No Work Permit ==> No Building Permit

[simon43]

I'm building 2 small (10-room) hotels in Phuket. The land for these projects is leased in my own name for 15 years, and the lease registered at the land office with my name as leasee entered on the back of the Chanote.

I have obtained the building permit in my name for one of the projects, but I've run into a problem with the second project which is located in a different tambon from the first project.

The OrBorTor of that tambon will not sign the building permit in my name since I do not have a work permit. I do not have a WP because I am the project owner, and I'm not digging dirt myself. Once the buildings are finished, and ready to open, I will form a partnership with my Thai wife and obtain a WP to work in the hotel. But for now, it's just a piece of rented land and some buildings where I will live.

The OrBorTor wants to see some Thai law/legal document which says that foreigners can have a building permit in their name, when they do not have a WP.

Any suggestions what documents I can show them to convince them to issue the building permit in my name?

As a last resort, the BP could be issued in my Thai wife's name. But from previous issues over building permits issued in (a previous) wife's name, I much prefer to get this permit issued in my name

Money will not help to solve this problem - the bribe for the OrBorTor to actually do the job that they receive a salary for is already hundreds of dollars, and they have indicated that money is not the issue here - it is the law (according to them), that building permits can only be issued to foreigners if that person has a WP.

Your advice is much appreciated.

Simon

[PattayaParent]

Show them a copy of the Building Permit from the other Tambon and get them to give them a call?

Edit: I doubt that any law exists that specifically says Farangs can (or even can't) have a Building Permit without having a work permit, it would only relate to the conditions under which a BP may be issued.

Edited November 2, 2011 by PattayaParent

[simon43]

I already showed them the other building permit - their reply was that the other tambon was wrong to issue the BP in my name

It's one of these 'I would rather kill myself, you and everyone else on the planet' rather than admit that I'm wrong to deny you this BP...'

In order to save my blood pressure, I will ask my wife to sign it. But I already told them 'my name on the BP ==> you get that whole load of money that you demanded from me, my wife's name on the BP ==> you do not get one satang of that money and you will have to answer to her for any mistakes you make. Up to you (all said with a jolly smile on my face)

Simon

[thaiwanderer]

Am aware of various reasons given for denying / obstructing BPs to foreigners with differing status and differing ownership/control models. Whether any of these had any basis in law is another matter.

Given his vehmence about the issue, it apparently not being a bribery obstacle and you're likely to put in wife's name now anyway - could always ask him to point to that which precludes you having a building permit.

Separetely, not digging dirt doesn't mean not working. Managing and directing your builders is work so watch yourself on that especially given the spat.

Edited November 2, 2011 by thaiwanderer

[simon43]

@Thaiwanderer, actually there has been no spat, and 'negotiations' have been made by my Thai landlord - I have yet to set foot inside the OrBorTor office. For me, it's more a matter of principle about what 'farang' are legally allowed to do and what they cannot do.

As to the working part, I doubt very much if I could get a WP to dig dirt! I'm aware that even farting on-site can be classified as work, especially if I expend energy to emit said noxious gas. I keep a safe distance and pass instructions to my workers via a dead letter drop

Simon

[thainet]

@Thaiwanderer, actually there has been no spat, and 'negotiations' have been made by my Thai landlord - I have yet to set foot inside the OrBorTor office. For me, it's more a matter of principle about what 'farang' are legally allowed to do and what they cannot do.

As to the working part, I doubt very much if I could get a WP to dig dirt! I'm aware that even farting on-site can be classified as work, especially if I expend energy to emit said noxious gas. I keep a safe distance and pass instructions to my workers via a dead letter drop

Simon

Seriously why does it matter who's name the BP is in, as it only until the building is finished and then other licences are required anyway, which will have to be in your wife's name or a company name. The BP is also used to obtain power and permissions which would be hard for you to sign for anyway, so just having the BP in your wifes name is a lot easier and better on the BP (Blood Pressure this time).

[PattayaParent]

@Thaiwanderer, actually there has been no spat, and 'negotiations' have been made by my Thai landlord - I have yet to set foot inside the OrBorTor office. For me, it's more a matter of principle about what 'farang' are legally allowed to do and what they cannot do.

As to the working part, I doubt very much if I could get a WP to dig dirt! I'm aware that even farting on-site can be classified as work, especially if I expend energy to emit said noxious gas. I keep a safe distance and pass instructions to my workers via a dead letter drop

Simon

Maybe negotiations would better be handled by a lawyer who could request under what law the land office is refusing the BP.

[simon43]

Maybe negotiations would better be handled by a lawyer who could request under what law the land office is refusing the BP.

I would much prefer to accede to my wife's name being on the plan rather than pay out tens of thousands of baht to some incompetent, leach of a lawyer In 10 years of living in Thailand, I have never located any lawyer who was competent at their job

Simon

Edited November 4, 2011 by simon43

[TommyDee]

couldnt you reverse the question " can you please show me the law that says a Wp is required for a BP" that might have confused them

[Crossy]

couldnt you reverse the question " can you please show me the law that says a Wp is required for a BP" that might have confused them

I was thinking the same We certainly had no issues getting our BP in my name, but it wasn't in Phuket and it wasn't for a resort.

[monty]

It's a very shady area of Thai law!

In general, any document relating to business signed by a foreigner while in Thailand, and without holding a WP at the time, can be deemed not valid in a court of law!

So likely the issue is that they consider the building to be a business (resort).

It is not a law that states you are not allowed a building permit without holding a WP, but a law which states that signing paperwork on behalf of a business is considered work under labor law.

Another example (first hand experience), you are perfectly allowed to sign an insurance contract for your private car in your own name. If the car is in company name (and hence considered to be used for business), the insurance contract would not be valid if you signed it without holding a WP.

Our driver crashed the car, insurance declared total loss, but before paying out they demanded a copy of the WP valid for when the contract was signed. Asked why, as they didn't ask the WP when signing/paying the policy, they told us if no WP they would try to void the policy in a court case (and so avoid paying out 1,6 million Baht). Luckily, in this case, the WP was valid for the period requested!

[simon43]

@Monty - I hear what you say, but these documents have nothing to do with a business (right now).

The land lease contract is signed in my name, not a business, and my name is on the chanote.

The project plans are signed in my name only, and are plans for some guestrooms, my own bedroom and a kitchen. Right now, there is no business. The business only comes into being when it opens as a business, and when that happens, there will be a legal partnership (with my wife) and I will have a WP as manager etc.

I rented this land in my name only because of previous problems with my ex and our previous hotel. If my name is not on the building plans and building permit, then that is one major document that I no longer have which can prove my ownership of the business. With a Thai name only (my wife) on the BP, this means that the Tabian Bahn book for that business will be issued to my wife, and with nothing issued in my name. As far as anyone is concerned, my wife owns the business, not me, and my only 'defence' is that I am a minor business partner and our legal marriage means that THEORETICALLY, I am entitled to 50% of the business upon divorce. I say theoretically, because it took me more than 2 years fighting with my ex to convince her to equally share what I was legally entitled to last time.

No-one wants to waste time/money in a Thai Court, and no-one marries with the expectation of a divorce. But these are facts of life, and I wanted to minimise any possible problems at a later date.

In any case, the OrBorTor has again refused to issue the BP in my name, and so I have to put my wife's name on the plan - and pay them 20,000 baht for the pleasure

Simon

[thaiwanderer]

@Monty - I hear what you say, but these documents have nothing to do with a business (right now).

The land lease contract is signed in my name, not a business, and my name is on the chanote.

The project plans are signed in my name only, and are plans for some guestrooms, my own bedroom and a kitchen. Right now, there is no business. The business only comes into being when it opens as a business, and when that happens, there will be a legal partnership (with my wife) and I will have a WP as manager etc.

Perhaps its because its clearly not an entirely private residential matter?

Moving forward - once BP, built, partnership set up and guesthouse running will the land and or lease be transferred to the partnership?

[katabeachbum]

What the law/bkk government require is you to be a resident to have a building permit in your name, and this could be the reason they want WP. Certficate of residence from Immigration has worked for me

[simon43]

@katabeachbum - I gave up trying to persuade the OrBorTor. Lost of face for them and other childish reasons. The plans will be issued in my wife's name and I sincerely hope that she doesn't lose her marbles as happened to the last wife...

Anyway, life would be very boring if it were not for these concerns to spice up one's day

Simon

[thaiwanderer]

Small issue against the main issue but presumably tax liability on transfer from wife to you / the business?

[simon43]

@ThaiWanderer, according to Thai law, for married couples what is hers is mine, (and vice-versa) - for every asset acquired after marriage. So this new hotel is a joint business which would have to be split 50/50 on divorce, (and both of us individually assessed for tax etc). My interest in having my name on the land rental and building plans, (and anywhere else that I can put it), is simply to ensure that should the marriage break up, (and I sincerely hope it does not) - then I have more proof of joint ownership of the business than on the previous occasion.

I had to pay the blood-sucking OrBorTor another 1,000 baht just to print the building plans again with my wife's name on them (He actually suggested that I printed my wife's name on lots of little bits of paper and glue them over my name on each page of the plan - I suggested that his printer was better than mine...)

Simon

[thaiwanderer]

@ThaiWanderer, according to Thai law, for married couples what is hers is mine, (and vice-versa) - for every asset acquired after marriage. So this new hotel is a joint business which would have to be split 50/50 on divorce, (and both of us individually assessed for tax etc). My interest in having my name on the land rental and building plans, (and anywhere else that I can put it), is simply to ensure that should the marriage break up, (and I sincerely hope it does not) - then I have more proof of joint ownership of the business than on the previous occasion.

I had to pay the blood-sucking OrBorTor another 1,000 baht just to print the building plans again with my wife's name on them (He actually suggested that I printed my wife's name on lots of little bits of paper and glue them over my name on each page of the plan - I suggested that his printer was better than mine...)

Simon

Is the business going to be a registered partnership, co ltd or other? Is the building going to be transferred to that relevant legal personality or held in her / your / your both personal names?

Edited November 9, 2011 by thaiwanderer

[simon43]

The business will be a legal partnership. But as I mentioned in my previous post, even if my wife was the sole signatory on the land lease, and even if only her name appears on the building permit, and even if I do <deleted> all to help with this business etc etc, I am still legally entitled to 50% of the business/assets on divorce, (and vice-versa if I were the signatory and she did <deleted> all). That is Thai law pertaining to the assets of married couples where those assets have been acquired after the marriage.

Simon

[thaiwanderer]

The business will be a legal partnership. But as I mentioned in my previous post, even if my wife was the sole signatory on the land lease, and even if only her name appears on the building permit, and even if I do <deleted> all to help with this business etc etc, I am still legally entitled to 50% of the business/assets on divorce, (and vice-versa if I were the signatory and she did <deleted> all). That is Thai law pertaining to the assets of married couples where those assets have been acquired after the marriage.

Simon

No worries, I wasn't casting aspertions - just thinking aloud on the possible tax implications, rather than who might be entitled to what should you ever divorce.