Once Upon A Time...

[The Gentleman Scamp]

So I'm embracing this girl as she cries her heart out, dampening my left shoulder and it turns out she just wants to be loved by her mother, who is always demanding nothing but money from her.

She's not a bargirl, or if she is she's off duty, she's just hanging out with mates at an Irish pub populated by backpackers and the alcohol has obviously brought this recent rejection to the surface.

What can I say? ...I know what it's like to feel unwanted by the woman who brought you up but I also know how much everyone needs a family and you can't just tell them to get lost no matter how much you want to, you really don't, you just want to be loved for who you are - even if you do happen to be exceptionally different, which I don't think she was, she was just out for a few drinks and maybe a young traveler and there's nothing wrong with that.

A few days later, I'm waiting for a bus with Toon, an ex Nana girl who's now at business school who I've been good friends with almost three years and I tell her this story.

She tells me of her friend Jiab and how she is an alcoholic and a bitch to her friends and a slave to her arrogant farang, gangster boyfriend who uses her as a punchbag on a regular basis, but she is with him for money, and money is important to her parents who probably produced a baby for no other purpose than financial investment, something which I guessed might happened in Thailand but was horribly dissapointed to discover how much it happens - especially in the north.

EVERY child on this earth has a right to be loved by their parents and this sort of thing, which I would expect in a country as desperate as Cambodia yet still not condone, is very screwed up indeed yet and so wrong, yet clouded by this 'tradition' that basically states - 'We brought you into this world so you owe us'.

What I am interested to know is what inspired this greed, how the hel_l did these Thai's start 'farming' children?

Toon says that once upon a time, Thailand would trade rice for bananas and even help each other out for free, painting houses and building shops and living in harmony, oblivious to the malignant greed, commercialism and fashion growing rapidly on the other side of the globe.

I should point out that it was at this point in the conversation I was hollered at on the way to the toilet because I hadn't had the foresight to pay 5bt for the privalege, not that there was a sign anywhere but there you go, I went under a tree instead.

Thailand must have been wonderful in those days, the days when the first few farangs would have been welcomed with such genuine interest and profit would not be on anyone's minds.

Could this have been before Thailand had televisions or areoplanes or knew what they were missing on the other side of the world - the west?

This post has been brewing for a while, ever since I was criticised for 'moaning' about Thailand, but read between the lines and it's really humanity I'm moaning about, we're an absolute <deleted> up, maybe because we don't have a confirmed god telling us how it should be done.

People slag off Thailand because it is making more and more of the same mistakes that the countries where we came from have made.

Since the Thai's have been aware of the powerful and rich west they have tried to imitate us (understandably) but have adopted many of our social ills, bad habits and ludicrous laws in the process.

We flee the cancer only for it to catch up with us, yet we moan about it and get accused of wanting to deprive Thailand of it's right to be wealthy, which is missing the point.

Almost all the negative things about Thailand STEM FROM THE WEST- ESPECIALLY GREED.

Mine is a generaldislike of humanity and the realizeation that there's absolutely no escape from how <deleted>*ked up we are and we will always be outnumbered by the ignorant, blinkered and stupid.

I have nothing to gain from this post and I can't change the world but I love Thailand which is why I complain about it, I hate to see it changing from what once made it unique, into what is now making it the same.

But there's nothing I can do about it so I'm better off enjoying what there is left to enjoy.

We see what Thailand could and should be having learned from our own mistakes and we see them making the same ones.

At the end of the day, the human being will follow the most powerful leader and will always succumb to greed, and that's all there is too it.

Does anybody agree?

Edited November 16, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp

[Fast Eddie]

I do not know enough for certain about Thailand's past and the attitudes of the people in those times to know if the idyllic picture you have painted of generous co-operation in Thai society ever existed, however it seems to me that greed is an ubiquitous human emotion that has been displayed in all countries throughout the ages.

In this day and age advertisers are very good at trying to sell people lifestyles and the associated paraphernalia which they convince them they deserve. Images of a supposedly improved life are just beyond the fingertips of the general population in most countries, and the more attainable it appears the more people seem to want. I don't really know enough to be sure, but maybe the rampant consumerism in the west has to some extent been exported to Thailand.

Coming from a rich country as i do, it is easy for me to judge but hard for me to understand the situation in countries such as Thailand, with so many people living in poverty with no help from the state available. Maybe this amplifies the desire to obtain as much as possible in order to feel secure.

Edited November 16, 2005 by Fast Eddie

[kat]

Hi Scampy. Glad you were able to get this off your chest. By the way, whose quotes are you using?

Couple of quick points:

I agree with your sentiment about using one's daughters. Unfortunately, there is poverty here that can almost rival Cambodia's in some places, just not as bad or as much.

Secondly, while I like to hold the West to its responsibilities regarding historical damage, I can't support irresponsible, uninformed, and historically inaccurate comments. Anyone who says that all bad things, including materialism and greed, come from the West, needs to read up on quite a bit of Thai history.

I'll start: read up on the Sak Dina system, and how every member of the population had an actual rank in society, by denoting their importance and worth by rais of land accorded to their status.

Now, simply substitute rai of land for mobile phones, watches, and BMWs.

Perfect, now you understand. The West didn't export greed and materialism here, it just aided its efficiency.

[chuchok]

I'll start:  read up on the Sak Dina system, and how every member of the population had an actual rank in society, by denoting their importance and worth by rais of land accorded to their status.

Now, simply substitute rai of land for mobile phones, watches, and BMWs. 

Perfect, now you understand.  The West didn't export greed and materialism here, it just aided its efficiency.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So that means that China/Hong Kong also had a sakdina system, because the watch phone car thing is very evident in their society.

[Fast Eddie]

 

Perfect, now you understand.  The West didn't export greed and materialism here, it just aided its efficiency.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's pretty much the impression that i have as well.

[kat]

Well, China and Hong Kong have their own distinct histories. However, it is a farce to say that all of their commercialism and obsession with designer items comes from the West. If you take a closer look at their hierarchical patterns, you will also see a similarity between judging nobles and peasants, the moneyed class, and cheap labor.

This is not to minimize the materialism, commercialism, and greed of the West. I am simply saying that it is erroneous to say that these values somehow were mysteriously absent until they learned them from the West. Ridiculous. Read history.

[GuestHouse]

She's not a bargirl, or if she is she's off duty, she's just hanging out with mates at an Irish pub populated by backpackers

What is known in the trade as a 'Gifted Amateur'.

Consumerism from the west.... Give me a break.

As for those long gone golden days of harmony – They never happened, even that stone telling of rivers full of fish, markets full of free trade, happy smiling people.

No never happened – myth.

And since you mention ‘People Following Strong Men’ Hitler, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Franco … to name but a few, all used this myth of past golden times to Con/Control/Abuse their citizens.

[RamdomChances]

I want to make a good reply to this but I'm a bit drunk....tommorow

[kat]

Even better to post now, then

[chownah]

I think the Thais were being very generous when they allowed the Burmese to come and run the country long ago and the Burmese returned the favor by generously letting the Thai people take back the reigns of gov't later. I think the Thais also made the same generous arrangement with the Kampuchian gov't long ago to...and they reciprocated too. People were definitely nicer back then.

[kat]

That's right. It wasnt' all European Colonial and Western "generosity".

[britmaveric]

The dangers of moving from a mostly agrarian to an industrial society - seems most are caught up into consumerism. I'd say the want/need to improve their lifestyle through status and products is a large part of it and people will try to obtain these things through any means.

Who hasn't bought the latest gadget? Not because we needed it, but we wanted it.

Edited November 16, 2005 by britmaveric

[ProfessorFart]

Its all too easy to blame 'The West' for the ills of the developing world in these days of the blame culture.

At the end of the day greed and a longing for power is human nature plain and simple no matter where you are from.

[GuestHouse]

When the nation is called to cry 'Thai Rak Thai', the question must follow 'Thai Mai Rak Krai?'

And like sh1tty little nationalist everywhere the CEO loves to point the finger and blame the demon beyond the boarders.

[bkkmadness]

So I'm embracing this girl as she cries her heart out, dampening my left shoulder and it turns out she just wants to be loved by her mother, who is always demanding nothing but money from her.

Soiunds like you found another good un Scamp. Cheeky mare.

She's not a bargirl, or if she is she's off duty, she's just hanging out with mates at an Irish pub populated by backpackers and the alcohol has obviously brought this recent rejection to the surface.

Alcohol my arse, part of the plan more like.

As for the one about her mate with the gangster bf who beats her up blah de blah, I heard that one before many a time. I assume its to say 'thats my only option if a good guy like you dont take care of me.'

Anyway, back to the main point of the post. I think it may be understood better if you was at some point poor and in poverty yourself. You're very far from that, so gonna be easy to stand up on your high morals and spout about people and greed.

I'm sure hundreds of years ago in England they were knocking out kids left right and centre, lads for working, lassies for marrying off hopefully to a rich guy. It's called survival is it not?

Your a man that has difficulty walking in other shoes and seeing their points of view Scamp.

[chownah]

Scamp,

Don't let all this negativity get to you. All you need to do is get a darker tint on a new pair of rose colored glasses.

[Ice Maiden]

To be honest it all comes down to Thai culture.

No matter how hard we try we will never understand their culture. We can comment about their culture but we will always be subconsciously comparing it with our own culture.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and everything but I think a comment made when you don't fully understand something isn't valid.

[meom]

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and everything but I think a comment made when you don't fully understand something isn't valid.

So in that case the comment will not be made but then how we can determine the non validity of a non made comment?

[Ice Maiden]

So in that case the comment will not be made but then how we can determine the non validity of a non made comment?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly.

What I have just shared with you is a comment. Just a few words of what I believe at this moment in time because I leave room for my opinions to change with time and such.

You can question it, judge it, believe it, disagree with it, comment about it, critise it do anything you wish with it.

It dosen't mean I am right in what I say because at the end of the day it is just another comment from someone who may talk rubbish.

[meom]

Great comment.

[ProfessorFart]

My head hurts now! Bring back The Dude!

[meom]

Yeah mine too.

[sadman]

Leaving aside totally the absence of contraceptives and sex education, the practice of having children for economic reasons has existed since time immemorial. In Britain, people would have children in order that the children would look after them in their old age, as there was no welfare state and starvation was a real possibility. It was necessary to have lots of children due to the high infant mortality rate.

With increasing wealth (particularly resulting from the industrial revolution), the IMR fell and saving became a possibility, so the numbers of children born fell, but it was really only with full industrialisation, improved health and the establishment of the welfare state that we reached the enviable situation we find ourselves in - having children through choice rather than necessity.

I don't know about anyone else here, but my maternal grandmother was one of 12 live births, while my paternal grandmother was one of 10. They were born in the late 19th century. My father was an only child, while my mother was one of 3. I am an only child.

Many countries in Africa and Asia still do the same, quite possibly because they have not yet arrived at the stage where having children is a lifestyle choice as opposed to preventing an early death.

I'm not for an instant saying it's a great thing (Make Poverty History), but would just point out that it is an economic stage that many societies have already completed.

[tuky]

yawn

Not this again.

How can we moderate a topic when we are put to sleep half way through it?

Please keep it to your blog.

I cannot work out what you are trying to say, it appears as though you are telling us all you leed a sad life? is this true?

Anyone that wants to listen to this please petition a different mod.

[Neeranam]

At the end of the day greed and a longing for power is human nature plain and simple no matter where you are from.

Short simple and very true, Professor

[britmaveric]

To be honest it all comes down to Thai culture.

No matter how hard we try we will never understand their culture. We can comment about their culture but we will always be subconsciously comparing it with our own culture.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and everything but I think a comment made when you don't fully understand something isn't valid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You make comments on so many threads and even start threads and don't understand Thai culture. You can let your own cousin and others be taken by a Thai girl that is your "Supposed to be FRIEND" because this is the way she survives. It would seem to me that YOU need to grow up a bit before you go spouting stuff you don't have a clue about.

I for one am glad you are not a relative of mine and if you were a friend, I wouldn't need any enemies, you would fill that slot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Kringle - don't be so critical of Ice. She's young and she has heaps to learn, however in my opinion she's got a major headstart on most teenies her age.

[RamdomChances]

Well it's morning now, and this post is a lot less interesting when sober.

At the end of the day greed and a longing for power is human nature plain and simple no matter where you are from.

Say's it all really.

Anyone that thinks that greed and consumerisum are western inventions and that Thailand used to be some sort or agrerian utopia before "falangs" came here is living in some sort of fantsy land.

Kringle.

A bit harsh mate.....well more than a bit and pretty much uncalled for, of course Ice Maiden needs to grow up , she's 17, but still manages to post far more mature stuff than a lot of members here. Phrahaps you should climb down off that pedestel you seem to have put yourself on.

As my grandmother used to say "if you have'nt anything nice to say about people .....just shut up"

RC

Edited November 17, 2005 by RamdomChances

[Khutan]

What I am interested to know is what inspired this greed, how the hel_l did these Thai's start 'farming' children?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That one generally is an adaptation of a sick buffalo story. I have never heard of this 'farming' going on. Remember that when you get to some of the isolated villages, that is their world.

and a slave to her arrogant farang, gangster boyfriend who uses her as a punchbag on a regular basis, but she is with him for money

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Umm, there are so many people - even girls from Issan who go to work every day and have normal jobs in factories, offices etc.

From my limited experience, I have heard of a number of girls who have given up "The Trade" and gone to a factory etc.

I think you have listened to an old and practiced story.

[chonabot]

Scamp , you seem to have changed your attitude towards Thailand a lot since your last visit/stay. Sometimes it takes time to know and understand another , vastly different culture.

At the age of 40 I have about 20 years experience of the culture , 8 of those in a marriage to a Thai Lady.

I still do not understand it.

I enjoy your post/posting and also enjoy the opinions of those who reply.

I shall add nothing to the post , but will continue to try and understand the culture.

Edited November 17, 2005 by chonabot

[phibunmike]

The dangers of moving from a mostly agrarian to an industrial society - seems most are caught up into consumerism. I'd say the want/need to improve their lifestyle through status and products is a large part of it and people will try to obtain these things through any means.

Who hasn't bought the latest gadget? Not because we needed it, but we wanted it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wonder how much that change has to do with the move from a barter system to a cash economy. Kat's take on this would be interesting...