Sluice Gates Closed To Save Bangchan Industrial Estate

[IMA_FARANG]

Oh, isn't this fun!

The hard fact is that unpopular decisions have to be made.

As someone said the water is going to go where it wants and when it wants.

There is no way to stop that, the law of gravity has not been or will it be repealed.

Water runs downhill and pools in the lowest points behind obstructions and blockages.

If the sluice gate is open, and the area on the other side of that gate is lower, that's where the water is going.

If the sluice gate is closed, the water will pool there until it finds another path, then take that path following gravity's rule.

No government, agency, mob, or religious authority can change that fact.

Governments, and especially democratic governments hate to have to face such a situation...where they have to make such a hard decision...where some group has to suffer and another group benefits; even when that decision is ultimately beneficial to the whole community.

The decision right now is who benefits...the industrial estate area and the jobs it provides...or the people who live in the houses that are going to be flooded?

I surely don't know the answer to that question.

In my opinion, however, in the end it won't really matter anyhow.

Either way, as I said before, the water will go to the lowest place it can find anyhow.

And right now it seems to be that industrial estate area.

Bottom line: Figure it out guy's this ain't rocket science.

Edited November 4, 2011 by IMA_FARANG

[robblok]

Mikey, is this an article about this situation here that we are commenting on.. or is this about the whole country.. i think its the former. so stop trying to involve the whole country.

Lets put it this way if you had a real big nice house and i had a shack. Then water comes and you know that if you build a dam and flood me you can save your house. If you dont build that dam i wont be flooded. So if you just build that dam without talking to me or giving me compensation. However if you say listen neighbor i stand more to loose then you but ill compensate you for your hardship. Then id not have a problem with it.

Kinda like when the goverment needs your land for a road. They compensate you for it.

[biloutte]

When people try to force nature to go another way nature come strnoger

all people in this world know that if you block water and something happen it will be worse

some people here not understand they need to open gate longtime already

now they put water many place for SAVE bangkok HAHAHA kidding ???

the water will go where they want and you can loose energy with sand or other it s make people tired more and more

maybee one way for people not think to much who is guilty because if they know many thing can change here

[mdechgan]

The water is going to go where it wants to go.....

Water is one of the most powerful force on this planet.

It is used to cut through steel, concrete, lift cars and trucks and can even support aircraft carriers.

I just don't see how a few blocks of brick or sand bags can stop this force.

Let it flow to the ocean as fast and quickly as possible.

Don't try to stop it, it will only make it angrier and flow faster.

[MikeyIdea]

Mikey, is this an article about this situation here that we are commenting on.. or is this about the whole country.. i think its the former. so stop trying to involve the whole country.

Lets put it this way if you had a real big nice house and i had a shack. Then water comes and you know that if you build a dam and flood me you can save your house. If you dont build that dam i wont be flooded. So if you just build that dam without talking to me or giving me compensation. However if you say listen neighbor i stand more to loose then you but ill compensate you for your hardship. Then id not have a problem with it.

Kinda like when the goverment needs your land for a road. They compensate you for it.

The article is about the flooding of an industrial park in Bangkok. The people discussing in favour of the people around the sluice gates see this as a local problem, the other ones see country wide implications and think that those are so important that they should be included in the discussion - I belong to the latter, you to the former

The ones using the local problem as basis for discussion are right in what they write, the ones using the country wide implications as basis for discussion are right in what they write

The discussion about rich - poor, big house - shack is not relevant. A country must be led in the best interest of all citizens in that country. Compensation of locals should not happen if local mobs (consisting of locals) cause the government loss of revenue. These are tough, sad decisions to take but they are in the best interest of all citizens of the countryy. I am glad I don't have to take decisions like that

Edited November 4, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[whatsupdoc]

Mikey, is this an article about this situation here that we are commenting on.. or is this about the whole country.. i think its the former. so stop trying to involve the whole country.

Lets put it this way if you had a real big nice house and i had a shack. Then water comes and you know that if you build a dam and flood me you can save your house. If you dont build that dam i wont be flooded. So if you just build that dam without talking to me or giving me compensation. However if you say listen neighbor i stand more to loose then you but ill compensate you for your hardship. Then id not have a problem with it.

Kinda like when the goverment needs your land for a road. They compensate you for it.

The flooding does have effect on the whole country. Even in Chiang Mai you will be able to notice shortages for certain goods (a good example is bottled drinking water). If you flood more industrial estates there will be more shortages nationwide.

The more areas are inundated, the more people lose their jobs, the more people have to evacuate, the more businesses have to shut, the harder it will be to get everything back to normal again.

So just letting the floods spread is not a very good idea.

[muchogra]

From the government's perspective it's prioritization according to its importance. It's not always a case of rich first, poor second. or last, scenario. People should really refrain from looking at everything from such an angle and widen divisiveness in the society.

When a certain area is prevented from inundation, some other areas will invariably be affected. Bang Chang Industrial Estate is a case in point; but this is an area of importance not just for Bangkok but for many parts of Thailand. If it can be protected at the expense of others it should be done.

What failing miserably are the facts that the government is subjecting to mob rule, not explaining to the affected people what, how, and when their problems are being alleviated.

Mob rule should never be tolerated. So many people have already been brainwashed enough that mob rule is synonymous with exercising their democratic rights irrespective the venues they follow.

[MikeyIdea]

You have a very narrow view of the world robblok, too much muscles around the eyes?

The poor, the middle class, the rich in all provinces in Thailand will feel the effect of the decrease in revenue the government gets

----------------

Nice remark attack the messenger if you cant win it with arguments. I could do the same but i wont stoop to your level.

I was talking about this situation here, not all around the country. This situation here were locals are sacrificed for a industry estate. I asked you to explain in this situation how the rich are being hurt.

You come back with an argument that all over the country the rich and poor are hurting, i agree with that assessment. But that was not the question.

I believe the muscle mark was a quick joke about your avatar.

It was the avatar yes, not personal rob

[robblok]

You have a very narrow view of the world robblok, too much muscles around the eyes?

The poor, the middle class, the rich in all provinces in Thailand will feel the effect of the decrease in revenue the government gets

----------------

Nice remark attack the messenger if you cant win it with arguments. I could do the same but i wont stoop to your level.

I was talking about this situation here, not all around the country. This situation here were locals are sacrificed for a industry estate. I asked you to explain in this situation how the rich are being hurt.

You come back with an argument that all over the country the rich and poor are hurting, i agree with that assessment. But that was not the question.

I believe the muscle mark was a quick joke about your avatar.

It was the avatar yes, not personal rob

I dont take it personal, im cool here. I just have an other view. I have been flooded now for 10 days or so im in the west/ north water is decreasing here. SO this does not influence me. Also i dont need a handout i got enough to pay for all damages. I am not rich but do ok.

ANyway i just see things different here because i have been flooded. Normally id say save the industry. But i see a lot of people here that lost it all. I think most businesses can better handle that then people (not all of course)

[ResX]

The water is going to go where it wants to go.....

Water is one of the most powerful force on this planet.

It is used to cut through steel, concrete, lift cars and trucks and can even support aircraft carriers.

I just don't see how a few blocks of brick or sand bags can stop this force.

Let it flow to the ocean as fast and quickly as possible.

Don't try to stop it, it will only make it angrier and flow faster.

And in becomes even more powerful if the dams that should be the last frontier to break even are badly unorganized. The unfortunate fact is that some of the improperly designed dams contribute to make the flood event bigger.

[pjhjr]

nothing but a load of lies- so they're trying to say that the only reason the estate, and the rest of bangkok is in danger of flooding is because a gate was opened 20cm more than they wanted plus a 1 meter wide breach at the gate, that allowed water to flow out for what, a day or 2? BS. The "mob rule" is their scapegoat, it's so clearly obvious they are using these so called "mobs" as the fall guy so they won't lose face as/when Bangkok floods, which it will no matter what they try to do. This flooding would have happened regardless of whether the gate was closed, opened or not damaged, and it will continue to flood. It's sad that not only are the poor drowning in their own waste, they're also taking the blame for the flooding of the elite's golden goose.

[whybother]

nothing but a load of lies- so they're trying to say that the only reason the estate, and the rest of bangkok is in danger of flooding is because a gate was opened 20cm more than they wanted plus a 1 meter wide breach at the gate, that allowed water to flow out for what, a day or 2? BS. The "mob rule" is their scapegoat, it's so clearly obvious they are using these so called "mobs" as the fall guy so they won't lose face as/when Bangkok floods, which it will no matter what they try to do. This flooding would have happened regardless of whether the gate was closed, opened or not damaged, and it will continue to flood. It's sad that not only are the poor drowning in their own waste, they're also taking the blame for the flooding of the elite's golden goose.

Bangchan industrial estate IS flooding because these sluice gates have been opened more than the klongs around there can handle. The water is not coming from anywhere else.

Rich people live outside Bangkok's flood protection walls, and poor people live inside. Bangkok doesn't just have rich people living here.

[khunken]

nothing but a load of lies- so they're trying to say that the only reason the estate, and the rest of bangkok is in danger of flooding is because a gate was opened 20cm more than they wanted plus a 1 meter wide breach at the gate, that allowed water to flow out for what, a day or 2? BS. The "mob rule" is their scapegoat, it's so clearly obvious they are using these so called "mobs" as the fall guy so they won't lose face as/when Bangkok floods, which it will no matter what they try to do. This flooding would have happened regardless of whether the gate was closed, opened or not damaged, and it will continue to flood. It's sad that not only are the poor drowning in their own waste, they're also taking the blame for the flooding of the elite's golden goose.

The estate in question started to experience flooding AFTER the mob virtually destroyed the gate so get your facts right. This is not the first time that a mob - supported by the PM, Chalerm & other incompetents - has caused flooding in other areas just because of the 'we are wet & they are dry' syndrome.

Protecting the Bang Chan industrial estate has nothing to do with any elite. What it does is keep companies that produce food (instant noodles, milk, etc) from closing down. These companies supply other parts of the country apart from Bangkok.

Using a rich versus poor argument here is just displaying ignorance laced with bias.

[Ijustwannateach]

[anterian]

Micky misses the point, perhaps if I refer him to the New Testament story of "the widow's mite" he might start to understand.

Let me use myself as an example, I have suffered at a guess about 100,000 baht of loss and damage, that hurts but is not a catastrophe. But to someone on casual labour, with wife and kids, that would the end of the world. Ok he has perhaps had 10,000 baht of damage, but to him 10,000 is far more than the 100,000 baht to me.

I think many farangs just do not understand the level of poverty that is the lot of many Thais.

[whybother]

Micky misses the point, perhaps if I refer him to the New Testament story of "the widow's mite" he might start to understand.

Let me use myself as an example, I have suffered at a guess about 100,000 baht of loss and damage, that hurts but is not a catastrophe. But to someone on casual labour, with wife and kids, that would the end of the world. Ok he has perhaps had 10,000 baht of damage, but to him 10,000 is far more than the 100,000 baht to me.

I think many farangs just do not understand the level of poverty that is the lot of many Thais.

What has that got to do with deliberately flooding more of Bangkok?

[anterian]

Micky misses the point, perhaps if I refer him to the New Testament story of "the widow's mite" he might start to understand.

Let me use myself as an example, I have suffered at a guess about 100,000 baht of loss and damage, that hurts but is not a catastrophe. But to someone on casual labour, with wife and kids, that would the end of the world. Ok he has perhaps had 10,000 baht of damage, but to him 10,000 is far more than the 100,000 baht to me.

I think many farangs just do not understand the level of poverty that is the lot of many Thais.

What has that got to do with deliberately flooding more of Bangkok?

Absolutely dam_n all....OK?

My comment was in support of Robblok.

Just out of interest, where are you, how much water are you sitting in? Have you suffered any direct financial loss?

Is your home intact, your furniture, all your worldly goods?

[Crushdepth]

The water is going to go where it wants to go.....

Quite right, and until they understand that, most attempts to block the flooding will only lead the water to areas where it's beyond any control. But this is the same story again and again and again.

Actually, in this case, the water is going to go where the mob wants it to go.

This is "crowdsourced disaster management".

The city has had it anyway, but if they can save that estate and 40,000 jobs, bloody hell just do it.

[whybother]

Micky misses the point, perhaps if I refer him to the New Testament story of "the widow's mite" he might start to understand.

Let me use myself as an example, I have suffered at a guess about 100,000 baht of loss and damage, that hurts but is not a catastrophe. But to someone on casual labour, with wife and kids, that would the end of the world. Ok he has perhaps had 10,000 baht of damage, but to him 10,000 is far more than the 100,000 baht to me.

I think many farangs just do not understand the level of poverty that is the lot of many Thais.

What has that got to do with deliberately flooding more of Bangkok?

Absolutely dam_n all....OK?

My comment was in support of Robblok.

Just out of interest, where are you, how much water are you sitting in? Have you suffered any direct financial loss?

Is your home intact, your furniture, all your worldly goods?

No water. No loss, even if Bangkok was to get flooded. Therefore, no emotional attachment to any decision, except for a logical decision.

You're comments seemed to be along the lines of "Poor people have lost everything. Bangkok people would be able to cope with some loss because they can afford it". If it wasn't, I apologise.

Edited November 4, 2011 by whybother

[Credo]

I feel like I am on the deck of the Titanic and the band just keeps on playing.

[robblok]

Micky misses the point, perhaps if I refer him to the New Testament story of "the widow's mite" he might start to understand.

Let me use myself as an example, I have suffered at a guess about 100,000 baht of loss and damage, that hurts but is not a catastrophe. But to someone on casual labour, with wife and kids, that would the end of the world. Ok he has perhaps had 10,000 baht of damage, but to him 10,000 is far more than the 100,000 baht to me.

I think many farangs just do not understand the level of poverty that is the lot of many Thais.

What has that got to do with deliberately flooding more of Bangkok?

Absolutely dam_n all....OK?

My comment was in support of Robblok.

Just out of interest, where are you, how much water are you sitting in? Have you suffered any direct financial loss?

Is your home intact, your furniture, all your worldly goods?

No water. No loss, even if Bangkok was to get flooded. Therefore, no emotional attachment to any decision, except for a logical decision.

You're comments seemed to be along the lines of "Poor people have lost everything. Bangkok people would be able to cope with some loss because they can afford it". If it wasn't, I apologise.

My comments are if your going to flood someone to save others, better promise them compensation so they wont be left desperate and start breaking down gates. Also just logic. Or you can put the military there and have them shoot them. I wonder what of the two options is more civil.

[whybother]

My comments are if your going to flood someone to save others, better promise them compensation so they wont be left desperate and start breaking down gates. Also just logic. Or you can put the military there and have them shoot them. I wonder what of the two options is more civil.

Does that mean that the upstream people will compensate the downstream people?

The people upstream of the gates aren't being flooded to save the people downstream. The upstream people would be flooded anyway.

[robblok]

My comments are if your going to flood someone to save others, better promise them compensation so they wont be left desperate and start breaking down gates. Also just logic. Or you can put the military there and have them shoot them. I wonder what of the two options is more civil.

Does that mean that the upstream people will compensate the downstream people?

The people upstream of the gates aren't being flooded to save the people downstream. The upstream people would be flooded anyway.

If gates were open water would not build up there. They are only 1 meter open. I am not saying flood BKK i am saying compensate them. You seem to have a problem with that, and a problem with mob rule. I tend to agree mob rule is not a good thing. So im looking in ways how to avoid it. Compensations would do so.

Just think of the other provinces that were asked to keep the water as long as possible from reaching BKK and flooding themselves. A governor got replaced because he failed to do so. So yes upstream people have been flooded to save downstream people. No dams and water would flow fast downstream and not build up.

[whybother]

My comments are if your going to flood someone to save others, better promise them compensation so they wont be left desperate and start breaking down gates. Also just logic. Or you can put the military there and have them shoot them. I wonder what of the two options is more civil.

Does that mean that the upstream people will compensate the downstream people?

The people upstream of the gates aren't being flooded to save the people downstream. The upstream people would be flooded anyway.

If gates were open water would not build up there. They are only 1 meter open. I am not saying flood BKK i am saying compensate them. You seem to have a problem with that, and a problem with mob rule. I tend to agree mob rule is not a good thing. So im looking in ways how to avoid it. Compensations would do so.

Just think of the other provinces that were asked to keep the water as long as possible from reaching BKK and flooding themselves. A governor got replaced because he failed to do so. So yes upstream people have been flooded to save downstream people. No dams and water would flow fast downstream and not build up.

Don Mueang has been flooded at 1-2 metres for 2 weeks with no change and nothing making it build up or stopping it from moving on.

Compensating everyone that has been flooded would be cost prohibitive. Flooding more people is not a suitable answer, either.

[robblok]

My comments are if your going to flood someone to save others, better promise them compensation so they wont be left desperate and start breaking down gates. Also just logic. Or you can put the military there and have them shoot them. I wonder what of the two options is more civil.

Does that mean that the upstream people will compensate the downstream people?

The people upstream of the gates aren't being flooded to save the people downstream. The upstream people would be flooded anyway.

If gates were open water would not build up there. They are only 1 meter open. I am not saying flood BKK i am saying compensate them. You seem to have a problem with that, and a problem with mob rule. I tend to agree mob rule is not a good thing. So im looking in ways how to avoid it. Compensations would do so.

Just think of the other provinces that were asked to keep the water as long as possible from reaching BKK and flooding themselves. A governor got replaced because he failed to do so. So yes upstream people have been flooded to save downstream people. No dams and water would flow fast downstream and not build up.

Don Mueang has been flooded at 1-2 metres for 2 weeks with no change and nothing making it build up or stopping it from moving on.

Compensating everyone that has been flooded would be cost prohibitive. Flooding more people is not a suitable answer, either.

Of course don muang is still flooded a lot of water must pass there, that wont stop. Same as here been flooded for over 2 weeks now. The water has to pass but thankfully there are no dams holding it here.

Situation is different for people near those gates, by blocking the gates it only gets worse for them. You were saying that the water level did not drop when they opened it wider.. but it also did not rise. You never know what it would have been had it not been opened. These people are sacrificed, and water is kept there by a sluice gate.

Totally different from don muang and my situation. We were not sacrificed to save anyone. Here the water can flow and it does so. (real slow)

[whybother]

Of course don muang is still flooded a lot of water must pass there, that wont stop. Same as here been flooded for over 2 weeks now. The water has to pass but thankfully there are no dams holding it here.

Situation is different for people near those gates, by blocking the gates it only gets worse for them. You were saying that the water level did not drop when they opened it wider.. but it also did not rise. You never know what it would have been had it not been opened. These people are sacrificed, and water is kept there by a sluice gate.

Totally different from don muang and my situation. We were not sacrificed to save anyone. Here the water can flow and it does so. (real slow)

The sluice gate was open. It just wasn't fully open. When it was opened wider because of mob rule, people downstream were flooded, and an industrial estate was threatened. The only reason there wasn't worse flooding is because other gates were closed. Water isn't stuck there. It is also being directed other ways.

[robblok]

Of course don muang is still flooded a lot of water must pass there, that wont stop. Same as here been flooded for over 2 weeks now. The water has to pass but thankfully there are no dams holding it here.

Situation is different for people near those gates, by blocking the gates it only gets worse for them. You were saying that the water level did not drop when they opened it wider.. but it also did not rise. You never know what it would have been had it not been opened. These people are sacrificed, and water is kept there by a sluice gate.

Totally different from don muang and my situation. We were not sacrificed to save anyone. Here the water can flow and it does so. (real slow)

The sluice gate was open. It just wasn't fully open. When it was opened wider because of mob rule, people downstream were flooded, and an industrial estate was threatened. The only reason there wasn't worse flooding is because other gates were closed. Water isn't stuck there. It is also being directed other ways.

I know, but these people obviously were flooded and water was not diverted enough. So to save people downstream upstream was flooded. Now when they opened it and downstream was flooded. That was wrong of course and if they had offered compensation it might not have happened. In Thailand compensation is quite normal. I see it ass an alternative for putting armed troops on the gates.

[anterian]

Micky misses the point, perhaps if I refer him to the New Testament story of "the widow's mite" he might start to understand.

Let me use myself as an example, I have suffered at a guess about 100,000 baht of loss and damage, that hurts but is not a catastrophe. But to someone on casual labour, with wife and kids, that would the end of the world. Ok he has perhaps had 10,000 baht of damage, but to him 10,000 is far more than the 100,000 baht to me.

I think many farangs just do not understand the level of poverty that is the lot of many Thais.

What has that got to do with deliberately flooding more of Bangkok?

Absolutely dam_n all....OK?

My comment was in support of Robblok.

Just out of interest, where are you, how much water are you sitting in? Have you suffered any direct financial loss?

Is your home intact, your furniture, all your worldly goods?

No water. No loss, even if Bangkok was to get flooded. Therefore, no emotional attachment to any decision, except for a logical decision.

You're comments seemed to be along the lines of "Poor people have lost everything. Bangkok people would be able to cope with some loss because they can afford it". If it wasn't, I apologise.

In Bangkok the relatively well off own homes, perhaps with a mortgage. The poor either rent or squat. The poor have few possessions in Bangkok, most is upcountry with their extended families. These people when disaster strikes normally retreat upcountry and "lick their wounds".

Here in the "suburbs" the situation is different, these people are equally poor, but they own their homes, or at least the banks do. They have furniture and domestic goods, they are settled families. When the floods came they lost everything, and still have mortgage payments to meet.

Everyone is asking me to print out pictures of their flooded homes, they hope to persuade the banks to waive payments for a while. About 80% of these people are self employed, street and market sellers, dress makers, taxi drivers, etc

What I am trying to explain is the the poor in Bangkok are different from the poor in the surrounding areas. They have different needs and have suffered different losses, in my opinion much greater losses.

[MikeyIdea]

Micky misses the point, perhaps if I refer him to the New Testament story of "the widow's mite" he might start to understand.

Let me use myself as an example, I have suffered at a guess about 100,000 baht of loss and damage, that hurts but is not a catastrophe. But to someone on casual labour, with wife and kids, that would the end of the world. Ok he has perhaps had 10,000 baht of damage, but to him 10,000 is far more than the 100,000 baht to me.

I think many farangs just do not understand the level of poverty that is the lot of many Thais.

I don't care if my house in Bangkok (well my daughters house as it is in her name) gets more flooded more than it already is, I can afford it. What I care about is all citizens in Thailand and mostly the poor who will suffer the most from the government getting the area providing them with 40% of their revenue and more than 40% of the net income flooded, that will ultimately affect health care, education and safety for everybody in Thailand - which will hurt the poor the most as they are the ones who can't afford an alternative

I live with poor to lower middle class Thais and speak much more Thai than English in an average day since over 10 years back, what do you know about the poor that I don't anterian?

Why is reducing the possibility for the government to provide for the poor everywhere in Thailland by flooding Bangkok fair? Why do some consider that fair to the poor?

Edited November 7, 2011 by MikeyIdea

[sparebox2]

Try to save 40,000 jobs, by flooding millions of poor farmers outside Bangkok.

Don't you think that the price is a little high to pay?

Let's all human have equal rights, regarless if you work in Banchan or not. It is only fair, isn't it?