Making Merit

[fabianfred]

Ananda, of these fourteen kinds of offering, an offering made to an animal would result in a hundred fold benefit. An offering made to a common worldling who is without morality would result in a thousandfold benefit. An offering made to a common worldling who is endowed with morality would result in a hundred- thousand-fold benefit. An offering made in a period when the Buddha's Teaching is absent to one who lives detached from sensual pleasures would result in benefit multiplied by a thousand crores. An offering made to one who is practising to attain Sotapatti Fruition would result in benefit which is immeasurable and limitless. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to a Sotapanna. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to one who is practising to attain Sakadagami Fruition. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to a Sakadagami. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to one who is practising to attain Anagami Fruition. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to an Anagami. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to one who is practising to attain Arahatta Fruition. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to an arahat. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to a Paccekabuddha. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to a Tathagata who is worthy of special veneration and who is Perfectly Self-Enlightened.

from here... http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/uparidak.htm

also these are good... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/merit.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/various/wheel367.html

[Brucenkhamen]

Ananda, of these fourteen kinds of offering, an offering made to an animal would result in a hundred fold benefit. An offering made to a common worldling who is without morality would result in a thousandfold benefit. An offering made to a common worldling who is endowed with morality would result in a hundred- thousand-fold benefit. An offering made in a period when the Buddha's Teaching is absent to one who lives detached from sensual pleasures would result in benefit multiplied by a thousand crores. An offering made to one who is practising to attain Sotapatti Fruition would result in benefit which is immeasurable and limitless. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to a Sotapanna. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to one who is practising to attain Sakadagami Fruition. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to a Sakadagami. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to one who is practising to attain Anagami Fruition. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to an Anagami. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to one who is practising to attain Arahatta Fruition. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to an arahat. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to a Paccekabuddha. There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit that accrues from an offering made to a Tathagata who is worthy of special veneration and who is Perfectly Self-Enlightened.

I'll study that sutta when I get more time but on the surface of it it also appears to debunk the Thai pamphlet you posted.

You'll notice that of the fourteen kinds of offering listed the first 5 are listed in a way that you could probably derive a mathematical formula but the rest begin with "There is no need to say how much more would be the benefit...".

So that Thai pamphlet has gone and done exactly what the Buddha said there was no need to go and do.

I might have missed something but it appears to me that the Buddha was counselling against precisely the kind of spiritual materialism that pamphlet advocates.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Brucenkhamen

[rockyysdt]

So that Thai pamphlet has gone and done exactly what the Buddha said there was no need to go and do.

I might have missed something but it appears to me that the Buddha was counselling against precisely the kind of spiritual materialism that pamphlet advocates.

I'm firmly convinced that practicing Buddhists should stick to the core teachings of the eightfold path, including sitting meditation, mindfulness, precepts and metta, but should also become involved in questioning translations and aim to uncover what the Buddha actually taught.

Everytime I've been to the Buddhist section of a well stocked book store I refrain from making a selection for fear of being influenced by more mistranslations.

From what I've already uncovered, Theravada as presented by Buddhaghosa in the 5th century has deviated from the original works of the Buddha, and Mahayana has taken this deviation further.

Edited January 23, 2012 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

The main point of it all...is to realise that practicing vipassana meditation...with a goal to leave behind the state of being an ordinary worldly one and get oneself firmly upon the path to nibbana...is the real message behind all the teachings....and it also aquires the most merit of all actions...because it is so important and so difficult to do.

Please don't kill the messenger...I only translated the booklet....I didn't write it.

Getting all worked up over this translation or that....and being offended is faintly rediculous...

[rgs2001uk]

The main point of it all...is to realise that practicing vipassana meditation...with a goal to leave behind the state of being an ordinary worldly one and get oneself firmly upon the path to nibbana...is the real message behind all the teachings....and it also aquires the most merit of all actions...because it is so important and so difficult to do.

Please don't kill the messenger...I only translated the booklet....I didn't write it.

Getting all worked up over this translation or that....and being offended is faintly rediculous...

Please indulge me, if we assume "nibbana" to be a verb and not a noun, is it possible to reach "nibbana" in this lifetime?

[aussiebebe]

I often get dragged along to a temple in Bang Phee by my Thai wife when she wants to make merit and I'm constantly amazed at how Thais subscribe to almost every quasi-superstitious act imaginable.

They've got candles, incense sticks, flowers, food offerings, money, gold leaf rubbings, white paste rubbings, floating candles, oil offerings, special water, pots of sticks that you shake, little bowls you put coins into, chanting, praying, ringing bells, being blessed, buying things for monks, prayers on paper, drawings on slates, lucky numbers, lucky medallions, getting sprayed with special water, collection boxes, a dozen lottery sellers.....

Why don't they just find one thing that actually works and stick with it?

[Brucenkhamen]

Why don't they just find one thing that actually works and stick with it?

Perhaps because they haven't found anything that works

I do find this kind of bizarre behaviour less prevalent with Thais who have a basic understanding of what the Buddha taught, and less prevalent among the educated middle class.

[Brucenkhamen]

The main point of it all...is to realise that practicing vipassana meditation...with a goal to leave behind the state of being an ordinary worldly one and get oneself firmly upon the path to nibbana...is the real message behind all the teachings....and it also aquires the most merit of all actions...because it is so important and so difficult to do.

Please don't kill the messenger...I only translated the booklet....I didn't write it.

Getting all worked up over this translation or that....and being offended is faintly rediculous...

You didn't just translate it, you posted it on a forum where people are unlikely to buy into the message contained therein, and then abdicated responsibility when people got worked up.

If you do believe as you say, and as I do, that vipassana meditation is the main point of it all then better to stay on message don't you think?

[fabianfred]

The main point of it all...is to realise that practicing vipassana meditation...with a goal to leave behind the state of being an ordinary worldly one and get oneself firmly upon the path to nibbana...is the real message behind all the teachings....and it also aquires the most merit of all actions...because it is so important and so difficult to do.

Please don't kill the messenger...I only translated the booklet....I didn't write it.

Getting all worked up over this translation or that....and being offended is faintly rediculous...

Please indulge me, if we assume "nibbana" to be a verb and not a noun, is it possible to reach "nibbana" in this lifetime?

Nibbana (Nirvana) is a state of being....not a place or realm one goes to...

If I rid myself of all ten fetters to realising the truth I reach Nibbana and attain to the Arahant state...having completed my task and done all that I am supposed to do. I continue the rest of this, my final existence in Samsara, still able to suffer the effects of past karma but unfazed by it all, and after death ........(to know this one must get there).

It is difficult to reach Nibbana in a single lifetime...so therefore our main immediate goal shoul;d be stream-entry, which brings safety from being reborn in the four lower realms, a much more attainable goal in this very lifetime, attained to by the practice of vipassana.

[fabianfred]

The main point of it all...is to realise that practicing vipassana meditation...with a goal to leave behind the state of being an ordinary worldly one and get oneself firmly upon the path to nibbana...is the real message behind all the teachings....and it also aquires the most merit of all actions...because it is so important and so difficult to do.

Please don't kill the messenger...I only translated the booklet....I didn't write it.

Getting all worked up over this translation or that....and being offended is faintly rediculous...

You didn't just translate it, you posted it on a forum where people are unlikely to buy into the message contained therein, and then abdicated responsibility when people got worked up.

If you do believe as you say, and as I do, that vipassana meditation is the main point of it all then better to stay on message don't you think?

The Buddha said that the Dhamma is deep, not easily believed by the many, not easily understood by the many...

Those who are unable to understand or believe perhaps have not sufficient perfections or good karma to enable them to do so.

We do not all come into this lifetime equals, but are all unique because of our past lives and the karma and wisdom we might have acquired.

[Brucenkhamen]

The Buddha said that the Dhamma is deep, not easily believed by the many, not easily understood by the many...

Those who are unable to understand or believe perhaps have not sufficient perfections or good karma to enable them to do so.

We do not all come into this lifetime equals, but are all unique because of our past lives and the karma and wisdom we might have acquired.

All the more reason to communicate the important things that are important rather than bombard with what is unecessary.

[rockyysdt]

The main point of it all...is to realise that practicing vipassana meditation...with a goal to leave behind the state of being an ordinary worldly one and get oneself firmly upon the path to nibbana...is the real message behind all the teachings....and it also aquires the most merit of all actions...because it is so important and so difficult to do.

Please don't kill the messenger...I only translated the booklet....I didn't write it.

Getting all worked up over this translation or that....and being offended is faintly rediculous...

Please indulge me, if we assume "nibbana" to be a verb and not a noun, is it possible to reach "nibbana" in this lifetime?

Nibbana (Nirvana) is a state of being....not a place or realm one goes to...

If I rid myself of all ten fetters to realising the truth I reach Nibbana and attain to the Arahant state...having completed my task and done all that I am supposed to do. I continue the rest of this, my final existence in Samsara, still able to suffer the effects of past karma but unfazed by it all, and after death ........(to know this one must get there).

It is difficult to reach Nibbana in a single lifetime...so therefore our main immediate goal shoul;d be stream-entry, which brings safety from being reborn in the four lower realms, a much more attainable goal in this very lifetime, attained to by the practice of vipassana.

Nibbana (Nirvana) is a verb not a place or state.

Re Birth into many lives or Re Birth into moment to moment frames is the unanswered question.

Whether the Buddha spoke in a carefully packaged manner in order to present his path in such a way that was understand by thinkers of the time, whilst subtly deflecting the attention of those who would kill him if he openly taught against prevailing beliefs (Brahmanism), or whether the Buddha actually taught of an actual type of Buddhist reincarnation, this is the question.

Reflecting on the Buddhas teachings, it is easy for the ego to affix to the latter which includes the appealing notion of instant immortality (many lives) with a consequential attachment to self.

On the other hand, subscribing to Re birth as a moment by moment event fits in to the teaching of non self, and awakening from delusion, aversion & greed, attachment to which fuels the ego.

Is Awakening a journey to a state where one reunites permanently with a Buddha heaven, or is Awakening a continuous undertaking through which one lives in the absence of greed, aversion & delusion?

An undertaking, which fully realized, unleashes mankinds full potential (whilst they still live).

The notion of stream entry suggests a grasping of immortality which can only fuel the ego and is the strongest form of attachment which can exist.

Edited January 24, 2012 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

Speaking of accurate translations, grammatically speaking nibbana/nirvana is a noun, not a verb. It means 'snuffing out,' 'going out,' or 'extinction,' as in the extinction of a flame.

It's sometimes translated "blowing out", but when I studied Pali and Sanskrit for two years at university, I saw that that idea is somewhat misleading since it carries the connotation of someone or something blowing out a flame. In this case the Skrt roots are nir (negation prefix, equivalent to 'non') and va ('to draw' in the way a fire draws oxygen, fuel etc), so the term refers to the dying out of a flame, fire or other combustible process. It is thus a soteriological goal, ie, the state of no longer burning.

[Brucenkhamen]

Speaking of accurate translations, grammatically speaking nibbana/nirvana is a noun, not a verb. It means 'snuffing out,' 'going out,' or 'extinction,' as in the extinction of a flame.

It's sometimes translated "blowing out", but when I studied Pali and Sanskrit for two years at university, I saw that that idea is somewhat misleading since it carries the connotation of someone or something blowing out a flame. In this case the Skrt roots are nir (negation prefix, equivalent to 'non') and va ('to draw' in the way a fire draws oxygen, fuel etc), so the term refers to the dying out of a flame, fire or other combustible process. It is thus a soteriological goal, ie, the state of no longer burning.

English grammer was never my strongpoint but did you just say nibbana is a noun and then use a whole lot of verbs to define it?

From what I've learned the original word nibbana just meant cooling down and was a normal everyday word for when you'd stand a pot for a while to cool down after cooking, you'd nibbana it for a while, so was a verb.

The Buddha used this ordinary everyday phrase as a metaphor for the awakened state, so I guess that made it into a noun.

[sabaijai]

Verbs can become nouns, depending on usage. Some English verbs have pure noun forms, as in "expansion," the noun form of "expand." But in English, "(the) going out" or "(the) cooling down: are gerundives, verb forms that function as nouns.

Pali and Sanskrit don't need gerundives as all verb roots can be transformed into nouns (in the same way 'expand' can become 'expansion').

In this case, nirvana/nibbana is firmly a noun -- ie, to be used either as the subject or object of an utterance -- not a verb.

[rockyysdt]

Verbs can become nouns, depending on usage. Some English verbs have pure noun forms, as in "expansion," the noun form of "expand." But in English, "(the) going out" or "(the) cooling down: are gerundives, verb forms that function as nouns.

Pali and Sanskrit don't need gerundives as all verb roots can be transformed into nouns (in the same way 'expand' can become 'expansion').

In this case, nirvana/nibbana is firmly a noun -- ie, to be used either as the subject or object of an utterance -- not a verb.

Hi SJ.

I'm interested in why you gravitate to Nirvana/Nibbana firmly being a noun in this case?

What I've been learning is that most of the vocabulary used by Pali scholars in the 5th & 19th centuries (whose works constitute much of current Theravada & Mahayana tradition) was based on a Judeo/Christian background resulting in incorrect translations.

Much of the Wests vocabulary was related to belief systems rather than vocabulary of practice associated with the East at the Buddhas time.

If you were to ask someone around the time of the Buddha, "What do you believe in" they would look at you strangely.

In those times people were defined by what they did (verb) rather than what they believed.

Nirvana/Nibbana : No longer clinging, blowing out, ending identity with material phenomena, performance of neutral actors.

It is all related to effort (verb - to do).

If one subscribes to Re Birth as being a moment to moment event, there is immortality in the moment.

Total awareness in the moment, intensely experienced as if for the first time is life and is the opposite of Mara.

Mara is the killer of life. We follow our greed, aversion & delusion. We get so caught in the desire that the experience is killed.

In meditation, when we sit with expectation, we miss the experience.

Contrary to the notion of Nirvana/Nibbana being a place or noun, at which once arrived you have made it to a permanent state of heaven (this goes against anata - no self, and annica - impermanence), contemporary Sanskrit & Pali scholars who have been studying the very early works of the Buddha, are learning that Nirvana/Nibbana is an action or verb.

Without the presence of suitable conditions cultivated by continual practice, future re births of moment to moment experience are subject to the return of Dukkha.

Old patterns reassert themselves.

Sometime after achieving enlightenment, during a period of suffering the Buddha was heard to say: "I know all about you Mara, go away".

The new studies of the Buddhas early works is suggestive that Awakening is not the "big bang" mystical experience which orthodox Buddhists teach, but rather "seeing the way things really are".

Janic practice with all its sublime experiences is pointless without inquiry & investigation.

Far from offering immortality the Buddha shows the way to a life free from aversion, delusion, & greed.

This includes the understanding of anata (not self), annica (impermanence), & dukkha (unsatisfactoriness).

Nirvana/Nibbana the noun doesn't really make sense.

It seems to be attractive to those religiously inclined as it clings to the formula of immortality which not only inflates the ego, something which our practice is intended to reduce, but is contrary to the core teaching of anata & annica.

If one subscribes to the notion of existence of a permanent state of Nirvana/Nibbana (noun), one either becomes annihilated (re birth ceases) or exists forever unchanging and free of re birth, which is an impossibility due to anata.

Just my thoughts.

Edited January 26, 2012 by rockyysdt

[fabianfred]

Scholars have and will always quibble over hidden meanings and words...trying to find something special which wasn't there and wasn't hidden. They waste their precious time instead of practicing.

Get there and they'll know already...no more need for doubt.

Nibbana is the only thing not subject to the three characteristics....suffering, impermanence and non-self..

[rockyysdt]

Scholars have and will always quibble over hidden meanings and words...trying to find something special which wasn't there and wasn't hidden. They waste their precious time instead of practicing.

Get there and they'll know already...no more need for doubt.

Nibbana is the only thing not subject to the three characteristics....suffering, impermanence and non-self..

Buddhagosa was also a scholar.

Buddhagosa collated, interpreted and edited written and oral works of the Buddha 1,000 years after his death.

His interpretations founded Theravada tradition as we know it today.

Isn't it much better to go back to the Buddhas original works and interpret them for ourselves?

Isn't the originators works more authentic than those of someone who lived during the dark ages?

Isn't part of the Buddhist tradition, as implored by the Buddha himself, to investigate rather than accept the traditional way without question just because people have done it that way for years?

Although Nibbana is the only thing not subject to the three characteristics....suffering, impermanence and non-self, if it is a verb, then there must be a "doer".

It's the "doer" who is subject to impermanence, non self, and duhhka not Nibbana.

Edited January 27, 2012 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Nibbana is the only thing not subject to the three characteristics....suffering, impermanence and non-self..

In other words, Nibbana is not subject to the three characteristics....suffering, impermanence and non-self but the doer is.

[rockyysdt]

Scholars waste their precious time instead of practicing.

I'd imagine, as with the general population there are probably many scholars who may not practice diligently.

John Peacock, whose works I have particular interest in, practiced as an ordained Monk for 25 years, both in the Tibetan & the Thai Forest traditions.

Amongst other things he's involved in teaching and practicing sitting meditation focused on Metta.

Another scholar, Bikkhu Analayo consistently meditates for four days in a row each week, sitting and walking for for up to 12 hours each day, followed by three days of study.

He finds that the clarity he achieves from his strong practice assists him greatly with his scholarship.

He's a prolific author of many works publishing up to 12 articles a year, involving the analysis of the Buddhas early texts and later translations.

He's been quoted as saying that practice should be the number one priority in each persons life.

Edited January 27, 2012 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

Verbs can become nouns, depending on usage. Some English verbs have pure noun forms, as in "expansion," the noun form of "expand." But in English, "(the) going out" or "(the) cooling down: are gerundives, verb forms that function as nouns.

Pali and Sanskrit don't need gerundives as all verb roots can be transformed into nouns (in the same way 'expand' can become 'expansion').

In this case, nirvana/nibbana is firmly a noun -- ie, to be used either as the subject or object of an utterance -- not a verb.

Verbs...nouns...is there a difference? After all, in an infinite universe of anicca (impermanence), nothing is static or substantive, and there's a very, very long time available for processes to move from becoming to being to becoming, and so on ... ad infinitum. Maybe nouns are just really slow verbs (processes)... like glass. I'm not being too serious here, but maybe it's better not to get too anxious about whether nibbana is a verb or a noun.

Actually, I suspect "nibbana/nirvana" is like "God" - impossible to define in any referential sense. An "unconditioned state of being" is not a state of being at all, nor is it a process. We're better off to just "stick to the knitting" (or "sitting" for Buddhists) and do our best to live each moment fully and in service to all existing beings (from whom we derive our own existence). No need to aim for or think about Nibbana/Nirvana.

[rockyysdt]

Verbs can become nouns, depending on usage. Some English verbs have pure noun forms, as in "expansion," the noun form of "expand." But in English, "(the) going out" or "(the) cooling down: are gerundives, verb forms that function as nouns.

Pali and Sanskrit don't need gerundives as all verb roots can be transformed into nouns (in the same way 'expand' can become 'expansion').

In this case, nirvana/nibbana is firmly a noun -- ie, to be used either as the subject or object of an utterance -- not a verb.

Verbs...nouns...is there a difference? After all, in an infinite universe of anicca (impermanence), nothing is static or substantive, and there's a very, very long time available for processes to move from becoming to being to becoming, and so on ... ad infinitum. Maybe nouns are just really slow verbs (processes)... like glass. I'm not being too serious here, but maybe it's better not to get too anxious about whether nibbana is a verb or a noun.

Actually, I suspect "nibbana/nirvana" is like "God" - impossible to define in any referential sense. An "unconditioned state of being" is not a state of being at all, nor is it a process. We're better off to just "stick to the knitting" (or "sitting" for Buddhists) and do our best to live each moment fully and in service to all existing beings (from whom we derive our own existence). No need to aim for or think about Nibbana/Nirvana.

I hope I haven't sounded anxious in my posts.

I also hope Fred understands that I have total respect for him and his endeavors to follow the path.

Sometimes one can sound adversarial when putting forward points of discussion, but my aim is to share knowledge and stimulate open discussion.

I suspect there are a number of concerns which hinge on whether the Buddha used Nirvana/Nibbana as a noun or verb.

One thing that comes to mind is the issue of re birth into future lives, a view capable of stimulating ego.

Another is the belief in stream entry, a view which gives one permission to proceed less diligently knowing that things will fall into place over several lifetimes.

The late Ajahn Buddhadasa was quoted as saying that Buddhagosa was a closet Hindu for his clinging to re birth and future lives, a hangover from the belief of reincarnation.

These cascade to other beliefs, such as the situation of women and Nuns, relegated by a belief that their birth as a female was somehow due to the fruits of past karma, and that their future re birth as a man is just around the corner and should carry them to the final stage of enlightenment.

Interestingly Bikkhu Analayo who specialises in the comparative study of early Buddhist discourses, looks for similarities and differences in discourses carried down different transmission lineages.

This kind of academic study gives us the ability to go all the way back to the earliest stages of Buddhist literature.

The study involves discourses written in Pali, Chinese, Sanskrit, &Tibetan.

In a discourse presented to a Sangha as an example of his work, he revealed that in the Pali version, there was a subtle but unconvincing attempt to change the gender of the Monk carrying this discourse from a woman to a man.

One can only surmise why this took place, and the repercussions which followed down the ages.

On a positive note a high percentage of the discourses which were subject to Bikkhu Analayo's studies are on the whole quite accurate.

The message seems to be that Buddhism is a practice for everyday life and not a place you go to.

Edited January 28, 2012 by rockyysdt

[bankei]

phew!!! is there a Buddhist Merit calculator I can use?

No, but there is an app for the iphone!

[Dave9000]

"And not to be picky...but the people of Japan would probably like to be refered to as Japanese not Japlanders".

IMAFALANG...That is being picky. For the record, most people from the Land of The Rising Sun would not know the word 'Japanese'; you see, it is a foreign language. Try 'Nihonjin', then at least when you are being picky, you can also be correct. Incidentally Nihonjin means people from the land of Japan;ie Japlanders.

Better go make some theoretical merit......

And have your lotto numbers blessed at the same time,

And, pray for the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and the Great Pumpkin at the same time.

There's nothing like insurance!

[sabaijai]

Verbs can become nouns, depending on usage. Some English verbs have pure noun forms, as in "expansion," the noun form of "expand." But in English, "(the) going out" or "(the) cooling down: are gerundives, verb forms that function as nouns.

Pali and Sanskrit don't need gerundives as all verb roots can be transformed into nouns (in the same way 'expand' can become 'expansion').

In this case, nirvana/nibbana is firmly a noun -- ie, to be used either as the subject or object of an utterance -- not a verb.

Hi SJ.

I'm interested in why you gravitate to Nirvana/Nibbana firmly being a noun in this case?

What I've been learning is that most of the vocabulary used by Pali scholars in the 5th & 19th centuries (whose works constitute much of current Theravada & Mahayana tradition) was based on a Judeo/Christian background resulting in incorrect translations.

Much of the Wests vocabulary was related to belief systems rather than vocabulary of practice associated with the East at the Buddhas time.

If you were to ask someone around the time of the Buddha, "What do you believe in" they would look at you strangely.

In those times people were defined by what they did (verb) rather than what they believed.

Nirvana/Nibbana : No longer clinging, blowing out, ending identity with material phenomena, performance of neutral actors.

It is all related to effort (verb - to do).

It is not a matter of 'gravitating,' or interpretation. It is the direct parsing for the word, ie, grammatically speaking, in both Pali and in Sanskrit nibbana/nirvana is a noun. Look in any Pali dictionary and it will be clearly identified as a noun.

Just as the English phrases 'blowing out' or 'cooling down' may appear in a sentence as a noun. English doesn't have a noun form of 'blowing out' etc, only the gerundive, which is a verb functioning as a noun. So that confuses people who don't understand English grammar.It's a matter of syntax, nothing whatsoever to do with translation or interpretation. Again, as with the words 'expansion,' 'extinction,' and 'construction,' all of which are nouns, there is no confusion in the Pali/Sanskri grammar for nibbana/nirvana.

It is also clear from the usage that it refers to a state of being ('being': another example of an English verb used as a noun).

It's just the way the language works. You may choose to interpret it differently, but it won't change the reality

[rockyysdt]

Verbs can become nouns, depending on usage. Some English verbs have pure noun forms, as in "expansion," the noun form of "expand." But in English, "(the) going out" or "(the) cooling down: are gerundives, verb forms that function as nouns.

Pali and Sanskrit don't need gerundives as all verb roots can be transformed into nouns (in the same way 'expand' can become 'expansion').

In this case, nirvana/nibbana is firmly a noun -- ie, to be used either as the subject or object of an utterance -- not a verb.

Hi SJ.

I'm interested in why you gravitate to Nirvana/Nibbana firmly being a noun in this case?

What I've been learning is that most of the vocabulary used by Pali scholars in the 5th & 19th centuries (whose works constitute much of current Theravada & Mahayana tradition) was based on a Judeo/Christian background resulting in incorrect translations.

Much of the Wests vocabulary was related to belief systems rather than vocabulary of practice associated with the East at the Buddhas time.

If you were to ask someone around the time of the Buddha, "What do you believe in" they would look at you strangely.

In those times people were defined by what they did (verb) rather than what they believed.

Nirvana/Nibbana : No longer clinging, blowing out, ending identity with material phenomena, performance of neutral actors.

It is all related to effort (verb - to do).

It is not a matter of 'gravitating,' or interpretation. It is the direct parsing for the word, ie, grammatically speaking, in both Pali and in Sanskrit nibbana/nirvana is a noun. Look in any Pali dictionary and it will be clearly identified as a noun.

Just as the English phrases 'blowing out' or 'cooling down' may appear in a sentence as a noun. English doesn't have a noun form of 'blowing out' etc, only the gerundive, which is a verb functioning as a noun. So that confuses people who don't understand English grammar.It's a matter of syntax, nothing whatsoever to do with translation or interpretation. Again, as with the words 'expansion,' 'extinction,' and 'construction,' all of which are nouns, there is no confusion in the Pali/Sanskri grammar for nibbana/nirvana.

It is also clear from the usage that it refers to a state of being ('being': another example of an English verb used as a noun).

It's just the way the language works. You may choose to interpret it differently, but it won't change the reality

My interest in this post revolves around merit and how ones intentions affect it.

We spoke of accumulating merit in order to become enlightenment.

Some speak of accumulating merit as a way of ascending towards enlightenment, a permanent state achieved once the pinnacle has been climbed,

whilst others subscribe to the achievement of awakening as something we aim for in this life, allowing one to be free from aversion, delusion & greed.

That this is not a permanent state (Nirvana/Nibbana) but requires constant practice (Nirvana/Nibbana) a verb or doing, in order to yield a liberated life free of Dukkha.

If I can come back to you on this position later.

Interestingly in the Sutta: Samyutta Nikaya Devas come to question the Buddha on a variety of matters.

In these stories, by placing himself above these Gods, the Buddha is parodying or making fun of them.

In other words, the power and existence of Gods (Devas) is a mental state.

In one such conversation the Deva says:

I've been walking forever and cannot find the end of the world.

I've been walking hither and tither to find the end of the world and still cannot find it.

The end of the world of Dukkha and suffering.

The Buddha replied:

You will not find the end of Dukkha by travelling.

Only by being in this fathom long carcass (body).

The origin of the world and the end of the world is to be found in this fathom long carcass. No where else.

The fathom long carcass is a physical body.

The Brahmans believed that all truth was to be found in the cosmos with the Gods (metaphysics).

The Buddha then said:

This fathom long carcass, endowed with its eyes, its ears, its nose and everything else, is where it is to be found.

This is where we find liberation and awakening (Nirvana/Nibbana) not in a metaphysical unreality.

Awakening, (not "enlightenment" which is an 18th century word) is not a metaphysical event where one finds oneself permanently in Nirvana/Nibbana (Buddhist heaven) for eternity, but very much a physical thing in which one has truly become awakened in this life. This awakening can only be sustained by continued practice (eight fold path) in order to keep the flame from reigniting and live a life to its maximum potential free from Dukkha.

To pursue merit purely for personal gain is no merit at all, but to reach out to another and feel their pain as though it was yours is steeped in egoless merit.

Edited January 31, 2012 by rockyysdt

[sabaijai]

Off topic: I don't want to digress further on the Pali grammar vis a vis nibbana, except to mention that I was wrong about nibbana/nirvana being parsed as a noun, syntax-wise. It is an adjective.

For further explanation and an earlier discussion, see this thread:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__5019929

Back to making merit .... another verb phrase that functions as a noun

[Jawnie]

Off topic: I don't want to digress further on the Pali grammar vis a vis nibbana, except to mention that I was wrong about nibbana/nirvana being parsed as a noun, syntax-wise. It is an adjective.

For further explanation and an earlier discussion, see this thread:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__5019929

Back to making merit .... another verb phrase that functions as a noun

Oy, I wish I had the time....

This is a present progressive sentence reduced for simplicity. "Making merit" really means "I am making merit", "she is making merit", "he/she/it is making merit." "Making" has the same meaning as "making cookies" or "making a mess", it means doing something. It's not any different for making merit - you are making something, in this case, merit. 'To make merit' is simple present using the infinitive form, although it's unnecessary = "I make merit, you make merit, he/she/it makes merit". The grammar is simple and typical.

"Merit making" is a specialize usage. Not sure if "cookie making" or "dinner making", or "coffee making" can be said to have the same meaning or acceptance. "Merit making" seems to have a specialize use for specific situations, ie., performing specific Buddhist offering practices and rituals for the purpose of generating merit as defined in Buddhist literature.

[sabaijai]

Off topic: I don't want to digress further on the Pali grammar vis a vis nibbana, except to mention that I was wrong about nibbana/nirvana being parsed as a noun, syntax-wise. It is an adjective.

For further explanation and an earlier discussion, see this thread:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__5019929

Back to making merit .... another verb phrase that functions as a noun

Oy, I wish I had the time....

This is a present progressive sentence reduced for simplicity. "Making merit" really means "I am making merit", "she is making merit", "he/she/it is making merit." "Making" has the same meaning as "making cookies" or "making a mess", it means doing something. It's not any different for making merit - you are making something, in this case, merit. 'To make merit' is simple present using the infinitive form, although it's unnecessary = "I make merit, you make merit, he/she/it makes merit". The grammar is simple and typical.

"Merit making" is a specialize usage. Not sure if "cookie making" or "dinner making", or "coffee making" can be said to have the same meaning or acceptance. "Merit making" seems to have a specialize use for specific situations, ie., performing specific Buddhist offering practices and rituals for the purpose of generating merit as defined in Buddhist literature.

It's not reduced present progressive, rather a gerundive. In my post "merit making" is the object of a preposition ("to"), and thus functions a noun. It is the subject of two sentences in your post, and thus also functions as a noun in those cases. Verbs may be used as nouns, especially in cases where, as in the verb "to make," there is no pure noun form.

I fear we're getting too hung up on grammar (for which I share part of the blame, to be sure!). Call it verb or noun, everyone knows what merit-making is in general terms, so the part of speech isn't so relevant. In the case of nibbana, parts of speech might be more relevant since the definition of nibbana tends to generate much debate. Best discussed in the 'verb for nibbana' thread out of respect for the OP.

[Brucenkhamen]

I'm not sure there is much merit (pun intended) in debating the nuances of an english translation of a Thai phrase.

I believe the pali term is puññābhisanda which is translated as accumulation of merit rather than making of merit.

If that is a good translation then I think the emphasis is less on making something happen but more on storing or collecting it I guess.