Clinton Offers Flood Help To Thailand

[Nisa]

Japan (Tsunami) and the USA (Katrina) both refused aid during their huge disasters

Facts are better than guesses.......

Mexican Army delivering aid to Katrina victims.

Canadian Navy ships loading up aid supplies to deliver.

French & British aid arrives

According to the European Commission, one week after the disaster, on September 4, 2005, the United States officially asked the European Union for emergency help, asking for blankets, emergency medical kits, water and 500,000 food rations for victims. Help proposed by EU member states was coordinated through their crisis center. The British presidency of the EU functioned as contact with the USA.

http://en.wikipedia....rricane_Katrina

Unless by taking these words WAY out of context to imply I stated they refused ALL aid which is something in my posts was very clear not being said, then I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say..

Are you saying the US and Japan didn't refuse aid offered? You don't even have to go beyond the ThaiVisa Forum to find Japan not only declined aid offered but declined medical aid from Thailand.

Overseas Katrina aid rejected by America

(There are 77 recorded offers made from three of America's strongest allies: Britain, Canada and Israel. However, 54 of those offers were declined)

http://www.finalcall...icle_3584.shtml

Japan Declines Most Offers Of Relief Aid

(Out of 102 offers for help from different countries, the Japanese government only accepted 15). ...

http://www.npr.org/2...Japan-Donations

Even in the Wiki link you provided it states:

Below is a list of countries who offered aid. Some of these efforts were not formally accepted by the U.S. government

Am I not understanding your point?

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[inquisitive]

You don't think Thailand should accept any assistance if it is possible for Thailand to somehow get by without it, even if it means that Thai citizens must die by the hundreds. <SNIP>

What you don't seem to get is taking assistance that one doesn't need in a crisis it can greatly hurt people and the relief efforts. As mentioned numerous times on this thread, countries often decline assistance during a catastrophe for this reason.

But most of what you are saying would be pointless to respond to as it is clear you are imagining I said or even implied things I didn't. I am not sure what your motivation is to want to "argue" about such a thing especially now that the facts are in that Thailand did take aid that was helpful from the US and it was the aid that BOTH the US and Thailand believed what was needed.

Bottom line is Thailand has been accepting aid from countless sources but clearly what they did not need nor did they request is a Foreign Military Nuclear Aircraft Carrier despite how much you believe they should have one thrown in the mix.

Yep. As expected. You simply refused to address the fundamental questions I posed, and instead tried to divert attention from all your previous posts. Why run away from a simple and direct request to clearly state your position? I have to believe that you were not comfortable with what would have come out, and that's OK. We understand.

No one has disagreed with your sentiment that there are times when misguided help can be an interference. I did, however ask you why you felt that help from an aircraft carrier was different from aid sent by mail and I an still waiting to learn. You started calling it Military Aid from a Foreign Military Power, but I asked you directly why one of your less fortunate countrymen would prefer death over receiving such humanitarian assistance. In fact, I even asked yo uwhy you would consider bottles of clean water to be military aid? I'm still interested in your answer.

Are you aware that the Thai military DID graciously accept the offer of assistance while the politicians did not? Are you also aware that the Thai military are getting increasing credit for their work in this disaster even as Miss Y's government seems to be getting bashed on all sides for its horrific mismanagement? Under the circumstances, it isn't hard to believe that the politicians acted for political reasons. So far it appears that the only real reason to turn down the assistance was the potential loss of face that the government might have to accept vis-a-vis their own military, and the only real reason for your attempts to divert away from this seeming fact is similar. At least I can console myself that in your case it has not resulted in loss of lives and livelihoods.

[BuckarooBanzai]

I am glad as an American we are going to help. I am sure there will be the usual American bashing that accompanies every thread of this nature but I don't see anyone else spending the kind of cash the US spends on aid around the world.

I am also am American and while I welcome the visit of Mrs Clinton, we should never deceive ourselves that we are more generous in terms of aid to developing countries than others. We definitely have military and logistical capabilities that others can not match. But as a percentage of GDP our foreign aid is sorely lacking

I just found this site with a quick search, and I think that this page gives some perspective on this (I have really no idea about the rest of the site I have never seen it before).....

http://www.vexen.co.uk/countries/charity.html

This is in no way US bashing. I won't get into any of the political issues about aid to Israel, Egypt and Pakistan. Let's just hope that the US can help the Thai government and the Thai people to make life better as so many are suffering in the flooding right now. We could certainly use the help from a friend.

This is off the same link you provided:

The American people are actually no less generous than those of other developed countries. By comparing aid as a percent of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) you measure the amount of aid that is given by individuals. On this scale, Americans look angelic . . .

Aid is a combination of both government and citizenry but is generally listed only according to the governmental contributions.

[Markaew]

What do they want in return?

or is it just to show dumb people that america is such a great country that helps everyone.

I remember when i was a kid and i always thought americans were the good guys. How wrong was i.

Are you so full of hate that you can not appreciate a gesture of friendship and compassion? I don't see Russia or China offering this assistance. What of the oil rich arab countries?

Is it so hard to be appreciative of a positive gesture? America may not be perfect, but I'll take its imperfections any day of the week over the predictable harshness of Russia, China and many other nations.

Fortunately, you do not speak for the tens of thousands that will benefit from the US aid.

Wow. Thats a typical reply from a brainwashed "america is great" person.

I suggest you stop watching or reading mainstream media. You never know you might learn a thing or two.

Easy to resolve. Reject America's money and help.

[dduval99]

I'm disappointed by this thread.

from the title I thought it would be about Bill Clinton wanting to visit Soi Cowboy to personally distribute some baht to the girls there whose families upcountry are flooded......

Fell of my chair laughing at this. Good old banter! You cant beat it!!!

[rotary]

Hillary Clinton coming to help? Thats a bit of an

oxymoron

Edited November 11, 2011 by metisdead
Font resized.

[ancientmariner]

The US Navy initially sent an aircraft carrier but it left after American officials said that Thailand's powerful military did not request assistance.

The AFP is repeating its previous statements (with slight enhancements here) which were debunked by the American Ambassador already.

the Ambassador is a DIPLOMAT and avoided the Thai government losing face (AGAIN?) The fact is that the US Navy did not get response/request and left as the press release from the US Navy HQ in Hawaii stated. The Navy is not as diplomatic and can state facts.

[Markaew]

I'm disappointed by this thread.

from the title I thought it would be about Bill Clinton wanting to visit Soi Cowboy to personally distribute some baht to the girls there whose families upcountry are flooded......

My thoughts exactly. I'd say it's a safe bet Hilary is not going to let Slick Willy anywhere near Thailand.

Hillary doesn't care. She comes here for the women too!

[ancientmariner]

What do they want in return?

or is it just to show dumb people that america is such a great country that helps everyone.

I remember when i was a kid and i always thought americans were the good guys. How wrong was i.

I'll second that.

if it would not be for the Americans (and other Western countries) in the second WW, you would be either speaking Japanese now or German.....mmmm...short memory and barking up the wrong tree.....

[maiphedmaiaroi]

Educate us on what the American intentions are. Seriously, rather then just talking shit and implying there's something sinister going on when someone else is offering to help, why don't you tell us?

Im not bashing americans. I have met a few good ones but its there goverments intentions that are very worriying. Thank god Thailand doesnt have lots of oil

I tried but my post got deleted for some reason?

No point trying to educate you again as this isnt a free speech forum and when i type the truth someone will do the same for some unknown reason.

Educate yourself is all i can say. Good luck.

[maiphedmaiaroi]

What do they want in return?

or is it just to show dumb people that america is such a great country that helps everyone.

I remember when i was a kid and i always thought americans were the good guys. How wrong was i.

I'll second that.

if it would not be for the Americans (and other Western countries) in the second WW, you would be either speaking Japanese now or German.....mmmm...short memory and barking up the wrong tree.....

Thats the best reply yet.

Amazing.

Edited November 11, 2011 by maiphedmaiaroi

[Markaew]

Why are people still posting about the big US boat? It's been like 3 weeks since that "story" came out. The floodwater wouldn't be deep enough for it to float in anyway.

Everyone is better off it goes back to launching missiles at Kabul or Tripoli or wherever.

You could use 'big US boat' instead of the 1000 boats considered by the thai expert to move the water down the canals.

[cdnvic]

Unless by taking these words WAY out of context to imply I stated they refused ALL aid which is something in my posts was very clear not being said, then I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say..

Are you saying the US and Japan didn't refuse aid offered? You don't even have to go beyond the ThaiVisa Forum to find Japan not only declined aid offered but declined medical aid from Thailand.

But it's misleading to state that they refused aid. Countries offering aid normally present the country facing disaster with proposals of what aid they are able and willing to give, and the recipient nation then advises what, if any of the available offers they will accept based on their needs.

It's like when I went to the supermarket yesterday. I bought some rib steaks because I needed some beef. I didn't refuse to buy chicken or pork, I just didn't need them, so to describe it as a refusal would be misleading.

[metisdead]

An inflammatory post has been removed.

[Nisa]

Yep. As expected. You simply refused to address the fundamental questions I posed, and instead tried to divert attention from all your previous posts. Why run away from a simple and direct request to clearly state your position? I have to believe that you were not comfortable with what would have come out, and that's OK. We understand.

No one has disagreed with your sentiment that there are times when misguided help can be an interference. I did, however ask you why you felt that help from an aircraft carrier was different from aid sent by mail and I an still waiting to learn. You started calling it Military Aid from a Foreign Military Power, but I asked you directly why one of your less fortunate countrymen would prefer death over receiving such humanitarian assistance. In fact, I even asked yo uwhy you would consider bottles of clean water to be military aid? I'm still interested in your answer.

Are you aware that the Thai military DID graciously accept the offer of assistance while the politicians did not? Are you also aware that the Thai military are getting increasing credit for their work in this disaster even as Miss Y's government seems to be getting bashed on all sides for its horrific mismanagement? Under the circumstances, it isn't hard to believe that the politicians acted for political reasons. So far it appears that the only real reason to turn down the assistance was the potential loss of face that the government might have to accept vis-a-vis their own military, and the only real reason for your attempts to divert away from this seeming fact is similar. At least I can console myself that in your case it has not resulted in loss of lives and livelihoods.

As for your questions...

I asked you directly why one of your less fortunate countrymen would prefer death over receiving such humanitarian assistance.

Ridiculous question as you are asking me to answer why somebody else would prefer anything when the options you are giving were not even options or something I implied even in the absolute most tiny way.

I even asked yo uwhy you would consider bottles of clean water to be military aid?

If the water is coming from and being handed out by the military it is military aid.

Are you aware that the Thai military DID graciously accept the offer of assistance while the

politicians

did not?

You are asking me to answer if I knew something occurred that didn't. The Thai government did received aid from the US including boats, water pumps as well as helicopter support for aerial photography.

Are you also aware that the Thai military are getting increasing credit for their work in this disaster even as Miss Y's government seems to be getting bashed on all sides for its horrific mismanagement?

Yes, I've read the newspapers reporting and am also aware it is the government who is dictating the military's role and responsibilities. And I appreciate the question because it clearly shows why you are so motivated to not be reasonable about why the aircraft carrier left.

Have you watched the below video? I guess the bigger question would be would watching it still allow you to not let the facts get in the way of your need to attack the current government despite if it makes good or bad decision.

Just an FYI, we've gone at this long enough and I won't be answering your questions anymore as they serve no purpose in my mind except to continue to get further off topic and continue to disagree about something we clearly will never see eye to eye about..

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Unless by taking these words WAY out of context to imply I stated they refused ALL aid which is something in my posts was very clear not being said, then I am not sure I understand what you are trying to say..

Are you saying the US and Japan didn't refuse aid offered? You don't even have to go beyond the ThaiVisa Forum to find Japan not only declined aid offered but declined medical aid from Thailand.

But it's misleading to state that they refused aid. Countries offering aid normally present the country facing disaster with proposals of what aid they are able and willing to give, and the recipient nation then advises what, if any of the available offers they will accept based on their needs.

It's like when I went to the supermarket yesterday. I bought some rib steaks because I needed some beef. I didn't refuse to buy chicken or pork, I just didn't need them, so to describe it as a refusal would be misleading.

I really don't believe I was being misleading but certainly I had no intention of being misleading. Okay, maybe "rejecting" or "refusing" offers of aid are strong (but accurate) words and we can just say that both the US and Japan 'passed" on aid offer. In fact,, as shown in the links I provided both Japan and the US passed on more aid offered from countries than they accepted.

Is that what the issue is ... the word "reject' ? If so, then I can understand your point especially if you are not seeing the debate and point I was trying to make in the big context of the debate.

I only used it because I got caught up in other posters using the word to describe Thailand "rejecting" US aid (aircraft carrier), and was simply pointing out that this is similar and a common occurrence by countries during a disaster.

Edit: You supermarket analogy is a bit off as it has you being the aid giver and aid recipient. To be accurate the store would have needed to "pass" on your being a non-beef customer that day. Had you insisted then they would have "refused"

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[cdnvic]

Ok, fair enough.

[KHR1010]

Im not bashing americans. I have met a few good ones but its there goverments intentions that are very worriying. Thank god Thailand doesnt have lots of oil

In your initial post your refereed to "americans." If it is the U.S. Government you hate, then say so and others will not criticize you erroneously for the subject of your bashing.

Interesting your judgement of others as "dumb" comes just after your post full of grammar and spelling errors!

G'day mate

[Publicus]

Im not bashing americans. I have met a few good ones but its there goverments intentions that are very worriying. Thank god Thailand doesnt have lots of oil

Oil?!?

The CCP in Beijing woulda been here already.

[Publicus]

That's right, and the Russians told them to get stuffed. That would have been a severe loss of face allowing America to help Russia.

Whatever people say or think about the US, they are always in there with aid during an emergency. They even offered the Russians assistance with recovery of the Kursk some years back.

And continuing assistance since Chernobyl.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Publicus

[macgver]

Welcome Mrs. Clinton to Thailand and I can sense that you are a strong supporter to the current PM. Hope that you both can help to rebuild the economy and social welfare here.

[scotbeve]

I am glad as an American we are going to help. I am sure there will be the usual American bashing that accompanies every thread of this nature but I don't see anyone else spending the kind of cash the US spends on aid around the world.

+100

[Publicus]

Im not bashing americans. I have met a few good ones but its there goverments intentions that are very worriying. Thank god Thailand doesnt have lots of oil

In your initial post your refereed to "americans." If it is the U.S. Government you hate, then say so and others will not criticize you erroneously for the subject of your bashing.

Interesting your judgement of others as "dumb" comes just after your post full of grammar and spelling errors!

G'day mate

I just had a thought I'd hadn't had in years and years - what about Canada in all of this?

[surangw]

whatever assistance America provides , some will still say " not enough"

[erobando]

But it's misleading to state that they refused aid. Countries offering aid normally present the country facing disaster with proposals of what aid they are able and willing to give, and the recipient nation then advises what, if any of the available offers they will accept based on their needs.

It's like when I went to the supermarket yesterday. I bought some rib steaks because I needed some beef. I didn't refuse to buy chicken or pork, I just didn't need them, so to describe it as a refusal would be misleading.

Why did you refuse chicken? What's wrong with chicken? Once 20 years ago you wee hungry and you ate some chicken and then you felt better... if it wasn't for the chicken, you'd be speaking hungry duck.

BTW, I'm going to post every day for the next month about how you foolish you were to refuse chicken.

[harryfrompattaya]

What do they want in return?

or is it just to show dumb people that america is such a great country that helps everyone.

I remember when i was a kid and i always thought americans were the good guys. How wrong was i.

I'll second that.

You are right China and Russia feed the World for the last 70 years.

Tell us more.

[thrilled]

Thailand and the US have been very good to each other throughout the years.I imagine the US will do as much as it can to help Thailand.

[Nisa]

If the water is coming from and being handed out by the military it is military aid.

Are you joking?! That's one of the dumbest things I've seen in a while.

The Thai government did received aid from the US including boats, water pumps as well as helicopter support for aerial photography.

Yes, it did receive aid. But apparently not the aid being discussed (that of the USSGW). I'm sure you aren't being deliberately disingenuous...

Hmmm, if US Military personnel make drinking water on a US Military Carrier and then distribute this water via US Military personnel and US Military Helicopters I can't see how anybody in their right mind would not call this Aid from the Military or Military Aid. You should write the the military in the US and tell them to stop taking credit for their efforts during Katrina because clearly their was no military aid then either. Geez, how far will you go to be argumentative and attack another poster?

Clearly you have not caught up with the facts. It wasn't only the USSGW that arrived that day and they did in fact provide boats and water pumps as well as leaving ships behind. There was NO OFFER OF HELP DECLINED. Both the US and Thailand discussed what was needed and what could be provided and then it was done. Obviously neither the US nor Thailand felt a US nuclear aircraft carrier would be beneficial to the operations.

[Nisa]

Japan (Tsunami) and the USA (Katrina) both refused aid during their huge disasters.

Incorrect... Japan did accept help from the US for the Tsunami. At least 110 tonnes of relief goods were delivered by the US Navy. Remember the US has bases in Japan and the locals were grateful for the assistance.

The USA did accept aid for Katrina.

Where did I ever make a claim they refuse all aid? Both countries passed on the majority of offers of aid but they did take aid and I never implied they didn't it accept any aid and in fact was clear in stating in my posts (not just the partial sentence you are quoting) that the issue was about declining offers of aid that the government felt was not needed or would be more trouble than they are worth.

Reposting links ...

Overseas Katrina aid rejected by America

(There are 77 recorded offers made from three of America's strongest allies: Britain, Canada and Israel. However, 54 of those offers were declined)

http://www.finalcall...icle_3584.shtml

Japan Declines Most Offers Of Relief Aid

(Out of 102 offers for help from different countries, the Japanese government only accepted 15). ...

http://www.npr.org/2...Japan-Donations

It is really not hard to understand that unneeded or unwanted aid only causes considerably more problems for a country during a disaster.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Nisa

[Jingthing]

Welcome Mrs. Clinton to Thailand and I can sense that you are a strong supporter to the current PM. Hope that you both can help to rebuild the economy and social welfare here.

I can sense a bunch of BS. The same goodwill gesture would be made under any Thai regime.