1,000 Boats To Push Flood Waters From Chao Phraya River

[cloudhopper]

Hey Max here's a much easier problem for you before you get too deep into your calculations -

Suck some water out of a river at some arbitrary upstream point then pump it in a high pressure pipe along the bank to some arbitrary point downstream and dump it back into the river.

]Do think the overall river flow will increase?

[EyesWideOpen]

Ok .......go to one end of an Olympic sized swimming pool. Lean down, and execute one paddle stroke with your hand in the water. There will be some turbulence and water movement directly behind your hand. At the other end of the pool the net effect of water movement will be...............zero.

[hyperdimension]

In reality what we have down there is something in between "it doesn't work scenario" and "100% sure it is going to work scenario".

Regarding your possiblility "it doesn't work scenario", you need to split it into two possibilities: "it won't make a difference" and "it is making things worse".

I think if the river is flowing fast, the hulls of the boats, depending on their shape, would slow the flow, negating whatever minor propulsion the propellors contribute.

[MaxYakov]

Hey Max here's a much easier problem for you before you get too deep into your calculations -

Suck some water out of a river at some arbitrary upstream point then pump it in a high pressure pipe along the bank to some arbitrary point downstream and dump it back into the river.

]Do think the overall river flow will increase?

My standard form questionnaire for off-topic (and typically silly) questions ( for the math-challenged, no calculations required - not even 1 + 1 = x ):

Tell you what, why don't you do something useful? Why don't you take some questions and run them over to the river to see and see what kind of answers you get from the Minister's 'water diversion' boat operators:

1) Engine specs.: how many horsepower, type, etc.

2) Nominal engine RPM

3) How many operating hours/day at that RPM

4) Operating hours/day at other RPMs

5) Fuel consumption

6) Propeller diameter/type

7) Hull displacement

8) How obtains fuel, how reimbursed for fuel

9) How operator feels about the project and any particular problems they've had

10) Anything else you can think of that might tells us <deleted> is going on with them.

You know, trivial questions like that. You should be familiar with those by now, doncha think?

In the likely turn-down of this opportunity by cloudhopper, is there anyone else willing to volunteer?

[MaxYakov]

In reality what we have down there is something in between "it doesn't work scenario" and "100% sure it is going to work scenario".

Regarding your possiblility "it doesn't work scenario", you need to split it into two possibilities: "it won't make a difference" and "it is making things worse".

I think if the river is flowing fast, the hulls of the boats, depending on their shape, would slow the flow, negating whatever minor propulsion the propellors contribute.

Good point. Why don't you run the numbers for us for total water force on the hull? We could deduct that from the boat's (minor?) propulsion contribution. BTW I'm looking for a Chao Phraya current velocity profile, in case you run across one while 'running the numbers'. Maybe the Minister can give you the one they have as a loaner.

[cloudhopper]

Tell you what, why don't you do something useful?

Now now Max I bet a few lights got switched on out there. After all, only a binary answer is required.

[MaxYakov]

Ok .......go to one end of an Olympic sized swimming pool. Lean down, and execute one paddle stroke with your hand in the water. There will be some turbulence and water movement directly behind your hand. At the other end of the pool the net effect of water movement will be...............zero.

Yes. Zero does come to mind after reading this.

[MaxYakov]

Tell you what, why don't you do something useful?

Now now Max I bet a few lights got switched on out there. After all, only a binary answer is required.

Back from the Minister's pumping fleet already? That was fast!

I'd have to run the numbers ... Oops ... thoughtfully, you didn't provide any.

Did you mention something about a 'pipe'?

[cloudhopper]

Tell you what, why don't you do something useful?

Now now Max I bet a few lights got switched on out there. After all, only a binary answer is required.

Back from the Minister's pumping fleet already? That was fast!

I'd have to run the numbers ... Oops ... thoughtfully, you didn't provide any.

Did you mention something about a 'pipe'?

Feel free to use any quantities and assumptions you wish Max if it aids you in reaching the answer, which remains binary.

[damo]

Without reading all 38 of the previous pages and hoping not to churn the same arguments....

Regardless of wether the boat is powered by propellor or jet, when power is applied to either drive, the drive will propel water behind the boat in order to defeat inertia and move the boat.

If a boat is in the river and the flow in the river is 10 km/h and the boat is stationary the drive is propelling the boat at 10 km/h yet not moving. Put the same boat on a stationary waterway and restrain the boat at 0 km/h and then attempt to propel the boat to 10 km/h. Result is the water flow from the drive moving water away from the stern of the boat at 10 km/h.

my solution is, take the boats to the mouth of the waterway, anchor the boats from the stern, power on until the city has been saved.

And yes I have been drinking.

Damo.

[BabySun]

Ok .......go to one end of an Olympic sized swimming pool. Lean down, and execute one paddle stroke with your hand in the water. There will be some turbulence and water movement directly behind your hand. At the other end of the pool the net effect of water movement will be...............zero.

Do you want to practice "butterfly effect"?

Few days ago i was in olympic size waterpool - swimming;at the begining I was almost alone(after rain) - water was like mirror,it was very easy and nice to glide in water.

The school of divers arrived taking half of pool ,24 of them.They were swimming in two loops up and down creating strong currents and waves,which I could feel by my body - the best sensor.

And swimming was difficult,I'd got tired fast.

In another post I asked here to boil water in juice blender.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Actually no. It is not a flat body. Flat water body hasn't move. It moves because the is a small pressure gradient between upstream and the downstream. You can take any elevation of the flooded area. You will definitely find it is higher that the sea level. Otherwise the water tastes salty.

Personally I want to thank ResX for his input. If one takes a proper overall multi-threaded perspective one can judge for oneself. ResX, I think I understand. Thanks for your astute input!

[KeyserSoze01]

And the crew continues to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic as she slips quietly beneath the waves.

Even if the propulsion from a 1000 boats DID effect the water speed down river, it would be much like lighting a match in a hurricane. Too little, too late when you calculate the actual volume of water displaced by propulsion and factor in the millions of cubic meters of water, by volume, that is flowing down the Chao Phraya.

Edited October 24, 2011 by KeyserSoze01

[ResX]

And the crew continues to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic as she slips quietly beneath the waves.

Even if the propulsion from a 1000 boats DID effect the water speed down river, it would be much like lighting a match in a hurricane. Too little, too late when you calculate the actual volume of water displaced by propulsion and factor in the millions of cubic meters of water, by volume, that is flowing down the Chao Phraya.

I hope they didn't think to change the entire flow rate of the CP river. The right objective and make more senses, to me, is they have to work on a few flood plains that that can change the course of event significantly.

Says you have one typical flood plain 25km2, with the average deep 2 m. You know 50 million cubic meter of "stubborn water" resides there. If "free surface flow equation" is allowed to dominate the event this "stubborn water" will leave the flood plain when the incoming flood flow to the flood plain is reduced. It may take months then. If you put energy to this "stubborn water", the law of physics that dominates the event may nor longer limited to the physics of free surface flow. You can reduce the volume of "stubborn water " by says 25million cubic meter in two week. As a result, the flood level will go down by 1m. Don't hope for a miracle. There will be no drastic "success" as many of us here wanted to see.

Edited October 25, 2011 by ResX

[MaxYakov]

And the crew continues to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic as she slips quietly beneath the waves.

Even if the propulsion from a 1000 boats DID effect the water speed down river, it would be much like lighting a match in a hurricane. Too little, too late when you calculate the actual volume of water displaced by propulsion and factor in the millions of cubic meters of water, by volume, that is flowing down the Chao Phraya.

I hope they didn't think to change the entire flow rate of the CP river. The right objective and make more senses, to me, is they have to work on a few flood plains that that can change the course of event significantly.

Says you have one typical flood plain 25km2, with the average deep 2 m. You know 50 million cubic meter of "stubborn water" resides there. If "free surface flow equation" is allowed to dominate the event this "stubborn water" will leave the flood plain when the incoming flood flow to the flood plain is reduced. It may take months then. If you put energy to this "stubborn water", the law of physics that dominates the event may nor longer limited to the physics of free surface flow. You can reduce the volume of "stubborn water " by says 25million cubic meter in two week. As a result, the flood level will go down by 1m. Don't hope for a miracle. There will be no drastic "success" as many of us here wanted to see.

This Time World Article says that 10 Billion cubic meters of water are threatening Bangkok, much of it spread across rice fields:

Seasonal monsoons came six weeks early and have lasted longer than usual, filling reservoirs, dams and fields with 30 percent more rainfall than average. At the same time, the government kept too much water in dams over the summer in a bid to save water for rice cultivation, Plodprasop said. Overall, about 700 billion cubic feet (20 billion cubic meters) of rainfall has drenched Thailand over the last several months, Plodprasop said. About half of that has already drained into the sea, leaving about 350 billion cubic feet (10 billion cubic meters) of water threatening Bangkok, much of it spread across rice fields in Thailand's central plains.

So if we take Resx's 50 x 10⁶ m³ flood plain example and compare it with the article's

10 x 10⁹ m³ remaining water to drain to sea:

10 x 10⁹ m³ / 50 x 10⁶ m³ = .2 x 10³ m³ = 200

That would be 200 times as much water as ResX's flood plain example.

If many of us wanted to see a "drastic success" in this "here", I must have entirely missed all of them.

Just trying to put a realistic perspective on Resx's example. However, the article quotes Minister Plodprasop, so who knows where the truth lies.

Edited October 25, 2011 by MaxYakov

[MaxYakov]

Ok .......go to one end of an Olympic sized swimming pool. Lean down, and execute one paddle stroke with your hand in the water. There will be some turbulence and water movement directly behind your hand. At the other end of the pool the net effect of water movement will be...............zero.

Do you want to practice "butterfly effect"?

Few days ago i was in olympic size waterpool - swimming;at the begining I was almost alone(after rain) - water was like mirror,it was very easy and nice to glide in water.

The school of divers arrived taking half of pool ,24 of them.They were swimming in two loops up and down creating strong currents and waves,which I could feel by my body - the best sensor.

And swimming was difficult,I'd got tired fast.

In another post I asked here to boil water in juice blender.

Butterfly effect? Good one! (or should I say two?)

So ... should Minister Plodprasop have thousands of strong swimmers tethered in the Chao Phraya, I can't help wondering.

Did we have any juice blender meltdowns? I recall that one poster did report sauce-damaging heat from high-speed blenders.

Edited October 25, 2011 by MaxYakov

[MaxYakov]

The eleven top ways you can tell that your country may be having flooding issues:

11) Your dog has started dog paddling and you haven't seen him do that in years

10) Parking on the local Expressway is getting increasingly scarce

9) Your couch just floated out through the front door

8) Water volumes are being stated in scientific notation

7) Bags on the sidewalk do not contain rice

6) You were almost electrocuted by your ATM machine

5) The US Marines are importing sandbags (empty) in C-130s

4) The Prime Minister has started a fashion trend by wearing wading boots

3) Local TV programming has become more water-logged than usual.

2) A foreign water storage management "expert" is kibitzing on ThaiVisa Forums

1) The Minister of Science and Tech is using boats to increase the local river's flow rate

Max Yakov

Edited October 25, 2011 by MaxYakov

[Crushdepth]

The eleven top ways you can tell that your country may be having flooding issues:

11) Your dog has started dog paddling and you haven't seen him do that in years

10) Parking on the local Expressway is getting increasingly scarce

9) Your couch just floated out through the front door

8) Water volumes are being stated in scientific notation

7) Bags on the sidewalk do not contain rice

6) You were almost electrocuted by your ATM machine

5) The US Marines are importing sandbags (empty) in C-130s

4) The Prime Minister has started a fashion trend by wearing wading boots

3) Local TV programming has become more water-logged than usual.

2) A foreign water storage management "expert" is kibitzing on ThaiVisa Forums

1) The Minister of Science and Tech is using boats to increase the local river's flow rate

Max Yakov

12: Building a bamboo raft suddenly seems like a good idea.

[ResX]

And the crew continues to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic as she slips quietly beneath the waves.

Even if the propulsion from a 1000 boats DID effect the water speed down river, it would be much like lighting a match in a hurricane. Too little, too late when you calculate the actual volume of water displaced by propulsion and factor in the millions of cubic meters of water, by volume, that is flowing down the Chao Phraya.

I hope they didn't think to change the entire flow rate of the CP river. The right objective and make more senses, to me, is they have to work on a few flood plains that that can change the course of event significantly.

Says you have one typical flood plain 25km2, with the average deep 2 m. You know 50 million cubic meter of "stubborn water" resides there. If "free surface flow equation" is allowed to dominate the event this "stubborn water" will leave the flood plain when the incoming flood flow to the flood plain is reduced. It may take months then. If you put energy to this "stubborn water", the law of physics that dominates the event may nor longer limited to the physics of free surface flow. You can reduce the volume of "stubborn water " by says 25million cubic meter in two week. As a result, the flood level will go down by 1m. Don't hope for a miracle. There will be no drastic "success" as many of us here wanted to see.

This Time World Article says that 10 Billion cubic meters of water are threatening Bangkok, much of it spread across rice fields:

Seasonal monsoons came six weeks early and have lasted longer than usual, filling reservoirs, dams and fields with 30 percent more rainfall than average. At the same time, the government kept too much water in dams over the summer in a bid to save water for rice cultivation, Plodprasop said. Overall, about 700 billion cubic feet (20 billion cubic meters) of rainfall has drenched Thailand over the last several months, Plodprasop said. About half of that has already drained into the sea, leaving about 350 billion cubic feet (10 billion cubic meters) of water threatening Bangkok, much of it spread across rice fields in Thailand's central plains.

So if we take Resx's 50 x 10⁶ m³ flood plain example and compare it with the article's

10 x 10⁹ m³ remaining water to drain to sea:

10 x 10⁹ m³ / 50 x 10⁶ m³ = .2 x 10³ m³ = 200

That would be 200 times as much water as ResX's flood plain example.

If many of us wanted to see a "drastic success" in this "here", I must have entirely missed all of them.

Just trying to put a realistic perspective on Resx's example. However, the article quotes Minister Plodprasop, so who knows where the truth lies.

Let me check the fact first. 10billion cubic meter of water. I have seen this amount of raw water myself. I have seen up to slightly less than 15billion cubic meter. If the average dept of water is 2m then you have the total area will be inundated is as big as 5000km2. Or flood made reservoir 10 X 500km. That is very big indeed.

You might have 300 flood plains there. I just highlighted one of them. As long as I can read the posts that were composed in Bangkok, I know that there are at least two flood plains right there.

There is no miracle solution as I told you. You can make change the course of event by identifying which are the most critical flood plains that contributed significantly towards inundated areas. If you allow free surface flow physics to dominate then let me estimate how long it will take to reach the normal CP river flow, let us see-Single flood plain model.

Q=cLH^(3/2)

Q= 4800m3/s

H= 2m

That makes cL =1700. Assuming the average water level of CH river is 1m. Then the normal discharge we are looking for is, says 1700m3/s. Therefore effective average that free surface flow will be about. 3,250m3/s (averaged the two). Then if you want to drain out 10billion m3 flood water with average discharge of 3,250m3/s then it will take 35 days then. It can be argued that I have to do time series simulation to get more accurate prediction. I have done this before for much smaller flood water (150million cubic meter). Obviously, I'm not going to do this just for a sake of our discussion. Therefore. I think I tend to under estimate the number of days required.

Based on a single flood plain scenario, let us see how much 1000boats can change the course of event. Let us make and assumption that each boat can push 1m3 of water every second if it is moored. Then for 1000 boats, it becomes 1000m3/s. Let us moor all the 1000boats at the outlet of a 10billion cubic meter flood plain. The next question is how long you can drain 10billion cubic meter of wate? Do you think you can't change the out going from the flood plain? I will be right back.

Note: A single flood plain model is the simplest for that 1000boats can make a significant impact. See my previous post about pressure gradient that a hydro turbine discharge can do to a reservoir with surface area 300km2.

.

Edited October 25, 2011 by ResX

[ResX]

So if we take Resx's 50 x 10⁶ m³ flood plain example and compare it with the article's

10 x 10⁹ m³ remaining water to drain to sea:

10 x 10⁹ m³ / 50 x 10⁶ m³ = .2 x 10³ m³ = 200

That would be 200 times as much water as ResX's flood plain example.

If many of us wanted to see a "drastic success" in this "here", I must have entirely missed all of them.

Just trying to put a realistic perspective on Resx's example. However, the article quotes Minister Plodprasop, so who knows where the truth lies.

Let me check the fact first. 10billion cubic meter of water. I have seen this amount of raw water myself. I have seen up to slightly less than 15billion cubic meter. If the average dept of water is 2m then you have the total area will be inundated is as big as 5000km2. Or flood made reservoir 10 X 500km. That is very big indeed.

You might have 300 flood plains there. I just highlighted one of them. As long as I can read the posts that were composed in Bangkok, I know that there are at least two flood plains right there.

There is no miracle solution as I told you. You can make change the course of event by identifying which are the most critical flood plains that contributed significantly towards inundated areas. If you allow free surface flow physics to dominate then let me estimate how long it will take to reach the normal CP river flow, let us see-Single flood plain model.

Q=cLH^(3/2)

Q= 4800m3/s

H= 2m

That makes cL =1700. Assuming the average water level of CH river is 1m. Then the normal discharge we are looking for is, says 1700m3/s. Therefore effective average that free surface flow will be about. 3,250m3/s (averaged the two). Then if you want to drain out 10billion m3 flood water with average discharge of 3,250m3/s then it will take 35 days then. It can be argued that I have to do time series simulation to get more accurate prediction. I have done this before for much smaller flood water (150million cubic meter). Obviously, I'm not going to do this just for a sake of our discussion. Therefore. I think I tend to under estimate the number of days required.

Based on a single flood plain scenario, let us see how much 1000boats can change the course of event. Let us make and assumption that each boat can push 1m3 of water every second if it is moored. Then for 1000 boats, it becomes 1000m3/s. Let us moor all the 1000boats at the outlet of a 10billion cubic meter flood plain. The next question is how long you can drain 10billion cubic meter of wate? Do you think you can't change the out going from the flood plain? I will be right back.

Note: A single flood plain model is the simplest for that 1000boats can make a significant impact. See my previous post about pressure gradient that a hydro turbine discharge can do to a reservoir with surface area 300km2.

Let me continue. The average outgoing flow from the flood with 1000 boats moored at the outlet becomes:

Q out= (1700+ 4800)/2+1000=4,250m3/s

Therefore, time taken to drain 10billion cubic meter of flood water becomes 27days. Obviously we are assuming the incoming flood flow is zero. Therefore we can only use the offset between two periods, i.e. 8days. 1000 moored boats at the outlet can bring the flood plain water level of 10 billion cubic meter by 8 days faster when compared to no boat scenario. Again, I know it is mathematically & scientifically wrong to calculate this way. The actual calculation could be more complex than this. But, as I told you, it still can provide meaningful estimate.

As long as the lowest point f the flood plain is still above sea level even by 1mm, this calculation provides good estimate (100% is going to work scenario). If the flood plain is at the same level as the sea level then time taken to drain the 10billion cubic meter of flood water, sadly speaking is infinite (Doesn't work scenario) ...

[ResX]

Let me check the fact first. 10billion cubic meter of water. I have seen this amount of raw water myself. I have seen up to slightly less than 15billion cubic meter. If the average dept of water is 2m then you have the total area will be inundated is as big as 5000km2. Or flood made reservoir 10 X 500km. That is very big indeed.

You might have 300 flood plains there. I just highlighted one of them. As long as I can read the posts that were composed in Bangkok, I know that there are at least two flood plains right there.

There is no miracle solution as I told you. You can make change the course of event by identifying which are the most critical flood plains that contributed significantly towards inundated areas. If you allow free surface flow physics to dominate then let me estimate how long it will take to reach the normal CP river flow, let us see-Single flood plain model.

Q=cLH^(3/2)

Q= 4800m3/s

H= 2m

That makes cL =1700. Assuming the average water level of CH river is 1m. Then the normal discharge we are looking for is, says 1700m3/s. Therefore effective average that free surface flow will be about. 3,250m3/s (averaged the two). Then if you want to drain out 10billion m3 flood water with average discharge of 3,250m3/s then it will take 35 days then. It can be argued that I have to do time series simulation to get more accurate prediction. I have done this before for much smaller flood water (150million cubic meter). Obviously, I'm not going to do this just for a sake of our discussion. Therefore. I think I tend to under estimate the number of days required.

Based on a single flood plain scenario, let us see how much 1000boats can change the course of event. Let us make and assumption that each boat can push 1m3 of water every second if it is moored. Then for 1000 boats, it becomes 1000m3/s. Let us moor all the 1000boats at the outlet of a 10billion cubic meter flood plain. The next question is how long you can drain 10billion cubic meter of wate? Do you think you can't change the out going from the flood plain? I will be right back.

Note: A single flood plain model is the simplest for that 1000boats can make a significant impact. See my previous post about pressure gradient that a hydro turbine discharge can do to a reservoir with surface area 300km2.

Let me continue. The average outgoing flow from the flood with 1000 boats moored at the outlet becomes:

Q out= (1700+ 4800)/2+1000=4,250m3/s

Therefore, time taken to drain 10billion cubic meter of flood water becomes 27days. Obviously we are assuming the incoming flood flow is zero. Therefore we can only use the offset between two periods, i.e. 8days. 1000 moored boats at the outlet can bring the flood plain water level of 10 billion cubic meter by 8 days faster when compared to no boat scenario. Again, I know it is mathematically & scientifically wrong to calculate this way. The actual calculation could be more complex than this. But, as I told you, it still can provide meaningful estimate.

As long as the lowest point f the flood plain is still above sea level even by 1mm, this calculation provides good estimate (100% is going to work scenario). If the flood plain is at the same level as the sea level then time taken to drain the 10billion cubic meter of flood water, sadly speaking is infinite (Doesn't work scenario) ...

[BabySun]

Ok .......go to one end of an Olympic sized swimming pool. Lean down, and execute one paddle stroke with your hand in the water. There will be some turbulence and water movement directly behind your hand. At the other end of the pool the net effect of water movement will be...............zero.

Do you want to practice "butterfly effect"?

Few days ago i was in olympic size waterpool - swimming;at the begining I was almost alone(after rain) - water was like mirror,it was very easy and nice to glide in water.

The school of divers arrived taking half of pool ,24 of them.They were swimming in two loops up and down creating strong currents and waves,which I could feel by my body - the best sensor.

And swimming was difficult,I'd got tired fast.

In another post I asked here to boil water in juice blender.

Butterfly effect? Good one! (or should I say two?)

So ... should Minister Plodprasop have thousands of strong swimmers tethered in the Chao Phraya, I can't help wondering.

Did we have any juice blender meltdowns? I recall that one poster did report sauce-damaging heat from high-speed blenders.

My point was - energy doesnt disapear - flap of hand or 1000 boats,no difference.

You have good memory about blender or did you try yourself?

Water is different substance then sauce,sauce is not even liquid.(something between solid state and liquid)

I said - try to boil water in juice blender.- - not possible.

In near future - after flood,how we remove water from flooded areas?

In civilized world - people use mechanical pumps to do it faster,Thai farmers know it and use them in their fields.Poles found way to convert motor boats into pumps - you had brought that information,could you give us its source?

Thousands of boats around BKK,they could use them with good effect.

Edited October 25, 2011 by BabySun

[ResX]

I hope they didn't think to change the entire flow rate of the CP river. The right objective and make more senses, to me, is they have to work on a few flood plains that that can change the course of event significantly.

Says you have one typical flood plain 25km2, with the average deep 2 m. You know 50 million cubic meter of "stubborn water" resides there. If "free surface flow equation" is allowed to dominate the event this "stubborn water" will leave the flood plain when the incoming flood flow to the flood plain is reduced. It may take months then. If you put energy to this "stubborn water", the law of physics that dominates the event may nor longer limited to the physics of free surface flow. You can reduce the volume of "stubborn water " by says 25million cubic meter in two week. As a result, the flood level will go down by 1m. Don't hope for a miracle. There will be no drastic "success" as many of us here wanted to see.

This Time World Article says that 10 Billion cubic meters of water are threatening Bangkok, much of it spread across rice fields:

Seasonal monsoons came six weeks early and have lasted longer than usual, filling reservoirs, dams and fields with 30 percent more rainfall than average. At the same time, the government kept too much water in dams over the summer in a bid to save water for rice cultivation, Plodprasop said. Overall, about 700 billion cubic feet (20 billion cubic meters) of rainfall has drenched Thailand over the last several months, Plodprasop said. About half of that has already drained into the sea, leaving about 350 billion cubic feet (10 billion cubic meters) of water threatening Bangkok, much of it spread across rice fields in Thailand's central plains.

So if we take Resx's 50 x 10⁶ m³ flood plain example and compare it with the article's

10 x 10⁹ m³ remaining water to drain to sea:

10 x 10⁹ m³ / 50 x 10⁶ m³ = .2 x 10³ m³ = 200

That would be 200 times as much water as ResX's flood plain example.

If many of us wanted to see a "drastic success" in this "here", I must have entirely missed all of them.

Just trying to put a realistic perspective on Resx's example. However, the article quotes Minister Plodprasop, so who knows where the truth lies.

Ok. Let's take a trip to else where. Just for a while. A 20billion cubic meter of water that falls in CH river catchment area within two weeks. Do you think it is supposed to be the unexpected flood intensity at all? Based on the information that I have from internet about CH ricer catchment, I don't think so. Based on my experienced of dealing with power generation & flood control reservoirs I will expect up to 30billion cubic meter of water that falls in 7 days for CH river catchment. I would say the Average Recurrence Interval (ARI) for have to flood intensity of 30billion cubic meter in 7 days will be around not less than 1 in 50 years. (50-year ARI). Which is still realistic. I don't know how Thailand evaluate flood risk. Using my methodology and the info I got from internet, this will be flood risk assessment for CH river.

Yes. I have yet proven my assertion. I will be right back soon. Take care.

Edited October 25, 2011 by ResX

[FOODLOVER]

Ok .......go to one end of an Olympic sized swimming pool. Lean down, and execute one paddle stroke with your hand in the water. There will be some turbulence and water movement directly behind your hand. At the other end of the pool the net effect of water movement will be...............zero.

Do you want to practice "butterfly effect"?

Few days ago i was in olympic size waterpool - swimming;at the begining I was almost alone(after rain) - water was like mirror,it was very easy and nice to glide in water.

The school of divers arrived taking half of pool ,24 of them.They were swimming in two loops up and down creating strong currents and waves,which I could feel by my body - the best sensor.

And swimming was difficult,I'd got tired fast.

In another post I asked here to boil water in juice blender.

Butterfly effect? Good one! (or should I say two?)

So ... should Minister Plodprasop have thousands of strong swimmers tethered in the Chao Phraya, I can't help wondering.

Did we have any juice blender meltdowns? I recall that one poster did report sauce-damaging heat from high-speed blenders.

My point was - energy doesnt disapear - flap of hand or 1000 boats,no difference.

You have good memory about blender or did you try yourself?

Water is different substance then sauce,sauce is not even liquid.(something between solid state and liquid)

I said - try to boil water in juice blender.- - not possible.

In near future - after flood,how we remove water from flooded areas?

In civilized world - people use mechanical pumps to do it faster,Thai farmers know it and use them in their fields.Poles found way to convert motor boats into pumps - you had brought that information,could you give us its source?

Thousands of boats around BKK,they could use them with good effect.

"Sauce damaging heat from sauce" - guilty

"Water is different substance then sauce,sauce is not even liquid".

I have to say that this is incorrect. Sauce can come in many different forms. Such as a crema which can be blown through a nitrous oxcide canister to give it an airy , frothy appearance or could be as thin as a veloute which would certainly be considered a liquid. A bechamel is much creamier and could easily break in an industrial high speed chefs blender( seperation of fat molecules due to the heat created). As for the pumps, well it is quite obvious that in absence of sufficient pumps that numerous turkey basters could remedy this situation..Boiling water in a blender takes 8-10 minutes in a quality chefs blender like vitamix. Great for soups as well.

[BabySun]

My point was - energy doesnt disapear - flap of hand or 1000 boats,no difference.

You have good memory about blender or did you try yourself?

Water is different substance then sauce,sauce is not even liquid.(something between solid state and liquid)

I said - try to boil water in juice blender.- - not possible.

In near future - after flood,how we remove water from flooded areas?

In civilized world - people use mechanical pumps to do it faster,Thai farmers know it and use them in their fields.Poles found way to convert motor boats into pumps - you had brought that information,could you give us its source?

Thousands of boats around BKK,they could use them with good effect.

"Sauce damaging heat from sauce" - guilty

"Water is different substance then sauce,sauce is not even liquid".

I have to say that this is incorrect. Sauce can come in many different forms. Such as a crema which can be blown through a nitrous oxcide canister to give it an airy , frothy appearance or could be as thin as a veloute which would certainly be considered a liquid. A bechamel is much creamier and could easily break in an industrial high speed chefs blender( seperation of fat molecules due to the heat created). As for the pumps, well it is quite obvious that in absence of sufficient pumps that numerous turkey basters could remedy this situation..Boiling water in a blender takes 8-10 minutes in a quality chefs blender like vitamix. Great for soups as well.

I did not know,that you can heat water in blender to the point of boiling.I tried with my own - impossible.I know very little about production of sauces.

Blender is designed with purpuse to create maximal friction in fluid.

What I wanted to show is,that water has very little friction between molecules and process of changing its kinetic energy into thermal energy is not rapid,but of course it happens.

In my example with swimmming pool - it takes quite a while to bring water to complete still after pool is deserted,but it will happen.And when it is still - you can observe the effect of hand flap.

So what will happen with water wave/kinetic energy? - heated it up little bit,vaporised water little bit..But when it is moving in one direction through shaped device (jet)- it is different story and it can reach,what about fountain in Geneva? - well over 100mtrs

Water pump100kW,which anybody can buy will send easy 1cubicmeter/second on 3meters up;this is enough to reach SiamBay through high wall channel,or it will stay in build for this purpose reservoir.You can change propeller in any boat to work in this way - so,you will have thousand pumps without any serious investment.

[MaxYakov]

What I wanted to show is,that water has very little friction between molecules and process of changing its kinetic energy into thermal energy is not rapid,but of course it happens.

In my example with swimmming pool - it takes quite a while to bring water to complete still after pool is deserted,but it will happen.And when it is still - you can observe the effect of hand flap.

So what will happen with water wave/kinetic energy? - heated it up little bit,vaporised water little bit..But when it is moving in one direction through shaped device (jet)- it is different story and it can reach,what about fountain in Geneva? - well over 100mtrs

Water pump100kW,which anybody can buy will send easy 1cubicmeter/second on 3meters up;this is enough to reach SiamBay through high wall channel,or it will stay in build for this purpose reservoir.You can change propeller in any boat to work in this way - so,you will have thousand pumps without any serious investment.

Yes ... without any "serious investment", except other people's money, of course. The main advantage I see with this so-called 'water diversion' project is that the capital investment had already been made in the boats and they did not have to be modified (as far as I know or could guess). They weren't exactly right for the job, but grab whatever looks like it has half a chance of working, I suppose. I wonder what kind calculations the did before committing.

Lifting water seems to be a bit off the course of this topic. How would the boats be modified to do that and why? Or is this a 'solution looking for a problem'?

I intend to reply to ResX's post about flood plain draining with boats. Weren't you the one that mentioned that high-cap pumps at BKK? The larger boats would have limited applicability to draining flood plains for a few good reasons. My calculations indicate that only 83 of the BKK pumps could drain ResX's flood plain in the same 27 days that ResX's 1000 @ 1 m³ /sec boats could do it in.

[ResX]

What I wanted to show is,that water has very little friction between molecules and process of changing its kinetic energy into thermal energy is not rapid,but of course it happens.

In my example with swimmming pool - it takes quite a while to bring water to complete still after pool is deserted,but it will happen.And when it is still - you can observe the effect of hand flap.

So what will happen with water wave/kinetic energy? - heated it up little bit,vaporised water little bit..But when it is moving in one direction through shaped device (jet)- it is different story and it can reach,what about fountain in Geneva? - well over 100mtrs

Water pump100kW,which anybody can buy will send easy 1cubicmeter/second on 3meters up;this is enough to reach SiamBay through high wall channel,or it will stay in build for this purpose reservoir.You can change propeller in any boat to work in this way - so,you will have thousand pumps without any serious investment.

Yes ... without any "serious investment", except other people's money, of course. The main advantage I see with this so-called 'water diversion' project is that the capital investment had already been made in the boats and they did not have to be modified (as far as I know or could guess). They weren't exactly right for the job, but grab whatever looks like it has half a chance of working, I suppose. I wonder what kind calculations the did before committing.

Lifting water seems to be a bit off the course of this topic. How would the boats be modified to do that and why? Or is this a 'solution looking for a problem'?

I intend to reply to ResX's post about flood plain draining with boats. Weren't you the one that mentioned that high-cap pumps at BKK? The larger boats would have limited applicability to draining flood plains for a few good reasons. My calculations indicate that only 83 of the BKK pumps could drain ResX's flood plain in the same 27 days that ResX's 1000 @ 1 m³ /sec boats could do it in.

If you have that pumps, the debate is over. It is going to work for a single and multiple flood plain systems very well. For multiple flood plain systems you have to coordinate the locations of those pumps. I'm very sure that putting logistic issues in perspective it is more difficult to put the pumps into locations rather than putting boats. As far as time constraint is concern.

[MaxYakov]

What I wanted to show is,that water has very little friction between molecules and process of changing its kinetic energy into thermal energy is not rapid,but of course it happens.

In my example with swimmming pool - it takes quite a while to bring water to complete still after pool is deserted,but it will happen.And when it is still - you can observe the effect of hand flap.

So what will happen with water wave/kinetic energy? - heated it up little bit,vaporised water little bit..But when it is moving in one direction through shaped device (jet)- it is different story and it can reach,what about fountain in Geneva? - well over 100mtrs

Water pump100kW,which anybody can buy will send easy 1cubicmeter/second on 3meters up;this is enough to reach SiamBay through high wall channel,or it will stay in build for this purpose reservoir.You can change propeller in any boat to work in this way - so,you will have thousand pumps without any serious investment.

Yes ... without any "serious investment", except other people's money, of course. The main advantage I see with this so-called 'water diversion' project is that the capital investment had already been made in the boats and they did not have to be modified (as far as I know or could guess). They weren't exactly right for the job, but grab whatever looks like it has half a chance of working, I suppose. I wonder what kind calculations the did before committing.

Lifting water seems to be a bit off the course of this topic. How would the boats be modified to do that and why? Or is this a 'solution looking for a problem'?

I intend to reply to ResX's post about flood plain draining with boats. Weren't you the one that mentioned that high-cap pumps at BKK? The larger boats would have limited applicability to draining flood plains for a few good reasons. My calculations indicate that only 83 of the BKK pumps could drain ResX's flood plain in the same 27 days that ResX's 1000 @ 1 m³ /sec boats could do it in.

If you have that pumps, the debate is over. It is going to work for a single and multiple flood plain systems very well. For multiple flood plain systems you have to coordinate the locations of those pumps. I'm very sure that putting logistic issues in perspective it is more difficult to put the pumps into locations rather than putting boats. As far as time constraint is concern.

Thanks ResX. Of course, there's no time now and I'm certainly not a flood plain draining expert. However, it seems to me a very shallow-draft, self-propelled (water jet?), self-powered, barge/pump would be better suited for flood plains. Especially as the water gets increasingly shallower. Perhaps the barges' pumps themselves could be used for propulsion as well as for accelerating water to simplify the design.

I would think something like this would have more utility, mobility and sustainability than boats that were not designed for shallow water operations and were not even designed to be pumping stations.

Edited October 26, 2011 by MaxYakov

[ResX]

What I wanted to show is,that water has very little friction between molecules and process of changing its kinetic energy into thermal energy is not rapid,but of course it happens.

In my example with swimmming pool - it takes quite a while to bring water to complete still after pool is deserted,but it will happen.And when it is still - you can observe the effect of hand flap.

So what will happen with water wave/kinetic energy? - heated it up little bit,vaporised water little bit..But when it is moving in one direction through shaped device (jet)- it is different story and it can reach,what about fountain in Geneva? - well over 100mtrs

Water pump100kW,which anybody can buy will send easy 1cubicmeter/second on 3meters up;this is enough to reach SiamBay through high wall channel,or it will stay in build for this purpose reservoir.You can change propeller in any boat to work in this way - so,you will have thousand pumps without any serious investment.

Yes ... without any "serious investment", except other people's money, of course. The main advantage I see with this so-called 'water diversion' project is that the capital investment had already been made in the boats and they did not have to be modified (as far as I know or could guess). They weren't exactly right for the job, but grab whatever looks like it has half a chance of working, I suppose. I wonder what kind calculations the did before committing.

Lifting water seems to be a bit off the course of this topic. How would the boats be modified to do that and why? Or is this a 'solution looking for a problem'?

I intend to reply to ResX's post about flood plain draining with boats. Weren't you the one that mentioned that high-cap pumps at BKK? The larger boats would have limited applicability to draining flood plains for a few good reasons. My calculations indicate that only 83 of the BKK pumps could drain ResX's flood plain in the same 27 days that ResX's 1000 @ 1 m³ /sec boats could do it in.

If you have that pumps, the debate is over. It is going to work for a single and multiple flood plain systems very well. For multiple flood plain systems you have to coordinate the locations of those pumps. I'm very sure that putting logistic issues in perspective it is more difficult to put the pumps into locations rather than putting boats. As far as time constraint is concern.

Thanks ResX. Of course, there's no time now and I'm certainly not a flood plain draining expert. However, it seems to me a very shallow-draft, self-propelled (water jet?), self-powered, barge/pump would be better suited for flood plains. Especially as the water gets increasingly shallower. Perhaps the barges' pumps themselves could be used for propulsion as well as for accelerating water to simplify the design.

I would think something like this would have more utility, mobility and sustainability than boats that were not designed for shallow water operations and were not even designed to be pumping stations.

Just to add a simple fact. Power required to to lift 1m3/s of water by 1m using a pump :

P = 0.85 X 1000 X 9.781 X1 X1 W

= 8.3kW

Actually it won't be that much. It will be even less owing the fact that we are not going to give any lift to flood water. Or the same power actually can move higher that 1m3/s of water if no lifting is involved. The main problem about pumping out water from flood plains is to coordinate the pumping operation, Note that we can't lay a 5km pipe to transport the water to the sea within short period of time. Without proper coordination we may end up transferring the flood from one flood plain to another. This scenario can happen by using the boats too....

[ResX]

Actually no. It is not a flat body. Flat water body hasn't move. It moves because the is a small pressure gradient between upstream and the downstream. You can take any elevation of the flooded area. You will definitely find it is higher that the sea level. Otherwise the water tastes salty.

Personally I want to thank ResX for his input. If one takes a proper overall multi-threaded perspective one can judge for oneself. ResX, I think I understand. Thanks for your astute input!

Your welcome mate.