No Hope For Democracy If Backing For Army Rule Continues: Thailand

[Nickymaster]

The problem is not so much the army, but the poor caliber of politicians that Thailand produces. The people accept the role of the army because deep down they know the people they elect to office (Chalerm, Suthep, Jatuporn being prime examples) are utter fools. Until the quality of MPs improves their will be no hope for Thai democracy.

Todays news of the secretive cabinet meeting to grant the boss amnesty is a case in point of the manipulation of politics and the poor judgement of Thai MPs. Should the army sit back and let the civilian population go for each others jugular or intervene? Because we all know the situation which is on the horizon and fast approaching.

Bravo!

Without the army's involvement this country would have been in an even bigger mess because all these self-serving politicians only care about their "own" people and pockets.

[animatic]

The problem is not so much the army, but the poor caliber of politicians that Thailand produces. The people accept the role of the army because deep down they know the people they elect to office (Chalerm, Suthep, Jatuporn being prime examples) are utter fools. Until the quality of MPs improves their will be no hope for Thai democracy.

Todays news of the secretive cabinet meeting to grant the boss amnesty is a case in point of the manipulation of politics and the poor judgement of Thai MPs. Should the army sit back and let the civilian population go for each others jugular or intervene? Because we all know the situation which is on the horizon and fast approaching.

This sums up the problem right there.

The ONLY reason the army has and backing for this is the abysmal cesspool that is the Thai political system.

If the rules could be successfully tightened up and politicians and graft monkeys prosecuted, and not simple wrist slapped or sent to inactive position, then there might be reason to believe the army is no long needed as a countervailing force to civilian corruption. ( not to say the army has no corruption in it's corners)

Until then sad to say the army will be there at the least as a threat to the incompetent and vastly too greedy in office.

[animatic]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

Very true but do you know any? I don't.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Winston Churchill

Exactly.

[DocN]

What Democracy?

Better a coup than these criminals in power

Even supporters at the time of the last coup now recognise it brought nothing but disaster for Thailand.I wonder why you think it would be different this time.

Your reference to the government's "criminality" is probably defamation so I should be a little more careful in your language

Incidentally probably best in the interests of full disclosure to admit you were an open supporter of PAD and attended their rallies.

What disaster was brought to Thailand by the coup?

Please explain!

Yes I support what the PAD does, fighting for democracy and against corruption. What is wrong with that?

Stating the words "PAD" and "democracy" in one sentence is almost obscene!

70% of the parliament announced and 30% elected...how the hell is that democracy?

The Army did a good job in helping flood victims, but as I stated elsewhere: it is their job!

Thailand is no democracy! Period!

And as long as the educational system is not changed into educating people to think, to plan, to ask questions, to see problems, to find solutions...it will never be.

The powers that be (and I do not only mean the current government) will do everything to prevent that from happening...and most Thais I know, are not even interested. They like to be "ruled" and don't want to take any responsibility.

So why don't we stop pretending, that "democracy" will EVER work in this country!?

[daninthai]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

Hear, hear.

Too many people have bought into the American propaganda machine that democracy is the only form of government people should hope for. What good is democracy if it is corrupt to the core? What good is democracy if the people being elected, and those doing the voting are too stupid to know how to achieve success?

What Thailand needs more than 'democracy at all costs' is a government that is capable of stopping corruption and not giving in to calls from the mob to bring financial ruin upon the country. Maybe the military can do that, maybe they can't. Certainly they too are corrupt, but if they are less corrupt than the government at any time, they owe Thailand a coup.

[Thaddeus]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

Very true but do you know any? I don't.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill was a moron.

I wish I was half the moron he was.

[Buchholz]

What Democracy?

Better a coup than these criminals in power

Even supporters at the time of the last coup now recognise it brought nothing but disaster for Thailand.I wonder why you think it would be different this time.

Your reference to the government's "criminality" is probably defamation so I should be a little more careful in your language

Incidentally probably best in the interests of full disclosure to admit you were an open supporter of PAD and attended their rallies.

What disaster was brought to Thailand by the coup?

Please explain!

Yes I support what the PAD does, fighting for democracy and against corruption. What is wrong with that?

Stating the words "PAD" and "democracy" in one sentence is almost obscene!

70% of the parliament announced and 30% elected...how the hell is that democracy?

That old chestnut discredited misrepresentation has been tossed out in months, but I see it hasn't been given up on.

.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Buchholz

[sparebox2]

What Democracy?

Better a coup than these criminals in power

Even supporters at the time of the last coup now recognise it brought nothing but disaster for Thailand.I wonder why you think it would be different this time.

Your reference to the government's "criminality" is probably defamation so I should be a little more careful in your language

Incidentally probably best in the interests of full disclosure to admit you were an open supporter of PAD and attended their rallies.

What disaster was brought to Thailand by the coup?

Please explain!

Yes I support what the PAD does, fighting for democracy and against corruption. What is wrong with that?

Stating the words "PAD" and "democracy" in one sentence is almost obscene!

70% of the parliament announced and 30% elected...how the hell is that democracy?

The Army did a good job in helping flood victims, but as I stated elsewhere: it is their job!

Thailand is no democracy! Period!

And as long as the educational system is not changed into educating people to think, to plan, to ask questions, to see problems, to find solutions...it will never be.

The powers that be (and I do not only mean the current government) will do everything to prevent that from happening...and most Thais I know, are not even interested. They like to be "ruled" and don't want to take any responsibility.

So why don't we stop pretending, that "democracy" will EVER work in this country!?

"PAD" represents "democracy". Go wiki it out.

[sparebox2]

What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists ..... PADME AMIDALA

[DocN]

"PAD" represents "democracy". Go wiki it out.

...because it has a "D" in it?

[DocN]

"

That old chestnut discredited misrepresentation has been tossed out in months, but I see it hasn't been given up on."

Good...I believe that, because they stated it...and from now on, you will believe that it is NOT PT's main priority to bring Thaksin back, because they stated that.

Deal?

.

[garrfeild]

The army have got out there and done their job helping people. They've barely said a word about anything.

How is that "reinforcing the view that they are a state within a state" or "establishing a firm role in politics"?

I'm sure you (Pravit) would have preferred they stayed in their barracks just so you could write an article complaining about how they don't want to help the people.

Surely the answer to your question is addressed directly in the article by Pravit.The journalist quoted, Wassana Nanuam, is incidentally an expert on army politics and her sources are first class.

However if one operates on the level that the army is doing a good job in the flooding crisis and we can therefore forget all the troubling issues associated with the military's past and present political ambitions, so be it.

What does a few tanks in the capital have to do with them helping people in the floods?

Even "a highly placed military source" giving Yingluck an "F" is someone saying (of the record) that she has stuffed up.

I am not suggesting that the army are not involved in politics, or that some people think that they should kick Yingluck out, but linking their efforts in the floods to "No Hope for Democracy" is pretty cheap.

Hopefully Pravit's next article will be "No Hope for Democracy If Backing for Corrupt Former Leaders Continues".

How true, instead of writing about political ambtions of the Army, why not do some real investigative journalism and expose the corrupt politicians. Strengthen the civilian administrations and you diminish the strength of the army in politics.

[Macmundi]

The army is just the horse. It should be under the control of the government. The only power they should have over the government is defending the throne. Citizens elect the government they trust to manage their tax, and how much of these tax should be allocated to the army.

[travelmann]

Thailand likes having a " Big Father Figure" its what theyve been taught its what they accept, look around you its everywhere. let them have it they know no different/better in most cases

Edited November 16, 2011 by travelmann

[noitom]

Thailand = military kleptocracy

here's a good one for Thailand : Ineptocracy = a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers

Thanks for your comments.Europe and the U.S is doing a lot better of course.I read everyday how they handle there problems.....brilliant not????

One characteristics of farangs who get caught up in the Thai "mystique" is to constantly compare any negative observations or constructive criticism to other countries and rationalize the Thai thing by doing that. The Thais do it all the time. It sort of doesn't make sense to compare. The Europeans did away with feudal systems and pervasive class stratification a long time ago and the Americans never really had it, and got into a civil war to eliminate something that was close to it. The Americans have managed with the same constitution for 225 years and most of the world would be speaking Japanese or German if the US military didn't do their thing. Sure, both the Europeans and the Americans need to ferret out cronyism and insider, good old boy opportunity, same as the Japanese and Chinese..et al. By why would you compare others to Thailand? And the Brazilians need to stop unleashing the military on the poor under the guise of drugs instead of the real reason which is to clean up before the world cup. Every place has a story. This is a forum to lay out the Thai story, not to excuse it away by rationalizing what Europe and the US do or don't do. It just doesn't make sense coming from someone who should know something more about the reality and history of Thailand. You're sort of living in the problem instead of living in the solution.

[sparebox2]

Thailand likes having a " Big Father Figure" its what theyve been taught its what they accept, look around you its everywhere. let them have it they know no different/better in most cases

Your post is a little risky.

[emilyb]

The weird part of this article is how the author talks about how the Army like it's just recently an autonomous institution and how the author talks about it as if it's the only one. That's how developing countries work and part of what makes, and what keeps them firmly in the developing column; total lack of respect for the rule of law that and subordination of institutions of government to individual whim makes it impossible to develop strong institutions that can cohesively outlast or overpower individuals. The RTP are also an autonomously governed entity to a large degree and various ministries are as well. Those with guns tend to be the most threatening, but they're not the only problem. Even certain localities are (Phuket comes to mind, but so does Samui - I'm sure there are others). It's a chicken/egg thing anyway. If the Thais elected the reincarnated spirit of every great democratic reformer in history tomorrow, the Army would fight tooth and nail to maintain its autonomy because, as has been said, it's the second biggest business in the country. It's not like any Army has this many generals for any good reason. Look how long it took Turkey to finally stand down from constant military interventions in democratic rule - finally happened officially, probably, this year (and not everyone there is happy about it!).

Edited November 16, 2011 by emilyb

[gregb]

The weird part of this article is how the author talks about how the Army like it's just recently an autonomous institution and how the author talks about it as if it's the only one. That's how developing countries work and part of what makes, and what keeps them firmly in the developing column; total lack of respect for the rule of law that and subordination of institutions of government to individual whim makes it impossible to develop strong institutions that can cohesively outlast or overpower individuals. The RTP are also an autonomously governed entity to a large degree and various ministries are as well. Those with guns tend to be the most threatening, but they're not the only problem. Even certain localities are (Phuket comes to mind, but so does Samui - I'm sure there are others). It's a chicken/egg thing anyway. If the Thais elected the reincarnated spirit of every great democratic reformer in history tomorrow, the Army would fight tooth and nail to maintain its autonomy because, as has been said, it's the second biggest business in the country. Look how long it took Turkey to finally stand down from constant military interventions in democratic rule - finally happened officially, probably, this year (and not everyone there is happy about it!).

The army will only stand down when everyone wants it to. Right now, the army is one of the institutions people look at to protect them from the tyranny of the government and police. Democratic reformers, if they truly wanted to change anything, would need to start by establishing rule of law and making it work for everyone. That would require people like Thaksin serve multi year prison terms for their crimes. Only then would people have another channel to turn to when they are abused.

Nobody in Thailand really wants democracy. I hope it is abandoned as an experiment.

[GarryP]

What disaster was brought to Thailand by the coup?

Please explain!

Yes I support what the PAD does, fighting for democracy and against corruption. What is wrong with that?

If it is true that PAD was fighting for democracy, I agree nothing but good arose from the coup.

Oooh! Semantics don't you just love 'em!

[prefabs]

The army is just the horse. It should be under the control of the government. The only power they should have over the government is defending the throne. Citizens elect the government they trust to manage their tax, and how much of these tax should be allocated to the army.

Who says this would be good in Thailand? The cabinet showed yesterday what they are prepared to do over Thaksin, imagine giving them Army power to do with as they chose. I get the feeling that those at the top are being held in check because they know what the Army is capable of doing to them. Let's not forget that Chalerm, Jatuporn etc. went AWOL during the floods, but the Army won over the populace with their conduct.. Yes, we can say it is their jobs.

But what jobs were Chalerm and Jatuporn doing at the same time. Where was the leadership? What help were they to Ms Yingluck? What help were they to Thailand?

No doubt that now things are easing off a bit, they will emerge from their foxholes and start their normal critiscm of all who do not agree with them

[hellodolly]

The army have got out there and done their job helping people. They've barely said a word about anything.

How is that "reinforcing the view that they are a state within a state" or "establishing a firm role in politics"?

I'm sure you (Pravit) would have preferred they stayed in their barracks just so you could write an article complaining about how they don't want to help the people.

Surely the answer to your question is addressed directly in the article by Pravit.The journalist quoted, Wassana Nanuam, is incidentally an expert on army politics and her sources are first class.

However if one operates on the level that the army is doing a good job in the flooding crisis and we can therefore forget all the troubling issues associated with the military's past and present political ambitions, so be it.

What does a few tanks in the capital have to do with them helping people in the floods?

Even "a highly placed military source" giving Yingluck an "F" is someone saying (of the record) that she has stuffed up.

I am not suggesting that the army are not involved in politics, or that some people think that they should kick Yingluck out, but linking their efforts in the floods to "No Hope for Democracy" is pretty cheap.

Hopefully Pravit's next article will be "No Hope for Democracy If Backing for Corrupt Former Leaders Continues".

I would go farther and say No Hope For Democracy if the people continue to think it is vote for who ever pays the most.

Until the people realize that Democracy is for the good of all the people they will continue to follow those who would use them for their own ends.

[jimbeam1]

Given that this story ran in conjunction with the announcement of amnesty for the criminal fugitive, it is no doubt a coordinated propaganda effort by Robert Amsterdam, and it should simply be ignored.

The Thai government today sealed the fate of the country. There will be civil war. Even should the red insurgents manage to win a battle or two, this problem will not go away. Thaksin and his dynasty will be brought down.

Thais clearly are not ready for democracy if they think Thaksin is the way to get it. Long live the military, who for all their problems, are the only reliable rulers in this country. There will be war one way or the other. Better it be the military in control than the terrorists.

Well said.

jb1

[jimbeam1]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

Very true but do you know any? I don't.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill was a moron. Give me a king any day over democracy. Sometimes kings are good and sometimes they are bad, but democracies always fall to the lowest common denominator of the population. Monarchies at least have a chance at being fair and just over the long term.

Now I think you have lost the plot. Off with his head.

jb1

[jimbeam1]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

Hear, hear.

Too many people have bought into the American propaganda machine that democracy is the only form of government people should hope for. What good is democracy if it is corrupt to the core? What good is democracy if the people being elected, and those doing the voting are too stupid to know how to achieve success?

What Thailand needs more than 'democracy at all costs' is a government that is capable of stopping corruption and not giving in to calls from the mob to bring financial ruin upon the country. Maybe the military can do that, maybe they can't. Certainly they too are corrupt, but if they are less corrupt than the government at any time, they owe Thailand a coup.

Yes and how do dictators usually finish up?

jb1

[soylentgreen]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

Or, a malevolent TROLL?

[DocN]

I am always bewildered by people who want to explain to me, that the Army just selflessly steps up and gets rid of "the evil" and saves Thailand's democracy.

Really, guys?

The Army as some kind of very well equipped "Robin Hood and his merry men"?

There is a general somewhere, who sits back and relaxes, but when democracy is threatened, he calls to arms, mounts his white stallion and leads his fearless men to battle?

No hidden agenda?

Not even any hidden power (before you take this of: I am not talking about the ones we can not mention!), who says "General...don't you think, it might be time...?"

All for the good of democracy and the Thai people?

Really?

Just asking....

[h90]

I am always bewildered by people who want to explain to me, that the Army just selflessly steps up and gets rid of "the evil" and saves Thailand's democracy.

Really, guys?

The Army as some kind of very well equipped "Robin Hood and his merry men"?

There is a general somewhere, who sits back and relaxes, but when democracy is threatened, he calls to arms, mounts his white stallion and leads his fearless men to battle?

No hidden agenda?

Not even any hidden power (before you take this of: I am not talking about the ones we can not mention!), who says "General...don't you think, it might be time...?"

All for the good of democracy and the Thai people?

Really?

Just asking....

At the last time it was like that and they gave the democracy back at the earliest possible time.

Actually they gave it back to early.....it is like a half cured cancer, it came back more evil than before.

[hammered]

What has to be learnt in Thailand is that if a government performs badly it is up to the people to reject them even if it takes them reelection after reelection to do so. There are not short cuts that are not far more damaging. If a government continually hurt the people at some point the people will reject them. It may take a long time but when they have learnt they have that power of change too, in the future that rejection will become shorter.

[ratcatcher]

What has to be learnt in Thailand is that if a government performs badly it is up to the people to reject them even if it takes them reelection after reelection to do so. There are not short cuts that are not far more damaging. If a government continually hurt the people at some point the people will reject them. It may take a long time but when they have learnt they have that power of change too, in the future that rejection will become shorter.

I agree with you in theory, but experience has shown that if Thailand allows the so-called democratic system to carry on "business as usual", (Corruption being rampant), in a few years Thailand will be like Greece-----bankrupt and looking for a bailout.

[h90]

What has to be learnt in Thailand is that if a government performs badly it is up to the people to reject them even if it takes them reelection after reelection to do so. There are not short cuts that are not far more damaging. If a government continually hurt the people at some point the people will reject them. It may take a long time but when they have learnt they have that power of change too, in the future that rejection will become shorter.

But that only works if we have fair elections, every party can promote their ideas everywhere, the news and TV is independend, there is no fraud, no vote buying and the looser accepts the result.

All that is not the case in Thailand