1,000 Boats To Push Flood Waters From Chao Phraya River

[GazR]

This is the land contour from north of Auttaya South to the bay. A flood control channel although expensive would protect all of the communities south of it's inlet if sized appropriately. The slope shows it would be a very simple construction project. It would not need to be a concrete structure. The first southern 75 km stretch would protect Bangkok and the rest of the northerly section would protect Auttaya. If they were serious about flood control they have to invest in more than the gasoline for motorboat taxis. The path of the channel could be adjusted to minimize impact on the public and as it would remain dry during the major portion of the year could be crossed in many places without bridges. The laminar flow would transport water very quickly from the north to the bay. The extreme northern inlet could be located close to Pa Mok and the inlet south could be located close to Ratchakham.

So what would you say is the degree of difference between the laminar flow of the Chaophraya and the mooted flood control channel and how much difference would that actually make, do you reckon?

[Dag]

It should work when combined with this info from the Nation......"In the late afternoon, the governor organised a religious ceremony and asked holy beings to push water into other areas."

[givenall]

No, this is not the only thing that is planned. They are having a ceremony to ask for mercy from the Water Goddess!

Don’t forget the bear party they will have while thinking they actually effecting the flood

[rakman]

Just in case somebody is bored on this lovely Saturday evening.

"Flow Dynamics in Open Channels and Rivers"

Cool.. Nice paper.

Thanks for posting.

[GazR]

come on guys cut them some slack, they are just trying to look likre they are doing something since they can really do nothing at this point in time. I think give all the residence in Bangkok a paddle and tell them to go down to the river and start paddling this should speed up the river as well.

Agree on the 'morale boost' angle, but from my experience of water management and commuting hundreds of times on the Chaophraya between Nonthaburi Pier and Sathorn Road, given the right set of conditions it might have a chance of at least being worth the effort. Of course T.I.T. and it would take a near miracle for the powers that be to effectively implement anything bigger than a police shakedown - I mean checkpoint .

[janverbeem]

No, this is not the only thing that is planned. They are having a ceremony to ask for mercy from the Water Goddess!

You could have said that earlier, why they still need the boats?

[shunima]

Just in case somebody is bored on this lovely Saturday evening.

"Flow Dynamics in Open Channels and Rivers"

Cool.. Nice paper.

Thanks for posting.

You're most welcome :-)

[BuckarooBanzai]

This is the land contour from north of Auttaya South to the bay. A flood control channel although expensive would protect all of the communities south of it's inlet if sized appropriately. The slope shows it would be a very simple construction project. It would not need to be a concrete structure. The first southern 75 km stretch would protect Bangkok and the rest of the northerly section would protect Auttaya. If they were serious about flood control they have to invest in more than the gasoline for motorboat taxis. The path of the channel could be adjusted to minimize impact on the public and as it would remain dry during the major portion of the year could be crossed in many places without bridges. The laminar flow would transport water very quickly from the north to the bay. The extreme northern inlet could be located close to Pa Mok and the inlet south could be located close to Ratchakham.

So what would you say is the degree of difference between the laminar flow of the Chaophraya and the mooted flood control channel and how much difference would that actually make, do you reckon?

Meandering rivers have chaotic flow where flood channels should result in laminar flows. Big difference in how energy is expended and the overall speed of the volume of water. I have given you enough to go on to Google the differences for yourself as I can give you no specifics.

[chinook]

Good grief.....Science and Technology Minister........can’t remember which forum I read it on, but is this not the same clown who suggested that the animals in the Chiang Mai Safari could be served up in the on site restaurant...........anyway, wait and see which pier or bridge gets wrecked first. He’s too high up the ladder to be openly criticised by colleagues or academics....aye, we’re doomed, all doomed I say.

[mightyharriss]

This belongs as an April fools. The wake alone would cause more flooding over the river banks

[DLock]

Oh my.

This is the master plan that the Government has for dealing with the rising floods?

I like the idea of giving everyone down the riverbanks a paddle and asking them to all paddle at once...and when it fails, the Government can blame the people for not paddling hard enough.

It's not as if this doesn't happen every few years or so.

[scorpio2369]

QUOTE

"Building of dykes and drainage: Existing dykes can cope with flood water at a level of 2.5 metres, and water flow of 3,000-3,500 cubic metres per second, with drainage capacity of 60 millimetres per hour.

Dykes

In eastern Bangkok:

A total of 72 kilometres of dykes have been built at royal initiative

Along the Chao Phraya River and the Bangkok Noi and Maha Sawas canals:

To contain water from the North and rising seawater, 75.8km have been built of a planned 77km, with the remaining sections expected to be completed this year. The dykes can contain flood water at a level of 2.5 metres, while the unfinished sections will do so at 2-2.5 metres.

Drainage operations:

More sewers and dredging of canals; pumping stations have been readied

Mobile-pumping units (1,152 operational)

Giant tunnels

21 catchment areas

95 BEST units comprising 700 officials are on standby

Coordination centre is active.

End QUOTE.

if this is all in place and fully operational, then WHY would someone think that a 1,000 boats could be better then this? Something does not add up......

[rakman]

This is the land contour from north of Auttaya South to the bay. A flood control channel although expensive would protect all of the communities south of it's inlet if sized appropriately. The slope shows it would be a very simple construction project. It would not need to be a concrete structure. The first southern 75 km stretch would protect Bangkok and the rest of the northerly section would protect Auttaya. If they were serious about flood control they have to invest in more than the gasoline for motorboat taxis. The path of the channel could be adjusted to minimize impact on the public and as it would remain dry during the major portion of the year could be crossed in many places without bridges. The laminar flow would transport water very quickly from the north to the bay. The extreme northern inlet could be located close to Pa Mok and the inlet south could be located close to Ratchakham.

Utilizing a straight path as you show will be much more efficient flowing water than the meandering river, which normally would adjust itself if the banks didn't constrain it.

Since there is such a slight elevation change and tidal levels acting against the flow, planning for the 100, 300 or 500 year flood volume would make a bypass fairly wide.

Bangkok is in a precarious locale, like the delta of Bangladesh.

A new or full moon tidal flow will make more difference both positive and negative than putting boats on the river.

Edited October 8, 2011 by rakman

[rubl]

This is the land contour from north of Auttaya South to the bay. A flood control channel although expensive would protect all of the communities south of it's inlet if sized appropriately. The slope shows it would be a very simple construction project. It would not need to be a concrete structure. The first southern 75 km stretch would protect Bangkok and the rest of the northerly section would protect Auttaya. If they were serious about flood control they have to invest in more than the gasoline for motorboat taxis. The path of the channel could be adjusted to minimize impact on the public and as it would remain dry during the major portion of the year could be crossed in many places without bridges. The laminar flow would transport water very quickly from the north to the bay. The extreme northern inlet could be located close to Pa Mok and the inlet south could be located close to Ratchakham.

Utilizing a straight path as you show will be much more efficient flowing water than the meandering river, which normally would adjust itself if the banks didn't constrain it.

Since there is such a slight elevation change and tidal levels acting against the flow, planning for the 100, 300 or 500 year flood volume would make a bypass fairly wide.

Bangkok is in a precarious locale, like the delta of Bangladesh.

A new or full moon tidal flow will make more difference both positive and negative than putting boats on the river.

A flood control channel may or may not work, but would need something like the Thames barrier to avoid problems at strong flows, high tides, storms, any combination. Furthermore the waterfront left and right of the end of the channel would also need extra protection to avoid just moving problems. All doable, just a bit of planning, consistency, some money, political will to make difficult decisions, etc., etc.

The Dutch have some experience in this. Models calculating risks and change-of-flooding even put a price on a human life (2.2 million Euro, 2008 level).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_Works

From your local Dutch uncle

[unanimosity]

No, this is not the only thing that is planned. They are having a ceremony to ask for mercy from the Water Goddess!

Our Lady of Perpetual Songkran?

[serenitynow]

QUOTE

"Building of dykes and drainage: Existing dykes can cope with flood water at a level of 2.5 metres, and water flow of 3,000-3,500 cubic metres per second, with drainage capacity of 60 millimetres per hour.

Dykes

In eastern Bangkok:

A total of 72 kilometres of dykes have been built at royal initiative

Along the Chao Phraya River and the Bangkok Noi and Maha Sawas canals:

To contain water from the North and rising seawater, 75.8km have been built of a planned 77km, with the remaining sections expected to be completed this year. The dykes can contain flood water at a level of 2.5 metres, while the unfinished sections will do so at 2-2.5 metres.

Drainage operations:

More sewers and dredging of canals; pumping stations have been readied

Mobile-pumping units (1,152 operational)

Giant tunnels

21 catchment areas

95 BEST units comprising 700 officials are on standby

Coordination centre is active.

End QUOTE.

if this is all in place and fully operational, then WHY would someone think that a 1,000 boats could be better then this? Something does not add up......

Well, first of all do you think that even one of those 700 officials is a hydrologist? Or might it be more likely they have a family affiliation that got them a secure government job and they don't know the first thing about meteorology, hydrology, hydrodynamics or topography. They probably don't even go to work if its raining outside.

[PoorSucker]

I've been reading about this, but is this idea even feasible? Will it actually speed up the outflow or will it just create dangerous waves that crash against the river bank?

It sounds like a pilot telling a bunch of passengers about to crash to start flapping their arms.

Is this the same guy that claimed global warming will not affect Thailand because Thailand is so long way from the north and south pole?

Edited October 8, 2011 by PoorSucker

[Credo]

All doable, just a bit of planning, consistency, some money, political will to make difficult decisions, etc., etc.

It's not often you find all those conditions at the same time.

[serenitynow]

This is the land contour from north of Auttaya South to the bay. A flood control channel although expensive would protect all of the communities south of it's inlet if sized appropriately. The slope shows it would be a very simple construction project. It would not need to be a concrete structure. The first southern 75 km stretch would protect Bangkok and the rest of the northerly section would protect Auttaya. If they were serious about flood control they have to invest in more than the gasoline for motorboat taxis. The path of the channel could be adjusted to minimize impact on the public and as it would remain dry during the major portion of the year could be crossed in many places without bridges. The laminar flow would transport water very quickly from the north to the bay. The extreme northern inlet could be located close to Pa Mok and the inlet south could be located close to Ratchakham.

Utilizing a straight path as you show will be much more efficient flowing water than the meandering river, which normally would adjust itself if the banks didn't constrain it.

Since there is such a slight elevation change and tidal levels acting against the flow, planning for the 100, 300 or 500 year flood volume would make a bypass fairly wide.

Bangkok is in a precarious locale, like the delta of Bangladesh.

A new or full moon tidal flow will make more difference both positive and negative than putting boats on the river.

Even wind direction will make more difference than putting boats in the river.

[skippybangkok]

Hey, they believed the tablets and salary hikes for the election..... this is a synch

[Dag]

Even wind direction will make more difference than putting boats in the river.

Headlines tomorrow.....'1000 FANS FOR THE CHAO PHRAYA'..........then the next day.........'50 people eletrocuted on chao phraya'

[gosompoi]

why not add 100,000 kicking swimmers to boost the effect for 300 baht a day.

Edited October 8, 2011 by gosompoi

[unanimosity]

This belongs as an April fools. The wake alone would cause more flooding over the river banks

Boats displace water so having 1,000 will actually raise the water level equal to the total displacement of all the boats. Drop one ice cube into a glass of water to view the effect.

Now, the only thing remotely connected to the reality of potentially having some marginal affect would be to tether all the boats at bridges so that they are anchored stationary, bows facing upstream, then fire up the engines in an effort to increase the flow rate and help move water downstream slightly faster.

What's that you say? Oh, they plan to use sailboats. Never mind.

[rubl]

Boats displace water so having 1,000 will actually raise the water level equal to the total displacement of all the boats. Drop one ice cube into a glass of water to view the effect.

Now, the only thing remotely connected to the reality of potentially having some marginal affect would be to tether all the boats at bridges so that they are anchored stationary, bows facing upstream, then fire up the engines in an effort to increase the flow rate and help move water downstream slightly faster.

What's that you say? Oh, they plan to use sailboats. Never mind.

Contemplate the possibility that all those boats are already in the water at this very moment

[BillyBobThai]

Let's see what I have learned this week about flood control.

Take rice barges and fill them with water and let them carry their load out to sea.

Use boat props to speed the flow south to open waters.

Have monks pray to the water goddess to push this flood away.

Somebody is sure to win a Nobel prize for taking such creative action.

If I lived in Bangkok, I would be taking a vacation to higher ground for the next week or so.

Edited October 8, 2011 by BillyBobThai

[daiwill60]

Can't help thinking how much this idea reminds me of the joke about the three scientists, who decided to see what would happen to an elephant if they corked its arse for a month and how far the result would go when they took it out. So one month later when the big day arrives the scientists position themselves 1 at 300 mtrs away, the next at 200 mtrs away and the last scientist at 100mtrs away. Now then, these scientists were clever and they had trained a monkey to pull out the cork. So everyone positioned the cork is pulled and crap flies everywhere, the 300 mtr chap is up to his waste, the 200mtr chap is up to his chest and the 100 mtr scientist is over his head and laughing his nuts off. Why are you laughing when you are covered in so much <deleted> they ask ' You should have seen the monkey trying to push the cork back in' he replied.

I really dunno why this BKK situation reminds me of this joke, maybe the boats are the monkeys in the bkk joke.

Edited October 8, 2011 by daiwill60

[rubl]

All doable, just a bit of planning, consistency, some money, political will to make difficult decisions, etc., etc.

It's not often you find all those conditions at the same time.

In the Netherlands the 'second Delta program' has been passed to the parliament. It details safeguarding current and future generations against water threat and provisioning potent (sweet?) water. Financing has been secured till 2020 and till 2028 most has been covered. Of course in the Netherlands we don't have a need to spent up to THB 410 billion in five months on a dubious rice price pledging scheme

In Dutch for those who like to check

http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/deltaprogramma/nieuws/2011/09/20/tweede-deltaprogramma-aan-de-kamer-aangeboden.html

(The Delta Program provides further details on how the Delta Law is/will be implemented)

Edited October 8, 2011 by rubl

[kurnell]

Perhaps a better idea would be for the 1,000 boats to carry dozens of people with umbrellas so that the water won't fall into the river, thus decreasing the water levels. Now that is just brilliant.

[WarpSpeed]

This is the land contour from north of Auttaya South to the bay. A flood control channel although expensive would protect all of the communities south of it's inlet if sized appropriately. The slope shows it would be a very simple construction project. It would not need to be a concrete structure. The first southern 75 km stretch would protect Bangkok and the rest of the northerly section would protect Auttaya. If they were serious about flood control they have to invest in more than the gasoline for motorboat taxis. The path of the channel could be adjusted to minimize impact on the public and as it would remain dry during the major portion of the year could be crossed in many places without bridges. The laminar flow would transport water very quickly from the north to the bay. The extreme northern inlet could be located close to Pa Mok and the inlet south could be located close to Ratchakham.

So what would you say is the degree of difference between the laminar flow of the Chaophraya and the mooted flood control channel and how much difference would that actually make, do you reckon?

Meandering rivers have chaotic flow where flood channels should result in laminar flows. Big difference in how energy is expended and the overall speed of the volume of water. I have given you enough to go on to Google the differences for yourself as I can give you no specifics.

Yep that would help the flow considerably especially if they added REAL pumping stations.. It need not be concrete but should have rock banks to prevent erosion, I've noticed there are several rivers here in Bangkok that have natural banks and roads running next to them one in particular has a drainage klong on one side and a wide flowing river on the other and they are constantly rebuilding the roads and the river bank as the flowing river erodes the bank below water level.

The fact that the drainage klong is only a few meters from the flowing river adds even more erosion as the water is leeching underneath between the 2. After only a year or 2 of erosion the road begins to get that washboard effect again and the river banks are flattening out, using large rocks to support the river bank would economically curb this process and pay for itself with years of maintenance free service from the road and the river bank....

Depth, width and bottom inconsistency create resistance to flow of which all have extreme effects on the rate of a rivers flow.. Done right and they could even install low flow, electric generating turbines to make good use of the additional water flow in the season without adversely effecting the intended purpose of faster water evacuation.

I'll tell you something else, this would give those poor folks in the line of these floods far more to like the government for then tax refunds on new cars or tablet computers all of which may end up underwater the next rainy season..

[WarpSpeed]

Let's see what I have learned this week about flood control.

Take rice barges and fill them with water and let them carry their load out to sea.

Use boat props to speed the flow south to open waters.

Have monks pray to the water goddess to push this flood away.

Somebody is sure to win a Nobel prize for taking such creative action.

If I lived in Bangkok, I would be taking a vacation to higher ground for the next week or so.

I didn't hear about filling rice barges with water, what post was that in ?