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Posted

I haven't seen or heard from my children, ages 10, 8, and7, for nearly two weeks. I have no idea where they are or what they are doing.

My Thai ex got a mobility order in Canada after a terrible two year courtbattle where she found extensive support of free lawyers, housing, food, andeverything she needed from the government and assorted agencies. She got somuch support based on lies and allegations that she never had to provideevidence for. Meanwhile she breached court orders, assaulted me, and did as shepleased with the children without any consequences or reproach. Even moreunjust is that I am supposed to pay her to take care of my kids based onCanadian costs. But that's the North American family law system for many of us.

I've been a very active and loving Father for my children. Both in Thailandwhere we lived for 15 years and back in Canada for the past two years. In factI had two of them with me for nearly a year before she came over with the thirdchild after learning about the support and financial gains she may get here ifshe could get us into the Canadian judicial system. I was misled to believe shewas coming over to reconcile the relationship and to find work and build a lifetogether here. But all she wanted was financial support and to take the kidsaway for herself. She never looked for work and just fought to get my andagencies to provide her with a free ride.

I know my children are heartbroken over this. My last contact was from mycrying daughter saying that she wanted to stay in Canada and be with me, thatshe had to keep her mobile phone away from her Mom or it would be taken away.But I couldn't do anything. The system here which purports to be focused on thebest interests of the children never really actions that statement, pretty muchalways links interests of kids to the Mother and Dad is just responsible to paybills. Now my only recourse to see my children again is to get back toThailand. Meaning I'll have to dismantle everything I built here in the pasttwo years. Everything I had in Thailand was stolen by her family who appearedat our home with a ten wheel truck and hauled it all away. So I'd basically arrivethere with practically nothing and there won't be any agencies providing mewith free lawyers or shelter there to help me to get my children back or to getme deserved time with them.

So I have a few questions.

  • First off is how can I find her and my kids? I have some ideas about where theymight be but have to make sure before I drop everything a fly out there.
    How will a Canadian court order be considered within the Thai court system? Orwould the whole process have to begin again within the Thai legal system?
    We were never married. What does that mean in terms of financial obligationswithin Thailand?
    Can anyone suggest a good agency or lawyer who can help me to get my childrenback?

  • Thanks for any advice anyone can offer.
Posted

Not clear where you and the kids are, which country?

Courts; If you don't have evidence, then it never happened. If your daughter is crying saying that she wants to come back to you, then call her now while you can and record it. Get on tape or video that she cryingly says; Daddy, I want to be with you, I must hide the mobile or mummy will take it away from me. If you don't have it on tape, then it never happened. Get evidence while your childrens memories still are fresh. No tape and it never happened. Get more than one child saying the same thing and record it and your situation will be stronger. No tape or video and it never happened. Get all children saying it and your situation in Thailand will be strong indeed. No tape or video and it never happened.

With that on tape, then you can easily go to Thailand and sue here and you will get a fair trial. Problems? Thai court will give you a fair trial in the best interest of the children giving you a fair chance, the father is not disadvantaged in Thailand, nor does the fact that you are a westerner work against you. Disadvantage: You will have to stay in Thailand with the kids. The mother can veto that you take the children out of Thailand

With good evidence that children wants to be with you and that mother deny them to see you; Mother will have to come back to Thailand to defend herself or she will eventually lose custody. Which country are you, the mother and the kids in?

I was at Pathum Thani Juvenile court as an interpretor only yesterday - the childrens wish really matters here. Crying children saying that they want to be with Daddy but mummy doesn't allow them to see him really matters

Now gather evidence; Tape and video that the kids are crying wanting to be with you, that mummy deny them access to see you

Posted (edited)

Really require information as to where in Thailand (at least the region) you believe your children are located. How can one recommend assistance without knowIng where the assistance is needed?

Edited by venturalaw
Posted (edited)

If you were not married then Thailand will not recognise you as the legal father, unless you have become their legal father.

As the other poster said get the things done that are suggested, once a mother has the children for a while she can twist them to hate you instead of loving you. Been there and done it.

Edited by beano2274
Posted

If you were not married then Thailand will not recognise you as the legal father, unless you have become their legal father.

As the other poster said get the things done that are suggested, once a mother has the children for a while she can twist them to hate you instead of loving you. Been there and done it.

I'm assuming that there was a finding of paternity and judgment thereon which enabled the Canadian court to order support. The question is whether Thailand will recognize it and thereby allow you standing to purse custody/visitation as well as a modification of the current order for support.

Posted (edited)

- First off is how can I find her and my kids? I have some ideas about where theymight be but have to make sure before I drop everything a fly out there.

Gather evidence first, find the kids later!

Once you sue in Thailand, the mother will hide the kids even more carefully but it doesn't matter. She will have to come to court to defend herself or she will eventually lose custody (but only if you have good evidence). She will have to bring the kids to court if court orders it. Point: Get evidence quickly so that you can go to court quickly so that you can get the kids into court quickly while their memories are still fresh

It takes approx 2.5 months before first fact finding session

- How will a Canadian court order be considered within the Thai court system? Orwould the whole process have to begin again within the Thai legal system?

Yes, it starts over again. A canadian court order will be considered but it doesn't decide the outcome here. Strong telling evidence from the kids is everything.

Your children will decide the outcome in this case in a Thai court.

That you are not married and thereby not legal father in Thailand doesn't matter; You will just include legitimization and it will be granted. This is not a question if a Thai court will recognise a western legitimization, they will just make a Thai legitimization based on existing evidence. That's a formality, court appearances here will be about 1) the child 2) Education 3) Future

Financially: Married or not doesn't matter - This is not a divorce, it is a custody case. Thai law says that you will have to pay a bit over a hundred bath per day per child. You can use the evidence of the money you pay in Canada to prove that you are already paying more than that. Additional money? No

To answer the question in the title of the thread: How to get my kids back? Evidence and Thai court - stay in Thailand with your kids. Your kids will decide how much possession of the child you will get. If your children wants Monday to Friday with you, then you will very likely get that

BTW - what exactly do you mean with mobility order?

Edited by MikeyIdea
Posted

If you were not married then Thailand will not recognise you as the legal father, unless you have become their legal father.

As the other poster said get the things done that are suggested, once a mother has the children for a while she can twist them to hate you instead of loving you. Been there and done it.

I'm assuming that there was a finding of paternity and judgment thereon which enabled the Canadian court to order support. The question is whether Thailand will recognize it and thereby allow you standing to purse custody/visitation as well as a modification of the current order for support.

Ventura, Thai juvenile courts do it their own way. A western court order is not binding, it is just a piece of evidence that they consider. No modification of support, just evidence that father already pay more than what is required in Thailand. How much support per child is part of a custody agreement and father should agree for a Thai amount, suggest 3,100 to max 5,000 bath per month per child - the Canadian support order amount is not involved at all

Modification is something that the father should persue in Canadian court using the evidence that Thai court provide him

Posted

An important facor is where the children where born, that decides the legalisation proces. It appears you have parental rights under Canadian law and you are the lagal father under canadian law, but the children were all brn in Thailand. if they were indeed born in Thailand, legitimization must be done according to Thai law and a Thai court will not recognize the Canadian legitimization. That will be different if the children were born Canada.

As said, it will only be an extra step but before you are recognized as the legal fahter, but it will take extra time.

Note that once you are recognized under Thai law as the father you also have the duty to pay child support. That might be a shock for the mother, as the Thai courts will only award between 3,000 to 6,000 baht per month per child and the parents share the cost of education and medical expenses. It seems that money will be a tool for negotiation with the mother.

How the Canadian court ruling in connection with the child support will relate to the Thai court ruling I don't know. If she lives in Thailand, it might vey well replace the Canadian court order.

Get competant legal advise and docuemtn everything that you do for the children and what the mother does wrong. Evidence is everything.

A good lawyer regarding Thai family law is issaan lawyers.

Posted

Thanks for all responses do far. Here's answer to some questions.

Kids are born in Thailand. I have Rahp Rong Look documents for paternity for all of them.

Children all grew up in Thailand until two and a half years ago when 1st born was brought to Canada by her Mom for me to take care of, then I came to thailand and brought back the second child, and third arrived four months later with her Mom.

I believe they may be in Kamphaeng Phet now.

The Thai court system sounds like it would be much more fair and reasonable. The North American system is terrible towards men and Fathers.

Wonder if I could also press theft charges as my ex had her family go and take every asset out of the home last year. They came and filled up a ten wheel drive truck.

Anyone know the approximate legal costs if I came there and sought custody in the courts?

Posted

Absolutely agree with Mario2008 in - If she lives in Thailand, it might vey well replace the Canadian court order

Child alimony is a Thai thing for a Thai juvenile court. You agree to somewhere between 3,100 to 5,000 bath per child and month (I suggest 4,000) and then you use the Thai court order to modify the Canadian support

Posted

I used to believe evidence was everything until I got into the Canadian court system. Then I foun it counts for practically nothing as judges don't read it and they like to do evidence by what's called vice vice. Meaning all evidence is just sworn oral testimony. She loved this because it meant all my documented stuff was ignored and she could say what she wanted and it was accepted as truth.

I was very disappointed in the judicial system here. I had expected a lot more from a so called developed nation.

Posted

I used to believe evidence was everything until I got into the Canadian court system. Then I foun it counts for practically nothing as judges don't read it and they like to do evidence by what's called vice vice. Meaning all evidence is just sworn oral testimony. She loved this because it meant all my documented stuff was ignored and she could say what she wanted and it was accepted as truth.

I was very disappointed in the judicial system here. I had expected a lot more from a so called developed nation.

Don't feel too bad, it's exactly the same in the UK.

Bit of a shock when it happens to you, and because you lose the kids, everyone assumes you are the bad person.

Number 1 rule you forgot, never sign a VISA application to allow a foreigner into your home country.

Posted

Charges could be laid for theft, althoug it must be done within a certain time and i would discuss this first with a lawyer. It might be a tool to get easier access to your children.

Coort fees will depend for a large part on the lawyer fees and also depedns on how long the mother will delay things by not showing up. Maybe other can thell you how much it costed them.

Posted (edited)

You have Rapp Rong Bott (not look), please check and confirm if the doc says kor ror 11 (kaa kwai ra rua), you already have shared custody according to Thai law if you have that. Not that important in court actually, just speeds up things an hour or so as they don't have to discuss legality of you as a father.

But important in that IF you can find the children, then you can just take them away from the mother and hide them from her - but you must immediately sue in court in Thailand too, bring them when doing it even better. Or before, doesn't matter when you do it. Note that the mother will sue for sole custody if you take the children and she will eventually get sole custody awarded in Thailand if you don't show up to defend your actions. A mother awarded sole custody in Thailand will most likely be pretty unstoppable in a western court, regardless of what the kids say...

Isaan layers probably USD5000 - 6000 something for full case. They are pretty good but also pretty expensive

Hows your economical situation? If you are well off and do not hesitate at all to spend money to guarantee the best possible future with your children then I suggest Tilleke & Gibbins.

Have a read here - http://www.thaivisa...._1#entry2326974

Thai Juvenile court judges will decide fairly - but be very aware of that Thai lawyers are not as trustworthy. Some will not fight 100% for you because you are western

Edited by MikeyIdea
Posted

scopin, the next 2 weeks are going to be critical for the future of you together with your children. More than that and the worst of the shock will pass and you will not be able to get very emotional evidence down on tape / video. Carry video camera at all times, turn it on immediately if any one of them call, turn mobile phone on speaker and record, get evidence that they say that they want to be with you, get evidence that the mother does not allow them to contact you

Posted

Having experienced western lawyers I have to say that I cannot imagine lawyers working les hard.

My financial situation is terrible now after so long in Western judicial system.

I am concerned about how others will view the Canadian court order. Because as mentioned people will see that and assume that it came out of a fair judicial system. Nothing could be further from the truth, but unless that person is familiar with the bias and prejudice of Western family courts that's the anticipated reaction. So I worry how much harder this may make things.

If I did find the children and took them then to be with me while filing I wonder if that could be done.

Posted

Children all grew up in Thailand until two and a half years ago when 1st born was brought to Canada by her Mom for me to take care of, then I came to thailand and brought back the second child, and third arrived four months later with her Mom.

I don't understand - where were you? How much time have you spent with the kids? Please let us know who took care of each child, who was together with each child and the time periods

Posted (edited)

I am concerned about how others will view the Canadian court order. Because as mentioned people will see that and assume that it came out of a fair judicial system. Nothing could be further from the truth, but unless that person is familiar with the bias and prejudice of Western family courts that's the anticipated reaction. So I worry how much harder this may make things.

If I did find the children and took them then to be with me while filing I wonder if that could be done.

- Because as mentioned people will see that and assume that it came out of a fair judicial system

I am talking about Thai courts here; Thai juvenile courts are THAI courts. A foreign court order matters but it does not decide anything. Your Children will decide the outcome in this case

But they can't make the court allow them to leave Thailand if the mother really fights to keep them here. They are too young so not yet. Can you make a living in Thailand?

- If I did find the children and took them then to be with me while filing I wonder if that could be done.

Absolutely, you could even help the oldest child to file himself! (children can file according to Thai law - controversial indeed). But the main thing is that you file yourself of course, child filing too is just making your case stronger in your favour

The same rule apply here as everywhere else in the world - The one in possession of the child has the advantage - you can help to offset that with video evidence of child crying, child saying that she wants to be with father, child saying that mother does not allow child to contact father

Edited by MikeyIdea
Posted

A mother awarded sole custody in Thailand will most likely be pretty unstoppable in a western court, regardless of what the kids say...

That is absolutely not true.

Posted

A mother awarded sole custody in Thailand will most likely be pretty unstoppable in a western court, regardless of what the kids say...

That is absolutely not true.

Do you know how this can NE done?

Posted

My ex did enormously well by getting involved with women's groups here. Are there such groups for her to go to in Thailand? Are there men and Father support groups in Thailand that could help me?

She also got free lawyers from the provincial government. Are there such programs in Thailand?

Posted (edited)

A mother awarded sole custody in Thailand will most likely be pretty unstoppable in a western court, regardless of what the kids say...

That is absolutely not true.

Do you know how this can NE done?

There are no absolutes. The statement that a custodial parent (in this case the wife) armed with a foreign order (in this case Thai) is "pretty unstoppable . . . regardless of what the kids say . . " in a western court goes against the very foundation and principals of the western family law judicial system. "What the kids say" is ALWAYS taken into consideration and weighs heavily in the courts' decisions concerning custody and visitation. Specifically, and more often, it is an expert's opinion (normally court appointed) based upon what "what the kids say" that the court considers most strongly in its ruling. "How can this be done depends upon the situation and the jurisdiction. There is not a one procedure fits all process.

Edited by venturalaw
  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

A mother awarded sole custody in Thailand will most likely be pretty unstoppable in a western court, regardless of what the kids say...

That is absolutely not true.

Do you know how this can NE done?

There are no absolutes. The statement that a custodial parent (in this case the wife) armed with a foreign order (in this case Thai) is "pretty unstoppable . . . regardless of what the kids say . . " in a western court goes against the very foundation and principals of the western family law judicial system. "What the kids say" is ALWAYS taken into consideration and weighs heavily in the courts' decisions concerning custody and visitation. Specifically, and more often, it is an expert's opinion (normally court appointed) based upon what "what the kids say" that the court considers most strongly in its ruling. "How can this be done depends upon the situation and the jurisdiction. There is not a one procedure fits all process.

The oldest child in this case is only 10 years old, most western courts will not consider them. This changes when the child turn 12 in most western countries

Posted (edited)

There are no absolutes. The statement that a custodial parent (in this case the wife) armed with a foreign order (in this case Thai) is "pretty unstoppable . . . regardless of what the kids say . . " in a western court goes against the very foundation and principals of the western family law judicial system. "What the kids say" is ALWAYS taken into consideration and weighs heavily in the courts' decisions concerning custody and visitation. Specifically, and more often, it is an expert's opinion (normally court appointed) based upon what "what the kids say" that the court considers most strongly in its ruling. "How can this be done depends upon the situation and the jurisdiction. There is not a one procedure fits all process.

The oldest child in this case is only 10 years old, most western courts will not consider them. This changes when the child turn 12 in most western countries

There were experts. Turns out the children's lawyer was director of many women's shelters and basically just an advocate for the Mother. I was self representing and didn't know you could submit names for the kids lawyers. So my ex and her lawye basically chose this person. We had a child therapist who said we were both good parents but I was bitter about the judicial system here.

No kidding after she attacks me with a knife and the police and courts do nothing. She moves my kids away in breach of order and agin the courts do nothing. She makes lies and false allegationsoffers no evidence and there's no consequence. Yet I a man tries any such actions you can bet there would consequences. Yeah, I was very disappointed in the system. I thought a 1st world nation would be well beyond such gender bias and prejudice. Turns out it's just the opposite.

Anyways my kids hated their lawyer but when we applied to change I get accused of coaching.

My oldest daughter called me today. Crying and saying she wants to come home. She wanted to talk to the court during the trial but it was turned down. Only reason we asked was that the kid's lawyer was not representing them.

Anyway it's a big mess and I wonder if some of it can be fixed in Thailand. Ait may have to be as I don't see any other way of getting back into my kids lives.

And just for the record I solo patented two of the the children for eight months before my ex showed up. I was considered an ideal Father by many as I took care of the kids, held a professional job, and started a home here. I still took care of all the kids needs and nurtured them to become wonderful happy and independent people.

Yet the courts and society here give no credit to men for achieving such things. My ex was praised for her ability to access free services. Go figure that one out.

Men have to work five times harder, present ten times more objective evidence to have anything close to the parenting credibility women are given automatically. This is what I see.

Edited by scopin
Posted

- My oldest daughter called me today. Crying and saying she wants to come home

Did you get to record it? You must have plenty of very good evidence like that. If you do, then you stand a good chance of getting a good deal in a Thai court. Then you push the childrens wish. The children will help you to good possession in a Thai court

- Men have to work five times harder, present ten times more objective evidence to have anything close to the parenting credibility women are given automatically. This is what I see.

This is in line with that I hear from divorced western colleagues, yes.

Posted

My ex was praised for her ability to access free services. Go figure that one out.

That is the unfortunate reality in socialistic countries. It's really beyond unfortunate.

Men have to work five times harder, present ten times more objective evidence to have anything close to the parenting credibility women are given automatically. This is what I see.

Sadly often true even though the law states no preference as to sex.

Posted (edited)

There are no absolutes. The statement that a custodial parent (in this case the wife) armed with a foreign order (in this case Thai) is "pretty unstoppable . . . regardless of what the kids say . . " in a western court goes against the very foundation and principals of the western family law judicial system. "What the kids say" is ALWAYS taken into consideration and weighs heavily in the courts' decisions concerning custody and visitation. Specifically, and more often, it is an expert's opinion (normally court appointed) based upon what "what the kids say" that the court considers most strongly in its ruling. "How can this be done depends upon the situation and the jurisdiction. There is not a one procedure fits all process.

The oldest child in this case is only 10 years old, most western courts will not consider them. This changes when the child turn 12 in most western countries

As previously stated, the thoughts, wishes, desires and most importantly, what is best for the children, is testified to by an expert who has interviewed the children. Therefore, what the children say, particularly if the children are mature, is relevant and considered. Once again, there are no absolutes concerning the weight given evidence from children able to participate. Concerning the age in which children's preferences are considered, in California once they reach age 6, they become part of the process via an expert.

Edited by venturalaw
Posted

As previously stated, the thoughts, wishes, desires and most importantly, what is best for the children, is testified to by an expert who has interviewed the children. Therefore, what the children say, particularly if the children are mature, is relevant and considered. Once again, there are no absolutes concerning the weight given evidence from children able to participate. Concerning the age in which children's preferences are considered, in California once they reach age 6, they become part of the process via an expert.

Often a year goes by before this person is even consulted, the mother will have plenty of time to brain wash her children first.

Posted

That's very much a part of the issue. The women are advised and coached by multiple agencies that are specifically there to assist her in her interests. Since the women often have the children these agencies often link the children's interests to the Mother and help her to coach them.

They do this without ever meeting with, consulting, or discussing Dad with the children. So the bias becomes children's interests are the Mother's and what's good for her is good for them. This can be a false premise, was in my case, but they are blind as the men and their role as Father is ignored by these women's groups.

If time was taken by these agencies and groups to examine the Farher as a person and the importance of their role in children's lives it would be different. But doing so would mean beginning with respect for the male and his role. And often this doesn't exist within the system for the proper start to begin.

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