Chalerm To Spearhead Amnesty Bill For Thaksin

[weka]

Chalerm vows to bring ex-PM Thaksin home

BANGKOK, Nov 24 - Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung on Thursday said he will continue to push for an amnesty law which will pave the way for ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra to return home.

The move however would kickstart only after the government's campaign against drugs and the cases of 91 Red Shirt protest-related deaths have concluded with those held accountable for the deaths being brought to justice, he said.

Mr Chalerm stated that he had to honour his campaign pledge in the lead up to the July 3 election.

"I had made it clear since 2009 that those who agree with my idea (to return Mr Thaksin to Thailand) should vote for the Pheu Thai Party. Then the result of July 3, 2011 election was in itself a referendum," he said.

The deputy prime minister commented following an uproar from the opposition Democrat Party and anti-Thaksin movements which slammed the government's attempt to seek royal pardon for Mr Thaksin, an elder brother of Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra.

Mr Chalerm shrugged off the reaction from the opponents of the draft royal pardon decree.

"I have no problem with those who opposed the move but I insist that the decree is not meant for any particular person but for the sake of national reconciliation and that will benefit us all," he said.

The deputy prime minister said he would push the amnesty draft through parliament.

Mounting criticism and a public outcry have forced the government to back down on the amnesty move.

Mr Thaksin was ousted in the 2006 coup and was sentenced in absentia in 2008 to two years imprisonment for abuse of power for helping his then wife acquire a parcel of prime Bangkok commercial land at a price far below its market value.

Prime Minister Yingluck recently said that her brother's name was not on the list of the convicts applying for the proposed royal pardon as part of celebrations to mark His Majesty King Bhumibol's birthday on Dec 5. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 2011-11-24

Was this what you meant by "inspirational" election victory Mr Obama?

You congratulated this??!!

really???

[Sparkles]

Countless surveys have shown that Thai's don't see corruption as part of the many problems this country experiences. Its so endemic in Thai society that its become acceptable. A good Thai friend of mine once said to me that to be successful in politics in Thailand you first need to have a criminal mind,then you need to amass a load of ill gotten money,money brings power and you are on your way. Can't argue with that .

[slapout]

Al Capone and like minded people operated the same way, but then enforcement of the laws and prosecution of those breaking said laws was handed over to non corruptible groups and many problems were eliminated.If as polls indicate, the majority of Thai's accept theft/dishonesty, the various agencies trying to woe back tourism, they may be pissing against the wind.

This observation is based solely on my interaction, social/business, with various nationalities of business/middle class people who would rather not associate with thieves, thugs, etc.

[smedly]

the election policies to win votes (minimum wage etc) will ruin Thailand if it goes through, yhere is no infrastructure here to support such a move, expect it to become very very expensive to live here if any of this goes through, Inflation will go through the roof and we will have poor getting poorer, again Thaksin doing whatever to make sure of his one priority - wining the election at any cost, unfortunately the poor people that voted for him didn't realise that in the long run it would be at their expense - it really is a very very sad state of affairs, I don't often post about political matters here but this is so bad it just maddens me to watch it unfold, Ireally hope the military step in before this gets any worse, seems obvious to me that the Thai people are not ready for Democracy because they don't understand that they are being dupped and lied too

[KKvampire]

"Thai people are not ready for Democracy because they don't understand that they are being dupped and lied too "

They don't understand that unless they change the country by electing politicians who are not criminals and gangsters then Military coups will and SHOULD continue, and as I have said many times before on TV This country will be a South East Asia failed basket case

[scorecard]

The general election outcome reflected the voice of the people on the amnesty issue, he said, ruling out a referendum.

Not gonna try a referendum because they know if it came to getting a majority of the vote to pardon Thaksin they couldn't do it

There's also the high possibility that they would buy whatever votes are needed to win the referendum, and IMHO this (given the t factor involved)could well by the straw that invokes a coup before the referendum takes place. And I'm sure chalerm is well aware of this.

Edited November 24, 2011 by scorecard

[scorecard]

"Thai people are not ready for Democracy because they don't understand that they are being dupped and lied too "

They don't understand that unless they change the country by electing politicians who are not criminals and gangsters then Military coups will and SHOULD continue, and as I have said many times before on TV This country will be a South East Asia failed basket case

Sure the concept and the mechanisms of democracy are not well understood, but like all countries it takes time.

IMHO you are certainly correct in saying: "........unless they change the country by electing politicians who are not criminals and gangsters then Military coups will and SHOULD continue...."

[janverbeem]

"Thai people are not ready for Democracy because they don't understand that they are being dupped and lied too "

They don't understand that unless they change the country by electing politicians who are not criminals and gangsters then Military coups will and SHOULD continue, and as I have said many times before on TV This country will be a South East Asia failed basket case

100% agree,this country isn't ready for democracy since the majority doesn't have a clue what is going on.

[nong38]

Look the mans down on his luck, he has to live in Dubai and travel the world and no one loves him out there, give him a break wont you!! I owe him one Leg or arm its up to you

[siampolee]

61-year-old grandfather of 5, Ampon Tangnoppakul, has been sentenced to 20 years for sending 4 SMS messages that defamed the monarchy to a member of Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva's personal team.

Amphon, also known as Ar Kong, has always maintained his innocence and claimed that he didn't own the SIM card used to send the messages.

I hope that the present Pheu Thai government also understand the terrible human cost of sentencing people to horrific prison terms for such acts and work hard to reform lese majeste. They should be continually reminded that such harsh sentencing undermines Thailand's standing as a responsible member of the international community, painting it as little more than a North Korea with spas and temple

All the way for the corrupt double dealing criminal bail jumping egotist Thaksin . All the big boys in there shouting for an amnesty along with redrafting the legal process too.

Any chance of a burst of outraged indignation and the pursuit of an amnesty for Ampon Tangnoppakul ?

No money no influence no powerful connection just an ordinary little person No chance of help at all from the supporters of Red Democracy

Edited November 24, 2011 by siampolee

[scorecard]

A lot of people voted for Pheua Thai because of its policies, nothing to do with Thaksin's return.

Yup. And a lot people just voted for the same local political elite that have ruled their area for decades. They didn't elect fresh new leaders in most districts, just the same old corrupt elite that has been impoverishing them for personal gain for decades.

A very good point, at the last election there were many candidates who stood advocating the country break away from, the "Mafia and corrupt method" of running affairs and the Thai people voted for the same old people with their same ways, Its a sad indictment on the voters and the country and doesnt give it much hope for a future of uncorrupted government at all levels.

Couldn't agree more, plus:

- Thaksin and his scaly leeches will of course say the poor and poor because of the Bkk elites and amart.

- Wonder what jatoporn's reaction would be to "...... And a lot people just voted for the same local political elite that have ruled their area for decades. They didn't elect fresh new leaders in most districts, just the same old corrupt elite that has been impoverishing them for personal gain for decades.and the Thai people voted for the same old people with their same ways, Its a sad indictment on the voters and the country and doesnt give it much hope for a future of uncorrupted government at all levels."

[pastitche]

If the election was a referendum on bringing Thaksin back and annul his sentence (and I presume toss aside all the other charges pending) then they lost 48% to 52%.

Whilst I can understand your argument, it has basic flaws. Thailand votes for constituency MPs and each constituency returns the winner of that election. The "list vote" is an attempt to involve an element of proportional representation. On that basis, Pheau Thai had a majority of seats in parliament and therefore was entitled to be the government. Have a think about the Thatcher and Blair governments in the UK and the parliamentary majorities that sustained them (Thatcher/Major had virtually no support in Wales or Scotland) and consider whether the problem is the voting system - you can't glibly assume that in a race with more than two runners, gaining 48% means you lose. If it were true that all who did not vote PT wanted a different government, why is a Democrat-led coalition not in power?

[pastitche]

A lot of people voted for Pheua Thai because of its policies, nothing to do with Thaksin's return.

Yup. And a lot people just voted for the same local political elite that have ruled their area for decades. They didn't elect fresh new leaders in most districts, just the same old corrupt elite that has been impoverishing them for personal gain for decades.

A very good point, at the last election there were many candidates who stood advocating the country break away from, the "Mafia and corrupt method" of running affairs and the Thai people voted for the same old people with their same ways, Its a sad indictment on the voters and the country and doesnt give it much hope for a future of uncorrupted government at all levels.

Couldn't agree more, plus:

- Thaksin and his scaly leeches will of course say the poor and poor because of the Bkk elites and amart.

- Wonder what jatoporn's reaction would be to "...... And a lot people just voted for the same local political elite that have ruled their area for decades. They didn't elect fresh new leaders in most districts, just the same old corrupt elite that has been impoverishing them for personal gain for decades.and the Thai people voted for the same old people with their same ways, Its a sad indictment on the voters and the country and doesnt give it much hope for a future of uncorrupted government at all levels."

Is there such a creature as a scaly leech? Seems unlikely

[animatic]

If you were Khun T would you come back? Sure a lot love him, it only takes one who really is pissed off to make it a short visit.

Worse still, 10 who are really determined.

I wouldn't come back if I were him,

even now he doesn't have enough money to be truly safe,

except in his own mind... and there lies the problem.

[muchogra]

"Thai people are not ready for Democracy because they don't understand that they are being dupped and lied too "

They don't understand that unless they change the country by electing politicians who are not criminals and gangsters then Military coups will and SHOULD continue, and as I have said many times before on TV This country will be a South East Asia failed basket case

I concur.

The subject of democracy in Thailand is a purely academic talk speaking from a high pedestal. Don't people realizes that a great number of the populace do not see corruption, lies, and deceits as wrong? What democracy means to them is having the right to break the laws and filing suits to get what they want. Where are the people who are supposed to enforce the laws? The first thing to do, even before talking about democracy, seems to me, is to get people to enforce the laws and hold them responsible when they don't. Tough luck with all the leaders!

[moe666]

You have to like this guy he just blows off the elected PM like she was a school girl.

[pastitche]

"Thai people are not ready for Democracy because they don't understand that they are being dupped and lied too "

They don't understand that unless they change the country by electing politicians who are not criminals and gangsters then Military coups will and SHOULD continue, and as I have said many times before on TV This country will be a South East Asia failed basket case

100% agree,this country isn't ready for democracy since the majority doesn't have a clue what is going on.

Does that mean that you do not belive in universal suffrage except where the electorate is politically aware? Politically awareness was a catchphrase for the Communist Party of Great Britain in their heyday, prior to WW11. I am sure that is not what you want.

Universal suffrage was resisted in most of the western democracies - the UK (Magna Carta 1215 is a joke, it did nothing for any except the barons) did not allow all women over 21 (thereby creating equality with men) to vote until 1928. In the 19th century, property was a qualification for men to vote so that ensured that the masses had no say.

It's a different world now; mass media is available to all and the simplest peasant in the remotest area of the Amazon knows more of world affairs than Europeans of 200 years ago.

That means that you may wish for a better set of voters but that is like wishing for ..... pick your own fantasy

[dru2]

I could not have put this better.

61-year-old grandfather of 5, Ampon Tangnoppakul, has been sentenced to 20 years for sending 4 SMS messages that defamed the monarchy to a member of Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva's personal team.

Amphon, also known as Ar Kong, has always maintained his innocence and claimed that he didn't own the SIM card used to send the messages.

I hope that the present Pheu Thai government also understand the terrible human cost of sentencing people to horrific prison terms for such acts and work hard to reform lese majeste. They should be continually reminded that such harsh sentencing undermines Thailand's standing as a responsible member of the international community, painting it as little more than a North Korea with spas and temple

All the way for the corrupt double dealing criminal bail jumping egotist Thaksin . All the big boys in there shouting for an amnesty along with redrafting the legal process too.

Any chance of a burst of outraged indignation and the pursuit of an amnesty for Ampon Tangnoppakul ?

No money no influence no powerful connection just an ordinary little person No chance of help at all from the supporters of Red Democracy

[OzMick]

Does that mean that you do not belive in universal suffrage except where the electorate is politically aware? Politically awareness was a catchphrase for the Communist Party of Great Britain in their heyday, prior to WW11. I am sure that is not what you want.

Universal suffrage was resisted in most of the western democracies - the UK (Magna Carta 1215 is a joke, it did nothing for any except the barons) did not allow all women over 21 (thereby creating equality with men) to vote until 1928. In the 19th century, property was a qualification for men to vote so that ensured that the masses had no say.

It's a different world now; mass media is available to all and the simplest peasant in the remotest area of the Amazon knows more of world affairs than Europeans of 200 years ago.

That means that you may wish for a better set of voters but that is like wishing for ..... pick your own fantasy

Should we avoid all concepts used as political slogans because we don't like the parties who used them? Political awareness is requirement of true democracy, as well as a free and critical press to present political information, and a population with the education needed to make logical choices.

Universal suffrage was resisted as it is a perceived and recognised weakness of democracy, though I am not offering alternatives. How do you argue that the village idiot should have the same voting rights as a professor of political science, or that the Thai education system couldn't be improved? I can and do wish for a better set of voters who are educated enough to read and understand a government critical newspaper article, who have enough calculating skill to work out that the politician offering bribes is most likely a thief, and would prefer to watch a current affairs program than a soap opera.

IMHO you over-estimate the effect of mass-media. I have bought maps of the world for Thai lady friends so that they could understand better the difference between Austria and Australia - they made great place-mats. I bought an inflatable globe for the younger children in my wife's family - the older children used it as a football. In both cases, the recipients needed help to recognise Thailand, and wanted to know what all the blue was. Concepts such as time zones and seasons were totally foreign.

[Ricardo]

You have to like this guy he just blows off the elected PM like she was a school girl.

I thought Chalerm was PM, I mean he runs Cabinet-meetings without Ms-Yingluck being there & doesn't have to brief her afterwards, he decides what policies he wants to follow, he's almost-invisible during the floods, surely he is PM ?

It looks like a duck, quacks etc.

[whybother]

If the election was a referendum on bringing Thaksin back and annul his sentence (and I presume toss aside all the other charges pending) then they lost 48% to 52%.

Whilst I can understand your argument, it has basic flaws. Thailand votes for constituency MPs and each constituency returns the winner of that election. The "list vote" is an attempt to involve an element of proportional representation. On that basis, Pheau Thai had a majority of seats in parliament and therefore was entitled to be the government. Have a think about the Thatcher and Blair governments in the UK and the parliamentary majorities that sustained them (Thatcher/Major had virtually no support in Wales or Scotland) and consider whether the problem is the voting system - you can't glibly assume that in a race with more than two runners, gaining 48% means you lose. If it were true that all who did not vote PT wanted a different government, why is a Democrat-led coalition not in power?

No one's talking about whether they should be in government or not.

Referendums are about a vote on a specific issue and for it to pass, a majority of voters must vote for it.

Besides the fact that the election wasn't a vote on the specific issue of giving Thaksin amnesty, last I checked 48% wasn't a majority.

[whybother]

He [Chalerm] added that the government would ensure that the people involved in corruption would face legal action.

[AleG]

If the election was a referendum on bringing Thaksin back and annul his sentence (and I presume toss aside all the other charges pending) then they lost 48% to 52%.

Whilst I can understand your argument, it has basic flaws. Thailand votes for constituency MPs and each constituency returns the winner of that election. The "list vote" is an attempt to involve an element of proportional representation. On that basis, Pheau Thai had a majority of seats in parliament and therefore was entitled to be the government. Have a think about the Thatcher and Blair governments in the UK and the parliamentary majorities that sustained them (Thatcher/Major had virtually no support in Wales or Scotland) and consider whether the problem is the voting system - you can't glibly assume that in a race with more than two runners, gaining 48% means you lose. If it were true that all who did not vote PT wanted a different government, why is a Democrat-led coalition not in power?

The voting for an election and a referendum are different, you are comparing apples to oranges. If this past election is to be taken as a vote in favour of Thaksin getting an amnesty (vote for PTP for Yes) or no amnesty (vote for someone else for NO) then it's crystal clear, 48% YES Vs. 52% NO.

Referendums just don't work like that, its just silly to try to adjust the rules to fit the outcome to the preferred result.

However you may want to find any example of a referendum run on anything but proportional voting anywhere in the World.

Of course in an actual reference for an amnesty for Thaksin he wouldn't get nowhere near 48% of the votes in his favour, since not everyone that voted for PTP would agree with the idea. That's why there won't be a referendum in the matter and instead PTP is going to try every spin, loophole and underhanded maneuver to fulfill its purpose.

[hyperdimension]

Mr Chalerm stated that he had to honour his campaign pledge in the lead up to the July 3 election.

Oh how honorable of him!

"I had made it clear since 2009 that those who agree with my idea (to return Mr Thaksin to Thailand) should vote for the Pheu Thai Party. Then the result of July 3, 2011 election was in itself a referendum," he said.

This is quite outrageous!

Prior to the Election, Chalerm did express that their main election campaign platform should only be about Thaksin (there was an interview published on the Bangkok Post web site). However nowhere in Pheu Thai's list of pledges did it include anything about Thaksin.

Now Chalerm is equating this election result as results of a referendum on whether Thaksin should return to Thailand as a free man. This is completely wrong in more than one way:

• Not all votes for Pheu Thai were for Thaksin because bringing back Thaksin as a free man was not Pheu Thai's one and only pledge. Pheu Thai offered a package of a variety of attractive pledges, including a nationwide minimum wage increase to 300 THB per day, a minimum wage of 15K THB per month for graduates, and tablet PCs for students.
• A majority of votes were not for Pheu Thai, so even if Pheu Thai's only pledge was to bring back Thaksin, then the majority said No. 48% of all valid votes were for Pheu Thai.

Yet Chalerm states that the election "was in itself a referendum"!

People need to be aware of this brazen deception, but I have a feeling that a lot of people, particularly Red Shirt and Thaksin supporters, are incapable of it.

Edited November 25, 2011 by hyperdimension

[bigbamboo]

If the election was a referendum on bringing Thaksin back and annul his sentence (and I presume toss aside all the other charges pending) then they lost 48% to 52%.

Whilst I can understand your argument, it has basic flaws. Thailand votes for constituency MPs and each constituency returns the winner of that election. The "list vote" is an attempt to involve an element of proportional representation. On that basis, Pheau Thai had a majority of seats in parliament and therefore was entitled to be the government. Have a think about the Thatcher and Blair governments in the UK and the parliamentary majorities that sustained them (Thatcher/Major had virtually no support in Wales or Scotland) and consider whether the problem is the voting system - you can't glibly assume that in a race with more than two runners, gaining 48% means you lose. If it were true that all who did not vote PT wanted a different government, why is a Democrat-led coalition not in power?

No one's talking about whether they should be in government or not.

Referendums are about a vote on a specific issue and for it to pass, a majority of voters must vote for it.

Besides the fact that the election wasn't a vote on the specific issue of giving Thaksin amnesty, last I checked 48% wasn't a majority.

It doesn't matter who or how many want Thaksin back or not. It's for HM to decide.

[TAWP]

There are several posters ('s wives) here that support the Red Shirts (and by extension PT when it came around to the election) while claiming that they don't like Thaksin very much or in some cases not at all.

What does these posters feel about hearing that PT now equates a vote for them as a vote to exonerate Thaksin of all past misdeeds and that helping Thaksin goes ahead of any other struggle?

[yoshiwara]

There are several posters ('s wives) here that support the Red Shirts (and by extension PT when it came around to the election) while claiming that they don't like Thaksin very much or in some cases not at all.

What does these posters feel about hearing that PT now equates a vote for them as a vote to exonerate Thaksin of all past misdeeds and that helping Thaksin goes ahead of any other struggle?

As you know, it will not be a problem for them, nor has it ever been.

[TAWP]

You might be right, then then I suggest their refusal to admit that their opposition is merely in words and not thought isn't continued.

[hanuman1]

A large portion of those voting for PTP at the last election did want Thaksin back and the PTP are mindful that they need to make some strides towards that at the very least to keep them happy.

Putting his return on the manifesto would have riled up those anti-democratic forces that saw the army stage the last coup. It would clearly have resulted in more friction, and besides, the unwritten contract to try and bring him back was well understood between the PTP and Red Shirted voters.

I've always thought though, that there was a significant number of people - perhaps middle-class Thais - that voted PTP just as a protest vote against the Dems. These people I believe didn't really mind whether or not Thaksin came back, they just wanted anti-democratic elements to stop messing with their elected governments.

Thais who hate Thaksin and/or don't want him back, of course, would never have voted PTP anyway.

So really, I don't think anyone who voted for PTP would be overly upset or surprised by Chalerm's utterances.

Those who voted for a different party could hardly be surprised either, as it's just more Thaksin-led BS from their point of view. Nothing new there.

Edited November 26, 2011 by hanuman1

[TAWP]

A large portion of those voting for PTP at the last election did want Thaksin back and the PTP are mindful that they need to make some strides towards that at the very least to keep them happy.

Putting his return on the manifesto would have riled up those anti-democratic forces that saw the army stage the last coup. It would clearly have resulted in more friction, and besides, the unwritten contract to try and bring him back was well understood between the PTP and Red Shirted voters.

I've always thought though, that there was a significant number of people - perhaps middle-class Thais - that voted PTP just as a protest vote against the Dems. These people I believe didn't really mind whether or not Thaksin came back, they just wanted anti-democratic elements to stop messing with their elected governments.

Thais who hate Thaksin and/or don't want him back, of course, would never have voted PTP anyway.

So really, I don't think anyone who voted for PTP would be overly upset or surprised by Chalerm's utterances.

Those who voted for a different party could hardly be surprised either, as it's just more Thaksin-led BS from their point of view. Nothing new there.

So what you say is that by looking at the numbers we can be sure that there is NOT a majority that explicitly want Thaksin back?

Thanks for that clarification and refute of some other posters attempts to make this a 'majority' wish.