and leave the UK or any other country on his UK passport.

I personally qualify for dual citizenship (Not Thai) and if I chose to I could get another passport but prefer to stick to just the UK one.

[lopburi3]

Actually there is no such requirement to enter/exit only on Thai passport at all. Nor would they have to use UK passport for other countries (but it might be easier for entry). This thread is really not about dual nationality itself but about requirements for passing down nationality specific to UK/Thailand.

[PattayaPhom]

You chose to marry a foreigner, you chose to give birth in a foreign country, your child will choose not live live in the UK, your child will choose to marry a foreigner, your child will choose to have children in Thailand......why on Earth, should those children have any right to UK Citizenship???

[JohnC]

Or your son could be gay so you will not have any grandchildren and therefore no problem!

[7by7]

If your child is born outside the UK he will be British by descent and so cannot automatically pass his British nationality onto his children.

If his children are born in the UK or a qualifying territory, they will be British.

If his children are born outside the UK or a qualifying territory, they will only be British if their mother is British otherwise than by descent. Although, as already mentioned, he could apply to register them as British.

Whether you are normally a UK resident and happen to give birth while temporarily outside the UK does not change this.

See here for the details on British nationality.

[Soutpeel]

If your child is born outside the UK he will be British by descent and so cannot automatically pass his British nationality onto his children.

If his children are born in the UK or a qualifying territory, they will be British.

If his children are born outside the UK or a qualifying territory, they will only be British if their mother is British otherwise than by descent. Although, as already mentioned, he could apply to register them as British.

Whether you are normally a UK resident and happen to give birth while temporarily outside the UK does not change this.

See here for the details on British nationality.

and this is the correct answer.....

[PattayaParent]

If your child is born outside the UK he will be British by descent and so cannot automatically pass his British nationality onto his children.

If his children are born in the UK or a qualifying territory, they will be British.

If his children are born outside the UK or a qualifying territory, they will only be British if their mother is British otherwise than by descent. Although, as already mentioned, he could apply to register them as British.

Whether you are normally a UK resident and happen to give birth while temporarily outside the UK does not change this.

See here for the details on British nationality.

So someone who is not born British but takes British nationality can pass that nationality on, but someone who is born British cannot pass their nationality on?

[samran]

If your child is born outside the UK he will be British by descent and so cannot automatically pass his British nationality onto his children.

If his children are born in the UK or a qualifying territory, they will be British.

If his children are born outside the UK or a qualifying territory, they will only be British if their mother is British otherwise than by descent. Although, as already mentioned, he could apply to register them as British.

Whether you are normally a UK resident and happen to give birth while temporarily outside the UK does not change this.

See here for the details on British nationality.

So someone who is not born British but takes British nationality can pass that nationality on, but someone who is born British cannot pass their nationality on?

That is about the gist of it....

Others do it differently:

Thailand allows nationality to be passed on indefinitely so long as one of the parents is Thai, regardless of the place of birth.

Australia allows a similar thing, so long as the overseas born Australian citizen by descent can show a total of 2 years of having lived in Australia at any point of their life. I guess in recognition of the fact that we live in a pretty mobile world so where you are born doesn't necessarily reflect your identity, nor should it automatically define your citizenship. Fortunately for us my two Thai born children have racked up their 2 years in OZ, so they can pass down their OZ citizenship on the same basis as an Australian born child. They just need to spend 5 years in NZ (which has a similar rule) so they can do a similar things with their NZ passports!

[sequin]

Hi All

Thanks so much for the input and support. I'll be seeing a lawyer next week about other stuff, but will throw this in and let you know the feedback. I'll be asking for a likely event which is - if myself and my child (British born by Descent) end up living permanently in the UK, are there any ways of changing my child's nationality back to British (without the Descent)?

Whatever I hear (good or bad) I'll update back here for those that are in the same situation now or maybe later. It's certainly very interesting and I'm learning a lot from you all.

Speak soon

[MANICMINER]

i think you will find that one cannot change the status of how they obtained their citizenship, but if you and your child return to the UK, and your grandchildren are born in the UK, the citizenship line is restored. then all the future generations of your family will be no different to other British citizens in the U.K, so then it does not matter how your child obtained his/her citizenship.

Hi All

Thanks so much for the input and support. I'll be seeing a lawyer next week about other stuff, but will throw this in and let you know the feedback. I'll be asking for a likely event which is - if myself and my child (British born by Descent) end up living permanently in the UK, are there any ways of changing my child's nationality back to British (without the Descent)?

Whatever I hear (good or bad) I'll update back here for those that are in the same situation now or maybe later. It's certainly very interesting and I'm learning a lot from you all.

Speak soon

[PattayaParent]

Checked my child's UK passport at the weekend and although born outside UK with a foreign mother the passport states British Citizen with no mention of 'by descent' in it.This is a second (renewal) passport since birth.