How Hard Are You Prepared To Work . . .

[robblok]

Sort of like a government that says another country has WMD's so they can wage war? Or certain politicians (read Republicans) who hope their country would fail so that their party can return to power? Or certain countries who say they're not manipulating their currency? Or certain countries that believe that Assad should stay in power? Or a certain cruise ship captain who insists that he didn't abandon ship? We can go at this all day long about pretty much any country. What's your point?

Point is it happens all the time here, the flooding was just a great example of it. I don't deny that it happens somewhere else too. But not on the scale you see here. Also repercussions are had if you lie. The captain is going to be punished. Here if you are caught you just go to an inactive post.

I don't see it happening that much in social circles...but then that depends on the circle that you associate with. In political circles, that's normal, as it is in the realm of politics in any country. That was my point, that politicians lie and it's not a Thai thing or a face thing. The captain was sort of a bad example as he's clearly not a politician.

If you say so.. where i come from "The Netherlands" there are repercussions for lying politicians. Certainly if they lie as much as the Thai government does. Maybe its different in the USA.

[kurnell]

Yeah, I have 2 farangs and 10 Thais in my office and all Thais at home. Again, what amI missing?

Hm. You are only thinking about your own benefit while living with Thais. And you are making no compromises whatsoever, and you are proud of it.

OK.....

I really do not have a clue what you are talking about.

We may have a misunderstand here. I'll try to explain my side:

1. You say you are here only for your own benefit.

2. I conclude that since you are not interested in the benefit of the Thai people around you, you can't have any Thai people around you.

3. You say that you do.

4. I question that you don't care about them. In fact, I think you do.

Does it make sense now?

(Had to delete some quotes because the system wouldn't let me have "too many" opening/closing tags.)

Come to my office and ask them. And I am here for my benefit only. Doesn't mean I hate everyone

[travelmann]

I have not made and will not make any preparation for the Thais, thank you.

You must have reasons for living in Thailand that do not include living with Thais. Would you like to share with us?

Wife and her wanting to stay in Thailand , in effect I sacrificed what i wanted for her, I could have lived in Madeira ( first choice) or Spain/UK

[Deaw]

The OP lost me as soon as he mentioned something about dressing a certain way.

I live on a tropical island.....the uniform here is flip-flops, shorts and t-shirts, for locals and farang as well.

I am accepted just fine because I dress and act like everyone else; on the rare occasion I go to BKK I will throw on sneakers and maybe a nicer style shirt with a collar, but still always shorts; it's 92 degrees and humid here fer crissakes!

[IanForbes]

Very good post, David48. I agree with most of what you said. I am single and intend to STAY single, so my viewpoint might be slightly different than yours. But, I treat everyone with respect and I've seen a farang lose his business because he didn't know how to treat Thais with respect. It can be a very subtle thing this topic about Asian "face".

So far in 15 years of spending 5 months a year in Thailand I can't say I've ever had a bad experience with Thais. I've been treated like an ATM machine far more times than I can count, but that is only because I intentionally let myself be manipulated. And, I always thought what I got out of the situation was worth every penny (baht).

[Mosha]

I have five names that I know of ; Book Luke , Kun Luke , Luke Oi , Farang ( probably not capital F) and Bok Si Da and that is only up country . Oh I nearly forgot , Mister . Uch it is water off a duck's back . And as for the tescotheque , pah !

edit ; Insight - I prefer a cool water manday to the hot water emerser .

You forgot "You!"

[pxlgirl]

If you decide to live in another country, you should integrate yourself to some degree, as you'd expect the same from foreigners moving to your home country, right? What I mean by "some degree" is a balance between adjusting to a new way of life while still keeping your own roots alive. This is not as easy as it seems, because you have to make a choice on which values are you willing/able to compromise. It may come with time, unless you keep reflecting yourself and others. It's not about becoming one of "them" or vice versa, this is a mission impossible based on ethnical roots. Accepting certain differences, as well as learning new things and sharing experiences can be a huge benefit for both sides, if both are willing to of course. Despite cultural differences, there are certain rules that apply for everyone. A few of them are, being a good, open-minded and honest, not lie, steal, rape, kill...

As far as material goods and clothing go, it depends on how much value you give those things: Are you wearing a Gucci bag because of its status or because of its quality?

[inthepink]

Anyone who thinks that Western culture is superior to Thai culture because we don't lie to save face has clearly not spent very long perusing this board.

One of the differences I have noticed is that many Thai people will freely admit that bending the truth is part of their culture whereas those from the West would like us to believe that they come from a country where truth is valued above all else. Memory loss may be part of the reason for this... A lot of Westerners appear to be hypocritical liars who are desperate to claim the moral high ground when in Thailand as they have very little else to recommend them.

[F1fanatic]

Anyone who thinks that Western culture is superior to Thai culture because we don't lie to save face has clearly not spent very long perusing this board.

One of the differences I have noticed is that many Thai people will freely admit that bending the truth is part of their culture whereas those from the West would like us to believe that they come from a country where truth is valued above all else. Memory loss may be part of the reason for this... A lot of Westerners appear to be hypocritical liars who are desperate to claim the moral high ground when in Thailand as they have very little else to recommend them.

In my experience it is (some) Westerners who have had bad experiences here themselves, that decide to adopt the practise of lying and cheating.

We ALL lie to a certain extent, but some of us only do so to protect others' feelings or to make an anecdote more interesting.

[inthepink]

Anyone who thinks that Western culture is superior to Thai culture because we don't lie to save face has clearly not spent very long perusing this board.

One of the differences I have noticed is that many Thai people will freely admit that bending the truth is part of their culture whereas those from the West would like us to believe that they come from a country where truth is valued above all else. Memory loss may be part of the reason for this... A lot of Westerners appear to be hypocritical liars who are desperate to claim the moral high ground when in Thailand as they have very little else to recommend them.

In my experience it is (some) Westerners who have had bad experiences here themselves, that decide to adopt the practise of lying and cheating.

We ALL lie to a certain extent, but some of us only do so to protect others' feelings or to make an anecdote more interesting.

Sure we all lie to a certain extent but you seem to have decided that Thai people almost always do it to make themselves look better rather than to protect others feelings, whereas the noble Westerner does it to protect his fellow man's feelings. Have you come to that conclusion from your own experiences here?

I have to say that I think it's a bit lame to try and excuse lying, cheating foreigners for their actions by blaming them on the fact that they have had a "bad experience" in Thailand. You can't possibly know that for a fact and it makes you sound a little like a "Western apologist", if you don't mind me saying so.

From my own personal observations, Westerners that have bad experiences over here often invite them by their behaviour. (That's not to suggest that everybody who suffers any misfortune in Thailand deserves what they get of course, but some certainly do)

I don't try to fit in at all as that kind of thing doesn't really worry me but I'm ambivalent as to whose culture is better on a day-to-day basis.

Edited February 20, 2012 by inthepink

[F1fanatic]

Anyone who thinks that Western culture is superior to Thai culture because we don't lie to save face has clearly not spent very long perusing this board.

One of the differences I have noticed is that many Thai people will freely admit that bending the truth is part of their culture whereas those from the West would like us to believe that they come from a country where truth is valued above all else. Memory loss may be part of the reason for this... A lot of Westerners appear to be hypocritical liars who are desperate to claim the moral high ground when in Thailand as they have very little else to recommend them.

In my experience it is (some) Westerners who have had bad experiences here themselves, that decide to adopt the practise of lying and cheating.

We ALL lie to a certain extent, but some of us only do so to protect others' feelings or to make an anecdote more interesting.

Sure we all lie to a certain extent but you seem to have decided that Thai people almost always do it to make themselves look better rather than to protect others feelings, whereas the noble Westerner does it to protect his fellow man's feelings. Have you come to that conclusion from your own experiences here?

I have to say that I think it's a bit lame to try and excuse lying, cheating foreigners for their actions by blaming them on the fact that they have had a "bad experience" in Thailand. You can't possibly know that for a fact and it makes you sound a little like a "Western apologist", if you don't mind me saying so.

From my own personal observations, Westerners that have bad experiences over here often invite them by their behaviour. (That's not to suggest that everybody who suffers any misfortune in Thailand deserves what they get of course, but some certainly do)

I don't try to fit in at all as that kind of thing doesn't really worry me but I'm ambivalent as to whose culture is better on a day-to-day basis.

Yes. And, believe me, I'm not excusing the lying, cheating Westerners for one minute! I loathe them with a passion.

[harryfrompattaya]

The point is that it's standard procedure for pretty much every popular tourist destination in the world. That is, they want you to visit but don't want you to stay. I doubt any of these places will come out and say that.

I don't really agree with that. Each country has its own culture and attitude about foreigners. Some countries are more xenophobic than others. When I was looking into Mexico for example as a retirement destination that's not the feeling I got either from the nationals there or talking to expats about their experiences.

To get along in Mexico one must belong to drug gang and cut off heads. That's the culture. Pure and Sample

[inthepink]

Anyone who thinks that Western culture is superior to Thai culture because we don't lie to save face has clearly not spent very long perusing this board.

One of the differences I have noticed is that many Thai people will freely admit that bending the truth is part of their culture whereas those from the West would like us to believe that they come from a country where truth is valued above all else. Memory loss may be part of the reason for this... A lot of Westerners appear to be hypocritical liars who are desperate to claim the moral high ground when in Thailand as they have very little else to recommend them.

In my experience it is (some) Westerners who have had bad experiences here themselves, that decide to adopt the practise of lying and cheating.

We ALL lie to a certain extent, but some of us only do so to protect others' feelings or to make an anecdote more interesting.

Sure we all lie to a certain extent but you seem to have decided that Thai people almost always do it to make themselves look better rather than to protect others feelings, whereas the noble Westerner does it to protect his fellow man's feelings. Have you come to that conclusion from your own experiences here?

I have to say that I think it's a bit lame to try and excuse lying, cheating foreigners for their actions by blaming them on the fact that they have had a "bad experience" in Thailand. You can't possibly know that for a fact and it makes you sound a little like a "Western apologist", if you don't mind me saying so.

From my own personal observations, Westerners that have bad experiences over here often invite them by their behaviour. (That's not to suggest that everybody who suffers any misfortune in Thailand deserves what they get of course, but some certainly do)

I don't try to fit in at all as that kind of thing doesn't really worry me but I'm ambivalent as to whose culture is better on a day-to-day basis.

Yes. And, believe me, I'm not excusing the lying, cheating Westerners for one minute! I loathe them with a passion.

Would you care to share your reasons for thinking that most Thais lie for their own benefit and most Westerners lie to make others feel better? It sounds a little unlikely to me.

[mstribling]

People who get hung up on the Asian "face" deal obviously have never served in any military in the entire world.

Or had a job for that matter. Why just today I told my manager he was a highly effective, leader of men. He wandered off, and probably fell asleep in his office.

Perhaps you don't recall all the "critical thinking" crap we supposedly learned in the university. In the end. You wrote your thesis mirroring the opinion of the professor. Four years of trying to figure out what my professor wanted to hear, and trying to sound original.

I think society depends on blowing smoke up each others butts from time-to-time.

[mstribling]

As far as "work" to fit in, and having respect...

I came here to relax. I live in a modest home, in a modest neighborhood. I ride a motorbike when it's nice, and drive a simple small car when it rains. I'm easy going, and like to stop and joke and chat with everyone. Most people like me, but I don't work at it.

I don't judge people, I don't gossip. I'm generous, but not foolish. I have no problem compromising. I know everyone fears Thais robbing them blind. I've seen it happen. I get it. I don't dwell on it.

The first day I wake up wringing my hands over money, and who is trying to steal it. I'll move on.

As far as attire. I've never given a moments thought to what other people might think beyond decency. I'm not aged, and believe in function over form.

I see so many people so unhappy here because they expend energy and emotion trying to become someone else.

Seems most people burn themselves out trying to avoid looking like a tourist, and one upping the guy next to him about whose brain is the biggest.

[ludditeman]

Perhaps you don't recall all the "critical thinking" crap we supposedly learned in the university. In the end. You wrote your thesis mirroring the opinion of the professor. Four years of trying to figure out what my professor wanted to hear, and trying to sound original.

That's so true!

[phuturatica]

For me personally, I have had to make quite a few changes but not huge significant ones.

I want to learn Thai and I am currently learning. If you live in a country where English is not the native language then you might as well make an effort to learn the native language to some degree so you can get by. I don't really do this to be accepted by Thais, more or less for my own benefit of getting by.

The way I dress... I noticed a few of the replies, mostly from men living here in Thailand to be quite shocked and surprised. "Wait. what? Why does how I dress have to come into it?" If you are a woman in Thailand... You have to make changes, it's as simple as that. Maybe not the men but definitely the women. In the UK I was quite an extravagant alternative dresser and whilst I would love to do that here, it just wouldn't be ideal for this climate and also this society. Also if you are in a relationship with a Thai guy they might not say anything but they have an idea of how they would want you to dress. In other words, no mid- drift showing, no see through tops, no low cleavage type tops, wear skirts which are not too short and if you are wearing a skirt - wear shorts underneath. Your Thai boyfriend wants to show you off with pride and not like you're some hooker on his arm. Thai men consider Thai hookers a lower class and no one wants their girlfriend to look like that if they're in a respectable relationship. The more well dressed and reserved you look makes you look more educated and like a nice girl. I have made these changes for my relationship to some degree but I still have my own individuality entwined with this. I still get called the crazy rock chick on the street and I am well respected by all the locals around me.

I will wear a bikini on the beach and this isn't an issue but I wear a T-shirt over the top - Not to be accepted by Thais though. I'm ginger and ridiculously pale. I'm like a milk bottle in a bikini so I wear the T-shirt to stop me getting sun burnt.

Culture changes - I obviously respect the culture of the country I'm in and I would expect anyone to do the same. I wai when I'm supposed to, act respectfully and cover up in religious establishments,

I acknowledge that I am still farang and I know I still get treated differently because I am farang but I only get treated differently by those who don't know me personally. I am accepted as equal amongst my Thai friends.

[NaMah]

For me personally, I have had to make quite a few changes but not huge significant ones.

I want to learn Thai and I am currently learning. If you live in a country where English is not the native language then you might as well make an effort to learn the native language to some degree so you can get by. I don't really do this to be accepted by Thais, more or less for my own benefit of getting by.

The way I dress... I noticed a few of the replies, mostly from men living here in Thailand to be quite shocked and surprised. "Wait. what? Why does how I dress have to come into it?" If you are a woman in Thailand... You have to make changes, it's as simple as that. Maybe not the men but definitely the women. In the UK I was quite an extravagant alternative dresser and whilst I would love to do that here, it just wouldn't be ideal for this climate and also this society. Also if you are in a relationship with a Thai guy they might not say anything but they have an idea of how they would want you to dress. In other words, no mid- drift showing, no see through tops, no low cleavage type tops, wear skirts which are not too short and if you are wearing a skirt - wear shorts underneath. Your Thai boyfriend wants to show you off with pride and not like you're some hooker on his arm. Thai men consider Thai hookers a lower class and no one wants their girlfriend to look like that if they're in a respectable relationship. The more well dressed and reserved you look makes you look more educated and like a nice girl. I have made these changes for my relationship to some degree but I still have my own individuality entwined with this. I still get called the crazy rock chick on the street and I am well respected by all the locals around me.

I will wear a bikini on the beach and this isn't an issue but I wear a T-shirt over the top - Not to be accepted by Thais though. I'm ginger and ridiculously pale. I'm like a milk bottle in a bikini so I wear the T-shirt to stop me getting sun burnt.

Culture changes - I obviously respect the culture of the country I'm in and I would expect anyone to do the same. I wai when I'm supposed to, act respectfully and cover up in religious establishments,

I acknowledge that I am still farang and I know I still get treated differently because I am farang but I only get treated differently by those who don't know me personally. I am accepted as equal amongst my Thai friends.

Language: I plan to work very hard on this. I may spend the entire first year studying Thai and I'm determined to read and write. When I was married to a Thai woman and dating them in the US I learned to speak very quickly but I've forgotten probably 80% of what I knew because I haven't been around Thai people since the 80s. I think this is the greatest tool needed to assimilate and meet the right people.

Clothing: I usually dress as casual as everyone else at work but have a reputation for dressing to the nines if I'm going to be presenting material at a meeting or if I'm going to have contact with the customer or receive an award or something like that. It doesn't kill me to put on a shirt and tie and wear a proper jacket if the occasion calls for it. In Thailand I'll wear long pants and a decent shirt and and shoes if I have to go to immigration or get a drivers license or go to the doctor or a wat etc. Same if I'm dating a girl and am going to meet her family, at least until they insist that I relax lol.

Culture: Maybe some overconfidence on my part but I usually integrate deeply into whatever society I'm living in. I'm comfortable being the only westerner around and I think I'll be ok in Thailand even if I end up in some remote village. I do need to be taught when to wai and quite a few other traditions and practices that I never learned from thais here in the US. I'm hoping I'll pick up alot of that knowledge when I'm attending language school. I made quite a few Thai friends here in southern california when I was in my 20s and 30s and even used to go out clubbing with a group of thai guys. A thai friend of mine used to own a restaraunt in Los Angeles and I always sat at the communal table near the kitchen where his family and friends sat. He used to bet on basketball games so that table would always have a couple of bookies and other "interesting" types present and I got along ok with them as well. I honestly just like Thai people.