Occupy As A Means To Financial Reform

[Jingthing]

Paul Krugman is the laughing stock of the world. The guy who thinks it would be great if America was hit with ten hurricanes and everyone was made homeless! Think of all the construction jobs! Jesus Christ.

I guess the NOBEL PRIZE committee wasn't aware he was a global laughingstock before they awarded him a NOBEL PRIZE in economics. Learn something everyday!

Edited October 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[midas]

I reckon anyone who thinks you can solve the debt problem by creating even more debt

should read this book

[serenitynow]

You should put down the pom-poms & pick up a book.

There we go again. The cryptic suggestions. The mystery. I read LOTS of books!

WHAT book are you talking about -- name the book please. It's not polite to play games and act intellectually superior if you aren't willing to spill the beans.

Look there are the clues again, obsession about fiat currency is code word for favoring going back to the GOLD standard, which is the cornerstone of the far right wing anti-Keysnian economic ideology of guess who? RON PAUL is who. Again, it's totally delusional to think the mainstream OWS crowd is going to favor such extremely radical anti-Kesysnian economic solutions. In fact, the total opposite! Sorry, yes people do have to pick sides if they hope to accomplish something.

I never said this OWS was as small as only health care, or related to Obama or the democratic party. However, there is no doubt that any rational book reading or media watching person would come to the conclusion that the goals of OWS are closer to the typical platforms of the democratic party than the now radical right wing republican party. No, neither party has delivered, and in any case, the government is very dysfunctional anyway, which is making the problems worse.

How are the people supposed to MAKE the government be more functional? Do you have a better idea than political pressure? Lobbying doesn't work for the people; that's the game of the corporations and the people always lose. So yes, it is to the streets time, no doubt.

Ya know Jingthing, Keynes isn't the only economist who ever lived and I'd be willing to bet that even he would be an "anti-Keynesian" if he'd seen some of the obscene fiscal corruption perpetrated in his name.

[serenitynow]

Paul Krugman is the laughing stock of the world. The guy who thinks it would be great if America was hit with ten hurricanes and everyone was made homeless! Think of all the construction jobs! Jesus Christ.

I guess the NOBEL PRIZE committee wasn't aware he was a global laughingstock before they awarded him a NOBEL PRIZE in economics. Learn something everyday!

Now someone's going to drag up the fact that Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize and you're both going to end up looking like idiots.

[Jingthing]

People are suffering and dying by the millions in the US due to economic inequality and hard economic times. The right wing tea party is incorrectly obsessed with the LONG TERM debt right now. This is exactly the WRONG time to be focused on the debt. If the tea party wins this fight, we are talking about a twenty year great depression.

It's time to be focused on FDR style massive government programs to save millions of lives in a crisis. Also MORE government regulation over financial institutions, not less or none. I have just described the huge divide between the right wing tea party and the emerging left wing OWS movement.

For the intellectual basis for this, refer to Krugman and Stiglitz. Lay off the gold standard junkies like Ron Paul and (antisemitic American fascist) Henry Ford.

Note this Ron Paul fan site paying tribute to American fascist Henry Ford.

http://www.ronpaul.com/on-the-issues/fiat-money-inflation-federal-reserve-2/

Yes I think it is down now once again to the humanist leftists vs. fascists (tea party) in America. Time to take a side.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[midas]

It's time to be focused on FDR style massive government programs to save millions of lives in a crisis. Also MORE government regulation over financial institutions, not less or none. I have just described the huge divide between the right wing tea party and the emerging left wing OWS movement.

surely firstly it's time to prosecute those that broke the law ! Listen to these stunning statistics comparing

the number of people that were charged and prosecuted in the savings and loan debacle compared to just recently

you can only come to one possible conclusion -that Obama and his administration are protecting the perpetrators.

Bill Black @ #occupywallstreet on Arresting Banksters

[Jingthing]

I agree, prosecute offenders as well.

However, that's focused on the past.

I think the focus needs to be on saving and improving the lives of the 99 percent for the future!

[midas]

I agree, prosecute offenders as well.

However, that's focused on the past.

I think the focus needs to be on saving and improving the lives of the 99 percent for the future!

You repeatedly keep asking for more spending but you heard in that video how many jobs have been lost that can be attributed

to the criminal activities of these banksters.

So how about criminal prosecutions involving jail time for the offenders

PLUS FINES to at least recover as much money as possible? no one really knows what the possibilities are

unless they start the litigation.

Then you wouldn't need to be on TV every day calling for more stimulus?

[serenitynow]

People are suffering and dying by the millions in the US due to economic inequality and hard economic times. The right wing tea party is incorrectly obsessed with the LONG TERM debt right now. This is exactly the WRONG time to be focused on the debt. If the tea party wins this fight, we are talking about a twenty year great depression.

It's time to be focused on FDR style massive government programs to save millions of lives in a crisis. Also MORE government regulation over financial institutions, not less or none. I have just described the huge divide between the right wing tea party and the emerging left wing OWS movement.

For the intellectual basis for this, refer to Krugman and Stiglitz. Lay off the Paul and Henry Ford.

How can you call the OWS movement both left wing and mainstrem? If you're right that it is left wing and that the Tea Party is right wing then it seems pretty evident to me that neither group will be able to accomplish their stated goals. Perhaps were still waiting for the emergence of a centrist group that can find more commonality between these two outlier groups (if you've described them correctly). Me, I think much more that people are the same rather than different and it is their sameness, not their differences that make them stronger. I am not a fan of those who think democracy is an exercise in divisiveness.

Even the rich are fed up with government and Wall Street, which are more and more wings of each other. Interesting interview:

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/rich-good-anything-besides-paying-taxes-spending-160215853.html

[serenitynow]

I agree, prosecute offenders as well.

However, that's focused on the past.

I think the focus needs to be on saving and improving the lives of the 99 percent for the future!

Generally the carcasses of the prosecuted ARE the best deterrent against future corrupt activity. Corruption with impunity breeds more corruption.

[midas]

I agree, prosecute offenders as well.

However, that's focused on the past.

I think the focus needs to be on saving and improving the lives of the 99 percent for the future!

You repeatedly keep asking for more spending but you heard in that video how many jobs have been lost that can be attributed

to the criminal activities of these banksters.

So how about criminal prosecutions involving jail time for the offenders

PLUS FINES to at least recover as much money as possible? no one really knows what the possibilities are

unless they start the litigation.

Then you wouldn't need to be on TV every day calling for more stimulus?

Case in point Jingthing. The money could be recovered if Obama and his administration really wanted

so instead of spending money YOU DONT HAVE..... better to recover the money from those who shouldn't have it in the first place

Yes We Can … Recover Fraudulently-Earned Money

"And because fraud caused the Great Depression and the current economic crisis, and the economy cannot stabilize until the rule of law is restored, and criminal fraud on Wall Street is prosecuted, suing to recoup criminally-gotten gains is the best thing we can do for our economy."

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/10/top-fraud-prosecutor-the-criminals-can-be-forced-to-disgorge-their-ill-gotten-gains-including-bonuses/

[Jingthing]

People are suffering and dying by the millions in the US due to economic inequality and hard economic times. The right wing tea party is incorrectly obsessed with the LONG TERM debt right now. This is exactly the WRONG time to be focused on the debt. If the tea party wins this fight, we are talking about a twenty year great depression.

It's time to be focused on FDR style massive government programs to save millions of lives in a crisis. Also MORE government regulation over financial institutions, not less or none. I have just described the huge divide between the right wing tea party and the emerging left wing OWS movement.

For the intellectual basis for this, refer to Krugman and Stiglitz. Lay off the Paul and Henry Ford.

How can you call the OWS movement both left wing and mainstrem? If you're right that it is left wing and that the Tea Party is right wing then it seems pretty evident to me that neither group will be able to accomplish their stated goals. Perhaps were still waiting for the emergence of a centrist group that can find more commonality between these two outlier groups (if you've described them correctly). Me, I think much more that people are the same rather than different and it is their sameness, not their differences that make them stronger. I am not a fan of those who think democracy is an exercise in divisiveness.

Even the rich are fed up with government and Wall Street, which are more and more wings of each other. Interesting interview:

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/rich-good-anything-besides-paying-taxes-spending-160215853.html

Easy! Because massive economic suffering naturally spawns leftist movements. Sadly, it also spawns right wing movements as well. How do you think FDR was able to pass his massive left wing new deal?

The shocking thing really is why it took SO LONG for this movement to emerge, to respond to the right wing tea party. I probably had something to do with giving Obama a chance, but now sadly it's clear he hasn't performed for the people. Now the focus of national debate HAS already changed, away from long term debt obsessive tea partiers TOWARDS the crisis of economic inequality.

It's a shame a third party doesn't work in America because now would be a good time. But done now, an OWS third party would simply insure a total victory of the far right.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Jingthing

[serenitynow]

People are suffering and dying by the millions in the US due to economic inequality and hard economic times. The right wing tea party is incorrectly obsessed with the LONG TERM debt right now. This is exactly the WRONG time to be focused on the debt. If the tea party wins this fight, we are talking about a twenty year great depression.

It's time to be focused on FDR style massive government programs to save millions of lives in a crisis. Also MORE government regulation over financial institutions, not less or none. I have just described the huge divide between the right wing tea party and the emerging left wing OWS movement.

For the intellectual basis for this, refer to Krugman and Stiglitz. Lay off the Paul and Henry Ford.

How can you call the OWS movement both left wing and mainstrem? If you're right that it is left wing and that the Tea Party is right wing then it seems pretty evident to me that neither group will be able to accomplish their stated goals. Perhaps were still waiting for the emergence of a centrist group that can find more commonality between these two outlier groups (if you've described them correctly). Me, I think much more that people are the same rather than different and it is their sameness, not their differences that make them stronger. I am not a fan of those who think democracy is an exercise in divisiveness.

Even the rich are fed up with government and Wall Street, which are more and more wings of each other. Interesting interview:

http://finance.yahoo...-160215853.html

Easy! Because massive economic suffering naturally spawns leftist movements. How do you think FDR was able to pass his massive left wing new deal?

Actually, I would be in favor of a New Deal type policy. If you could take the millions of unemployed and pay them something like minimum wage to work on government infrastructure projects that would keep them productive, serve the common good and allow time to pass, which is the real cure for the problems afflicting the economy.

Instead however, if one wants to "grow government" under prevailing circumstances that only feeds into the corporate maw, You've got a president and a congress in the corporation's pocket. The answer isn't to give them more money to ditribute to those corporations. Sure they'll call it a "Jobs Bill", but even a political hack like yourself wouldn't believe that would you?

Edited October 30, 2011 by serenitynow

[Jingthing]

I agree. A new new deal is required now. There are many millions of people who will never work again unless they are helped to help themselves with productive work. It's a crisis -- NOW.

[serenitynow]

I agree. A new new deal is required now. There are many millions of people who will never work again unless they are helped to help themselves with productive work. It's a crisis -- NOW.

So, first thing you do is repeal the Davis-Bacon Act and stop listening to unions. Are you with me so far?

[flying]

I guess the NOBEL PRIZE committee wasn't aware he was a global laughingstock before they awarded him a NOBEL PRIZE in economics. Learn something everyday!

Now someone's going to drag up the fact that Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize and you're both going to end up looking like idiots.

I was thinking that the moment I read that silliness

[farang000999]

Paul Krugman is the laughing stock of the world. The guy who thinks it would be great if America was hit with ten hurricanes and everyone was made homeless! Think of all the construction jobs! Jesus Christ.

I guess the NOBEL PRIZE committee wasn't aware he was a global laughingstock before they awarded him a NOBEL PRIZE in economics. Learn something everyday!

yes and ben bernanke the #1 man in charge said that there was no housing bubble, that home prices wouldn't go down, that MBS was not a problem and that there would be no recession. so i guess we can conclude that the field of economics post J.M.K has been significantly lacking.

what u don't seem to understand JingThing is that the system of the Fed is designed for the bankers and politicians to rob and loot. it is no surprise thus that krugman and obama are winnng peace prizes.they are certainly crowd pleasers of the 1%.

Edited October 30, 2011 by farang000999

[farang000999]

I agree. A new new deal is required now. There are many millions of people who will never work again unless they are helped to help themselves with productive work. It's a crisis -- NOW.

you really need to reread that article i sent u a link of.

did u not understand that FDR's policies and New Deal just hurt things?

[Jingthing]

I agree. A new new deal is required now. There are many millions of people who will never work again unless they are helped to help themselves with productive work. It's a crisis -- NOW.

So, first thing you do is repeal the Davis-Bacon Act and stop listening to unions. Are you with me so far?

Not with you.

[Jingthing]

I agree. A new new deal is required now. There are many millions of people who will never work again unless they are helped to help themselves with productive work. It's a crisis -- NOW.

you really need to reread that article i sent u a link of.

did u not understand that FDR's policies and New Deal just hurt things?

Understood. Did not believe.

[Jingthing]

what u don't seem to understand JingThing is that the system of the Fed is designed for the bankers and politicians to rob and loot. it is no surprise thus that krugman and obama are winnng peace prizes.they are certainly crowd pleasers of the 1%.

First of all both Krugman and Stiglitz are very critical of Obama.

Secondly, I am with you on clamping down on misbehavior and corruption in the Fed. I am not with radical people, mostly right wingers, who favor throwing it all in the trash.

[JimGant]

Ah, nice to read something by a pragmatic Republican:

"Let me state plainly that government spending is the cause of the problem by an immense margin. [but], additional revenue has its place in a sensible discussion as we take on the urgent task of addressing the budget deficit."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-if-anything-to-do-about-wall-streets-wealth/2011/10/26/gIQASfYNNM_story.html

Sadly, the closest Republican pragmatist running for Pres is Jon Huntsman. And he doesn't have a prayer of winning the primary in this red-meat atmosphere.

I'm afraid the OWS crowd will be terribly disappointed by their choices come a year from now.

[midas]

with the snow arriving in New York and NYPD having confiscated generators,there were signs that many protesters may have

left the scene but someone has come up with a very innovative idea

CALL TO ACTION: Please help recruit serious cyclists to do their winter training at Occupy Wall Street and Occupy DC. They can easily power the generators needed to run the food and medical tents, the computers and some heat sources to prevent frostbite

" Please help recruit cyclists to do their winter training at Occupy Wall Street and Occupy DC.

Serious cyclists can easily power the generators needed to run the food and medical tents, the computers and some heat sources.

Serious cyclists need to keep riding through the winter, with limited safe opportunities due to weather and dark. It is certain that cyclists are of the 99%, in view of the gasoline-centric nature of rich-man-culture, and the current Republican push in the Senate to squeeze Open Streets funding out of the Transportation bill. Are you a cyclist? Would you volunteer some regular hours to keep the occupations powered? Just by doing your regular training, you'd be helping to provide a heat source to prevent frostbite, helping to provide heat source for cooking, helping to provide power to medical technicians and helping to provide power to communications and computer systems.

A great visual, a dozen bikes on trainers all hooked up to generators. Picture these all lined up in a section of the park, cyclists signing up online and taking shifts.

Please help spread the word among the cycling community. Encourage others to email friends who might participate. Email bicycling websites / magazines etc. If you are a serious cyclist, please ask each of your friends if they'll take a shift and suggest they ask ten more to do the same.

Do your winter training and help power the heroes who are standing up for our rights."

[serenitynow]

I agree. A new new deal is required now. There are many millions of people who will never work again unless they are helped to help themselves with productive work. It's a crisis -- NOW.

So, first thing you do is repeal the Davis-Bacon Act and stop listening to unions. Are you with me so far?

Not with you.

I'll give you an example from 25 years or so ago. My buddy ran a fairly large construction company and was awarded the contract to build a small convention center in a smallish tourist town on the Pacific coast. Due to a significant amount of the funding coming from US govt. grants his hiring practices fell under the Davis- Bacon Act. In the mid 1980's he was compelled to pay union carpenters $28/hr and for the plumbing subcontractor he was hired to hire union "pipefitters" for over $40/hr. It blew the bid way up and the project ended up costing more than double what it should have. Prevailing wages at that time were significantly less (more than 50% less) than what he was compelled to pay. The project which had marginal utility to begin with ended up becoming a boondoggle instead.

I've got nothing against unions. I worked my entire adult life as a member of one union or another, but that is not the answer to what America needs right now. What it needs is loads of worthy projects completed on tight budgetary restrictions. It needs something closer to full employment and that means lower wages. It doesn't need demagoguery or corporate welfare dressed up as jobs bills.

[waza]

I agree. A new new deal is required now. There are many millions of people who will never work again unless they are helped to help themselves with productive work. It's a crisis -- NOW.

So, first thing you do is repeal the Davis-Bacon Act and stop listening to unions. Are you with me so far?

Not with you.

I'll give you an example from 25 years or so ago. My buddy ran a fairly large construction company and was awarded the contract to build a small convention center in a smallish tourist town on the Pacific coast. Due to a significant amount of the funding coming from US govt. grants his hiring practices fell under the Davis- Bacon Act. In the mid 1980's he was compelled to pay union carpenters $28/hr and for the plumbing subcontractor he was hired to hire union "pipefitters" for over $40/hr. It blew the bid way up and the project ended up costing more than double what it should have. Prevailing wages at that time were significantly less (more than 50% less) than what he was compelled to pay. The project which had marginal utility to begin with ended up becoming a boondoggle instead.

I've got nothing against unions. I worked my entire adult life as a member of one union or another, but that is not the answer to what America needs right now. What it needs is loads of worthy projects completed on tight budgetary restrictions. It needs something closer to full employment and that means lower wages. It doesn't need demagoguery or corporate welfare dressed up as jobs bills.

So your saying that unionists should have their wages restricted, regulated and discounted by legislation, while executives salaries and bonuses are unregulated, unrestricted and extreme. I guess you also agree with tax cuts for the rich and a reduction in social services.

Edited October 30, 2011 by waza

[flying]

So your saying that unionists should have their wages restricted, regulated and discounted by legislation, while executives salaries and bonuses are unregulated, unrestricted and extreme. I guess you also agree with tax cuts for the rich and a reduction in social services.

I don't think that is what he is saying & he can correct me if I am wrong but.....

I am & have been a Contractor most of my life.....Non Union

I know my bids are competitive & fair.

I also know I have seen union contractors die because they cannot get private sector jobs...

This is because they are forced to pay unreasonable wages that put them outside the competition.

I do not regulate nor underpay...My workers are more than happy with their pay.

This pay is not set by regulations or legislation it is set by the market.

I should also mention it is no where near legal minimum wage & is actually 4-500% higher than federal minimum wages.

Of course because I am in a skilled trade & use workers with skills. Those skills earned them their pay rate

not a union.

Unions days are numbered. They are a product of an era gone by.

Unions had a purpose when there were no labor laws to protect workers & things such as sweat shops existed.

Today they are just another predator taking a cut of the working mans wages & due to that they need to price union workers

pay beyond market capabilities. As such the companies that are using union labor are not only unable to get contracts

but even if they did they cannot bring a project in at a competitive market price.

It is Unions that regulate prices & as such have killed many an industry.

Look at the UAW & see how they have taken a hit.

If Obama did not owe them favors General Motors would be DOA

Instead they are now Government Motors

The unions got fat on their cut of the working mans labors & they (unions) did quite well.

But at what cost to society & the industries that are no longer competitive...if they even still exist.

The unions caused more owners ( in sectors that could manufacturing etc )to go offshore to become competitive & in the end who lost due to that?

But what choice does a company have when faced with paying unreasonable union wages & not being able to bring

a product to market at a fair/competitive price?

Edited October 30, 2011 by flying

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

A big part of the problem.

How might it look if we compared the private sector's share of our economy in 1947 to today? You have already viewed the pie charts for spending outlays shown at the top of the page and in the Private Sector Report referenced above. The following charts provide a graphical view for outlays PLUS regulatory costs that might be expected, showing the Free-market Private sector's share being reduced from 74% to 42% of the economy - 1947 to today.

Take a look at this chart. Note the size of the blue (private sector) slice of the economic pie in the left chart, compared to its share of the pie in the right chart.

The chart shows the blue private sector share 74% share of the economic pie (national income) in 1947 shrinking to a 22% share today, as both government spending outlays and regulatory compliance costs expanded faster than growth of the general economy.

This demonstrates graphically how federal & state/local government spending combines with government mandated regulatory compliance costs, to change the relative free-market, productive private sector share of the economy, over time.

And, to place that yellow wedge in perspective, regulatory compliance costs total a huge sum: nearly as much as all the spending by all state & local governments, or twice the size of combined social security and Medicare spending, or three times larger than defense.

[flying]

A big part of the problem.

The chart shows the blue private sector share 74% share of the economic pie (national income) in 1947 shrinking to a 22% share today, as both government spending outlays and regulatory compliance costs expanded faster than growth of the general economy.

Yes a very big part!

[serenitynow]

So, first thing you do is repeal the Davis-Bacon Act and stop listening to unions. Are you with me so far?

Not with you.

I'll give you an example from 25 years or so ago. My buddy ran a fairly large construction company and was awarded the contract to build a small convention center in a smallish tourist town on the Pacific coast. Due to a significant amount of the funding coming from US govt. grants his hiring practices fell under the Davis- Bacon Act. In the mid 1980's he was compelled to pay union carpenters $28/hr and for the plumbing subcontractor he was hired to hire union "pipefitters" for over $40/hr. It blew the bid way up and the project ended up costing more than double what it should have. Prevailing wages at that time were significantly less (more than 50% less) than what he was compelled to pay. The project which had marginal utility to begin with ended up becoming a boondoggle instead.

I've got nothing against unions. I worked my entire adult life as a member of one union or another, but that is not the answer to what America needs right now. What it needs is loads of worthy projects completed on tight budgetary restrictions. It needs something closer to full employment and that means lower wages. It doesn't need demagoguery or corporate welfare dressed up as jobs bills.

So your saying that unionists should have their wages restricted, regulated and discounted by legislation, while executives salaries and bonuses are unregulated, unrestricted and extreme. I guess you also agree with tax cuts for the rich and a reduction in social services.

You seem to have read a lot into what I wrote but didn't say. Frankly, I don't care if the unionists have their wages restricted or not. My point was that no one should be compelled to hire them. Unless I'm a shareholder of a company I don't care what executive salaries and bonuses are either UNLESS they are being subsidized by others and their winning business has nothing to do with normal competitive forces. It's the unfairness of who is granted the right to bid work that causes these distortions. More competition less excesses.

I don't necessarily agree with tax cuts or tax hikes for the rich. I have my own ideas about taxation, which is closer to a flat tax for most people (with a sub-poverty level exemption) and then a second taxation level above a certain amount of annual income. I expect it would lead to greater revenues, which I feel are needed to help retire debt. I can't speak to your social services question as I'm not aware of what the government does in that area.

[waza]

I don't think that is what he is saying & he can correct me if I am wrong but.....

I am & have been a Contractor most of my life.....Non Union

I know my bids are competitive & fair.(but not fair for your employees because they must discount the value of their work, have you considered lowing your profit margiin?)

I also know I have seen union contractors die because they cannot get private sector jobs... (discrimination)

This is because they are forced to pay unreasonable wages that put them outside the competition.

I do not regulate nor underpay...My workers are more than happy with their pay. (they have no say in their wage and must rely on your generousity)

This pay is not set by regulations or legislation it is set by the market. (No its set by you based on how much your overheads, wages and profit are)

I should also mention it is no where near legal minimum wage & is actually 4-500% higher than federal minimum wages. (Why?)

Of course because I am in a skilled trade & use workers with skills. Those skills earned them their pay rate not a union. (No their skills earnt them a job, you determined their pay rate)

Unions days are numbered. They are a product of an era gone by. (Utter rubbish, Unions are organisations formed by workers, managed by workers for the workers benefit, so they dont have to rely on your generousity but can earn a fair wage for their labours, and as long as employers want to dictate wages and continue to circumvent labour laws,we will need unions.)

Unions had a purpose when there were no labor laws to protect workers & things such as sweat shops existed.

(Those protections and laws exist because of union action, however, they are under constant attack by employers)

Today they are just another predator taking a cut of the working mans wages & due to that they need to price union workers (union membership is volentary, its employers who discriminate against unionists)

pay beyond market capabilities. As such the companies that are using union labor are not only unable to get contracts

but even if they did they cannot bring a project in at a competitive market price.

It is Unions that regulate prices & as such have killed many an industry. (unions havent killed any industries, Capitalist, employers move those industries to other markets that have lower costs of production,EG: lower taxes, wages energy ect)

Look at the UAW & see how they have taken a hit.

If Obama did not owe them favors General Motors would be DOA (because of the debts caused by management)

Instead they are now Government Motors

The unions got fat on their cut of the working mans labors & they (unions) did quite well. (cant see any Unionist in Forbes richest people)

But at what cost to society & the industries that are no longer competitive...if they even still exist. (They are uncompetitive because its not an even playing field)

The unions caused more owners ( in sectors that could manufacturing etc )to go offshore to become competitive & in the end who lost due to that?

But what choice does a company have when faced with paying unreasonable union wages & not being able to bring

a product to market at a fair/competitive price? (actually owners move to increase profits, they are looking for countries with lax laws on worker exploitation, enviromental laws, taxes and a large pool of unemployed)

In conclusion, you are just quoting the same old bullshit from the capitalist song book. The current state of countries like the USA are like that because of unregulated capitalism not from unionism,