Yingluck And Thaksin Plead Ignorance About Amnesty

[Wlaisuwan]

Wow quite a heated debate and I have to say a lot of assumption has been thrown around.

So as a Thai national who grew up and educated abroad I got a perspective of both ways. I'd start with first, lying is NOT part of accepted Thai culture. It doesn't exist in Thai culture any more than any other culture. The thing is Thai people are bad liars and get gets spotted easily spotted and the country is wreaked with corruption.

Two, Thai people aren't gullible. A lot less so than what certain political camps likes to believe.Yingluck's party won a clear majority and let's face it nobody would believe that she would distance herself from Taksin. In reality that's what the voter wanted because their alternative are the Democrats. This point divides into two sub points here.

First is that majority of the country are fed up with the Democrats. Strange questions kept coming up during their time in power too. From authorizing live ammo on protesters who said to harboured terrorist that shot out grenades in the middle of Bangkok and yet fail to catch the perpetrators of the grenades shooting, to mysterious disappearance of cooking oil from the general market. Democrats themselves have been pending court hearing for years for election campaign money embezzlement. Under current law if they are found guilty they would have to be disband and received at least four years political ban and yet the party hasn't been to court of their corruption charges either. This list could run on forever but the point is that Taksin's enemy are no saint themselves either.

Second is that the general Thai feeling is that politics in Thailand are dirty and entirely corrupt. Which is probably isn't far from the truth. So it comes down to that if they are going to cheat and steal what are they giving back in return. So of course the country then compare what has the Democrats achieved to what has Taksin and his camp achieved whiles robbing the country blind? Because as speculative evidence is concern they both did. The answer that most of Thai population obviously come to is that Taksin and friends gave back more than the Democrats. You can debate that but clearly that's what the voter feels.

Three, the news article and the pardon process itself... So let's start off by saying we haven't yet seen what the proposal is made up off it's still under-wrap and in process. It would be hard to say that the multi-colour and the yellow didn't jump the gun in actions seeing as the details hasn't been released.

Secondly the proposal to the King can be rejected by the King himself. The King isn't a rubber stamp so the fear of setting dangerous trend is not really valid. Many people have been pardon before and it hasn't escalate the crimes of that those that have been pardon. The whole illegal proposal point is also a meek one here. The King have on many occasions if not always rejects to support or sign anything that isn't within the constitution. The Democrats and Taksin's enemy should know this point very well. During the political unrest that saw Democrats came into power they sought a short cut by requesting the King named Democrats party as a ruling part. The ground for the King's refusal was that it as not in the constitution and legally, he could not and should not be able to name a party to power (The Democrats then went on to come in power by putting together a coalition government). So just one of the many proof that the King have always use his discretion, he didn't became loved by the people by being a proxy to anyone else. Closing this point is that royal pardon is entirely up to the King's discretion. A proposal means nothing if the King refuse, and the King have been known to reject proposal before regardless of hurt feelings.

Four , a last point I like to make on this is that went you get news from Thai source do be aware of thier traditional supporters. It's a good rule for Thai media is that never take any one source as representing the whole truth. Nearly all Thai media are military, government or otherwise controlled by tycoons with political agendas. None of them are ever wholly truthful.

after the flood of water comes the flood of heat. After the flood of heat comes the flood of anger.

Remember everyone, most wars started during an ElNino period.

Wlaisuwan, you're right with your statement. The only question is, how to get the masses to dive into more and various information sources?

Facebook won't do the trick, it's just a blinder to let the great manipulators do what they're doing. Playing games all night and day doesn't help either.

One of the biggest problems here is that people with higher education and understanding often wait for the opportunity and chances to become part of the big conspiracies and corruptions and will take the opportunity to be silenced with stashes of money. This is not only for Thailand, but a bit more present here than elsewhere. There're only a few who make a difference and one of them is Anand Panyarachun. Where is the younger generation?

No easy answer to that one friend. Problem is that information sources aren't the only gauge. The lack of them is also key to the truth. For example how the quiet news have been with mysterious cargo container full of bodies dumped into the sea. Even more hair raising would of been how one of the yellow shirt leader was attack in the middle of the day in a drive by shooting that nearly cost his life. Yet the yellow shirts didn't press the matter and the perpetrator was not found, even though the yellow shirts gone on and officially said they have a prime suspect. Lack of action and news is as much information to go one as news and action seen. When pieced together only conclusion is there are a lot of powerful players behind the scene and unspoken agreement within political arena.

As for younger generation of Thailand.... Sadly the media spin and control means they aren't any more informed than most and rely on gut feeling in the end. Surveys have shown most of Thai youth aren't interested in politics with nearly as many believing it's corrupt and not interested in youth. Which is probably true on both counts. So in the end only way to get out of the cycle is for people to read between the lines and never take the media and wholesomely true.

Civil war wise is silly and not constructive. First of all it can only come to that if both side are capable of war. Seeing as the army is quite solid and under control it's not likely it will fracture into any kind of equal forces. Secondly the opposition has to want it for it to happen. Given how big and volatile protests can get in Thailand if they had wanted a full scale violence it would of dwarf civil unrest in anywhere else in the world. No Thai citizen truly wants that. Even if it did happen new system would of come in the price of blood which would increase the hate-mongering and cause underground instability anyway. War and hate isn't the way to unite a country and people.

The details of this proposal is still patchy. If I hazard a guess I would say whatever happen I really doubt the current government would do such bold move to bring Taksin so early on in their term. I think at best they'd lay a possibility for Taksin at later date seeing as they still have plenty of time. Even with constitution amendment it's still up to The King's discretion and I would think that most people would see his majesty as outside and above political arena. So in the end whatever move made nothing will work unless his majesty agree. As I said his majesty have been known to reject proposal made to him on ethical and legal grounds. Nobody in Thailand will openly oppose his majesty, so whatever his majesty decide to do with the proposal everyone will have to accept his decision. In somewhat that is good because it'll force the political arena to accept it as well.

[Wlaisuwan]

Wow quite a heated debate and I have to say a lot of assumption has been thrown around.

So as a Thai national who grew up and educated abroad I got a perspective of both ways. I'd start with first, lying is NOT part of accepted Thai culture. It doesn't exist in Thai culture any more than any other culture. The thing is Thai people are bad liars and get gets spotted easily spotted and the country is wreaked with corruption.

Two, Thai people aren't gullible. A lot less so than what certain political camps likes to believe.Yingluck's party won a clear majority and let's face it nobody would believe that she would distance herself from Taksin. In reality that's what the voter wanted because their alternative are the Democrats. This point divides into two sub points here.

First is that majority of the country are fed up with the Democrats. Strange questions kept coming up during their time in power too. From authorizing live ammo on protesters who said to harboured terrorist that shot out grenades in the middle of Bangkok and yet fail to catch the perpetrators of the grenades shooting, to mysterious disappearance of cooking oil from the general market. Democrats themselves have been pending court hearing for years for election campaign money embezzlement. Under current law if they are found guilty they would have to be disband and received at least four years political ban and yet the party hasn't been to court of their corruption charges either. This list could run on forever but the point is that Taksin's enemy are no saint themselves either.

Second is that the general Thai feeling is that politics in Thailand are dirty and entirely corrupt. Which is probably isn't far from the truth. So it comes down to that if they are going to cheat and steal what are they giving back in return. So of course the country then compare what has the Democrats achieved to what has Taksin and his camp achieved whiles robbing the country blind? Because as speculative evidence is concern they both did. The answer that most of Thai population obviously come to is that Taksin and friends gave back more than the Democrats. You can debate that but clearly that's what the voter feels.

Three, the news article and the pardon process itself... So let's start off by saying we haven't yet seen what the proposal is made up off it's still under-wrap and in process. It would be hard to say that the multi-colour and the yellow didn't jump the gun in actions seeing as the details hasn't been released.

Secondly the proposal to the King can be rejected by the King himself. The King isn't a rubber stamp so the fear of setting dangerous trend is not really valid. Many people have been pardon before and it hasn't escalate the crimes of that those that have been pardon. The whole illegal proposal point is also a meek one here. The King have on many occasions if not always rejects to support or sign anything that isn't within the constitution. The Democrats and Taksin's enemy should know this point very well. During the political unrest that saw Democrats came into power they sought a short cut by requesting the King named Democrats party as a ruling part. The ground for the King's refusal was that it as not in the constitution and legally, he could not and should not be able to name a party to power (The Democrats then went on to come in power by putting together a coalition government). So just one of the many proof that the King have always use his discretion, he didn't became loved by the people by being a proxy to anyone else. Closing this point is that royal pardon is entirely up to the King's discretion. A proposal means nothing if the King refuse, and the King have been known to reject proposal before regardless of hurt feelings.

Four , a last point I like to make on this is that went you get news from Thai source do be aware of thier traditional supporters. It's a good rule for Thai media is that never take any one source as representing the whole truth. Nearly all Thai media are military, government or otherwise controlled by tycoons with political agendas. None of them are ever wholly truthful.

You know, if you say lying is not accepted and then you argue that people that voted for PTP voted knowing that their aim was to get Thaksin back then you are saying that lying is accepted, because Yingluck and the others have said over and over that its not about Thaksin, they are not going to work for the benefit of one man, etc, etc. So, they lie and people not only accept it but they vote for them.

Also, Red Shirts that carried grenade attacks have been arrested, so there goes another non-fact on your post.

Sorry for double posts, missed this one and I want to seem rude and ignore comment directed at me.

First to that, I said lying is not accepted in the culture. If you like to dispute that then try constantly lying to Thai people and see how many Thai friends you will have. Secondly I also said people believe. Therefore it has nothing to do with what PTP and Yingluck actual intent only the perception of their intend. Voters perception and hopes do not equal to the truth or actual intent of PTP.

Secondly grenade shooting arrest as far information goes the evidence were flimsy at best and still pending court hearing / contest. Since we're down this path we may as well ask where these weapons came from. Seeing as the red shirts themselves seized weapons left behind by the army. The whole handling of the protest was marred by questions so are it's handling. Lets point out some more then, 1) arrest warrents for civil disorder and terrorism; The main case was the burning of shopping mall, yet not CCTV recording was released.

2) Mysterious snipping categorised as self defence; I'm reasonably sure the Japanese journalist from reutors didn't try to attack the army with his microphone.

3) Which led to the mysterious snipping of renegade general mid media conference. I'm sure the red shirt didn't snipped one of their own.

4) Journalist was not allow to witness the military dispersal of the protest.

Now I will admit I may have been outdated on some issue but can anyone really say putting these together it doesn't add up to on odd picture and if it does shouldn't we be wary of the cover up? I don't want to seem like evading your point and if you prove that my statements are wrong I will accept them. I'm not stubbornly arguing I only want the truth. However even if some of my points are outdated it does not invalidate my other point and general picture I am painting which is Taskin's enemy are no better than he is. I think you'll have a lot of work if you try to push that Taksin enemies are better than he his. Still I'd listen to any points you'd make, if I am wrong then I'd know better, if not then maybe we'll see eye to eye.

[Arkady]

"'It's at the full discretion of His Majesty,'" he told Reuters on Wednesday in Dubai in reference to the pardon issue.

As usual Thaksin is being disingenuous in making this comment to international media, since he knows full well that HMK has always approved the government's pardon recommendations (according to The Nation) which makes it in practice at the discretion of the government or prime minister.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Arkady

[Jingthing]

"'It's at the full discretion of His Majesty,'" he told Reuters on Wednesday in Dubai in reference to the pardon issue.

As usual Thaksin is being disingenuous in making this comment to international media, since he knows full well that HMK has always approved the government's pardon recommendations (according to The Nation) which makes it in practice at the discretion of the government or prime minister.

Yes, Korn mentioned this. He said in the past such pardon documents coming from the Thai government have been RUBBER STAMPED ... every time.

[TAWP]

Question Mr. tlansford. If the government's draft decree includes a pardon for Thaksin do you support it?

Where's geriatrickid?

In bed with Tliansford - figuratively speaking, of course.

Getting hammered..... figuratively speaking, of course.

With a J-boy... figuratively speaking, of course.

[AleG]

Sorry for double posts, missed this one and I want to seem rude and ignore comment directed at me.

First to that, I said lying is not accepted in the culture. If you like to dispute that then try constantly lying to Thai people and see how many Thai friends you will have. Secondly I also said people believe. Therefore it has nothing to do with what PTP and Yingluck actual intent only the perception of their intend. Voters perception and hopes do not equal to the truth or actual intent of PTP.

Secondly grenade shooting arrest as far information goes the evidence were flimsy at best and still pending court hearing / contest. Since we're down this path we may as well ask where these weapons came from. Seeing as the red shirts themselves seized weapons left behind by the army. The whole handling of the protest was marred by questions so are it's handling. Lets point out some more then, 1) arrest warrents for civil disorder and terrorism; The main case was the burning of shopping mall, yet not CCTV recording was released.

2) Mysterious snipping categorised as self defence; I'm reasonably sure the Japanese journalist from reutors didn't try to attack the army with his microphone.

3) Which led to the mysterious snipping of renegade general mid media conference. I'm sure the red shirt didn't snipped one of their own.

4) Journalist was not allow to witness the military dispersal of the protest.

Now I will admit I may have been outdated on some issue but can anyone really say putting these together it doesn't add up to on odd picture and if it does shouldn't we be wary of the cover up? I don't want to seem like evading your point and if you prove that my statements are wrong I will accept them. I'm not stubbornly arguing I only want the truth. However even if some of my points are outdated it does not invalidate my other point and general picture I am painting which is Taskin's enemy are no better than he is. I think you'll have a lot of work if you try to push that Taksin enemies are better than he his. Still I'd listen to any points you'd make, if I am wrong then I'd know better, if not then maybe we'll see eye to eye.

Thaksin constantly lies to the Thai people and he still has many "friends".

"It was a honest mistake!" Over the assets concealment case, yeah, right.

When he called snap elections in 2006, didn't he said that he would resign as PM if he got less votes as the first time he was elected?, well, he didn't and he didn't.

"I quit politics!"

"I quit as Prime Minister!", in front of the King no less, and then sneaks in again.

"I will be with you (Red Shirts) when the bullets start flying!" He wasn't, was he?

"Thailand is now a drugs free country!"

Should I go on?

As for the other points, I see you are in conspiracy mode and I'm not going to get into debunking that.

[TAWP]

"'It's at the full discretion of His Majesty,'" he told Reuters on Wednesday in Dubai in reference to the pardon issue.

As usual Thaksin is being disingenuous in making this comment to international media, since he knows full well that HMK has always approved the government's pardon recommendations (according to The Nation) which makes it in practice at the discretion of the government or prime minister.

Yes, Korn mentioned this. He said in the past such pardon documents coming from the Thai government have been RUBBER STAMPED ... every time.

And what that forces is a politicization is the nations highest institution. Either forcing someone to supposedly go in clinch with a group that has many armed followers and seemingly is ready for a revolution (as called for by Thaksin) or to have the papers be rubbed-stamped and then claim that Thaksin has been cleared by even the highest institution - therefor being able to do a huge spin internationally.

[hyperdimension]

It's quite worrying if it is simply a blanket rubber stamping of a list of 26K names. Why should all those criminals go free so easily?

[Jingthing]

"'It's at the full discretion of His Majesty,'" he told Reuters on Wednesday in Dubai in reference to the pardon issue.

As usual Thaksin is being disingenuous in making this comment to international media, since he knows full well that HMK has always approved the government's pardon recommendations (according to The Nation) which makes it in practice at the discretion of the government or prime minister.

Yes, Korn mentioned this. He said in the past such pardon documents coming from the Thai government have been RUBBER STAMPED ... every time.

And what that forces is a politicization is the nations highest institution. Either forcing someone to supposedly go in clinch with a group that has many armed followers and seemingly is ready for a revolution (as called for by Thaksin) or to have the papers be rubbed-stamped and then claim that Thaksin has been cleared by even the highest institution - therefor being able to do a huge spin internationally.

Exactly. Thaksin is playing hard ball in a very rude way. As many feel, he appears to not care about deeply damaging his nation.

[Jingthing]

It's quite worrying if it is simply a blanket rubber stamping of a list of 26K names. Why should all those criminals go free so easily?

That isn't really the issue. Such pardons are routine here and show a wonderful spirit of compassion. The issue is one thing -- THAKSIN.

[davehowden]

Is this gormless looking bunch the Thai Cabinet ?

[bigbamboo]

I agree 100 per cent with Thaksin and his sister Yingluck here. They are ignorant.

[lannarebirth]

Wow quite a heated debate and I have to say a lot of assumption has been thrown around.

So as a Thai national who grew up and educated abroad I got a perspective of both ways. I'd start with first, lying is NOT part of accepted Thai culture. It doesn't exist in Thai culture any more than any other culture. The thing is Thai people are bad liars and get gets spotted easily spotted and the country is wreaked with corruption.

Two, Thai people aren't gullible. A lot less so than what certain political camps likes to believe.Yingluck's party won a clear majority and let's face it nobody would believe that she would distance herself from Taksin. In reality that's what the voter wanted because their alternative are the Democrats. This point divides into two sub points here.

First is that majority of the country are fed up with the Democrats. Strange questions kept coming up during their time in power too. From authorizing live ammo on protesters who said to harboured terrorist that shot out grenades in the middle of Bangkok and yet fail to catch the perpetrators of the grenades shooting, to mysterious disappearance of cooking oil from the general market. Democrats themselves have been pending court hearing for years for election campaign money embezzlement. Under current law if they are found guilty they would have to be disband and received at least four years political ban and yet the party hasn't been to court of their corruption charges either. This list could run on forever but the point is that Taksin's enemy are no saint themselves either.

Second is that the general Thai feeling is that politics in Thailand are dirty and entirely corrupt. Which is probably isn't far from the truth. So it comes down to that if they are going to cheat and steal what are they giving back in return. So of course the country then compare what has the Democrats achieved to what has Taksin and his camp achieved whiles robbing the country blind? Because as speculative evidence is concern they both did. The answer that most of Thai population obviously come to is that Taksin and friends gave back more than the Democrats. You can debate that but clearly that's what the voter feels.

Three, the news article and the pardon process itself... So let's start off by saying we haven't yet seen what the proposal is made up off it's still under-wrap and in process. It would be hard to say that the multi-colour and the yellow didn't jump the gun in actions seeing as the details hasn't been released.

Secondly the proposal to the King can be rejected by the King himself. The King isn't a rubber stamp so the fear of setting dangerous trend is not really valid. Many people have been pardon before and it hasn't escalate the crimes of that those that have been pardon. The whole illegal proposal point is also a meek one here. The King have on many occasions if not always rejects to support or sign anything that isn't within the constitution. The Democrats and Taksin's enemy should know this point very well. During the political unrest that saw Democrats came into power they sought a short cut by requesting the King named Democrats party as a ruling part. The ground for the King's refusal was that it as not in the constitution and legally, he could not and should not be able to name a party to power (The Democrats then went on to come in power by putting together a coalition government). So just one of the many proof that the King have always use his discretion, he didn't became loved by the people by being a proxy to anyone else. Closing this point is that royal pardon is entirely up to the King's discretion. A proposal means nothing if the King refuse, and the King have been known to reject proposal before regardless of hurt feelings.

Four , a last point I like to make on this is that went you get news from Thai source do be aware of thier traditional supporters. It's a good rule for Thai media is that never take any one source as representing the whole truth. Nearly all Thai media are military, government or otherwise controlled by tycoons with political agendas. None of them are ever wholly truthful.

You know, if you say lying is not accepted and then you argue that people that voted for PTP voted knowing that their aim was to get Thaksin back then you are saying that lying is accepted, because Yingluck and the others have said over and over that its not about Thaksin, they are not going to work for the benefit of one man, etc, etc. So, they lie and people not only accept it but they vote for them.

Also, Red Shirts that carried grenade attacks have been arrested, so there goes another non-fact on your post.

Sorry for double posts, missed this one and I want to seem rude and ignore comment directed at me.

First to that, I said lying is not accepted in the culture. If you like to dispute that then try constantly lying to Thai people and see how many Thai friends you will have. Secondly I also said people believe. Therefore it has nothing to do with what PTP and Yingluck actual intent only the perception of their intend. Voters perception and hopes do not equal to the truth or actual intent of PTP.

Secondly grenade shooting arrest as far information goes the evidence were flimsy at best and still pending court hearing / contest. Since we're down this path we may as well ask where these weapons came from. Seeing as the red shirts themselves seized weapons left behind by the army. The whole handling of the protest was marred by questions so are it's handling. Lets point out some more then, 1) arrest warrents for civil disorder and terrorism; The main case was the burning of shopping mall, yet not CCTV recording was released.

2) Mysterious snipping categorised as self defence; I'm reasonably sure the Japanese journalist from reutors didn't try to attack the army with his microphone.

3) Which led to the mysterious snipping of renegade general mid media conference. I'm sure the red shirt didn't snipped one of their own.

4) Journalist was not allow to witness the military dispersal of the protest.

Now I will admit I may have been outdated on some issue but can anyone really say putting these together it doesn't add up to on odd picture and if it does shouldn't we be wary of the cover up? I don't want to seem like evading your point and if you prove that my statements are wrong I will accept them. I'm not stubbornly arguing I only want the truth. However even if some of my points are outdated it does not invalidate my other point and general picture I am painting which is Taskin's enemy are no better than he is. I think you'll have a lot of work if you try to push that Taksin enemies are better than he his. Still I'd listen to any points you'd make, if I am wrong then I'd know better, if not then maybe we'll see eye to eye.

I'll take your word for it that Thaksin's enemies ar no better than he is, but would you say the policies of the opposition party are also no better than PTP's?

[hyperdimension]

It's quite worrying if it is simply a blanket rubber stamping of a list of 26K names. Why should all those criminals go free so easily?

That isn't really the issue. Such pardons are routine here and show a wonderful spirit of compassion. The issue is one thing -- THAKSIN.

It is an issue because if Thaksin's name is added to the list then it may get automatically rubber-stamped, even though Thaksin and possibly many others may not actually deserve a pardon. That's why I have said before that pardon requests should be processed on a case-by-case basis with criteria that need to be passed, such as interviews and psychiatric examination and analysis of behavior since conviction, before being granted.

Edited November 20, 2011 by hyperdimension

[KKK]

Personally I hope that Thaksin does not come back. This country needs some GOOD news for a change.

[Ricardo]

I wonder what other Cabinet-decisions there might be, which PM-Yingluck is similarly totally-ignorant about, potentially very-worrying precedent that.

Shouldn't Deputy-PM Chalerm be briefing her, on decisions taken, in her absence ?

Edited November 21, 2011 by Ricardo

[hyperdimension]

I wonder what other Cabinet-decisions there might be, which PM-Yingluck is similarly totally-ignorant about, potentially very-worrying precedent that.

Shouldn't Deputy-PM Chalerm be briefing her, on decisions taken, in her absence ?

Yes, her lack of knowledge of cabinet decisions comes across as dereliction of duty.

It has already been a few days since that meeting so she must have full knowledge of everything by now, but she has not expressed anything specific to it, probably because she doesn't know what to say (other than the key phrases that she had memorized since before the election - "everything must be done by rule of law", et cetera).

Edited November 21, 2011 by hyperdimension

[pastitche]

It's quite worrying if it is simply a blanket rubber stamping of a list of 26K names. Why should all those criminals go free so easily?

That isn't really the issue. Such pardons are routine here and show a wonderful spirit of compassion. The issue is one thing -- THAKSIN.

It is an issue because if Thaksin's name is added to the list then it may get automatically rubber-stamped, even though Thaksin and possibly many others may not actually deserve a pardon. That's why I have said before that pardon requests should be processed on a case-by-case basis with criteria that need to be passed, such as interviews and psychiatric examination and analysis of behavior since conviction, before being granted.

What you are advocating is what I understand is called parole in the USA and release under licence in the UK - both the result of committee decisions. Pardon/amnesty in Thailand is a royal prerogative.

[Colin Yai]

I wonder what other Cabinet-decisions there might be, which PM-Yingluck is similarly totally-ignorant about, potentially very-worrying precedent that.

Shouldn't Deputy-PM Chalerm be briefing her, on decisions taken, in her absence ?

Yes, her lack of knowledge of cabinet decisions comes across as dereliction of duty.

It has already been a few days since that meeting so she must have full knowledge of everything by now, but she has not expressed anything specific to it, probably because she doesn't know what to say (other than the key phrases that she had memorized since before the election - "everything must be done by rule of law", et cetera).

Come come do you REALLY believe its lack of knowledge on Yinglucks behalf on EXACTINGLY what was going to take place in her"planned" absence? ,IMHO this was planned well in advance between her and Chalerm so she could claim lack of responsibility and knowledge of, as to what had taken place behind "closed doors" nice try Yingluck but sorry "no cigar", not with this kid anyway! :lol: Edited November 21, 2011 by Colin Yai

[cdnski12]

.

So then, none of the Shinawatras' know anything about Shinawatra's government request for a Shinawatra pardon?

hmmmm... ok.

.

[cdnski12]

AWW ... SSHH ... UUCCCKKSS. THIS STORY SUCKS!!