Flood Nears Inner Bangkok

[ginjag]

Experts are not needed, any student of physical geography knows the answer, equally any student of Thai culture knows they would never implement it.

The middle and lower reaches of the river are a series of meanders, this is typical of flat land. So in normal flow the water slowly meanders down to the sea. But when in full spate it is like a car that tries to take a bend too fast and goes off the road, the water does the same it can't follow the meander and overflows. In a natural environment the water will carve out a new more direct channel, the original meander is cut off and forms an "oxbow lake".

What Thailand has to do is work with nature, not wait hundreds of years for the river to straighten itself out, rather it needs to dig a straight channel through every meander.

However, this cannot happen because looking at the map you can see that every meander has been extensively developed with housing estates, high rise condos, hotels, department stores and factories, even an airport, many would have to go to clear a channel. But most of this development was by the elite, the rich, they would fight any such clearance tooth and nail.

So Bangkok is doomed because the cure is too draconian for those in power to stomach. I don't care which party is in power, none would have the guts to do what needs doing.

What other way forward as many people have suggested a host of solutions, and as I posted earlier, if it was possible, and I personally think it is with time is to raise the level of the land. carve out some of the hills (then took away a mountain near Pattaya to build foundations for a giant motorway) your suggestion re straightening out the river is a proven thing-quicken nature and do it where you can. USE the land again that you dig out to raise the land on both sides of the river.raise any land that is low lying==including NEW industrial estate sites.

As I said in another topic dig gigantic craters use the soil to raise land again-then use the holes to get rid of rubbish, but recycle first. shout me down if you think the idea is a lost cause.

Eventually that is what needs to be done. Unfortunately to raise the level of the land you have to demolish what's sitting on top of it first; then build it up, consolidate it and then rebuild at the higher level. Essentially you are talking about the total re-building of Bangkok and surrounding towns.. It's a very long term plan .

Nearly every low lying village, town, people are landfilling and raising THEIR houses even.(issan) now Bangkok has certain areas that should not have to be raised, as the land is on high enough ground, the other areas are a long term. But some places their floor level could be filled in and keep your existing building. ????therefore using the second floor as their first floor. (no demolition required)---please get these disgusting klongs sorted out now--it's exactly the time to do it, maybe the only opportunity .

[agudbuk]

Experts are not needed, any student of physical geography knows the answer, equally any student of Thai culture knows they would never implement it.

The middle and lower reaches of the river are a series of meanders, this is typical of flat land. So in normal flow the water slowly meanders down to the sea. But when in full spate it is like a car that tries to take a bend too fast and goes off the road, the water does the same it can't follow the meander and overflows. In a natural environment the water will carve out a new more direct channel, the original meander is cut off and forms an "oxbow lake".

What Thailand has to do is work with nature, not wait hundreds of years for the river to straighten itself out, rather it needs to dig a straight channel through every meander.

However, this cannot happen because looking at the map you can see that every meander has been extensively developed with housing estates, high rise condos, hotels, department stores and factories, even an airport, many would have to go to clear a channel. But most of this development was by the elite, the rich, they would fight any such clearance tooth and nail.

So Bangkok is doomed because the cure is too draconian for those in power to stomach. I don't care which party is in power, none would have the guts to do what needs doing.

What other way forward as many people have suggested a host of solutions, and as I posted earlier, if it was possible, and I personally think it is with time is to raise the level of the land. carve out some of the hills (then took away a mountain near Pattaya to build foundations for a giant motorway) your suggestion re straightening out the river is a proven thing-quicken nature and do it where you can. USE the land again that you dig out to raise the land on both sides of the river.raise any land that is low lying==including NEW industrial estate sites.

As I said in another topic dig gigantic craters use the soil to raise land again-then use the holes to get rid of rubbish, but recycle first. shout me down if you think the idea is a lost cause.

Eventually that is what needs to be done. Unfortunately to raise the level of the land you have to demolish what's sitting on top of it first; then build it up, consolidate it and then rebuild at the higher level. Essentially you are talking about the total re-building of Bangkok and surrounding towns.. It's a very long term plan .

Nearly every low lying village, town, people are landfilling and raising THEIR houses even.(issan) now Bangkok has certain areas that should not have to be raised, as the land is on high enough ground, the other areas are a long term. But some places their floor level could be filled in and keep your existing building. ????therefore using the second floor as their first floor. (no demolition required)---please get these disgusting klongs sorted out now--it's exactly the time to do it, maybe the only opportunity .

If it was so simple. : Road levels, services ; are still a problem and you've just halved the floor area of all the 2 storey houses in the area. . Many older traditional style homes with accommodation all at a raised level to allow water to pass under the structure have in recent years had the ground level areas enclosed for extra rooms. Just human nature to make a much use of the ground area as possible.

Serious rebuilding and ground restructuring will be a very long term project and a very expensive one.

[n2ojones]

IMO - It is only a matter of time before all of Bangkok gets flooded

No one in charge has a clue how to stop it or how to redirect the water

You are probably correct so why not offer them some advice or are you the same as those in charge? Not A clue on What to Do.

Back in 1958 we used to do this drill in our city in the middle of the Canadian prairies. The city air raid sirens would go off and we would all get under our desks and roll up into a ball. This was in case of an attack by the Soviet Union which of course would have involved atomic weapons. The mentality of authority has not changed. Even in Canada the big thing was to look good even when you knew that when these kids roll up in a ball the most realistic thing they can do is kiss their ass good bye.

In the last few days a large meteorite flew between the earth and the moon. Had it hit the earth it would have annihilated a large percentage of life on this planet and all we could do is watch it come. The flood would have become completely irrelevant.

There are lots of ways to die and old age is not necessarily the best. I drowned once and other than the initial panic it wasn't really that bad. I saw my whole life flash before me including the smell of my grade 2 cloakroom. I think this was my brains last ditch attempt to find a solution in a hurry. But some nice person dragged me out of the water and brought me back to life and here I am. Maybe I get to return the favour now. I'll keep my eye out for you. Remember, the main thing we want to avoid is all dying at the same time. That would be really bad. So get out there and save some kid, even if it kills you. It is the best way to go.

As a long time lifeguard and waterman, believe me when I tell you that whatever it was you experienced, it wasn't drowning. Considering the number of lives recently lost in this manner, your fairytale is as insensitive as it is rediculous. Drowning ranks near the top of worst ways to die. I have expereinced near drowning no less than 3 times and it is beyond frightening and painful. It is no way to die. "Wasn't really that bad"..yeah, that's why the CIA emulates drowning (waterboarding) as a means of torture.

Are you sure it wasn't a baptismal you experienced?

[GentlemanJim]

IMO - It is only a matter of time before all of Bangkok gets flooded

No one in charge has a clue how to stop it or how to redirect the water

You are probably correct so why not offer them some advice or are you the same as those in charge? Not A clue on What to Do.

Back in 1958 we used to do this drill in our city in the middle of the Canadian prairies. The city air raid sirens would go off and we would all get under our desks and roll up into a ball. This was in case of an attack by the Soviet Union which of course would have involved atomic weapons. The mentality of authority has not changed. Even in Canada the big thing was to look good even when you knew that when these kids roll up in a ball the most realistic thing they can do is kiss their ass good bye.

In the last few days a large meteorite flew between the earth and the moon. Had it hit the earth it would have annihilated a large percentage of life on this planet and all we could do is watch it come. The flood would have become completely irrelevant.

There are lots of ways to die and old age is not necessarily the best. I drowned once and other than the initial panic it wasn't really that bad. I saw my whole life flash before me including the smell of my grade 2 cloakroom. I think this was my brains last ditch attempt to find a solution in a hurry. But some nice person dragged me out of the water and brought me back to life and here I am. Maybe I get to return the favour now. I'll keep my eye out for you. Remember, the main thing we want to avoid is all dying at the same time. That would be really bad. So get out there and save some kid, even if it kills you. It is the best way to go.

As a long time lifeguard and waterman, believe me when I tell you that whatever it was you experienced, it wasn't drowning. Considering the number of lives recently lost in this manner, your fairytale is as insensitive as it is rediculous. Drowning ranks near the top of worst ways to die. I have expereinced near drowning no less than 3 times and it is beyond frightening and painful. It is no way to die. "Wasn't really that bad"..yeah, that's why the CIA emulates drowning (waterboarding) as a means of torture.

Are you sure it wasn't a baptismal you experienced?

What a silly post. Why was Farangman's post 'insensitive'? He was relaying a personal event. How on earth do you know what it was he experienced? you weren't there. Just because near drowning was painful to you does not mean it may be to others, as ex military I can think of 1000 worse ways to die if you are going to try and 'rank it'. On a serious note as a 'lifeguard' that has nearly drowned three times, perhaps it is better you are well out of that particular profession now. It doesn't seem you were well suited to it.

[MESmith]

Anybody have Moses mobile number?

Unfortunately, the govt only has King Canute's

[cowslip]

It is hardly heartening to read that the people who are in charge can make comments as inane as this.......

"Asked whether flood water was about to swamp the heart of the capital, the city governor said, "It depends on whether more water will be entering Bangkok."

[Pinot]

Biggest scam in history. Funny considering it is accepted as real by the overwhelming majority of global climate oriented scientists. To claim it is a scam is just a cynical political position that has nothing do with science.

And to claim that a benign and essential trace gas is 'imperiling the world', as John Reilly, the co-director of MIT's Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change, said yesterday, is equally a cynical political position that has nothing do with science.

Truth is, the debate never was about science; most of the deep alarmism comes from dispossessed Marxists, who were homeless after the collapse of the USSR. The environment is the perfect cause to keep harassing the capitalists, so the global warming scam is, if you like, the downstream flooding from the defeat of Communism two decades ago.

Wow! There are some strange theories on this forum but this is the weirdest yet..... (that I have seen- you may know of another)

Too much Fox News.

[phetaroi]

It is hardly heartening to read that the people who are in charge can make comments as inane as this.......

"Asked whether flood water was about to swamp the heart of the capital, the city governor said, "It depends on whether more water will be entering Bangkok."

Or you can look at it as one of the few statements made by Thai politicians that is actually correct.

[robint]

Has anyone noticed the deafening silence from Mr YKW who does not appear to be up front helping his poor unfortunate supporters with food and water from his plunder chest.

No headline grabbing even given the ardent support he gets from the media.

I cant look at the pix anymore of those poor people who will be swamped for months

Even if i were allowed to comment on the collective selfish incompetence you would not need any embellishment from me

I wonder what measures have been taken in the inevitable event of water born disease breaking out?

I suppose the kee will really hit the patlom

BTW

Any of you concerned readers know anything about other third world floods on this scale eg Bangladesh recently?

pls add your info on how it plays out

Robin

" homes of more than 20,000 people have been completely destroyed by the floodwaters with another 84,000 homes partially damaged.

The magnitude of a flood in 1998 was such that it lasted for over 70 days, which caused many in Bangladesh to question the effectiveness of previous flood control measures "

http://thewatchers.a...lace-thousands/

Thanks for that insight - its what I feared

The shear volume of upstrem water to be drained south means a similar 70-100 days of misery for the poor residents

[tropo]

It is hardly heartening to read that the people who are in charge can make comments as inane as this.......

"Asked whether flood water was about to swamp the heart of the capital, the city governor said, "It depends on whether more water will be entering Bangkok."

He gave an honest answer.

I think it's more inane to think that anyone should really have a clue about how a 50 year flood of this magnitude should unfold. There are too many variables and that is just the way it is - an act of God that no one had prepared for.

[travelmann]

It is hardly heartening to read that the people who are in charge can make comments as inane as this.......

"Asked whether flood water was about to swamp the heart of the capital, the city governor said, "It depends on whether more water will be entering Bangkok."

He gave an honest answer.

I think it's more inane to think that anyone should really have a clue about how a 50 year flood of this magnitude should unfold. There are too many variables and that is just the way it is - an act of God that no one had prepared for.

Its not an act of god its an act of stupidity, building on flood plains cutting down trees damming water etc etc etc

[tropo]

It is hardly heartening to read that the people who are in charge can make comments as inane as this.......

"Asked whether flood water was about to swamp the heart of the capital, the city governor said, "It depends on whether more water will be entering Bangkok."

He gave an honest answer.

I think it's more inane to think that anyone should really have a clue about how a 50 year flood of this magnitude should unfold. There are too many variables and that is just the way it is - an act of God that no one had prepared for.

Its not an act of god its an act of stupidity, building on flood plains cutting down trees damming water etc etc etc

No, it's a catastrophic 50 year flood. A similar Act of God would have caught everyone off guard in any country. People build on flood plains, rivers, beaches, earthquake faults, near volcanoes etc etc everywhere on the planet. Using your logic most of the world's inhabitants are stupid.

Edited November 6, 2011 by tropo

[MESmith]

It is hardly heartening to read that the people who are in charge can make comments as inane as this.......

"Asked whether flood water was about to swamp the heart of the capital, the city governor said, "It depends on whether more water will be entering Bangkok."

He gave an honest answer.

I think it's more inane to think that anyone should really have a clue about how a 50 year flood of this magnitude should unfold. There are too many variables and that is just the way it is - an act of God that no one had prepared for.

Its not an act of god its an act of stupidity, building on flood plains cutting down trees damming water etc etc etc

No, it's a catastrophic 50 year flood. A similar Act of God would have caught everyone off guard in any country. People build on flood plains, rivers, beaches, earthquake faults, near volcanoes etc etc everywhere on the planet. Using your logic most of the world's inhabitants are stupid.

No, it's bad management of water resources. The warning signs should have been acted upon back in May & June, when excessive rainfall was filling the dams up north & insufficient release occurred.

[JetsetBkk]

No, it's bad management of water resources. The warning signs should have been acted upon back in May & June, when excessive rainfall was filling the dams up north & insufficient release occurred.

+1

Plus the klongs and canals should be kept clear all year, every year, dredged as necessary, and the Chao Phraya should be constantly dredged too.

But that involves forward planning.

Maybe next year. Maybe not.

[phaethon]

Using your logic most of the world's inhabitants are stupid.

Ah, at last someone else gets it

[ResX]

It is hardly heartening to read that the people who are in charge can make comments as inane as this.......

"Asked whether flood water was about to swamp the heart of the capital, the city governor said, "It depends on whether more water will be entering Bangkok."

He gave an honest answer.

I think it's more inane to think that anyone should really have a clue about how a 50 year flood of this magnitude should unfold. There are too many variables and that is just the way it is - an act of God that no one had prepared for.

It won't be a big problem to know the biggest flood in 50 years for any river basin. Note that RID has the flood data for Chao Phraya catchment for at least 50 years by now. The simplest way to know the biggest flood in 50 years is by looking the past 50 years statistical data.

When engineers designed Bhumibol dam they had to determined the biggest flood in 10,000 years to ensure they know the correct sizes for all spillway structures. On top of that they used this information to design the main dam structure to hold intact under such intense flood flow. They should able to tell you flood intensity over the given duration as a function of its return probability. If they didn't many experts can reconstruct back such relationship.

Let me estimate the biggest flood in 50 years for Chao Phraya catchment using the normal method used by the dams designers for my country. You are expecting 17-20billion cubic meter of water that falls in 7 days.

There was a report from Dutch water management expert that I have come across dated around March 2011 for Bangkok. The Dutch expert suggested that Bangkok is only protected against the biggest flood in 100 years. I would say this expert knew what he was talking about. He said that having flood control structure that is only capable to deal with the flood that has return probability of 1 in 100 years is inadequate for a big town such as Bangkok. I presume he included the flood risk from the north as well to come to this conclusion.

In this case the flood that has completely beaten all the flood defensive systems that are in place around Chao Phraya catchment could not be the biggest in 50 years. Therefore, I expected 7-day rainfall intensity was higher than 17 billion cubic meter. Otherwise the flood is all about water management issue or the combination of water management issue and out of design flood event.

As far as the Bhumibol dam is concern the flood appeared to be very big......

[phetaroi]

Experts are not needed, any student of physical geography knows the answer, equally any student of Thai culture knows they would never implement it.

The middle and lower reaches of the river are a series of meanders, this is typical of flat land. So in normal flow the water slowly meanders down to the sea. But when in full spate it is like a car that tries to take a bend too fast and goes off the road, the water does the same it can't follow the meander and overflows. In a natural environment the water will carve out a new more direct channel, the original meander is cut off and forms an "oxbow lake".

What Thailand has to do is work with nature, not wait hundreds of years for the river to straighten itself out, rather it needs to dig a straight channel through every meander.

However, this cannot happen because looking at the map you can see that every meander has been extensively developed with housing estates, high rise condos, hotels, department stores and factories, even an airport, many would have to go to clear a channel. But most of this development was by the elite, the rich, they would fight any such clearance tooth and nail.

So Bangkok is doomed because the cure is too draconian for those in power to stomach. I don't care which party is in power, none would have the guts to do what needs doing.

Gotta correct you a little. Rivers at or near base level (which the Chao Phrya is) don't straighten themselves out over time. The meanders continue to move over time, thus forming an oxbow lake when the river cuts through the narrow part of a meander. However, meanders continue to develop, just not in the same spot.

[Rinrada]

Can happen anywhere....once upon a time not so many weeks ago......

[stoneyboy]

1320604069[/url]' post='4827501']

Can happen anywhere....once upon a time not so many weeks ago......

These are flash flood's not prolonged and inundation that we are seeing in Thailand,you are wrong,when was the last time London showed signs of this type of flooding,it hasn't due to the fact that the govt has invested money in the Thames barrier,the govt of Thailand does not invest money in problems such as this per se

[KeyserSoze01]

People seem to underestimate the power of the sun to simply evaporate a lot of the water, it wont stay forever.

Quite correct, although how long will it take to evaporate 1.5 meters of water covering 1/3 of the country?

And just how high above water is BKK,without the floods?

I have read that BKK is 1 meter above sea level. This of course will vary with slight elevation change.

I was talking about global warming, not climate change - two separate things.

Chicken vs Egg. One is a direct result of the other.

Right, when you look at satellite photos, it's hard to imagine that the coffee saucer of Bangkok won't be totally inundated. It appears impossible to rationalize that the powers to be didn't know this,

But, is not Thai satellite, so no believe.

Also, I don't believe many Thais have the ability to rationalize cause vs effect.

[Rinrada]

1320604069[/url]' post='4827501']

Can happen anywhere....once upon a time not so many weeks ago......

These are flash flood's not prolonged and inundation that we are seeing in Thailand,you are wrong,when was the last time London showed signs of this type of flooding,it hasn't due to the fact that the govt has invested money in the Thames barrier,the govt of Thailand does not invest money in problems such as this per se

Still a FLOOD and lessons must be learnt ...took our "sunshine boys" long enough and now talking about NEW barriers...just in case

North Sea flood of 1953

North Sea flood

Aftermath of the flood in Oude-Tonge, Goeree-Overflakkee, Netherlands

Duration: 31 January - 1 February 1953

Fatalities: 2,551 killed

Damages: 9% of total Dutch farmland flooded, 30,000 animals drowned, 47,300 buildings damaged of which 10,000 destroyed

Areas affected: Netherlands, Belgium, United Kingdom

The 1953 North Sea flood was a major flood caused by a heavy storm, that occurred on the night of Saturday 31 January 1953 and morning of 1 February 1953. (My Birthday)

The floods struck the Netherlands, Belgium, England and Scotland.

A combination of a high spring tide and a severe European windstorm caused a storm tide. In combination with a tidal surge of the North Sea the water level locally exceeded 5.6 metres (18.4 ft) above mean sea level.

The flood and waves overwhelmed sea defences and caused extensive flooding. The Netherlands, a country that is partly located below mean sea level and relies heavily on sea defences, was mainly affected, recording 1,836 deaths. Most of these casualties occurred in the southern province of Zeeland.

In England, 307 people were killed in the counties of Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex. 28 were killed in West Flanders, Belgium.

Further loss of life exceeding 230 occurred on watercraft along Northern European coasts as well as in deeper waters of the North Sea; the ferry MV Princess Victoria was lost at sea in the North Channel east of Belfast with 133 fatalities, and many fishing trawlers sank.

amended...

[ding]

There are still man made global climate change deniers? Hilarious.

I guess it pays the rent...

[losworld]

It is hardly heartening to read that the people who are in charge can make comments as inane as this.......

"Asked whether flood water was about to swamp the heart of the capital, the city governor said, "It depends on whether more water will be entering Bangkok."

He gave an honest answer.

I think it's more inane to think that anyone should really have a clue about how a 50 year flood of this magnitude should unfold. There are too many variables and that is just the way it is - an act of God that no one had prepared for.

No, it's a catastrophic 50 year flood. A similar Act of God would have caught everyone off guard in any country. People build on flood plains, rivers, beaches, earthquake faults, near volcanoes etc etc everywhere on the planet. Using your logic most of the world's inhabitants are stupid.

Precipitation apparently only exceeding normal by 20-30 percent not double or triple... no doubt a contributing factor but what about those dams they left full all year???

Its not an act of god its an act of stupidity, building on flood plains cutting down trees damming water etc etc etc

Edited November 6, 2011 by losworld

[BarryM]

The scale of the disaster is and will continue revealing itself to a group of incompetent politicians and experts, whose only qualification was being born with the right family connections.

The strains that will be placed upon Thai society will, I fear, test it beyond breaking point on all levels. Mediacl, social, political and economic. The propensity for this flood to precipitate unimaginable disorder and chaos is overlooked by micro focusing on the flood's causes and short fix remedies.

In short, this could turn nasty - really, really nasty.

[RichardL]

Can happen anywhere....once upon a time not so many weeks ago......

These are flash flood's not prolonged and inundation that we are seeing in Thailand,you are wrong,when was the last time London showed signs of this type of flooding,it hasn't due to the fact that the govt has invested money in the Thames barrier,the govt of Thailand does not invest money in problems such as this per se

The Thames Barrier offers no protection at all against floodwater from inland. It's just to stop the odd exceptionally high tidal surge. If England was hit by such a proportionally high rainfall, London would flood badly.

The big difference is that the waters run much faster and even bad floods only last about a week. If that was the case in Thailand then the waters would not have accumulated so badly.

There not a great deal anyone can do about that though. All that can be done is get the drainage system up to the drainage level quoted last month (around 450 million cubic m per day) instead of the figure of about 300 million, which seems to be the actual level now. Shipping out another 150 million a day would have made a considerable difference.

[nurofiend]

The scale of the disaster is and will continue revealing itself to a group of incompetent politicians and experts, whose only qualification was being born with the right family connections.

The strains that will be placed upon Thai society will, I fear, test it beyond breaking point on all levels. Mediacl, social, political and economic. The propensity for this flood to precipitate unimaginable disorder and chaos is overlooked by micro focusing on the flood's causes and short fix remedies.

In short, this could turn nasty - really, really nasty.

somewhat agreed, and i think the possibility of things turning extremely nasty has been a long(ish) time coming.

i also believe there is incompetence on both sides... and in a non biased, honestly, hand on heart opinion, i truly don't think this crisis would have been handled much better by any Thai political party.

Of course that's completely unprovable and disprovable but it's my genuine view on this.

[Siam Simon]

No, it's bad management of water resources. The warning signs should have been acted upon back in May & June, when excessive rainfall was filling the dams up north & insufficient release occurred.

+1

Plus the klongs and canals should be kept clear all year, every year, dredged as necessary, and the Chao Phraya should be constantly dredged too.

But that involves forward planning.

Maybe next year. Maybe not.

+2

Great username and avatar btw (to the op).

[anon8]

i also believe there is incompetence on both sides... and in a non biased, honestly, hand on heart opinion, i truly don't think this crisis would have been handled much better by any Thai political party.

Spoken like a true Protestant!

[tropo]

It won't be a big problem to know the biggest flood in 50 years for any river basin. Note that RID has the flood data for Chao Phraya catchment for at least 50 years by now. The simplest way to know the biggest flood in 50 years is by looking the past 50 years statistical data.

It's not quite as simple as you may think. For example, a 50 year flood may not come around in 200 years. It's only a 50 year flood in hindsight. Next year we may get a 200 year flood and the year after a 100 year flood. These floods don't work to a clock, you know.

[anon8]

They keep calling it a 50 year flood? But isn't this the worst flood ever as far as Bangkok?