How Hard Are You Prepared To Work . . .

[onthemoon]

I have not made and will not make any preparation for the Thais, thank you.

You must have reasons for living in Thailand that do not include living with Thais. Would you like to share with us?

[onthemoon]

What are we talking about? I am here for my benefit, not anybody else's.

...and you are honest. As long as you are not hurting anyone (and your post does not suggest so), I guess that's OK too.

I personally think you are missing a lot, but that's your decision of course.

[atyclb]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

Unfortunately you have a Western face , Taking it as you are not from Thailand and not Asian, The problem is education, even the children call you Faland, they grow up being taught to be institutionally racist by the Thai government, and there parents Falang cannot buy land , double pricing, ext, ext.

Am not here to change their society. I did learn to speak read and write simply because it is NORMAL to have some command of the language of the country you live in as I have a low interest in depending on "guide women" The vast majority of the population thinks inside the box due to the education system. I have Thai friends similar to friends I'd have anywhere. We have things in common such as interests, hobbies, travel. Most of them have studied and/or lived abroad, and most are coincidently high society because sadly and realistically those are usually the ones that have the opportunity to think outside the box. My friends are humble and don't fit the narratives seen on this forum about superficiality. They do not like Emporium but we rather enjoy Big C, Chinatown markets, and Ikea. Not sure where the OP got his perceptions from but you can find many affluent people shopping at Chatuchack and JJ mall.

When The ASEAN countries begin to freely compete/work in Thailand you may see an effort for Thais to be accepted by their neighbor countries. This would mean a real effort to think outside the box, and become a competent society. Perhaps it would take a miracle.

Edited February 5, 2012 by atyclb

[TAWP]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

Facts and experience?

[TAWP]

Some posters mention that we want immigrants back home to integrate into our countries, learn the language etc.

That is a truth with modification.

In my home-country immigrants and even wives of some old fella that brought a bar-girl back home is entitled to social welfare checks, for doing very little. One of those little things needed to be done is trying to apply for jobs and learning the language - via free language courses - to show an intent. And even this requirement, to get free handouts, is being opposed by some immigrants.

Well, let me know when the government here will start giving me 50k/month for learning Thai and I might give it a higher prio. Until then, if a person can work in another country using their first, second or third language, it is of none of my concern and I will not request them to learn the local language.

[tombkk]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

Facts and experience?

I'd be interested to learn what facts makes one culture superior to another. And why one would live in a culture one considers inferior.

[Jingthing]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

Facts and experience?

I'd be interested to learn what facts makes one culture superior to another. And why one would live in a culture one considers inferior.

I find your question odd and irrelevant actually. Very few westerners move to Thailand to become Thai or to become Thai citizens. Thus, moving here isn't in any imaginable way the same kind of commitment, on EITHER side, that say a Thai person moving to America to pursue citizenship would be. Edited February 5, 2012 by Jingthing

[xthAi76s]

To answer the OP's question(s), I am willing to work as hard as required to carry on successful business operations here in Thailand, so long as this doesn't compromise my own personal ideals/character too negatively.

We are here to exploit opportunity, and that's really it. Well, perhaps enjoy some different foods. I am not in the least interested in Thai culture just as I was not in the least interested in my own culture in the US. We are very high on the individuality index, and the group, tribal, family first stuff simply doesn't suit us at all. We find these prehistoric concepts silly in modern times where we don't need 'protection' granted by these various, nebulous groups.

I do plan to learn Thai language as it makes sense for me to support my professional goals. I do disagree with you, tombkk, however, that one cannot really learn the language without specific effort to learn the culture (if that is what you implied). I plan to do just that, and, having lived in the US (immigrant capital of the world), I have encountered many, many people over time who have learned the language and much less about the culture. Culture and language are often very much intertwined, but one need not make specific effort to learn culture if his/her goal is language fluency. You won't EVER catch me in a temple or going to some other superstitious event, but I can assure you that I will speak as fluently as required for me to communicate effectively here with people connected to my business dealings. Other people, I'm generally not so interested in talking to.

Thai culture and American culture, in particular, don't mix quite so well, so yes, I'm willing to work rather hard (to be accepted enough) to be financially successful, but not any harder.

Edited February 5, 2012 by ThailandMan

[TackyToo]

It's not as far-fetched as you suggest since it has happened to people before. I'll admit that, in most instances, one is unlikely to turfed out offically but upsetting the wrong Thai can have you in a world of hurt that might have you on a plane anyway. Still, I did italicse the word "could".

Sorry but you don't know a thing about me so your flippant remark that I "obviously don't know Thai people and how it works here" won't be dignified with a defensive response.

People with education, professional skills, respect for other people and nature, obeying laws, a true sense of democracy, with an acceptable level of superstition, lack of greediness and who don’t believe the host with the most is always of higher social and moral standard, etc…

Why should they downgrade because of their current location? Btw, who outside the country adores the most stressed term of “Thainess” (one that even 99% of the locals cannot explain) if he/she is not brainwashed and ordered to do so?

I would expect these “you live here- you must become one of us or go home your country ambitions” in Singapoor, where the local media beat on this drum every week.

You wrote: “Sorry but you don't know a thing about me…” is that your real problem? You won’t change that by asking other people to be holier than the pope.

[atyclb]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

Facts and experience?

I'd be interested to learn what facts makes one culture superior to another. And why one would live in a culture one considers inferior.

Perhaps he meant to use the term "different" "more just" society. Many live in thailand to retire, for fun, for lower cost of living, easier like, etc etc.

Some societies impose accountability, rule of law, education that trains the mind "how to think", significantly more just social assistance, taking safety standards seriously, sentencing rich criminals to prison terms, firing and/or jailing corrupt police and politicians and corporate staff, equal rights without regard to race, skin color, etc etc etc. and not to mention more consistent reliability including organizations, and businesses that hold themselves out to be on "international standard" but fall woefully short.

Edited February 5, 2012 by atyclb

[Moonrakers]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

I think time and time again foreigners here see the actions of Thai people and instantly brand it as a culture thing. They then use these 'observations' to either defend them or attack them: Pushing into queues, speaking loudly, interrupting conversations, aggression by Thai males, not knocking on doors, 'selling' daughters to the highest bidder..... and so on.

All things to which people say: 'Oh, they have a terrible culture', or, 'If you don't like the culture, go home'

Thing is though, such things often have very little to do with the actual culture and are often isolated cases anyway. Rather it is the ignorant/greedy acts of certain individuals and the observer is unable or unwilling to make the differentiation.

I suspected that KarenBravo has experienced a Thai person pushing in the queue, or something similar, and decided from that that her 'culture' is superior.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Moonrakers

[xthAi76s]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

I think time and time again foreigners here see the actions of Thai people and instantly brand it as a culture thing. They then use these 'observations' to either defend them or attack them: Pushing into queues, speaking loudly, interrupting conversations, aggression by Thai males, not knocking on doors, 'selling' daughters to the highest bidder..... and so on.

All things to which people say: 'Oh, they have a terrible culture', or, 'If you don't like the culture, go home'

Thing is though, such things often have very little to do with the actual culture and are often isolated cases anyway. Rather it is the ignorant/greedy acts of certain individuals and the observer is unable or unwilling to make the differentiation.

I suspected that KarenBravo has experienced a Thai person pushing in the queue, or something similar, and decided from that that her 'culture' is superior.

And, then you have the 'other side of the coin' where people truly believe things like 1) all cultures are equal and have equal values and 2) all people are created equal and the like. Moral relativism.

For me, I've witnessed a preponderance of personal evidences that suggest to me (not that average Thai people are bad or inferior) but that average Thai people are not likely capable to understand/respect many of the core concepts and values that shape my personality. And, that's fine because this is their country, and I am indeed a guest. However, my best defense against them is to avoid as many as possible.

[Moonrakers]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

I think time and time again foreigners here see the actions of Thai people and instantly brand it as a culture thing. They then use these 'observations' to either defend them or attack them: Pushing into queues, speaking loudly, interrupting conversations, aggression by Thai males, not knocking on doors, 'selling' daughters to the highest bidder..... and so on.

All things to which people say: 'Oh, they have a terrible culture', or, 'If you don't like the culture, go home'

Thing is though, such things often have very little to do with the actual culture and are often isolated cases anyway. Rather it is the ignorant/greedy acts of certain individuals and the observer is unable or unwilling to make the differentiation.

I suspected that KarenBravo has experienced a Thai person pushing in the queue, or something similar, and decided from that that her 'culture' is superior.

And, then you have the 'other side of the coin' where people truly believe things like 1) all cultures are equal and have equal values and 2) all people are created equal and the like. Moral relativism.

For me, I've witnessed a preponderance of personal evidences that suggest to me (not that average Thai people are bad or inferior) but that average Thai people are not likely capable to understand/respect many of the core concepts and values that shape my personality. And, that's fine because this is their country, and I am indeed a guest. However, my best defense against them is to avoid as many as possible.

That just suggests incompatibility. Not inferiority/superiority.

[xthAi76s]

<snip due to quotes limitation>

That just suggests incompatibility. Not inferiority/superiority.

Right, and the reason I do not feel free to state which values are inferior/superior is simply because I am not a scholar, and I've not devoted enough time and energy to the topic to feel comfortable having an affirmative response. However, 'in my heart of hearts', ...

[Moonrakers]

<snip due to quotes limitation>

That just suggests incompatibility. Not inferiority/superiority.

Right, and the reason I do not feel free to state which values are inferior/superior is simply because I am not a scholar, and I've not devoted enough time and energy to the topic to feel comfortable having an affirmative response. However, 'in my heart of hearts', ...

I do agree about 'the other side of the coin' though.

There are those that will defend Thailand and the Thai culture at all costs and nobody should criticise any Thai, regardless of their actions.

I prefer to just stick by: Some people are good, some aren't.

[puipuitom]

I buy food products - amoung from other tropical countries - from Thailands since 1977, I lived in Thailand from 1993-95, and have my own import company into EU since then. My experience: all Thais see you ONLY and ONLY as a potential target to swindle money out. When I can find TODAY alternatives, my last parts of business also will be switched away to other origins TODAY.

They NEVER stand behind their contracts, promises, always have excuses, always farang must understand their way, and compromise. Never find a way to solve a problem, always waiting for a farang to find out, so they can copy, copy, and copy

[Briggsy]

Rather than the OP's ramblings, just take the short cut and join a golf club.

[kurnell]

What are we talking about? I am here for my benefit, not anybody else's.

...and you are honest. As long as you are not hurting anyone (and your post does not suggest so), I guess that's OK too.

I personally think you are missing a lot, but that's your decision of course.

Pray tell, what am I missing??

[letitbe]

not at all im perfectly happy to be odd ball forang in our thai only village with my Thai wife and children. Im sure they dont really want to know me or are interested. In fact most thais are not really interested in anyone but their immediate family unless they think they can make a buck out of it or its for show or to cowtow to those higher than themselves or try and lord over those lower than themselves. Im obviously referring to non urban Thais non educated which represent the vast majority. Their not even interested in who runs the country or village or tambon except to get standard payoff for their vote or support or in case of village politics to be in with local chiefs who have control of government money to hand out favours etc. A generalisation ill admit but after 16+ years living here perfectly happily its what ive observed. My thai wife having come from slums and poor family and also having visited many western countries always says Thais in general are not very nice people or most of them and that applies to from rich to the poor. Their are exceptions but not that many.

[onthemoon]

I buy food products - amoung from other tropical countries - from Thailands since 1977, I lived in Thailand from 1993-95, and have my own import company into EU since then. My experience: all Thais see you ONLY and ONLY as a potential target to swindle money out. When I can find TODAY alternatives, my last parts of business also will be switched away to other origins TODAY.

They NEVER stand behind their contracts, promises, always have excuses, always farang must understand their way, and compromise. Never find a way to solve a problem, always waiting for a farang to find out, so they can copy, copy, and copy

The moment you say "all Thai" (or "all Europeans" or "all whatever nationality") I know that this cannot be true. But it can well be that you mean all Thais that you know.

I feel very sorry for you that somehow you managed to attract only the rotten apples (so to speak), which certainly exist. I, on the other hand, try to understand their ways, have never been swindled out of a contract and have had lots of positive experience. I did get cheated by fellow-farangs in Thailand though, but that's stuff for another topic.

I think you are a good example why it is important to understand the Thais in order to have positive experiences with them. Your contribution is valuable, thanks.

[tombkk]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

I think time and time again foreigners here see the actions of Thai people and instantly brand it as a culture thing. They then use these 'observations' to either defend them or attack them: Pushing into queues, speaking loudly, interrupting conversations, aggression by Thai males, not knocking on doors, 'selling' daughters to the highest bidder..... and so on.

All things to which people say: 'Oh, they have a terrible culture', or, 'If you don't like the culture, go home'

Thing is though, such things often have very little to do with the actual culture and are often isolated cases anyway. Rather it is the ignorant/greedy acts of certain individuals and the observer is unable or unwilling to make the differentiation.

I suspected that KarenBravo has experienced a Thai person pushing in the queue, or something similar, and decided from that that her 'culture' is superior.

That's possible, but let's not speculate. I am waiting for KarenBravo to reply.

[onthemoon]

What are we talking about? I am here for my benefit, not anybody else's.

...and you are honest. As long as you are not hurting anyone (and your post does not suggest so), I guess that's OK too.

I personally think you are missing a lot, but that's your decision of course.

Pray tell, what am I missing??

I can't tell you in one paragraph. The main reason I live in Thailand are the Thai people. Both at home and in the office I am the only farang, most of my friends are Thais, but maybe it's just me.

What do I like about the Thais? - I'll write that book when I retire.

What do I not like about the Thais? - There are some things, but they are less important for me. Obviously, because otherwise I wouldn't be living here, would I?

[onthemoon]

not at all im perfectly happy to be odd ball forang in our thai only village with my Thai wife and children. Im sure they dont really want to know me or are interested. In fact most thais are not really interested in anyone but their immediate family unless they think they can make a buck out of it or its for show or to cowtow to those higher than themselves or try and lord over those lower than themselves. Im obviously referring to non urban Thais non educated which represent the vast majority. Their not even interested in who runs the country or village or tambon except to get standard payoff for their vote or support or in case of village politics to be in with local chiefs who have control of government money to hand out favours etc. A generalisation ill admit but after 16+ years living here perfectly happily its what ive observed. My thai wife having come from slums and poor family and also having visited many western countries always says Thais in general are not very nice people or most of them and that applies to from rich to the poor. Their are exceptions but not that many.

May I ask you whether you speak Thai and mix with the villagers? Or do you speak English with your wife and she filters everything you know about the village?

No, I don't mean any offence, please don't misunderstand me. You have been there for 16 years, that's a long time and I am sure you know pretty well what is going on in the village. I just want to understand the basis of your judgement a bit better. Thanks.

[geriatrickid]

I was hoping this thread would also provide some tips in the area of relationships

How can I get my love interest to really accept me? Try as I might, I don't make much headway. Why is it I get the pajama clad rolled up in a blanket that won't let me put the AC lower than 25 type and you guys score amazing partners?

I've cut my toenails, I bathe regularly, I buy the gifts that say "thinking of you" and still...... we end up watching shows on TV with lots of gong sounds and the ubiquitous shirtless fat guy and a midget engaged in hijinks or a soap opera with pretty boys with perfect hair and abs so I am told, oooooooo if you go to the gym maybe you can look like that *sigh*.

[tombkk]

<snip due to quotes limitation>

That just suggests incompatibility. Not inferiority/superiority.

Right, and the reason I do not feel free to state which values are inferior/superior is simply because I am not a scholar, and I've not devoted enough time and energy to the topic to feel comfortable having an affirmative response. However, 'in my heart of hearts', ...

I am a scholar (believe it or not), and I posit that there is no inferior or superior culture, and that Moonraker is right in pointing out that there is a compatibility issue here. Core values are in integral part of any culture, and I don't blame ThailandMan either, he is not at fault as he only described that the Thai culture and his own culture have different core values.

Now, that doesn't mean that I'm right. It only means that I have read a lot (and written a little) about cultures, and a scholar is a life-long learner. As I said, we are waiting for clarification from a poster who said that her culture is superior but has been silent since. She might have a point neither of us is aware of.

[SlyAnimal]

I try to interstate into Thai society, IMO it's the right thing to do (particularly as I'm reasonably young but intend on living here for a long time). So I dress nicely, in slacks, shirt and tie for work, in jeans and a nice shirt/tshirt on the weekends. Its not that hot most of the time anyway once you climitise a lottle. I like to spend money wisely so love big c etc, although would be lost without my iphone or other toys. I've learnt a little Thai, nothing to rave over but not bad for a little over 1yr, as a result I can usually get by if they speak Thai not Lao.

I try to integrate because I think about what I used to think about asians coming to Nz, where we would have no respect for them if they didn't try to learn our language and culture. We didnt expect them to be doing the haka or putting on rugby boots, we just wanted them to try and understand/accept our culture and try to get some friends from Nz, not just hang out with their other asian friends all the time

In general I find Thai culture etc nice in some ways, frustrating in others. Some parts of me resist the inability of many Thai to make organised plans in advance etc, part of me feels liberated by it. I curse at oncoming drivers who push me onto the shoulder of the road, or who run red lights or dont indicate, but I also sometimes force incoming motorcycles onto the shoulder and run red lights (but I'm sure I do it "safer" lol).

Thai culture and habits are just different, often less logical to us, but then our values are different, we've grown up to be more cautious etc

Also with rudeness by Thai people, it's just the same as in farang countries. You have some good ppl and some bad ppl. Often I will complain to my Thai friends about "Thai style" because of an incident ive had which I disliked. They'll usually point out to me that it was actually also very impolite by Thai standards too but that some ppl want to try and take advantage of farang or are just &lt;deleted&gt; to everyone. Occasionally there are things which are simply cultural differences, but usually it's simply bad ppl being rude.

[kurnell]

What are we talking about? I am here for my benefit, not anybody else's.

...and you are honest. As long as you are not hurting anyone (and your post does not suggest so), I guess that's OK too.

I personally think you are missing a lot, but that's your decision of course.

Pray tell, what am I missing??

I can't tell you in one paragraph. The main reason I live in Thailand are the Thai people. Both at home and in the office I am the only farang, most of my friends are Thais, but maybe it's just me.

What do I like about the Thais? - I'll write that book when I retire.

What do I not like about the Thais? - There are some things, but they are less important for me. Obviously, because otherwise I wouldn't be living here, would I?

Yeah, I have 2 farangs and 10 Thais in my office and all Thais at home. Again, what amI missing?

[FrankieDimes]

What do you mean by 'accepted'? Basically, If a person does not accept you for the reason you have indicated it shows them in a negative light and therefor negates the need to be accepted by them. Acceptance should be based on more important qualities like compassion for your fellow man. I am unsure of your meaning of acceptance therefore I can not truely respond. As long as I am treated fairly as a human, I'm ok with that. How a person truly feels in their heart is their business. As in any society you comply with the norms if possible, such as wearing appropriate attire to the appropriate venue. But to look down or outcast a person because of their looks, where they shop or because they are different shows the individual during the outcasting in a negative light.

[StreetCowboy]

I was hoping this thread would also provide some tips in the area of relationships

How can I get my love interest to really accept me? Try as I might, I don't make much headway. Why is it I get the pajama clad rolled up in a blanket that won't let me put the AC lower than 25 type and you guys score amazing partners?

I've cut my toenails, I bathe regularly, I buy the gifts that say "thinking of you" and still...... we end up watching shows on TV with lots of gong sounds and the ubiquitous shirtless fat guy and a midget engaged in hijinks or a soap opera with pretty boys with perfect hair and abs so I am told, oooooooo if you go to the gym maybe you can look like that *sigh*.

When the soap operas and comedies are on, you're supposed to be out under the banyan tree with ice in your beer and your tee-shirt rolled up over your beer gut, talking about English football with your mates. Maybe you're not trying hard enough to integrate.

I'd like to be able to get 'boing!' noises into my reports... I do sometimes point at charts, though,,,

SC

[KarenBravo]

I came to the conclusion that I came from a superior culture to the local one, so, I live by those values.

I learned to speak Thai as I saw that it was in my interests to do so.

You come from a superior culture? Wow. I am speechless.

But I am intrigued: What makes you think so?

No problem, very easy.

Which is the better culture? One that values truth over saving face (pride), or, one that values saving face over truth?

Which is the better culture? One that values substance over appearances, or, one that values appearance over substance?