Thailand Approves Minimum Wage Hike: Minister

[OzMick]

It would be nice to think that the B300 minimum wage would be extended to those conscript members of the military now working their butt off to alleviate this disaster. I believe current pay rate is about B4000/m, which has to make it the closest thing to slavery in the modern world.

And the good thing is it could be done now, no need to wait for economic recovery. It would be great for reconciliation and PTP's image, even if a few thousand red-shirts choke on their som tam when they hear about it.

It's probably not a realistic move now but in principle it's a good idea.However it could at least be partly achieved by re-organisation within the military including the dismissal of hundreds of superfluous senior staff officers.Thailand is one of the most over generalled armies in the world.The huge level of business interests, some legal some not, controlled by senior officers could also be used for better pay for lower ranks, and possibly equipment (rather than flowing into senior officers bank accounts).Obviously any such reorganisation would have to strip out any of the current businesses covering prostitution,drugs,gambling etc.

As to redshirts coughing into their som tam, I don't know what you are talking about (and I suspect you don't either).The rank and file of the Thai army are almost certainly a red shirt supporters majority.Why do you think there was so much care taken to use "loyal" troops to suppress the Bangkok demonstrators last year and equally to sideline ordinary army detachments? I'm sure most redshirt suporters would be delighted to see their brothers, relatives and friends in the military (which would cover most soldiers) get better wages - as would the country at large.

48% of the vote is not a majority, and they are PTP voters, not necessarily red-shirts. The conscription method is supposedly tamper proof, so why would a majority of conscripts be red-shirt supporters?

Thaksin promoted the crisis in BKK as to demonise the Democrat government, and the army of course got to share the blame - though both were reacting legitimately to an armed resurrection. Study the red-shirt propaganda still being issued; they're still the bad guys, even though a lot of damp people might be realising that that is another lie.

[jayboy]

48% of the vote is not a majority, and they are PTP voters, not necessarily red-shirts. The conscription method is supposedly tamper proof, so why would a majority of conscripts be red-shirt supporters?

I wasn't referring to the national vote but to the political sympathies of other ranks in the Thai army which are PTP/redshirt in the main.The middle classes (particularly the urban Sino Thai Democrat leaning element) generally find ways of avoiding the draft so the North and North East working class/lower middle class elements are heavily over represented.The top brass tried to put pressure on at the last election for ordinary soldiers to vote the "right way".They were seriously pissed off when it transpired districts dominated by the army voted PTP.

As a slightly separate point this should give the unelected elites serious pause for thought.

[DP25]

They were seriously pissed off when it transpired districts dominated by the army voted PTP.

Soldiers votes are counted in districts where they are registered, not where they are stationed. Same with civilians, you don't vote where you live but where you were registered (usually district you were born), that's why half the population of Bangkok disappears on election weekend. Areas around bases voted the way the area in general did. Dem in south, PTP in the NE and N, and a mix of parties in the center and lower Isaan.

[jayboy]

48% of the vote is not a majority, and they are PTP voters, not necessarily red-shirts. The conscription method is supposedly tamper proof, so why would a majority of conscripts be red-shirt supporters?

Thaksin promoted the crisis in BKK as to demonise the Democrat government, and the army of course got to share the blame - though both were reacting legitimately to an armed insurrection. Study the red-shirt propaganda still being issued; they're still the bad guys, even though a lot of damp people might be realising that that is another lie.

I'm not sure why you have repeated your earlier post.I think I have already addressed the points you raised.

However for the record:

1.The conscription record in practice takes in a higher proportion than would be expected of lower socio economic groups.Nothing so unusual here:the same was true of the US during the Vietnam War.

2.The bad reputation of the Thai army rests on its senior generals (given their record of corruption, political interference and incompetence), not with the rank and file for whom there is widespread admiration.

[jayboy]

They were seriously pissed off when it transpired districts dominated by the army voted PTP.

Soldiers votes are counted in districts where they are registered, not where they are stationed. Same with civilians, you don't vote where you live but where you were registered (usually district you were born), that's why half the population of Bangkok disappears on election weekend. Areas around bases voted the way the area in general did. Dem in south, PTP in the NE and N, and a mix of parties in the center and lower Isaan.

Your comments are sensible but don't explain why PTP won Dusit.The presumption is that most rank and file soldiers voted this way, and I don't think is seriously disputed.Equally it implies there is much red shirt sympathy in the ranks.

[OzMick]

48% of the vote is not a majority, and they are PTP voters, not necessarily red-shirts. The conscription method is supposedly tamper proof, so why would a majority of conscripts be red-shirt supporters?

I wasn't referring to the national vote but to the political sympathies of other ranks in the Thai army which are PTP/redshirt in the main.The middle classes (particularly the urban Sino Thai Democrat leaning element) generally find ways of avoiding the draft so the North and North East working class/lower middle class elements are heavily over represented.The top brass tried to put pressure on at the last election for ordinary soldiers to vote the "right way".They were seriously pissed off when it transpired districts dominated by the army voted PTP.

As a slightly separate point this should give the unelected elites serious pause for thought.

You believe that the conscription method can be tampered with - I bet that was news to Lt Chalerm! If you have any proof I would be glad to see it, or of the over-representation of Isaaners, but without it your statement is unreliable hearsay.

No comment on the anti-army red propaganda?

[DP25]

Your comments are sensible but don't explain why PTP won Dusit.The presumption is that most rank and file soldiers voted this way, and I don't think is seriously disputed.Equally it implies there is much red shirt sympathy in the ranks.

That does explain why PTP won Dusit. PTP beat the Dems in Dusit by 700 votes out of 80,000 cast. It is a large heavily populated area, it's not the soldiers that made that outcome, it's the people permanently living and registered there and soldiers are a small percent of that population. It's not an unusual result either, the district to the north the Dems won by only 1500 votes.

Edited October 18, 2011 by DP25

[IMA_FARANG]

These guys have no idea about when to release information. Industry in Thailand is now crippled, with the prospect of MANY people losing jobs, companies are likely to go bust and the government now tells them they have to put up the basic wage. I wonder how many major industrials will now use this current situation as the excuse to relocate, after all the insurance companies will be paying for most of it.

---------------------------

I think the real question here is how mzny wealthy factory owners will use it as an excuse to fire workers so they can use their factory's profits to buy their new Mercedes Benz.

It's all Capitalist male cow excretement.

Or as the joke goes, bend over Tinkerbelle and tell me again you believe in Fairies.

[jayboy]

Your comments are sensible but don't explain why PTP won Dusit.The presumption is that most rank and file soldiers voted this way, and I don't think is seriously disputed.Equally it implies there is much red shirt sympathy in the ranks.

That does explain why PTP won Dusit. PTP beat the Dems in Dusit by 700 votes out of 80,000 cast. It is a large heavily populated area, it's not the soldiers that made that outcome, it's the people permanently living and registered there and soldiers are a small percent of that population. It's not an unusual result either, the district to the north the Dems won by only 1500 votes.

Fair enough.Thanks for the explanation which is convincing.Wonder why army top brass was so upset about the Dusit result though - perhaps just the loss of face !

Still think most soldiers are PTP or redshirt supporters though!

[Babcock]

I know it's off topic but standing waiting to use the atm yesterday the woman in front was having trouble taking money out of an atm. She wanted 20000 baht and touching the screen she counted the digits. I happened to glance at the balance displayed above on the screen.

It was

100,500,000 baht.

I thought I'd bring this in on a discussion of the minimum wage. By the way this wasn't in Paragon or somesuch but at an ordinary K bank.

[jayboy]

You believe that the conscription method can be tampered with - I bet that was news to Lt Chalerm! If you have any proof I would be glad to see it, or of the over-representation of Isaaners, but without it your statement is unreliable hearsay.

No comment on the anti-army red propaganda?

I didn't use the words "tampered with".You did.

I did say army recruits are overwhelmingly working class and lower middle class, and that the middle class is underrepresented.That's fact not hearsay.

Why should I comment on red anti-army propaganda?It's a completely different subject.I have already pointed out there is no animosity in Thailand towards ordinary soldiers.Indeed we are rather proud of them.

[Buchholz]

meanwhile, back at thread's topic...

Thailand ups minimum wage as firms struggle with floods

At a meeting of a tripartite wage committee on Monday, employers were outvoted by government and worker representatives and a minimum daily wage of 300 baht was set for Bangkok and six other relatively well-off provinces, an increase of about 40 percent. However, the start date has been pushed back from Jan 1. The rest of Thailand's 77 provinces will also get a rise of 40 percent, but that will leave the minimum below 300 baht. A rise in the minimum wage to a uniform 300 baht around the country was one of the main policies of the party of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra in July's election. It would have meant an increase of 90 percent in some poorer areas.

A 300 baht daily wage is five times higher than the minimum in Vietnam and 2.5 to 4.6 times that in Indonesia, according to Kasikorn Research Center.

Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, brother of Yingluck and seen by many as the person really running the government from self-imposed exile in Dubai, had argued for the full increase to go ahead.

The wage rise will add to the central bank's dilemma at its rate review on Wednesday. Core inflation is near 3 percent, the top of its target range, but the economy is under threat from both the floods and a slowdown in Western export markets. Bank of Thailand Governor Prasarn Trairatvorakul said to help pay for the recovery effort, the government could raise the planned budget deficit by 14 percent to 400 Billion Baht for the year from October 1. The Finance Ministry has cut its gross domestic product (GDP) growth forecast for this year to 3.7 percent from 4.0 percent. It would be even lower if Bangkok, which accounts for 41 percent of GDP, is hit by floods. On Monday, the government asked firms at the Nava Nakorn estate north of Bangkok to halt operations. It has 270 plants with about 270,000 workers.

Continues:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/17/us-thailand-floods-idUSTRE79C0W720111017

Reuters - 2011/10/17

[brianb1944]

How many small employers will take any notice of the rate hike? I am sure that many workers will be told, "this is what I can pay, if you dont like it, some one else will." As happens in "developed" countries where illegals, and other desperate people are willing to work for whatever they can get, usually in agriculture or hospitality..

[Arkady]

In Bangkok and six other relatively wealthy areas the minimum wage will rise to 300 baht ($10), from the current rate of 215 baht ($7).

The remainder of the country will see base pay increase by about 40 percent -- although this will still be lower than 300 baht.

The other paper is saying that the 70 other provinces will receive the 300 baht minimum wage..... in 2013.

.

Excellent time for the industry to rebuild startoperation elsewhere like Vietnam, Cambodia and even Myanmar

I think it's a stone cold racing certainty that many flooded businesses will relocate capacity that is not intended for the Thai domestic market elsewhere. The HDD makers like Western Digital are already making those kind of noises. Even if they don't have minimum wage workers on their payrolls, the increase will go up the chain to more skilled workers. Their flood insurance premiums will increase massively. With the advent of AEC in 2015 it is also possible that many will relocate even capacity intended for the Thai domestic market to other ASEAN countries. Burma could eventually be a beneficiary, although its infrastructure and its political correctness still have a long way to go. Many will get the idea of using Burmese labour in Burma rather than in Thailand. Thailand's competitiveness has just taken another big hit but they still insist on obnoxious xenophobic regulations like the Foreign Business Act and massive red tape for work permits and visas in the belief that their prostitutes and golf courses will still always attract investors when there is no other reason to invest in Thailand. However, there is no reason to believe the Burmese will not be able to ramp up the competitiveness of their own prostitution and golf industries. They have a lot more resources in the form of raw land, islands, coast land and young women and boys from impoverished families.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Arkady

[Buchholz]

firms at the Nava Nakorn estate north of Bangkok to halt operations. It has 270 plants with about 270,000 workers.

when coupled with...

In response to a severe ongoing inundation in Ayutthaya that has so far swamped 4 major industrial estates in the province causing a complete halt of operations, Ayutthaya governor Wittaya Piewphong revealed that he has instructed related units under the Ministry of Labor to urgently come up with a plan to help workers.

He said that all of the factories in these estates were expecting to shut down and more than 300,000 workers would be jobless.

What's Yingluck's response to 570,000 unemployed... at any wage?

.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Buchholz

[OzMick]

You believe that the conscription method can be tampered with - I bet that was news to Lt Chalerm! If you have any proof I would be glad to see it, or of the over-representation of Isaaners, but without it your statement is unreliable hearsay.

No comment on the anti-army red propaganda?

I didn't use the words "tampered with".You did.

I did say army recruits are overwhelmingly working class and lower middle class, and that the middle class is underrepresented.That's fact not hearsay.

Why should I comment on red anti-army propaganda?It's a completely different subject.I have already pointed out there is no animosity in Thailand towards ordinary soldiers.Indeed we are rather proud of them.

Thai society as a whole, at least compared to western societies, is overwhelmingly working class and lower middle class. Are you sure that you are actually seeing misrepresentation?

And even if not, aren't you making the assumption that the supposed lack of middle class all represents democrat voters - that working class and lower middle class are red-shirt orientated?

[Crushdepth]

firms at the Nava Nakorn estate north of Bangkok to halt operations. It has 270 plants with about 270,000 workers.

when coupled with...

In response to a severe ongoing inundation in Ayutthaya that has so far swamped 4 major industrial estates in the province causing a complete halt of operations, Ayutthaya governor Wittaya Piewphong revealed that he has instructed related units under the Ministry of Labor to urgently come up with a plan to help workers.

He said that all of the factories in these estates were expecting to shut down and more than 300,000 workers would be jobless.

What's Yingluck's response to 570,000 unemployed... at any wage?

.

Sorry!

[Arkady]

firms at the Nava Nakorn estate north of Bangkok to halt operations. It has 270 plants with about 270,000 workers.

when coupled with...

In response to a severe ongoing inundation in Ayutthaya that has so far swamped 4 major industrial estates in the province causing a complete halt of operations, Ayutthaya governor Wittaya Piewphong revealed that he has instructed related units under the Ministry of Labor to urgently come up with a plan to help workers.

He said that all of the factories in these estates were expecting to shut down and more than 300,000 workers would be jobless.

What's Yingluck's response to 570,000 unemployed... at any wage?

.

Increase their cost and reduce the chance of them getting re-hired. But the middle classes are getting tax breaks on new homes and cars.

[Mickeem]

48% of the vote is not a majority, and they are PTP voters, not necessarily red-shirts. The conscription method is supposedly tamper proof, so why would a majority of conscripts be red-shirt supporters?

I wasn't referring to the national vote but to the political sympathies of other ranks in the Thai army which are PTP/redshirt in the main.The middle classes (particularly the urban Sino Thai Democrat leaning element) generally find ways of avoiding the draft so the North and North East working class/lower middle class elements are heavily over represented.The top brass tried to put pressure on at the last election for ordinary soldiers to vote the "right way".They were seriously pissed off when it transpired districts dominated by the army voted PTP.

As a slightly separate point this should give the unelected elites serious pause for thought.

You believe that the conscription method can be tampered with - I bet that was news to Lt Chalerm! If you have any proof I would be glad to see it, or of the over-representation of Isaaners, but without it your statement is unreliable hearsay.

No comment on the anti-army red propaganda?

I have encountered many conscripted soldiers in the Northern border areas and they are exclusively brown skinned Thais. I cannot ever recall ever seeing ''Sino' light skinned soldiers amongst them. Even though Thai/Chinese comprise

16% of the population they have their ways of avoiding the draft for sure. The conscripted soldiers I have spoken to in these area do also have a heavy representation of Issan natives.

[h90]

48% of the vote is not a majority, and they are PTP voters, not necessarily red-shirts. The conscription method is supposedly tamper proof, so why would a majority of conscripts be red-shirt supporters?

I wasn't referring to the national vote but to the political sympathies of other ranks in the Thai army which are PTP/redshirt in the main.The middle classes (particularly the urban Sino Thai Democrat leaning element) generally find ways of avoiding the draft so the North and North East working class/lower middle class elements are heavily over represented.The top brass tried to put pressure on at the last election for ordinary soldiers to vote the "right way".They were seriously pissed off when it transpired districts dominated by the army voted PTP.

As a slightly separate point this should give the unelected elites serious pause for thought.

You believe that the conscription method can be tampered with - I bet that was news to Lt Chalerm! If you have any proof I would be glad to see it, or of the over-representation of Isaaners, but without it your statement is unreliable hearsay.

No comment on the anti-army red propaganda?

I have encountered many conscripted soldiers in the Northern border areas and they are exclusively brown skinned Thais. I cannot ever recall ever seeing ''Sino' light skinned soldiers amongst them. Even though Thai/Chinese comprise

16% of the population they have their ways of avoiding the draft for sure. The conscripted soldiers I have spoken to in these area do also have a heavy representation of Issan natives.

First the conscripts get paid good and you have the option: after 3 month you leave. Your salary goes to the superior.

so the poor one are happy with the salary the rich one leave.

The Chinese Thai who don't leave are usually better educated and sit in the office. Beside the fact: My wife is half Chinese, half Thai and white like a European.

Put her 2 days in the full sun, she is not burned, but black like an African (in 2 days!!!).

So you won't see a light skinned because they get black in 1 week if they are not pure north Chinese.

[Buchholz]

Thailand ups minimum wage as firms struggle with floods

At a meeting of a tripartite wage committee on Monday, employers were outvoted by government and worker representatives and a minimum daily wage of 300 baht was set for Bangkok and six other relatively well-off provinces, an increase of about 40 percent.

However, the start date has been pushed back from Jan 1.

The rest of Thailand's 77 provinces will also get a rise of 40 percent, but that will leave the minimum below 300 baht. A rise in the minimum wage to a uniform 300 baht around the country was one of the main policies of the party of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra in July's election. It would have meant an increase of 90 percent in some poorer areas.

A 300 baht daily wage is five times higher than the minimum in Vietnam and 2.5 to 4.6 times that in Indonesia, according to Kasikorn Research Center.

Former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, brother of Yingluck and seen by many as the person really running the government from self-imposed exile in Dubai, had argued for the full increase to go ahead.

Reuters - 2011/10/17

Thai Floods Won’t Delay Minimum Wage Raise Plan, Kittiratt Says

Thailand’s government will proceed with a plan to raise the minimum wage to spur domestic spending even as companies face the cost of rebuilding after floods devastated industrial estates and shuttered businesses, Deputy Prime Minister Kittiratt Na-Ranong said in an interview in Honolulu, where he is attending the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum.

Continues:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-14/thai-floods-won-t-delay-minimum-wage-raise-plan-kittiratt-says.html

Bloomberg - 2 hours ago

Edited November 14, 2011 by metisdead
Edited for fair use.

[Thaddeus]

Wages in Bangkok and six other provinces will rise to 300 baht a day by April 1,

Yep, April the first it is.... mark that day on your calendar just in case.

How long is that after it was promised? ... most Thai's were expecting to be rich by January (47% in reality, the rest had more sense), well, that's what they voted for, and now they have to wait a further three months to find out that they were lied to.

The soap opera drones on and on.

[nurofiend]

Wages in Bangkok and six other provinces will rise to 300 baht a day by April 1,

Yep, April the first it is.... mark that day on your calendar just in case.

How long is that after it was promised? ... most Thai's were expecting to be rich by January (47% in reality, the rest had more sense), well, that's what they voted for, and now they have to wait a further three months to find out that they were lied to.

The soap opera drones on and on.

yep it does,

and it drones on just like the articles on here everyday that keep repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating..........................................

and repeating again.

exact same stories, different title... it's just so dull

and then you have the exact same comments to these repeated threads that have already been said ten thousand times before already..... honestly, it's a great cure for insomnia.

and droning is the perfect phrase for it all

[Buchholz]

Wages in Bangkok and six other provinces will rise to 300 baht a day by April 1,

Yep, April the first it is.... mark that day on your calendar just in case.

How long is that after it was promised? ... most Thai's were expecting to be rich by January (47% in reality, the rest had more sense), well, that's what they voted for, and now they have to wait a further three months to find out that they were lied to.

The soap opera drones on and on.

And even then (April Fools Day), it only applies to Bangkok plus 6 provinces.

For the overwhelmingly higher number of the other 70 provinces, the increase won't be seen until 2013 (two years after it was promised).

.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Buchholz